SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Jan 1993 Volume 18 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: Television - Deep Space Nine (9 msgs) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Jan 93 16:54:00 GMT From: SCOLVIN@clemson.clemson.edu ("scolvin") Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Deep Space Nine I was on break, so I got these letters on Star Trek NG AND DS9 after they were a couple of days old, but I feel like throwing my hat into the ring. First of all, the comments about the things being unbelieveable: this is science fiction and I think you are all losing the fact that WE DON"T KNOW EVERYTHING!!!! Just because we can not live or exist without something or even with something does not mean that other races cannot. Isn't that the whole notion of science fiction? And the comments about the stupid fake-gun trick and some of the other things. If they had just sat there, the DS9 would have been destroyed so they had to do something to bid time. Yes, I admit that some of it was hokey. The time thing got OLD after about the first 20 seconds, but I think the problem was that they had a 90 minutes show and they made it a 2 hour show. And another thing, this is only the first show and if you look at the premiere of TNG it was totally different from the plots they usually had and also THEY WERE UNPOLISHED! Imagine that! What I am saying, is give it time and open your minds a little bit because the impossible is sometimes possible. Mark Helvie MHELVIE@clemson.clemson.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 93 16:40:23 GMT From: larocqu@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (JOHN LAROCQUE) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: ST:DSN - the ULTIMATE COSMIC RIP-OFF! Everybody has probably seen the pilot by now, but I am going to treat the ST:DSN premiere as a SPOILER anyways: This show is the greatest rip-off of SF movies and tv shows ever. Every other scene reminded me of other SF shows. So here goes. 1. This show rips off from ST:TNG. Yes, that's right. It's Star Trek. Why shouldn't it? I thought about at least a dozen ST:TNG episodes, including that Borg 2-parter reintroduced in the opener, and the space amoeba inside a human being episode. By the way, that concept was ripped off (with style and originality) from a Buck Rogers episode where Wilma's boyfriend is a symbiote - his head and his body were two species acting together. Way cool. 2. 2001: A Space Odyssey. The entire wormhole sequence was a half minute version of Dave's ride to Saturn. And when he landed on that planetoid in the wormhole and gets knocked out - that WHOLE scene harkens back to when Dave lands and remembers his entire life experiences. Real neat, except here Captain Sisko actually talks to his captors and explains to God why human beings exist in linear time and have a beginning and an end. The station sort of reminds me of Dave jogging around the circles in his ship. Way cool. 3. Alien Nation. The pimples on that symbiote babe remind me of that one. 4. Star Wars/Indiana Jones. Remember when the Bajoran Dalai Lama sends Sisko on a quest to retrieve the "tears of the prophet". That's the whole plot to IJ: The Temple of Doom. And that casino scene with the alien scene harkened back to the cantina scene on Tatooine. I almost expected Han Solo to pop a laser blast at Greedo here. 5. Battlestar Galactica. Sisko's shuttle side arms reminded me of the much larger Galactica ship. When that shuttle entered the TV screen from the right side, I almost expected Adama to whine about the evil Cylons and the music to the show to start up. Oh, the casino scene also reminded me of the casino on Carillon (where the evil Ovions eat human beings). "Blue Squadron leader to Galactica, over". 6. James Bond. Yes, that whole space station is almost identical to Blofeld's complex in The Spy who Loved Me. (his was undersea, but who cares). And I almost crack up thinking about Moonraker. "Oh James, take me around the world one more time). 7. Terminator II. The shape shifter here morphs just like the T2000. Way cool. 8. Babylon 5. The whole plot stinks of theft here. But this is Star Trek, so expect them to make something original of it all. And there are enough unsolved issues in the premiere to provice many TV hours of enjoyment. Now that Gene is dead, apparently the guys at Paramount are letting their SF influences really show. This premiere has many of them. Say, did anybody watch the Space Rangers premiere. I missed it, but with one person here comparing it to "A-Team in space" I have definitely got to check it out. Bubble gum for the mind, just like V, Battlestar Galactica and the $6 Million Man. I loved them all. Unintelligent SF adventure and proud of it. Unlike Star Trek which is watered down SF adventure, sometimes intelligent plots and lots of soap opera. I like Star Trek too, but am smart enough to admit the series has many flaws (I am getting real tired of the TNG crew and that whole sterile flawless space ship). DSN should give Trek some new life for a few seasons, and allow TNG to die and come back as a movie series after this season. And Captain Sisko is the greatest character - a guy with an attitude. John LaRocque marshall.law@uwo.ca ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 93 18:25:44 GMT From: GGPERRY@nuacvm.acns.nwu.edu (ggreg) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: DS9 was VERY BAD (AMEN) Yes, that's everything connected with Star Trek's major problem: no sf elements (except superficial trappings and setting) in these shows. At least the old series had some interesting concepts and intriguing ideas once in a while: a sense of wonder occasionally. These new shows completely blow. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 93 20:29:00 GMT From: v129j6ed@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (This is F.U.N.) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: ST:DSN - the ULTIMATE COSMIC RIP-OFF! larocqu@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (John Larocque) writes: >Everybody has probably seen the pilot by now, but I am going to treat the >ST:DSN premiere as a SPOILER anyways: > >This show is the greatest rip-off of SF movies and tv shows ever. Every >other scene reminded me of other SF shows. So here goes. Like there has been an original idea in writing for the past how many years? Take a guess... >1. This show rips off from ST:TNG. Yes, that's right. It's Star Trek. Why > shouldn't it? I thought about at least a dozen ST:TNG episodes, > including that Borg 2-parter reintroduced in the opener, and the space > amoeba inside a human being episode. By the way, that concept was > ripped off (with style and originality) from a Buck Rogers episode > where Wilma's boyfriend is a symbiote - his head and his body were two > species acting together. Way cool. Don't blame the writers for the beginning episode, the TNG have been recycling the same three plots for the past three seasons. Can you name how many episodes when Troi is the main character that she either has trouble with her empathy or is possessed (mentally and physically invaded). Don't forget Total Recall's mutant in a mutant. Also, don't forget the Star Trek :TOS episode with the deadly fried flying eggs who use Spock to do some really back special effects work. >4. Star Wars/Indiana Jones. Remember when the Bajoran Dalai Lama sends > Sisko on a quest to retrieve the "tears of the prophet". That's the > whole plot to IJ: The Temple of Doom. And that casino scene with the > alien scene harkened back to the cantina scene on Tatooine. I almost > expected Han Solo to pop a laser blast at Greedo here. Your argument with the cantina scene is really out of line. What did you expect, a homo-sapiens only club med bar or something. It is a FEDERATION OF PLANETS. There should be many races there, especially now. I mean the cantina scene in SW reeks of old Westerns. Don't forget the Buck Rogers casino in space. The point is, that casino/cantina would exist in latter centuries. They should have similiar qualities to them, or they would be not casinoes/bars. I didn't care for the religious quest. >5. Battlestar Galactica. Sisko's shuttle side arms reminded me of the much > larger Galactica ship. When that shuttle entered the TV screen from the > right side, I almost expected Adama to whine about the evil Cylons and > the music to the show to start up. Oh, the casino scene also reminded > me of the casino on Carillon (where the evil Ovions eat human beings). > "Blue Squadron leader to Galactica, over". It is also similiar to the Buck Rogers fighter launcher too. (they were done by the same production team) I have to wonder though, unless you expect the smaller ships to be harriers, how they would be launched from a ship/space station. >6. James Bond. Yes, that whole space station is almost identical to > Blofeld's complex in The Spy who Loved Me. (his was undersea, but who > cares). And I almost crack up thinking about Moonraker. "Oh James, take > me around the world one more time). Too bad Blofeld was never in The Spy Who Loved Me. It was some ocean freak (can't remember his name, but he was forgettable). Maybe Lucas could sue the military. The space shuttle kind of remind me of some of his ships. It seems you are being way too picky on stuff. >7. Terminator II. The shape shifter here morphs just like the T2000. Way > cool. Personally, I think he will turn into Benson for a cameo, eventually. >8. Babylon 5. The whole plot stinks of theft here. But this is Star Trek, > so expect them to make something original of it all. And there are > enough unsolved issues in the premiere to provice many TV hours of > enjoyment. I heard about this, and the evidence seems to fit that description. However, it seems that there are more differences between the show than there are similiarities. Sure they both are in a space station, and they have multiple races there. Those factors should be wiped from your mind. >Now that Gene is dead, apparently the guys at Paramount are letting their >SF influences really show. This premiere has many of them. Say, did >anybody watch the Space Rangers premiere. I missed it, but with one person >here comparing it to "A-Team in space" I have definitely got to check it >out. Great, That means one of the space rangers has a fear of flying in space. What I would like to see is that Paramount and Rick Berman loosen their grip on all Star Trek books, comics, and so forth. That limits different stories. My main example is the 1st DC Star Trek comic book series. When they cancelled it, some of the best writing was taking place, and was cancelled because the made-for-series supporting characters were being given some limelight, and were becoming very interesting. Paramount wanted only the regular seven to be viewed, and the other characters were done away with. >Bubble gum for the mind, just like V, Battlestar Galactica and the $6 >Million Man. I loved them all. Unintelligent SF adventure and proud of it. Don't forget Doctor Who and Blake's Seven.(I hope we don't get a discussion on B7. That would really tick me off) Jef Kolodziej State University of New York at Buffalo 611 LaSalle Ave. Buffalo, NY 14215 (716) 834-2606 v129j6ed@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 93 20:42:48 GMT From: carrie@plasma1.ssl.berkeley.edu (Carrie Roller) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: DS9:I liked it, dammit. Yes, I enjoyed DS9. I thought the show did an excellent job of developing several very complex characters, though many of you appear to feel that they are all rip-offs of someone-or-another. I noticed that most of the postings regarding DS9 were fairly whiny and very often were written by people who are STILL crying about how ST:TNG isn't as good as the original. Get a grip, guys. No one is forcing you to watch. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 93 21:16:39 GMT From: detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu (David De Trolio) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: DS9:I liked it, dammit. carrie@plasma1.ssl.berkeley.edu (Carrie Roller) writes: >Yes, I enjoyed DS9. So did I, it reminded me of the first time I sat and saw "Encounter at Farpoint". >I thought the show did an excellent job of developing several very complex >characters, though many of you appear to feel that they are all rip-offs >of someone-or-another. I was especially impressed in the manner the characters were introduced and the humor in most of them. There is also a serious side to DS9, we will see a great deal of this in the characters from Bajor. Sisko's character has great potential, as does the young (and pretty) actress who is the host body for the Trill called Dax. >I noticed that most of the postings regarding DS9 were fairly whiny and >very often were written by people who are STILL crying about how ST:TNG >isn't as good as the original. Get a grip, guys. No one is forcing you >to watch. I was not on the net when ST:TNG hit the airways, but I do remember many people bitching about how weak the show was and how it could never match up to the original. ST:TNG is a worthy successor to ST:TOS, and ST:DS9 is a welcome addition to the Science Fiction Family. And, as you indicated, if you are not happy with the program, change the channel, I hear there is another attempt at SF TV on CBS. David De Trolio detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 93 22:06:42 GMT From: noah@cad.gatech.edu (Noah White) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: DS9 was very BAD rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes: >7. Stupid fake-guns trick. It's a wonder the cardassians supposedly won > any battles at all against the federation during the war. I agree with all the points you made and something else just popped into my mind: Why would 3 Cardassian _war ships_ just sit around shooting phasers at this huge unmaneuverable space station. I am come on, even I would blow the hell out of it with some torps. Or maybe the tubes jammed on all three ships. Cough, choke....NOT! It was totally lame. Noah White CAE/CAD Lab Staff & USENET Administrator Georgia Institute of Technology noah@cad.gatech.edu ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 93 22:19:45 GMT From: GGPERRY@nuacvm.acns.nwu.edu (ggreg) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: DS9:I liked it, dammit. carrie@plasma1.ssl.berkeley.edu (Carrie Roller) writes: >I thought the show did an excellent job of developing several very complex >characters, though many of you appear to feel that they are all rip-offs >of someone-or-another. > >I noticed that most of the postings regarding DS9 were fairly whiny and >very often were written by people who are STILL crying about how ST:TNG >isn't as good as the original. Get a grip, guys. No one is forcing you >to watch. What are you afraid of criticism or something? Some of us just demand quality sf, not puerile juvenile space opera. I mean, why are there no real sf writers on these ST shows? Why don't they spend some of those millions of dollars on some decent writers? I hear that BABYLON 5 has Harlan Ellison as script editor, and William Gibson among others as writers. Now, there's a concept - using SF writers to write SF tv! Hello Star Trek, hello!?!? And no, I'm not comparing STNG to the old one. Just judging it on its own merits, which is quite unfair to it, I know... ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 93 01:36:26 GMT From: Catherine.Collingwood@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Catherine Collingwood) Reply-to: sf-lovers-tv@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: DS9:I liked it, dammit. GGPERRY@NUACVM.ACNS.NWU.EDU writes: >What are you afraid of criticism or something? Some of us just demand >quality sf, not puerile juvenile space opera. I mean, why are there no >real sf writers on these ST shows? Why don't they spend some of those >millions of dollars on some decent writers? I hear that BABYLON 5 has >Harlan Ellison as script editor, and William Gibson among others as >writers. Now, there's a concept, using SF writers to write SF tv! Hello >Star Trek, hello!?!? If you look at the credits for ST:TNG, the story consultant is Melinda Snodgrass (and has been since the 1st season)... She wrote one of (IMO) the best TOS books - The Tears of the Singers. Maybe you just want to see big name authors and don't realize that there are lots of very good SF writers out there who aren't "big names." The script idea for STIV was also partially developed from a writers' conference. Sorry, you're inaccurate about ST not using SF writers. They have done it for years. >and no, I'm not comparing STNG to the old one. Just judging it on its own >merits, which is quite unfair to it, I know.. Actually, I like STTNG. The old series sometimes got trite and seemed to over- advocate WASP morals to me. While TNG is still noticeably white male Anglo-Saxon at least it's making some strides in all areas but the treatment of women. And if it's so awful, why is it still among the top three syndicated shows? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************