This is a true story. Five years ago I was on a student
exchange program in Thailand doing research. One of the
other American students, a bright and attractive young lady,
was writing a research paper about Prostitution in Thailand.
Her point of view was basically the same as Froggy's,
Mattie's, et al. that prostitution in Thailand was a
phenemonen that involved indentured servitude, female and
child exploitation, and catered primarily to decadent
Western (and Chinese) men. When I asked her how she was
conducting her research, she explained that she was doing it
in the library. I politely suggested that it might be a
good idea to go to a "Go Go Bar", and talk to the women
there about their life and see if it corresponded to her
academic theories. At this point she became somewhat
enraged and told me that she would never NEVER step into
such an establishment. I invite Mattie, Froggy, and all of
their friends to go to a go go bar or a massage parlor and
meet the women who work there and see for how long their
academic theories hold up under the bright glare of the neon
lights, or how long these women are even willing to listen
to Mattie and Froggy. the fact of the matter is the Western
patronage of Prostitution services in Asia is but a blip on
the screen compared to other nationalities. In Thailand the
minimum wage is roughly 200 baht perday. Go go girls and
massage parlors get a fifty percent cut of the "Ka Doo-ah"
literally "body fee", and the tip is all theirs. In Bangkok
a massage parlor fee, on average is 1200 baht, a bar fine is
400 baht. So a woman that services two customers a night at
a Massage Parlor earns 1200 baht, and with an average tip
500, add another thousand, for a grand total of 2200 an
evening, or more than ten times the minimum wage. To add
some perspective on this there are a few brothels with
underage prostitutes who are indentured servants. These,
like most of the underworld activities in Thailand, are
controlled by the police. Prostitution is has been part of
Thai and Asian culture long before the Western sex trade.
And even supposing that Mattie's thesis is correct--that the
Western men that come here are too ugly or undesireable to
"score" in their own country, so what? What is the point?
That they should stay home and suffer so as not to offend
Mattie and Froggy? Do you really believe that no genuine
feelings of affection can occur between a professional and a
customer? These are two human beings coming together in an
intimate situation. I would venture that the majority of
Western men that seek prostitutes in Asia are not primarily
searching for sex, although they may believe that they
are, but are rather searching for companionship. America
and other developed Western countries are often soulless
barren places where it is difficult to connect with other
people. That is why people return to places like Thailand,
where there is still some human warmth. If it makes any
difference, and I don't think it has any bearing on my
arguments at all, I don't use prostitutes because I am
happily married, don't feel the need at this point in my
life, can't spare the money, and my wife would torture me
with guilt if I did.
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Bar girls may earn 10 times an evening the minimum wage.
But there is still the other side of the coin or the story. Most of
the bar girls may start their trade for so many reasons - poverty
is the most cited and accepted - but mostly they remain in the
trade by choice. They have earned so-called easy and
comfortable living and they would not leave for other kind of
job,hoping that one day they would earn and save enough
and retire to the country, if Aids don't get them first.
Not all young Thai girls from the rural area choose this way out
of their poverty. When you walk the street of Bangkok or any
big cities, try to look at the construction workers whose job is
one of the most dangerous and back-breaking. Look carefully
and you will see that many of them are young girls. Some are
pretty enough for Patpong or Nana and they could down tools
any day and walk over to the mamasan asking for the job. They
don't. Why? It's their choice. Western researchers who come
to do the thesis on Prostitution in Thailand would gain some
insight if they spend time with girls in other profession and hear
the other side of the story. I would be happy to help. Just e-
mail me.
Hear hear, finally some intelligent comment on the subject.
Expat argues very well that the reasons why are not so
shortsighted as some people like Mattie and Froggie think,
Wichannee's other side of the coin argues for the reasons
why to enter and not to enter into the business.
Main lesson : life's not fair, let's try to allow people to
make the most of life without hurting and judging each
other too much.
And this applies to both parties partaking in prostitution
as well as their critics.
So how many employers care about minimum wages in Thailand
anyway?? Most of the girls that work in the bars etc seem to
come from the North East (Buriram, Surin etc) and let me
tell you that the going rate for 8 back breaking hours in
the rice fields, rain or shine, is currently between 100
and 130 Baht a day. Around $US3. The people who go to work
in Bangkok building sites get around 150 baht daily at the
moment. Monthly wage for a teenage girl in a hotel/shop is
around 3000 Baht. About US$80. I know this for a fact
because I live in Thailand most of the year. Having a young
Thai wife, and being in Pattaya a lot, I have a lot
of contact with bar girls, visiting them at home in
Pattaya with my wife, at their places of work and sometimes
at their village homes. Frankly, people like 'Mattie' and
'Froggie' make me want to vomit. No-one forces these girls
into working in bars, they do it out of choice. (The poor
souls drugged/kidnapped and kept locked in brothels are
obviously the exception and deserve any help anyone can give
them. And yes, it's often police who run these brothels.)
Fair enough, if the girls stay at home for 100 baht a day,
(if there is any work for them)they live in what we
westerners would call poverty, but then so do most of the
rest of their families and they survive ok. No, they see the
girls who come back to the villages to visit families,
wearing gold and nice clothes and realise what kind of money
they could be making themselves if they went to Pattaya etc.
Thats why most bar girls in Pattaya seem to come from
Buriram/Surin etc. Imagine it, a comparison could be an
English girl living in darkest rural Cornwall with no job or
money, any man she marries locally will expect her to work
in the fields for years and will probably womanise and drink
a lot, probably beat her occasionally if she angers him.
Then she sees what her friend does.... Goes to London, gets
taken out every night by handsome millionares (believe me,
they don't go with anyone they don't want to in
Pattaya,unless offered too much dosh to refuse and theres
plenty of young, handsome foreign men there a lot of the
year) earns $US1500 a week, gets bought gold and nice
clothes, stays in nice hotels etc and to cap it all may well
find a husband to take her to Europe to live. Most of my
wifes friends lives seem to be as I've described.
Sure, some of girls get old and disease ridden but thats
like some of us western people who don't plan for the future
re pensions etc, just live for today until the awful day
comes when it's too late.
And as regards people at home thinking badly of them working
in bars, if they even care, they just say they work in a
shop or hotel.
I wonder how many young english girls would succumb to the
temptation, especially if prostitution was looked at in the
same way as in Asia.
I wonder................
Paul
I too have married a Thai women and she has NEVER been
involed in prostitution. I agree with everything you say
because as you I have lived in Thailand and have seen most
of life there and have been most places. Now I too wish to
go and live there permenantly, it's just a much more happier
and fuller life when I stay there. Back here in Australia I
get sick and tired of hearing our people continually
degrading and bitching about our migrants, they just seem
to blame them for everything. If you don't believe me just
check out the aus.politics newsgroup. Good luck Paul and
maybe I'll run into you in Pattaya some time.
Bill
Paul has made many good points. You do hear about cases of
young or underaged women being forced into this, however
many people CHOOSE to do this. It's unfortunate that there
aren't more alternatives where they can make the same kind
of money. There are a lot of good organizations spreading
the word about HIV/AIDS and other STD's and Thailand has
admitted, long ago, that there is a problem, something many
countries refuse to admit. I beieve women going into
prostitution are a bit wiser about this issue. If they
were smart, they would get out before their bodies are "old
and disease ridden". Thailand's economy, along with many
Asian countries, has experienced the high times and the low
times. Having lived there for two years, I found that many
people have become as materialistic as most westerners. If
this is how they want to make their money, so be it. It's
their choice. Unfortunately, some of them don't have a
choice and I deplore the fact that some of these women are
'sold' into it. My five baht.
I agree with the original post and most of the other
comments. When you live in Thailand the truth of the matter
is all around you. Too bad that the western media and
academics are too shallow to do their own research. It is
pretty obvious what western women would be doing if born
into a third world economy--just check out the former USSR
citizens that "hook-up" to the survival game.
But also the same old story. Responses;
Expat Rat; offend me? Their postings don't offend me, they
annoy me. I am not easily offended. I am not, as you seem to
have cast me, a puritan by any means. I have been to a
massage parlour and, in fact, have lead a fairly interesting
life. I am not naive, having left home at 15 I am now 40. I
find it exceptionally difficult to believe that anyone doing
a thesis about people would do it in a library - if so they
wouldnt' pass I can assure you, so I think this is a made up
story.
Paul; so you have a "young thai wife" - that's nice for you.
So what? Yes its all so easy isn't it? You are a man, so
how the hell can you associate with what its like to be a
female prostitute? Have you ever had to sell your ass? No I
doubt it - its alright for them isn't it, as long as its not
you. I just disagree with you on the basic premise of what
constitutes choice. I don't see economic hardship as choice.
Paul; why would you negate that your Thai wife would have
ever been involved in prostitution? I wouldn't have made
that connection. Don't agree totally with someone based on
where they say they have lived - that's dumb.
And Gary baby; well that's it isn't it. "What western women
would do...." We still put down and sell women. Not men.
Just women. Don't you get it?
All you men on this page just can not make the distinction
that you will never be in this position. You are safe to
posture on this issue, you and your sons, (and hopefully
your daughters)won't be effected. You are the users of the
service and never will be expected to become the servicers.
Safe, smug, western thinking guys.
Paul,
The peer pressure in the villages may send the girls to Pattaya
as you have experienced. Another side of the story is that I
have a maid at home who is from Surin -a pretty enough girl
who could have gone to Pattaya on the first bus out of the
eastern terminal. Her choice is to earn her living the best way
she can wsith her unskilled,uneducated background and her
choices are limited to be in the range of being a house maid,a
construction worker, a factory hand,etc. She considers herself
lucky to get a housemaid job, earning Bht 4,000.-a month and
with her free time she took the external education programme
provided by the government to advance her career and even
asks me to teach her to cook so that she may become a
housekeeper one day. My point is that the maid has her
choice to succumb under peer pressure from her service
trade friends and follow suit. She didn't. Why? Because she
believes that her life should gravitate in another direction.
There are millions of poor girls out there, if given a choice and
adequate education or basic training,who would prefer other
kind of job even if it pay s less. Contrary to your popular belief,
some dirt-poor girls still possess what we call 'self-respect'or
'dignity'. Our culture,no matter how materialistic it has become,
still looks down on the sersvice trade as 'undignified'.
Ironic,isn't it?
.
...have you ever been a prostitute? If not, your last posting is rather hypocritical.
I have not been a prostitute, but last night I spent four hours fighting my way out of what was nearly a date-rape situation. Today, the guy had the nerve to call and appologise, like that was going to fix things.
So, I'm not in the mood to defend men's rights with regards to sex right now, but even so, I believe a woman gets the right to choose her profession. If you take away her right to say "yes", you're just as bad as that bastard last night who tried to take away my right to say "no".
think about it.
This thread contains some truth, but many misconceptions. I
used to do HIV reserach in Thailand and got to know some of
the sex workers through friends who worked with NGOs.
The women who work with Westerners tend to be from the NE
and tend to come from "broken marriages". There isn't much
peer pressure. They make a "good living", but the money
isn't as regular as some posters suggest and when you get
used to having "big money" come in once awhile, you spend
it. Many women come in with the intention of making a pile
and going home. Most don't. The Israeli sociologist Erik
Cohen has written extensively about this having done alot
field work with the women and their clients. There are
probably many more japanese and Korean customers than
Westerners. Many Westerners are oil rig workers who live in
the Middle east or other rather marginal guys. Others are
"normal" business travelers or expats.
The indentured servitude occurs in the low cost brothels
that serve working class Thai men. These women make up most
of the trade and come mostly from Northern thailand or
nearby countries. The women from Burma, etc. tend to be
deceived and coerced. The Thais know what they are getting
into. The amount of social pressure to join the trade
varies. It's hard to draw firm generalization about the
thai women and how much "choice" they actually ahve and how
much poverty exists in their families--in many cases their
labor is buying tvs not helping families meet susbsistance.
There are other kinds of indentured servitude besides sex
work---this is a country that has "labor unions" or sorts
(company unions actually), but no real labor movement or
protection for workers.
Prostitution is, in a certain sense, no more a part of Thai
culture than any other. We don't talk much about it in the
US, but there are is quite a bit of it here and, as in
Thailand, there are grey areas, like part-timers and those
who engage in "survival sex".
Many women conciously choose not to do sex work although
they could make a lot more than they do as construction
workers, maids, etc. The values concerning sex work vary,
even in the areas where most sex workers originate.
The women in the sex trade are not, for the most part,
inncocent waifs and such assumptions are as insulting as
the assumption that choosing sex work is no different for a
Thai woman than choosing to be a cashier a Central Dept
Store. One need not visit a go-go bar to get this picture.
One can also go to EMPOWER or one of the other groups that
work with sex workers.
No one has mentioned male sex workers, but they exist, too.
they are young men from poor areas in the NE and North.
Their circumstances are similar to those of women who work
in tourist-oriented venues. It's a bit sexist to forget
about them.
Bravo Rich, you have obviously done your homework. Some
other less dignified points for Froggy and her gaggle, some
of these women actually enjoy getting laid frequently and
feel they have found the ideal profession. I would wonder
Froggy, Mattie, et al, if you would be equally "annoyed" by
an obese Western woman who travels to Egypt ot other
Islamic/Middle Eastern country to get HER rocks off. It
doesn't bother me in the least, because I think human beings
are entitled to to a Basic Human Right to be touched, loved
and bonked, regardless of their physical attractiveness.
Could it be that what bothers you, deep down, Froggy, Mattie
et al., is that seeing men, some unattractive, receiving
attention from females outside of their own race/nation
somehow makes you feel that your own sexual value is
diminished? Would you prefer that males, especially
undesireable males, be desperate pathetic creatures so that
you can fully exercise your Feminine Power over them? In
regard to your claim that my story about the American
researcher was made up, No, I don't make up stories Froggy.
But your accusation seems to be consistent with your habit
to disregard any facts that do not agree with your
pre-conceived notions. I apologize for my strong language,
Froggy and Mattie, and realize that you are both intelligent
and probably very kind people. Once again, my sincere
invitation to visit a Go-Go Bar/massage parlor. I am also
willing to take you there myself--I work very close to
several.
Thanks for opening the door. I've been reading and sometimes participating in fruitless
"discussions" about this topic innumerous times. One point nobody (especially not women)
understands is that it goes the other way, too. You ("Rich") are mentioning young boys in Thailand.
Let me introduce another fact into this debate; the female sex-trips (on a HUGE scale) from
Europe to, mainly, Gambia in NE Africa. It is EXACTLY a mirror (or opposite if you like) to what
"Mattie" et consortes are talking about. It would be refreshing to read their viewpoints on the fact
that singel females, perhaps older and very much "second hand" and that can't get laid back home
can go there and be courted/bonked by young, black studs.
I'm looking forward..........................
------------------
None of us can really say what's right and what's wrong on this issue. Westerners and easterners have different cultures, different traditions, different laws, different religions, different views, different economies and different lives. Who are we to judge them any more than they are to judge us? I really have no opinion as to whether or not these prostitutes do what they do by choice or not. I have never been in their situation and luckily I never will. What I DO think is that prostitutes are different people just like the rest of us. And here in Europe there are prostitutes that are forced to do what they do - either by threats or by a severe drug prolem, yet there are prostitutes with a far better economy than their clients. There is no easy answer to this - no black and white line. Prostitutes are just like the rest of us, some are extremely unhappy, some not. Personally I don't think I could buy sex from one, knowing that this girl could be one of the unfortunates. That apart - I can't really see what's wrong with prostitution as an occupation. It's just the westerners corrupt christian "moral" that says this is right and this is wrong. In my country it was illegal to be gay only 25 years ago - today that seems silly. 25 years ago it was also a "sin" to have sex without being married...
¿......
Let's face it - we don't have the answer.
Today's Bangkok Post headline: "Somtam vendors' tasty
Service": " A common sight around Hua Lampong Rail terminus
are the many attractive somtam vendors wearing their best
clothes who are earning extra pocket money by engaging in
the oldest profession inthe world.""As night falls, many of
them leave their mobile stands for a few hours to have
dinner with customers, a euphemistic term for selling sex
and the business is reportedly brisk." Any comments from
Robert at Richly Travel?
Save for some unnecessary but perhaps understandable
tendency to get worked up, this is a pretty useful
discussion.
On the few occasions when I have seen Froggy's posts on this
subject, I have tended to agree with her but a few months
ago when I posed a query addressed to her which she ignored
it. I repeat it here in brief: what should men (the above
discussion suggests the possibility of women too) who are
just unable have normal social contact or who are for some
reason unable to get into a relationship with the opposite
sex, do?
A related query: is physical contact unaccompanied by social
interaction pure anathema? Then what about those indulging
in casual contact, (after drunken parties and so forth? Or
is that social interaction enough?)
froggy: just women? that's a laugh.
I wanted to say something to the people who maintain that
women use prostitutes too; I know this is true BUT you
cannot convince me that this comprises more than 1 or 2% of
the overall, worldwide phenomenon. Also, I think there are
fundamental differences, both physical and psychological in
the dynamic when men employ female prostitutes, and when
women employ male ones. Physical, because having someone
ENTER your body leaves you more vulnerable than doing the
entering yourself. Guys, think about the difference between
sex where someone puts something up your ass as opposed to
when they don't. Which type do you think would leave you
more psychologically vulnerable? Also, physically, you are
at much more of a risk of contracting STD's if you are being
entered, this is an undisputed fact. Yes, some female
prostitutes use condoms. Others DO NOT have this
possibility. In addition, you cannot say that the world is
the same for men and women in the realm of prostitution or
any other. In every country I know of, the women are paid
significantly lower than men, both because they are denied
entry into higher paying professions, and because they are
sometimes paid less money for doing the same job. Men,
overall, hold much more of the world's wealth than women.
I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, or that men in
"developing" nations make more than women in "developed"
ones, just that a disparity does exist. This means that the
issue of "choice" becomes very convoluted. And I agree with
what Froggy said above: it's very easy for (some) men to
argue that prostitution is OK, harmless when they have never
had to sell their ass.
... that the majority of male prostitutes cater to a male clientele, not a female clientele.
Probably didn't ignore it, sometimes I just don't log in for
a while. Lately I have been having a boring time at work -
and it shows in my preparedness to engage in these often
useless arguments!!
I do agree with Rand that we don't have the answer. But in
an attempted answer to your question; I actually don't have
a problem with prostitution per se. I get equally upset
when people assume that I am a moralist or a bloody
Christian - my opinions have totally nothing to do with
either - I do not subscribe to the Christian fables in any
way at all. My problem is that this erstwhile SEA Travel
page keeps getting filled up with questions about how to got
to get cheap sex. Which smacks of imperialism to me, as I
still don't accept that economic hardship constitutes a
choice. So people who fit the category you discuss Pol are
quite free to do whatever they like in my opinon, as long as
it doesn't take unfair advantage of somebody else. Even
then they can do it, but we don't all find it acceptable.
Also; "female perspective" - I am disinclined to tell you
whether I have ever been a prostititute or not - and anyway
that is somewhat subjective and irrelevant. Sorry about your
experience but I fail to see how that makes me a hypocrit.
As I noted above, many hookers are just plain old
nymphomaniacs, and do not feel "vulnerable" at all, but are
thinking about how sweet life is that they can get paid for
their favorite hobby. The STD issue is a knee-jerk fall
back-position when the anti prostitution gaggle realize that
their other arguments are crumbling. Would they change
threir position if there were no STD's? Of course not. As
far as the Great Oppression of Females Worldwide, go to any
Family Court in the United States, and watch the procession
of "psycologically vulnerable" men having their paychecks
and scrotums ritualistically mutilated to the cheers of
women like Froggy who profess political correctness but are
actually serving their
own political/personal/financial/sexual agenda. And this is
the only type of male ass-penetration that fits the context
of this conversation. Maybe new carreer direction, Froggy
and Mattie, Family Court Counselor. You can actually get
paid for your anti-male rage.
So your interminable questions and self-congratulating blather about
how you picked out the koh-i-noor diamond in Burma for 50c and
then got told it was worth blah blah blah, are more worthwhile to
the great majority of travellers than talking about sex?
'Smacks of Imperialism'? You don't beleive that economic hardship
constitutes a choice, why don't you read the postings from
Wichanee? Economic hardship does NOT force people to become
prostitutes.
Unfair advantage of others? Exactly how is it unfair? Is bargaining
over the price of a sapphire that you know you can sell for more in
your home sountry 'taking advantage of people?'
Engage brain before opening mouth, you new-age anal retentive.
The conversation is mostly uselss because you have learned
nothing from many of the people who are much more educated
in the subject than you. Most of these women are not being
Exploited. Reread the posts by especially by Rich, the guy
worked with them in an NGO for Chrissake. Once again, I
dare you, double dare you to go to a GoGo Bar/massage parlor
and test your theories. I will personally take you there.
This is why you are losing so much credibility here Froggy,
because you don't address the facts.
It is odd how women are more willing to "choose"
prostitution as their profession of choice when they are
poorer. If you hadn't noticed, the level of prostitution
rises in direct proportion to the level of poverty, it has
been well documented in Britain over the years.
Recently pimps in Amsterdam were lamenting the lack of Dutch
women entering the business and saying how they had to rely
on mainly women from Eastern Europe nowadays. Following a
familiar pattern of Poverty = prostitution, which includes
male prostitution - there are scores of little Sri Lankan
boys from shanty towns selling their asses by the roadside
as we speak, actively ecouraged by their desperate parents.
Perhaps there are othere choices, but certainly Poverty
primes women so that they are more likely to take the
alternative that they wouldn't necessarily take under more
favourable circumstances.
People will do anything when they are poor, and once they
get used to it of course it will become easier and then you
might as well do it for a colour TV. The selling of livers
and corneas is becoming more commonplace in India too,
people will sell their children sometimes if they have the
chance.
As for a bit of human comfort - I don't know. I've never
viewed Prostitution as a trade that provides sincere
emotional support - I thought it was more like 3 minutes on
a stained mattress. Well if bumming small boys provides you
with a bit of emotional comfort why not do that too? What
about all the paedophiles a-la Lolita who genuinely love
little kiddies and are all lonely and want a hug from a
little friend?
Uh, Mattie, genius, ever heard of Heidi Fliess, the
Hollywood Madame, a few years ago. Clientele and pros all
well-off or the Mayflower Madame in New York several years
before that, same deal. It's just that the richer they are
the more discrete they are, they get arrested less and are
less visible. My background is middle class, and I have
known several middle class female friends, and at least one
male friend, that have experimented turning tricks (through
escort agencies) in the USA, and they didn't do it out of
poverty. Many women (and men) love getting laid and are
even happier to do it for money. Once again, my invitation,
come to my hometown, and test your liberal artsey theories
out on the bar girls here. (And incidentally, as has been
pointed out to you innumerable times, but you fail to
listen, the majority of prostitution here is aimed at Thai
and other Asian men, and not Westerners) Just see how long
these women are even willing to listen to your fantastic
theories. You're a stereotypical PC male basher. Try an
original thought occasionally.
see article at
http://bangkokpost.net/220299/220299_News01.html
As a regular in the area I see this a lot.
I've had a bit of dinner with them and sometimes stop for a
drink, but the pinkish booze they're pushing is truly awful
stuff. This is almost purely a local scene, in 5 months
have seen only one lost looking farang sitting with them.
Not surprising as none seems to speak any English.
Haven't taken one out yet, as I'm still sorting out the
obvious-mercenary-whores and several are obviously in the
too-embarrassed-to-talk class. Working my way around the
circle slowly. This may take awhile on a once a week basis
but its more fun for me than say, Buckskins, where the
invitation to foreplay is a hand thrust down your pants.
Early evening this is mostly semi-pro action. You must,
in effect, court the lovely as she feeds you.
Some deliciously pretty girls!
froggy --
your quote (above was):
"...You are a man, so how the hell can you associate with what its like to be a female prostitute? Have you ever had to sell your ass?...All you men on this page just can not make the distinction that you will never be in this position."
The reason it's hypocritical if you've never been a prostitute yourself is because you've accused the men of being unable to relate due to a lack of experience when you yourself have never had the experience. If you HAVE had the experience, you can at least state that YOUR experience with prostitution was unpleasant, but this still says nothing about the experience of the prostitute in general. You're also mixing your terms to lend strength to your argument. First, you refer to "female prostitutes" and then to "selling your ass." No man could truly relate to being female, period, anymore than we could relate to being male. However, this does not lead to men being unable to relate to "selling their ass." You refer to my comments as being "subjective and irrelevant", and certainly my recent personal experience can be deemed as such. However, my "hypocritical" reference still holds as both objective and relevant.
Mattie --
Above, you state:
"It is odd how women are more willing to 'choose'
prostitution as their profession of choice when they are
poorer."
I would like to point out that women are also more likely to choose to be waitresses when they're poorer. The pay is good, and you don't need to know much going in. I knew a woman who paid her way through medical school working as a topless dancer. The pay was good, and the late hours fit her schedule. Many med school students sell their blood at blood banks. Another woman I know danced at a strip bar and paid for her entire undergraduate degree this way. It's great when you have other options, or if you're willing to live with lesser options. Some people are just more ambitious than others, and are willing to pay a steep price to get what they want.
I'm glad the entire issue is put into an american perspec-
tive, not that it is relevant or applies to the asian situa-
tion, but at least the shallow ones will be content in
their disilliusional view of things as they would like them
to be...
I really didn't meet any asian prostitues who aspired a
career, just girls who wanted to find financial security or
some extra spending money... no noble causes... sorry to
shatter your dreams...
Froggy, I kind of have the wind taken out of my sails when
you say you've no problem with prostitution per se.
My problem is this: can one make a case for moral and
ethical understanding of recourse to it? That presumes --
and is it important that there should be this presumption --
that some people voluntarily choose to sell such services.
The above discussion (sorry, guys) fails to confince me that
that is the case.
(In other words I seem to be voting with Wichanee, Froggy
and Mattie, dispite the at times ingenious arguments against
them.) Of course, the vitriol accompanying this discussion
clouds rational exchange, but as I said earlier, it seems
unavoidable in this site.
I am a Thai female studying doing an undergraduate degree in
Canada. Having had the luck to be born into a upper class
family I use to look upon the prositutes as "immoral" and
wish westerns would not consider my county as a sexual
playground. We would never mention the prositutes or speak
about sex.
I always wondered what was going through there minds when I
saw an older farang walking around hand in hand with a young
Thai women. I knew these women were prositutes and turned
my back to them. I did not want to see it.
I decided on a trip back home to do an honours project on
the subject. With the help of a farang friend, I visited
the patpong for the first time in my life and asked the
other white men there opinion of Thai women and men.
Interesting enough they thought we were all easy.
Incidently 75 percent of my friends are waiting for
marriage. I do not know where these figures that the
western books get.
I then took the report one step further and wrote a section
from the Thai prositute point of view. Most of them on
patpong were from the Cambodia side, although many were from
up north. Most came to BKK to get away to the big city.
Once there they needed money to be entertained. Bangkok is
very expensive to party. With so much to do I ,like the
prositutes want to do everything all of the time. We eat
out with firends everyday, go dance at the techno bar. We
want everything.
With only six years education, prositution is the only way
they can afford to do these things. Most of them hated
having sex with the fat westerners. But they know that they
had to do it. They are not doing it to survive but because
they want everything.
They are a mixture of people. SOme were very smart and
could write/ speak very well. Others could not. Most were
very friend when I was with a White person. On my own they
were not.
Even as a thai, I speak Thai it is hard to know what it is
like for them. I still wish it would stop. I love
thailand to much to see this. When you are there remember
me and them, please treat them with respect.
For a viewpoint on prostitution plus life in Thailand from
an expat currently residing in Bangkok, check out the
following no-nonsense page:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/6413/
that's the most well-rounded view so far. I agree with Apple's point that some people want more, and are willing to do what it takes to get what they want.
Rhonda, my point wasn't that Thai prostitutes are saving money for college. I was trying to show that EVERYbody who engages in occupations in the sex industry is not poor, lower-class, and uneducated (to counter Froggy/Mattie). However, most people who work in the sex industry do so because the pay is better than the local going rate for unskilled, transient labor. They want "something more", whether that be fancy clothes and nightclubs, a better way of life (outside work), drugs, or a college education, and they're willing to accept the risks and unpleasant aspects associated with the sex industry.
I'd imagine most of them wouldn't be interested in being "saved" from their jobs, unless that salvation came with living expenses. Apple, you mentioned the prostitutes were friendly when you were with a white person, but not when you were alone. I'd guess they'd be friendly -- and willing to tell a sad story -- to anyone who appears affluent, generous and sympathetic. I'd imagine they recognised you as an upper-class Thai woman, and knew they wouldn't get sympathy -- or financial assistance.
I have lived in Thailand for four years, and I reside with
my Thai wife and Thai family. I also speak Thai, and love
Thailand. Unlike Apple, I am not from an upper class
Thai family that has been taught to disdain prostitutes. I
would venture to guess that I have spent quite a bit more
time in Go Go bars than you. Why is it necessary to say
"Fat" Western men? A bit of racism there? Or are you
trying to distinguish them from "thin" Western men, or fat
Thai and Asian Men? Even supposing you're story is true,
what is a lower status country girl working in a bar going
to reply to a question from an upper class foreign educated
Thai who asks her, "How do you feel about bonking Fat
Unattractive Older Foreigners?" By the way, APPLE, did you
go to any local Op Awp Nuats or down to Lumpini Park one
evening to ask the girls how they felt about bonking older
drunk fat Thai men? It seems to me your western education
has caused you to absorb the same anti-White male PC-ness
that has affected the brains of Mattie and Froggy. What
about the Arab and Black men on Nana, any comment?
Rhonda: I'm not sure what your point is, about American
perspective. I was trying to point out that many
prostitutes go into the business because they like it and
not out of financial need. And I was providing personal
stories to serve as cross cultural examples. I have had two
male friends that went into (primarily) gay prostitution,
and three female friends that worked for escort
services. This was in the USA, but I'm sure it could have
been any country. And these are only the friends I know
about. They did it because its an easy job to get paid for
your company, and yes occasionally you have to put up with a
slob, but not always. They all enjoyed sex, were middle
class and well educated. In essence, same as with Thai
prostitutes.
For my harsh language. After re-reading your post, I
realize that you are essentially agreeing with my original
position, That the girls are a diverse lot, and are doing
this out of choice. I guess you're "Fat Westerner" remark
just pissed me off. I work out every single day, fours days
with weights, and two days with Muay Thai. I am not fat.
And I assure you that I don't think that Thai women are
"easy". I have chosen to live in Thailand because I have
such great respect for the Thai people and the Thai way of
life.
Let me assist you all in concluding these circular
arguments. Prostitution is the world's oldest profession.
A famous saying and with good reason. There will always be
an ample supply and demand. It is not peculiar to
Thailand. White men are not the chief patrons of this
service in Thailand, rather Asian and Thai men are
themselves. Not only women, but also men work in the sex
trade. It is sexist to say otherwise. The women who are
involved sometimes, but not always, have more limited
economic choices than than other women. Some choose the
life for the money and hedonistic lifestyle. Others choose
it because of financial goals and/or needs. Some of them
enjoy getting laid; some don't. All prefer to get laid by
attractive customers rather than unattractive ones. Some
customers are attractive; some are not. The women who engage
in these discussions are never prostitutes themselves.
Women who are NOT prostitutes generally disapprove of
FEMALE prostitution, but not for the reasons they profess.
Rather, they view their sexual services as a valuable
commodity, and seeing similar services sold cheaply devalues
their own perceived sexual worth. Therefore these women
must condemn the services anyway they can, whether these
women are Asian or Western.
Your comments got my blood boiling a bit. I am 38 and my
Thai wife of 40 have been married for 9 years now. We love
Thailand but the one thing that does piss me off a little
there is the ignorance that you also showed in your post.
You said "I knew these women were prostitutes and I don't
want to see it so I just turn my back on them" Thanks a lot
this happens to my wife and I and as I said that really gets
me going. That is discriminative and wrong, I can assure you
my wife never has been a prostitute. I wish those Thais like
you would treat us all like individuals and not like one big
group. When you look at a westerner walking hand in hand
with a Thai woman next time just think that they could be
husband and wife before you jump to any conclusion, thanks!
Bill.
I was bothered by your posting Apple, although I felt you
agreed with my major premise, that Bar girls do it by
choice. I am sure if we met in person you're a very nice
person, but you seem to have a few racist and elitest
attitudes. And once again, white men are a) a variety of
hues ranging from pinkish to cafe ole to brown and b) not
all fat. I relish any and all opportunities to take off my
shirt and flex my well proportioned honed and trim muscles.
And please remember the King's daughter in America, married
to one of us "hammy fat" Westerners.
The argument that the only reason that Western women find
Prostitution so abhorrent is because we feel our sexuality
threatened by Prostitutes is just ridiculous.
MOst women that I've talked to find prostitution
distatsteful for the simple reason that we can empathise
with these women. Not because we know exactly how they feel
or what they are thinking, but simply because the majority
of women wouldn't want to sleep with a man for any other
reason than the fact they were attracted to them (just like
most men I'm sure). It's just naturally nauseating to HAVE
to sleep with someone you just don't want to. Cast your mind
back to the last man who tried to chat you up in a bar that
you really weren't interested in at all, and then think
about actually having to sleep with him. Women just get
freaked out by prostitution because it is literally one of
the last things a woman would want to do. I have a hundred
fold amount of respect for those girls because they are
doing something I hope I will never have to do. I feel the
same way about male prostitutes too. But of course women go
on about female prostitution more because:
a) there are far, far more of them
b) it is something that we can empathise with on a greater
level - ie coloured people will feel more deeply on matters
of racism than white people, women will feel more strongly
about issues such as rape even if they have never been raped
because it is something we can identify acutely with as a
threat to our independence, just as Prostitution is. Here
men dominate women, from the pimp to the client. That we
find threatening.
Another thing, links have been made between the prevelance
of women who have been sexually abused as children being
more likely to be involved in prostitution. I really don't
care whether a woman actively chooses to become a prostitute
that's great, like the high class hookers of Heidi Fleiss -
more power to them. It is just that most of the time it is
the economy and the social situation that are more of a
factor than a mere career choice.
Is your report available?
Would be nice to have the research of a Thai female around
to point to during the recurrent TT and continuous
soc.culture.thai flamewars. You would have more instant
credibility than most.
I'm only mildly interested in the whole thing but the
debate will not disappear soon.
Am willing to host it if you wish to preserve your privacy.
Robert
http://members.xoom.com/robertmwhite/
where do you think your prospects for a secure (and
financially beneficial) marriage would be better: 1) In a
place where a man could go and get his rocks off anytime he
wants by a good looking girl for a pittance, or 2) In a
place where a man seeking any sexual relief can either get
married or massage his own tenderloin?
Oh yeah, and APPLE, how many minor wives does your King
have? Please explain this Thai custom to the readers and
posters here before going on about Western consumption of
the Thai sex trade.
I think all of you men who have great muscles (VOMIT!!) must be quite correct. It is quite socially, morally and humanitarianly (?) OKto be, or to be a customer of, a lowly paid prostitute in Asia. Of course, its even more good becuase Thai men use you too. If you have a Thai wife you are naturally reeking of credabilty, consequently nobody else has a right to an opinion. And of course, if we fail to appreciate the logic of your arguments we are overly emotional and lacking in cred!! And our education levels make so much difference - if we have high ones we couldn't possibly know what real life is about, and if we have low ones we aren't suitably informed. It seems we can't win, expect maybe by visiting a go go bar in Bangkok with the Mr Universe Expat Rat. Of course I really need a man to take me to a bar, I really haven't been and have no ability to get around Asia by myself. In fact I would be frightened and need a bit muscular man to protect me.
There you are - my final comment. I just clearly don't share the same value system and lets leave it at that. I am off to Sydney for a week so you won't hear any more from me. Have fun boys and girls.
I think we should talk some more about this. That┤s all I
have to say. I will let Kipling speak for me now:
"East is east and West is west and never shall the two of
them meet!"
Ooooh...can you see what you have done with all your
arguments and pros and cons ? Now Froggy is insulted!
The problem with Froggy is that she frequently partakes in
the sextrade discussion without the intention of discussing
anything. She simply likes to preach and insists on the
rightness of her values like the CEO of the vatican. Try to
discuss abortion with a dogmatic roman catholic...
Froggy┤s on a crusade against people who talk about
ôoffensive activitiesö (e.g. SEX). Old-school feminism mixed
up with seemingly unpleasant personal experiences. There is
no analysis, no reason, no stringent line of argumentation -
and no willingness to accept interdisciplinary ideas on
exploitation beneath her own view of it (...talking about the
Burma issue...) . Instead a lot of curly-headed, flaming
babbling about ôfeministic stanceö, ôexploitationö and
ômacho-ismö in the service of telling MEN what cretins they
are. Now, after too much conceptual counter pressure (even
from her treacherous sisters), all she does is become polemic
and declare that she┤s out of this....Until the next sex-
related poster dares to pollute Mrs. Justice┤s hometurf (ôI
just clearly don't share the same value system and lets leave
it at that.ö - You are never gonna make it.)
This is the first time I have seen a substantial, brainful
discussion on this topic on the thorntree. Good one.
For further info on the topic, the Erik Cohen papers are
indeed a fine piece of work - probably the most balanced and
thoughtfully researched so far. Most of them are collected
in ôThai Tourismö (White Lotus Press).
People, including some of the women seem to like getting
worked up rather than responding in a level headed manner.
Ah, well.
Expat, small remark on what you said in post 32.. in my
view Thai prostitutes do not prostitute themselves because
they like it and actually do need to do it because of
financial need.. the obsession to enjoy their life to the
highest standard they can obtain. (not necesarily because
they are poor, but because they want to enjoy life to their
highest financial ability..) Once they're in the scene,
peer/group pressure builds from there.. And depending on
the period in their lives they are on the look of a saviour
to finance their life, not when they are young and still
have a lot of financial prospects, but having children and
getting older speed up this process. Just an opinion...
Apple here again.....To all of those that I offended I am
sorry. I am not calling all white men fat. Far from that.
It is just there was a few cases where I talked to the
prositutes asking them about their first time et al. And
more then one balled her eyes out afterwards beacuse they
were unattracted to the older men who were their fathers age
and smothered them with their bodies. So my fat statement
was not a wide general insult to all western men, just
relaying specific cases of individual women.
And Bill, I would not consider you and you wife as a
farang/prositute relationship if I saw you. You are too
close in age. It is the ones at the airport when I fly back
home that the 45 year old business man is kissing the 20
year old Thai goodbye that I do not like. I realize that
with all of the farang in Bangkok that one or two must be
married to Thais. Good for you!
Robert, I am considering making this a Masters project in
September, so I can not publish it to the internet as you
suggested. It should be ready in 2 years and hopefully
published in a sociology journal. Look for it then.
A friend just showed me this site the other day. I was
happy to see the western perspective on it. I am currently
reading "Patpong sisters" by Dr. Cleo Odzer and although the
story is really good and has a interesting slant I am not
sure where she got some of the stats. I am quite sure that
90% of thai men have not slept around with a prositute
before they were 20. I know my brother, father and
grandfather did not.
Economist... Do not say those things about the king. He is
a great man who works very hard and helps out the poorer
people in Thailand. He does not protitute them. Learn a
little Thai History and you will know that the idea of Major
Wife, Minor wife was abolished almost 75 years ago and this
brought on the mass prositutes in Thailand in the 1900's.
Finally...It is not the westerns in patpong, Nana, Phuket
etc. that I despise, it is the men, like economist who show
no respect for the nation I love and choice to use it as a
sexual playground. I hate people think that if they can not
get lucky at home that you can find a thai and get your
rocks off. My point is most thai females like myself are
not as easy as most westerns believe. A few of the tourist
I met never saw beyond Patpong and had a wide sweeping view
of Thialand as a fun land. For those of you who are guilty
of this please leave patpong, and your western hotels/motels
and view Thailand for what if really is.
Might be of interest for you:
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bs388085/papers.htm
Whow - this topic sped up lately...
OK - I still mostly stick to my post further up this page. A new question came to my mind however - and this goes for prostitution as a general institution, not simply in Thailand. If a guy buys sex from a woman isn't that a more ethical and honest thing than what guys usually do for sex: seduction? And I'm not talking about the neutral attraction kind of seduction. I'm talking about all those bastards out there who talk fair, make promises and tell women/girls how much they care and then dump them as soon as they get laid? And I'm not justifying prostitution based on this, but what's really worse? Again - I have nothing against prostitution per se - as froggy says. It's kind of like the death penalty discussion to me. I principally agree, but I'm still against it. Why? Because plenty innocent people have been fried around the world. And let's face it - there are plenty of abused prostitutes out there.
I did not say anything bad about the King, Apple, as I do
not think that having minor wives is necessarily wrong, it
is just a cultural difference. You, apparently do think
there is something wrong with it however. The practice of
having minor wives may well have been outlawed, but
prostitution is also prohibited by the Thai law and
nevertheless exists openly as does the practice of keeping
minor wives. Now, please answer the question without
accusing me of lese majeste. You are not in Thailand
anymore, this is an international forum and we're trying to
have an objective discussion.
Last message was funny, but once again you destroyed your
credibility by not addressing the issues, and resorting to
personal attacks. Issue 1) Many of the girls are not
poorly paid. Please see posts by Wichanee and Apple if you
don't believe me. Issue 2) The reason why we bring Thai
and other Asian men inot it is because you and your gaggle
always focus on the western angle. I believe this shows
your lack of sincerity in being anti-prostitution. If you
were truly anti-prostitution you would not be adddressing
those who participate on a minority basis only. My guess is
that you don't like western men doing it because that
directly affects you personally. Supply and demand. You
don't like men in your social circle having sex easily
available to them by women who may be more attractive than
you. Issue 3) I am not more credible just because I have a
Thai wife, but because I have lived in thailand for four
years, and have spend a lot of time speaking with both Thai
working girls and their customers. This is called empirical
experience. Issue 4) In spite of being humorous, your last
post is a Cop-out. You indulged in a personal attack, did
not address the issues and then pronounced that you would
not return because your going to Sydney. No Internet in
Sydney I guess.
Last message was funny, but once again you destroyed your
credibility by not addressing the issues, and resorting to
personal attacks. Issue 1) Many of the girls are not
poorly paid. Please see posts by Wichanee and Apple if you
don't believe me. Issue 2) The reason why we bring Thai
and other Asian men inot it is because you and your gaggle
always focus on the western angle. I believe this shows
your lack of sincerity in being anti-prostitution. If you
were truly anti-prostitution you would not be adddressing
those who participate on a minority basis only. My guess is
that you don't like western men doing it because that
directly affects you personally. Supply and demand. You
don't like men in your social circle having sex easily
available to them by women who may be more attractive than
you. Issue 3) I am not more credible just because I have a
Thai wife, but because I have lived in thailand for four
years, and have spend a lot of time speaking with both Thai
working girls and their customers. This is called empirical
experience. Issue 4) In spite of being humorous, your last
post is a Cop-out. You indulged in a personal attack, did
not address the issues and then pronounced that you would
not return because your going to Sydney. No Internet in
Sydney I guess.
To Bill and Expat Rat,
Don't get too thin skinned with Apple's comment.
She just reflects what the public opinion in Thailand has
established since , I suppose, the Vietnam war. Apple must be
in her mid-twenties and her view remains the view I
experienced when I was her age - in the seventies when
massive prostitution raged on in unprecedented scale. Time
doesn't change people's opinion or prejuduce in this case.My
friends who were brave enough to marry Farangs in those
years suffer the public disdain without exception - the children
are even called 'half-caste' very unkind isn't it? All of us are
educated, professionals,upperclass even but we still can't
override the public's confirmed stereotype that prim and
proper girl won't socialize with 'Farangs'. When bargirls start
flaunting their finds or customers along Sukumvit Rd, it's natural
that the public would condemn a mixed couple as such.
Upperclass reaction is to 'turn her back' as Apple said she did
whereas lower class reaction will be verbal harrassment to say
the least. I have many farang friends and I entertain a lot at
home. My neighbours still view me as 'strange' after all these
years!
And to you Expat Rat - when the oldest princess married that
American, the Thai public 's reaction can be summed up in
one Thai word 'SIA DAI'. When a bargirl marries a Farang,her
family considers that is a 'catch'. It's another way round here.
As a foreigner living in Thailand I am constantly reminded
of my status, both legally and socially, as an outsider.
However my experience with my wife, who is from a well-off
Bangkok family, has not been as negative as you have
portrayed. We have generally been accepted by her friends
and her family, and never has a stranger made a negative
remark in our presence. I think it has to do with her
status and her bearing. If I were with a "lower status"
woman from Issan, I think there might be a greater
likelihood of negative comments. Nevertheless, thank you
for reminding me that I can never be fully accepted in
Thailand no matter how hard I try. ItÆs useful to have
these reality checks periodically
I have been to Thailand about five times over the last 15
years. With the exception of my last trip to Thailand, I
have "purchased" the services of a bargirl. I have come to
the conclusion that its NOT worth risking your life for a
few hours of questionable pleasure. I consider myself to be
reasonably attractive and I am only 35, but most of the
bargirls weren't very keen to finish the transaction and in
my opinion were only interested in the money. Most of time
they were very friendly and affectative in the bar, but
back in my room, they seemed get very mercanery.
Alot of the bargirls I spoke to, were very ashamed of what
they did for a living and seemed to be scared of what the
future held for them. Afterwards I felt ashamed, as I
thought I was just contributing to their problems.
I would say that the average bargirl has a working life
expectancy of about 10-12 years. After that time, her
mental or phyiscal health would be rapidly diminishing. If
she hasn't been able to marry a farang or save alot of
money, her future isn't very looking good. She then finds
herself on the "scrap heap" as she is held in distain by
the most Thai's and farang men are no longer interested in
her.
On the other hand, having done it myself and I can see why
western men are so attracted to asian women. Talking from
own experience, I don't get a second look from most women
at home, but in asia I have women practically throwing
themselves at me! Its a huge ego boost!!
I am planning a trip to Thailand later this year and I will
try to abstain from "the pleasure's of the flesh" and see
the other things Thailand has to offer!
You're an female imposter posing as a male customer. It's
so obvious. The "NOT worth risking your life for a few
hours of questionable pleasure" ia a woman's argument. Men
just slip on a condom and forget about it. That the
bargirls weren't keen on finishing the transaction and only
wanted the money. They get paid afterward, unless you're a
complete sucker. Very, very few of the girls are ashamed of
waht their doing--they are enjoying life and making the best
of their circumstances. Prostitutes and their customers
laugh, converse and play together in very normal ways.
After their years of sex work are over, they don't have to
tell anyone what they have done, and can take up convential
work.
Then your name, "Big Stud" is so obviously fake it's almost
comical. As well as your last paragraph, the "women won't
even look at me back home." This is Froggy's and Mattie's
argument. Which one are you? My guess is Mattie.
Can't address the facts or issues. Froggy has run away
after a histrionic display, and now you. Resorting to these
ridiculous transparent attempts.
Why do you even care if two adult strangers engage in
consensual sex? Get help Mattie. You need it.
You're an imposter female posing as a male customer. It's
so obvious. The "NOT worth risking your life for a few
hours of questionable pleasure" ia a woman's argument. Men
just slip on a condom and forget about it. That the
bargirls weren't keen on finishing the transaction and only
wanted the money. They get paid afterward, unless you're a
complete sucker. Very, very few of the girls are ashamed of
waht their doing--they are enjoying life and making the best
of their circumstances. Prostitutes and their customers
laugh, converse and play together in very normal ways.
After their years of sex work are over, they don't have to
tell anyone what they have done, and can take up convential
work.
Then your name, "Big Stud" is so obviously fake it's almost
comical. As well as your last paragraph, the "women won't
even look at me back home." This is Froggy's and Mattie's
argument. Which one are you? My guess is Mattie.
Can't address the facts or issues. Froggy has run away
after a histrionic display, and now you. Resorting to these
ridiculous transparent attempts.
Why do you even care if two adult strangers engage in
consensual sex? Get help Mattie. You need it.
I bet you both enjoyed "How Stella Got Her Groove Back",
now din't ya.
froggy/mattie, say it isn't so. tell us you're not "big stud". either "big stud" is for real, or it's a woman. no man would stoop to impostering a post like that (specifically: faking an experience to gain credibility for an argument.)
before my post degenerates into me asking what other experiences you fake, or whether this sort of behavior carries over into your professional lives (oops! too late) please, please, say it isn't so!
"big stud", say something really masculine, and get the ladies off the hook.
I am glad that Non-Believer and Sidelines enjoyed my
posting. I am NOT Froggy or Mattie, but a 35 year old man
from Australia. I was just trying to state my opinion
formed from experiences, I have had travelling in S.E.
Asia. I can see valid arguements on both sides.
As I stated in my previous posting, I can understand why
western men are so attracted to asian women and bargirls in
particular. They're attractive, they usually come on to you
first and compared to the hookers at home, they're alot
cheaper! The bottom line is that if you catch AIDS, its not
curable. My uncle was a bum-bandit, who died of AIDS four
years ago. It took him about 8 years to die and I don't
want the same thing to happen to me. My other arguement is
that bargirl/prostitutes are human beings and deserve
something better, then to be treated like a piece of meat
to be disposed of, when they're mentally and phyiscally
worn-out. I don't think the average bargirl has a
"retirement plan" apart from trying to marry a farang.
It might interest you to know I recieved the nickname "Big
Stud" from an army mate when I was about 19, because he
considered me to be over-sexed!
but you still sound like a woman, especially the part,
"bargirls/prostitutes are human beings and deserve something
better than to be treated like a piece of meat to be
disposed of." It's almost to imagine a male voice sounding
these words. And no army buddy is going to give a nickname,
"Big Stud". We men are decadent, Mattie. We choose
names like "The Fisherman" "Alpha Male" "Gourmet Asian
Pussy Expert". "Big Stud" is only suited to the limited
imagination of our dear little Mattie. I've lost the
little respect I once had for your intelligence with this
prank.
the "big stud" posts are sliding into the realm of a grey area; it could be a really sensitive, wussy guy, or Mattie is fine-tuning her guy imitation. I say, Mattie gets to lie, as long as her guy imitations are REALLY good. That way, she'll be entertaining even if she's lost all credibility.
If a man says something about prostitution that's not all
"yeah, it's great, it's fine, the girls love it, they're
nymphos" everyone says he's not a girl, or that if he's a
guy he's a "wussy" one. I really love these stereotypes.
All femminists hate men and are ugly and hairy and bitter
because they can't get a man. Any man who does not support
(directly or indirectly) prostitution is not a real man, or
is a wuss. Also the post about "which place do you think
it's easier to get a secure marriage in, one with or without
cheap prostitution" (Economist) made me laugh: who says I
want to get married? Mysogynists just cannot accept the
fact that women like me exist: I am attractive, slim, shave
my legs, am heteosexual, love sex, love men and am a
FEMMINIST. I'm not threatened by the phenomenon of men going
to prostitutes--I don't want a man who's just interested in
fucking and then leaving (or having me leave him--another
post on this topic awhile back said that men pay prostitutes
not to have sex, but to make them go away afterwards.
Really great testimonial to the "emotional connection"
someone suggested is the norm in prostitution exchanges.
Also, why did you, expat rat, title your posting "thai
perspective" when you're not Thai? Living in the country
doesn't give you the perspective of a Thai, it gives you the
perspective of a foreigner living in Thailand. And oh, to
Mr. concerned about racism aka expat rat, what's cafe "ole"?
Something out of a bad flamenco movie?
Lot of hostility there, MJ, but at least more intelligence
than the pseudo feminists. To address your points:
1) Nothing wrong with feminists, something wrong with
pseudo-feminists. Prostitution is a right of choice that
should belong equally to either men or women. Many
feminists argue in favor of a woman's absolute right to
choose prostitution and argue that the institution of
marriage is more exploitative than prostitution itself.
2) We are surmising that "Big Stud" is Mattie, and have no
hard proof. This is based on (her) writing style and (her)
lack of knowledge about the way prostitution is carried on
in real life. Have no real proof. This however does not
carry over to your conclusion that any man who is against
prostitution is considered to be a "wuss". However, in my
experience, most people who were against (female)
prostitution were females and not males.
3) My title "Thai Perspective" should have been entitled
"Perspective from Thailand". What this has to do with the
merit my arguments I fail to see. But I can assure you my
male Thai friends are some of the most frequent patrons of
the local water trade.
4) "Cafe Ole" is not a racist term. Why you think it is I
do not know.
Enjoyed your post. Please write again. And can't wait for
Big Stud's next entry.
yes there email booths in sydney, i am in one but it has a
keyboard that you need big muscles to use! No the posts
above aren't from me (big stud), I am happy to own my own
opinions. The reason that I haven't spent my holiday in
Sydeny on the internet is, strangely, becuase I have had
better things to do. Like spend time with my (male) partner
of ten years. And before you ask , yes we have a normal
(whatever) relationship! I am going back to my fuweekend.
cheers, froggy
To Non-Believer & Sideline go fuck yourself! I am Not
against prostition, as long as the women involved can
control their destiny. I just don't think its worth the
risk of catching AIDS for a couple of hours of pleasure.
When I was in Ko Samui in March'91, I had a condom break
when I was having sex with a bargirl. I spent the next
three months worrying, until I got the results of the blood
test. Sex with a prostitute, is just a poor subsuite for
the real thing. I should know, I fucked enough whores!!
The cursing part helps you sound more masculine. But you
are still referring to Big Stud in the third person too
often. You should also say "I exist", and not, "Big Stud"
exists. It's a dead giveaway. Tell us more about your
wild sexual exploits. Oh, and do your friends call you
"Big" or "Stud", or is it the full name as in, "Hey Big
Stud."
Yeah...BigStud...(grin)...go! You┤re getting better (giggle).
My favourite part are the last two sentences (snort of
laughter)
Interesting that in a forum like TT that has its fair share
of aggressive language (see above!) Expat says MY post has a
lot of hostility. Irony? Second, it's great and all for
you to be concerned about defending women's (and men's)
right to prostitute themselves, and while I too support
people's right to any employment they choose, I somehow
think that far fewer women (and men) would "choose" to sell
their bodies if their rights to enter into other, more safe
and less invasive, damaging jobs were being more actively
supported. I'm not trying to BLAME you, or anyone else for
the negative aspects of the sex trade, or the inequities of
the world in general, I'm just saying that of all the rights
that women need support with, the right to sell their bodies
is, while valid, low on MY priority list and I wonder why
it's high on yours? Perhaps it's less about supporting
people's rights than rationalising the behavior of those
that employ them. About your male Thai friends using
prostitutes, am I supposed to be surprised by that (gee, I
thought only white guys used them), or change my opinion on
it because of it? (If Thais do it too it must be OK)?
Finally, did I say the cafe "ole" term was racist? No. I
find it interesting that "Bob" called me stupid and
completely unaware of facetious overtones but here you are
saying that I called your term racist. I was being
facetious myself, making a somewhat mean joke about the fact
that it's really cafe "au lait"--with milk, not cafe with
spanish equivalent of "yahoo".
Well thought out, etc. Actually, the right to
choose prostitution as employment is not very high on my
list of priorities of human rights. When I wrote my
original post I wanted to shed some light on what I view as
a pseudo-feminist, quasi-Victorian and uninformed bias
against the sex trade in Thailand.
1) Western Women like Mattie and Froggy object to the
Western man's patronage of female Asian prostitutes. Why do
I mention Thai men? The same reason why I emphasize FEMALE
prostitution. Because Mattie and Froggy ignore the majority
of prostitution, ie, Asian with Asian, and the large male
prostitution business, I believe they are not truly
sincere. They are only interested in curtailing prostiution
when it comes to Western men, ie, when it affects their
personal interests.
2) Countless posts, by people who have worked in NGO's
involving prostitutes, by expats living in Thailand, and
even by Thai females bcak up my point that the vast majority
of these women do it out of choice, and can make a fair
amount of money from it. I say they deserve that choice,
and I think my position is a true feminist view. This is
why I entitled my post, "Go Visit a Go Go Bar". Go there.
Talk to the girls. Don't take my word for it. So far,
Froggy and Mattie, and their ilk choose not to take me up on
this challenge, but prefer to bandy about the same tired
arguments.
3) I am not trying to support the people's rights who
employ prostitutes. I don't even use prostitutes. The
mamasans are usually women themselves, at least in Patpong
and similar places. And if you would talk to these girls,
you'd understand that they're free agents more than
employees. The typical arrangement is that all tips they
make are their own. Tips are generally between 500-1500
baht. They get 20 baht for each "lady drink", and half
the bar fine which is 400 baht. They can use their money to
go to college, study distance education, go to beauty school
or whatever they like. If they practice safe sex, avoid
drug addiction and other evils, they can do well.
4) I cannot speak for any of the other males here, "Bob" or
whoever. We are not a homogenous group, and we all have our
own opinions. I believe that you should be able to have a
conversation without resorting to namecalling and hostility.
I think the nature of this forum, with everyone being
faceless and anonymous makes it easier for discussions to
degrade into abusiveness.
5) You are absolutely correct about "cafe au lait". But we
only have instant coffee in Thailand and my coffee
terminology is slipping, or maybe the "ole" was a Freudian
slip indicating how much I am craving a real cup of coffee.
Thanks for your post.
Some people have too much time on their hands.
Amidst this very stimulating discussion, and a lot of good points
have been made by many of you in this thread, I hope we don't
ignore the point of "Apple" about Patpong NOT being very
representative of Thailand. Many Thais are simply offended by
such behavior, even though they may tolerate it.
.
Ironically, you'll find this among the girls themselves, most of
whom come from traditional, albeit impoverished "upcountry"
families. Perhaps this explains why some of you got the
impression that the bar girls were ashamed of what they did.
.
And whether Big Stud is who he says he is or not doesn't mean
that what he says he experienced isn't absolutely true. The
apparent affection displayed by a girl in the bar can quickly
evaporate in the motel room. Those who are looking for real
affection should probably look elsewhere.
.
This isn't meant to sound like an inditement of anthing. As I've
said already, many of you raised very good points. Even
though the arguments might seem to be contradictory, in real
life they're often not.
.
The girls, if they're successful, can make a lot of money without
having to spend much time at it--or with the men who are the
source of their prosperity. The men, those who are into it, get to
enjoy being laid by some very attractive women--without any
kind of emotional commitment. To some it's paradise.
It's you again Mattie. Don't lie. I know your writing
style already. The girls in Patpong are not "offended" and
"ashamed". They are out partying and having a good time.
Maybe you should go out and try to have a good time, Mattie,
instead of making up aliases and moralizing about situations
you know nothing about. By the way there are no "motels" in
Patpong. God, you're pathetic.
It's you again Mattie. Don't lie. I know your writing
style already. The girls in Patpong are not "offended" and
"ashamed". They are out partying and having a good time.
Maybe you should go out and try to have a good time, Mattie,
instead of making up aliases and moralizing about situations
you know nothing about. By the way there are no "motels" in
Patpong. God, you're pathetic.
Certainly not because I expect you to change your opinion
Expat Rat;
a; the thing that really pisses me off (and I know you
probably are trying to do just that) is that you impute that
my position on this issue is based on some need to stop
western males from escaping my grasp!! What a total joke -
firstly you overestimate the merchandise greatly, secondly
your statement is very ethnocentric - like why would western
males be any more desirable to me or anyone else? It
doesn't effect my personal interests one iota. My position
is that I don't like it when financially privileged western
men go to asia for a CHEAP sex holiday. It smacks to me of
imperialism - the rich nation taking advantage of the poor.
The rich (and frequently undesirable)man taking advantage of
the poor woman.
b; secondly you hide behind this "Froggy and Mattie won't
come with me to a go go bar" - which is clearly unlikely and
ignores my previous statement that I have already done so
without you thanks very much, and possibly long before you
ever got there!
Have a nice day....
Sex for Western men should be expensive, hard to get and
unpleasant. As I'm sure it is for all the men in Froggy's
life.
I am a working girl in Patpong. I wish you liberated
females would stop protecting me. I make more in one night
than you make in a week. One night this Thai student chick
doing resaerch came in and tried to relate to me, but she
was she was scaring off all my customers. What a dog! I
told her how exploited I was to try to get rid of her and
she actually believed me. I wish she would've given me some
money. That's what I was really after. If you want to know
the truth, I don't brag about being a hooker, but I don't
mind it. It beats working in McDonalds, I have friends and
many of the guys are cute and good screws. What do you
think me and my working friends talk about? We talk about
penis size, how many orgasms a guy has, if they're handsome,
and of course--Money. Sure, I have to screw some fat men
sometimes, every job has its downside. Maybe if you Western
women treated your men better they wouldn't need us. But
I'm sure glad you don't know how to treat your men, because
it's great for my business. Later, girls!!!
A REAL bargirl from Thailand who gave her input! Well, now
that we have a completely AUTHENTIC testimonial from a Thai
sexworker we can put this debate to rest!
Well, I don't know who is who any more, but I am damn sure that several people are using Mattie's nick both here and further up the page, and also that grape has them. I used to wonder when I wandered around at Uni why there were posters up about courses focusing on feminism as an issue on the internet (yes I am at Uni but am 40, bummed out of school at 15 and returned to uni as mature age so please don't assume that I am a niave neophyte). This thorn tree branch has well and truly shown me why. So I thank you, I was getting complacent.
How do I sign up for this course, "Feminism on the
Internet", Froggy? Sounds really practical. Oh these men
make me soooo mad. I think I'll get that advanced degree in
Women's Studies just to piss them off. Froggy, you Go Girl.
What exactly is a strap-on dildo, Froggy?
I began this thread some 79 posts ago making a simple
challenge: that Mattie and Froggy and their sisters in arms
go to a genuine go go bar or brothel and talk to the girls
in order to test their theories. It's apparant that M&F and
gang would rather stick to their comfortable theories than
confront the women that actually work in these places (and I
know Froggy is the big 40 and she MAY have already been to a
go go bar and who am I to presuppose she hasn't.) I have
learned that the M&F and gang do not compromise the majority
of women, thank God, in their views. I have also learned
that it is a complete waste of time to try to change the
views of women like M&F, regardless of whatever facts and
evidence you present to them. I have also learned that
Internet Discussion Boards can bring out both the best and
the worst in people, including myself, and are no
substitute for in the flesh human contact. It's Friday
afternoon, and as post 69 (great number by the way) has
suggested, it's time to go to the Pub. So from the heart of
Bangkok, Sawatdee Krap!
for your input.
Made this thread, now about to drop off the edge of the
universe, a more fruitful and enjoyable experience.
bye from the Big Wierd
Have you really learned something, Rat? It seems like you
haven't changed your original beliefs any more than Mattie
and Froggy. How do you know they haven't been to a go-go
bar, (obviously, you don't, as you yourself said, so why
bother saying that these women would rather stick to their
theories than talk to prostitutes?) and how do you know that
the majority of women don't share their views?
You obviously haven't "learned" anything, "Rat"; you, like
Mattie and Froggy, hold the EXACT same views you did before
this debate started. Also you have no way of knowing these
women haven't talked to prostitutes (as you yourself
acknowledged) so why bother saying that they would rather
stick to their theories than talk to women in the sex trade.
Seems to me you are sticking to your theories just as much
as they are. Easy to tell others they're not being flexible
or willing to confront their belief systems, huh? Finally,
how is it that you know the beliefs of the "majority" of
women on this subject? I'd be really intrigued as to what
"research" allows you to assert that one.
Sorry bout the double post!
Can anybody tell me honestly, if you practise safe sex,
what the chance is, of catching AIDS from a prostitute in
Thailand?? I am really interested to know, as I am hearing
conflicting stories.
Dear 666, I was here to instruct, not to learn. I live in
Bangkok and am thoroughly assimilated into Thai society.
You telling me about sex and prostitution in Thailand is
like me telling Froggy and Mattie about University Sociology
courses in Australia. Learn some manners. And yes, most
women are not like you, Froggy and Mattie, they are
open-minded and non-judgemental. I have no evidence that
the sun will rise tomorrow, nor that you're a sexually
repressed, prejudiced woman with no real knowledge of
prsotitution, but I can make use inductive reasoning to form
that conclusion. One more thing I (re-)learned here is to
never argue with an idiot. Final goodbye.
"I was here to instruct not to learn...." what an arrogant cunt!
"I am fully assimilated...." puke!!
What a total tosser - is this someone taking the piss or does this guy really think his shit doesn't stink?
He clearly never argues with himself or questions his own opinons- therefore the "never argue with an idiot' line.
Now that March (Spring) break is over I just wanted to check
in and see what was new in the Lonely planet world.
It was interested to see other Fruits on this branch. For
those of you who do not know Apple is common nickname in
Thailand. It is pronounced like "Buon" in English. I just
translated my name into English to make it easier, plus
nobody I meet in Canada could pronounce my real given name.
There your Thai lesson for the day.
Davo...Because Thailand is becoming one of the AIDS capitals
in the world, many people are travelling to Thailand to
preform research. Thailand based research has shown that a
single unprotected sex act with an HIV positive person has a
5.6% chance of disease transmisssion. IE if you have are
male and have sex with a hiv positive female there is a 5.6
chance that you will check the virus. So if you have
unprotected sex one with a HIV+ female there is a 5.6%.;
twice -11.2% etc. Studies with Females catching the
disease are inconclusive at this time, but it is widely
assumed that females have a larger chance of catching HIV.
Probably double.
There seems to be a different stains of the virus. Thailand
has HIV "E" mainly. Other reports in other parts of the
world estimate that the rate of infection is 3.4%. This
difference (3.4%- 5.6%) could be contibuted to different
stains or experimental design.
Futhermore, because of the heat and improper storage condom
breakage in Thailand is estimates at over 10%. But if the
condom is O.K. there should be a zero percent. Another
causion of warning for one of the first times since AIDS was
discovered in 1981 a male caught the disease from oral sex.
Robert... Thank you for the words of encouragement. I may
stop buy your office and introduce myself in BKK when I
arrive back home in May.
Back to studying
Apple
Thanks for the post here, but your math is a little faulty:
If the chance of getting AIDS from having sex with an
infected girl is 5.6%, then the chance of getting it from
doing it twice is 10.8864%, not 11.2%. I assumed you just
doubled the 5.6%. One easy way to see that logic is flawed
is that it would imply the chance of catching AIDS after
having sex 18 times is over 100%!!
~
More generally, if the chance of after doing it once is
5.6%, tehn the chance after doing it n times is
1 - (.944)^n.
So in the limit, the percentage approaches 1. After doing
it 12 times, the probablity is over 50%.
a real mathematician! wait! come back! fancy a pint at the pub?
Why do you people use such silly expressions?
do you honestly prefer "let's hit TGIFriday's/Bennigan's for a Bud/beer/cold one"? Or I could've asked "ready for a piss up"?
What I wanted to know is, were you interested in joining me in ingesting malted grain beverages at an establishment licensed for this purpose? More of a rhetorical question than anything, said to indicate approval of your post #88, as our spatial-temporal locations are probably incompatible for consumating this activity. My calculations show a 90% probability that we're both currently located in North America (given 100% probability for one of us), but only a 12.346 % probability of being within 100 miles of each other. Sorry, can't show you the proof for that, I'm publishing soon.
Post #91 much better. But one question - you seem to imply
you're from North America - where do they speak like that
"fancy a pint at the pub" or "ready for a piss up" in N.
America? Were you born outside the US?
first of all, I said "currently located in", which has nothing to do with "from". So, although your conclusion is correct, your logic is at fault; since you didn't show your work, you do not get credit for having the correct answer.
Since you didn't identify "they" it's difficult to answer your question. The Brits and Aussies speak "like that" whether they are in London, Melbourne, or New York. The Yanks generally do not, regardless of their location, unless they've spent a great deal of time in the company of Aussies or Brits.
I was born in Baltimore, Md. which was part of the United States at the time of my birth, though I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic.
I attribute my speech patterns to keeping bad company. Now, we can add some heuristics to my proof: I'm currently in Michigan, and you are ...?
Very amusing... I'm currently in the disgusting
metropolis of New York.
~
Curious about how you've come to call Americans "yanks" -
this is very Very non-American: usually, the only time an
American calls someone a "Yank", it's a southerner referring
to a notherner. You do keep bad company indeed. :)
well, there you go! we just can't get the spatial and temporal planes in sync! I was located in New York at a previous point in time. The disgusting metropolis? Is there more than one?
The problem with the term "american" is it's rather presumptuous of us to think of ourselves as americans, while excluding other peoples of the americas. If "american" includes them, then it does not accurately describe the set of people to whom I'm referring. The term "Yanks", while off-putting to US citizens, is generally recognized by them to mean "americans" when used by non-americans; Brits and Aussies immediately recognize the term. Basically, if I use "Yanks", I offend folks from the US, if I use "Americans" I offend everyone else (especially the Canadians.) Majority rules.
our next lonely planet ttyc group get-together is London (UK) on April 16th. (actually, there's a smaller one next week, but I can't make it.) I'm in New York on occasion, so we might co-ingest those brewski's yet. now, we're going to lose this thread unless we talk EVERY day. I'm on "your choice" quite a bit, but there's quite a bit of silliness and impersonations on that page. most of the "sidelines" postings are NOT mine. mine are the serious ones (relatively speaking) that stretch over 80 characters. let me know (here) what handle you plan on using, and I'll keep an eye out for you. I'm sure you'll find "your choice" extremely annoying at first, but after a few weeks you enter a zen state (not one of the 50 states) and you no longer notice. I assume you don't already visit there, because you didn't recognise me here. most of "your choice" is garbage, but every couple of days, someone posts a real gem. the ttyc (thorn tree your choice) board is very active. If you have a hotmail account, post it here, and I'll email you. I can't post my email address because it's a "real" one; if I start getting flamed or spammed, it'll take me forever to fix the problem.
Well, you see, I've made a number of very silly posts on
that TTYC thing before - I find the site to be mostly utter
trash, but do at times indulge in adding to the drivel.
Amazing what one can say in the anonymity that is cyberspace
(yes, it's completely immature to think that way, but,
well, I'm just a silly little kid). As for what my handles
might be, I usually use one of two handles, very much
related, and if your tastes in math are anything like mine,
then you ought to be able to figure them out without my
telling you. But if you do figure it out, you're bound to
get a very low opinion of me. Though, actually, oftentimes
my posts are removed by the authorities quite quickly.
~
hotmail account: ieng_sary@hotmail.com
I will be cowering in the air-con, you are entirely welcome
to join me. :-))
We can call up wichanee and have a good gossip.
doesn't look like you ever posted on the unofficial TTYC directory, "Which Country are You Calling From"; I have a copy of it in Word, and nothing interesting showed up for New York. I don't remember any handles like Descartes or Euclid or cosine or square root. Guess I'll have to be more observant. Then again, if your posts are pulled immediately... the only post I can remember being pulled in recent memory was that Christian-bashing one (that was a good one!) but I can't remember who posted it.
well, you said NY area, that could be NJ or Connecticut. Cris is from Connecticut... naaahhh! your math is way too good to be him. besides, he posts under about eight handles, not two. well, I wrote down your hotmail address, and as soon as I can figure out who you are, and be somewhat assured you won't spam or hack my account, I'll send you an email. a teensy, weensy hint would greatly facilitate this process. (such as, "one of my handles is _______")
hey, nobody here but us chickens (and this Richly dude, who's got enough to worry about here on SEA. ain't that right, Robert?)
No chance I'll get a low opinion of you. I don't even have a low opinion of Cris; he serves his purpose... but I wouldn't want him to have my email address :)
see ya
The guy was French and died really young - I've used his
first and last name.
~
You're right - I never posted to that where are you from
thread.
~
Some posts of mine that were removed quickly were
(1) wife-beating as a hobby rather than a problam
(2) where to take my kid if I wanter enter into sexual
relations with her (appeared on Kids to go TT)
(3) What's with all these bitches on SEAsia TT
~
Perhaps you disapprove - I was just testing the list
moderators.
~
You need not worry about my hacking or spamming your
account. I got over that back in college...
If you were trying to test the TT moderators how come you
consistently (according to the above 3 examples you gave of
postings removed) target women/ girls? Why not include
non-whites, or gays for example? Expand your horizons, you
could offend a wider cross-section of the population. Or
perhaps, testing moderators aside, you have recently been
rejected by a woman?
I only target women because I'm afraid of being a labeled a
racist or a homophobe.
~
I was rejected by a women last night, actually - an
amazingly hot waitress who was getting hit on by every guy
in the restaurant, including every guy at my table. She was
lapping it up, but, well, not putting out. So unfair!
I remember the wife-beating post! ok, you're not Cris (are you monitoring the Big Fight, sponsored by Plastic Paddy, between Cris and Cloutty??? It just started.)
all right, I'll email you. And if I get screwed, may you be reborn as a blonde ditz who can't balance her checkbook.
I have a pair of dirty socks with more character than a lot
of you. "Oh I can't get the sex in my country,I think I'll
go to a third world country where I can get it really cheap.
So what if I help create another fatherless child I will
never see him/her. If my girl dies of AIDS, I can always
find another." You are all trying to justify what is clearly
wrong. What if ALL of these asshole sex-tourists contributed
money to a fund for 3rd world girls educations instead of
exploiting them? Do you think we would have the problem of
AIDS? Street children? Go ahead and justify and enjoy
your sex-tourism. That is the only legacy your meaningless
lives will ever have.
doesn't it seem strange that the words prostitution, bar
girls and have provoked all sorts of passions. i think you
should all look at yourselves: those who've never been to
thailand, let alone those who've never been to NE thailand,
or even out of your home county. those who go to pattaya
every year for sex and a good laugh ( everymans dream ).
this question has probably reacieved more mail than every
other travel related question put together. WHY? because
its so interesting, and everyone thinks they have a divine
knowledge, some people do, but not many. you want chuk wow?
It looks like this "thread" is basically over (very large topic change in the last 20 or so). I read through it
quickly (but not quickly enough, wasted a lot of time). Agreed with a couple of the views of the "rat
wanker" when he started, but he clearly appeared to be a tosser down the road (bugger all to do
with the topics), thought "Big Stud" was the funniest bit; excellent visions of some beer-swilling ex
squaddie/fat Aussie getting worked up that no one believed he existed. The two women (Fraggy &
Motty (not the M.O.T.D. Motty of course, bizzare acid trip to think of him involved in this) were
disappointing, the usual spoilt-brat western views of blah..blah (they took a pasting, anyhow).
I guess the only thing that I am really moved to comment on is no.73 (I wrote down the no. as it's miles
back up the page to the posting). No 73 said something about rich western men going to Thiland for a sex
holiday is rich-country poor-country exploitation and is imperialistic. If you want to make a list of the
no. of ways the west (read America) is shafting the rest of the world, the list is fucking huge (think about
it: weapons, Nike, McDonalds, CIA-sponsored rebels + puppet regimes in vast sections of S. America
and Africa for the raw materials (metals, oil, etc) just so the Yanks can have there fucking 89cents/gal
petrol and live there "high standard of living" - which is excatly what everyone else on planet Earth wants
hence (e.g.) prostitution to make money). I agree it's a bit sad to go half way round the world for a shag
but it is very very low down on the list of ways that the west is being "imperialistic".
Incidentally, it was amazing how the egos swelled and swelled, you can just picture these people reading
the pages daily to see the "controversy" that they were generating and then telling their "mates" that
it is time to speak to their disciples once more ("all these people are writing to congratulate me"). Do
you think they have any friends? And finding a terminal to check your popularity rating while you're
supposed to be on your hols, that's a fuckin disgrace.
you people ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
you go to a foreign country and expect good hotel service
just because you have money. you expect good food, clean
sheets, your room tidied up every day just because you pay
for it. you expect to get carvings, paintings, clothes,
ornaments that someone has worked long and hard for, just
because you have money and can pay for it. you expect
people to take you around and show you places - museums,
churches, natural wonders - and explain things to you, just
because you have given them money. have you no shame?
you will burn in hell all of you.
thank god there are some decent honest people who just ask
for sex and nothing more.