Although I met some really nice people in Vietnam, on the
whole, the trip was a very unpleasant one. I have come to
the conclusion that people who enjoy Vietnam are either
1. Fucked in the head
2. Haven't been to enough other countries to know the
difference!
Here are a few tips from a long term traveller who has been
to a wide range of countries
1. Watch out for pickpockets. I had only been in the
country for 1 minute at Cao Treo when I had someone with
his hands in my pockets. This is amazing because the town
probably only has 100 poeple in it. They probably come here
because they know that our guard will be down after the
honest people in Loas. The guys weren't sucessful with me,
but I met an English guy who had something stolen there. Be
careful where ever you go. Vietnamese like to touch and you
don't know who is being friendly, and who is after your
stuff. There is a huge drug problem in the country with
heroin, and a lot of these people are desperate for their
next hit. Don't expect any help from the police. Apparently
the police will expect a bribe before processing your claim
and then won't do anything.
My second is gripe is the general greed of the people. For
example, I had one bus driver who wanted US$70 for a small
bus trip. I was able to winnow him down to 20,000 Dong, but
it just shows the hide that these guys have got. Ditto with
food. Nothing is set in Vietnam, and you will have to
haggle over EVERYTHING.
My third gripe is why the hell do foreigners have to pay
over 3x the price as locals for trains? No other country in
the world does it, so why Vietnam?
My next gripe is the amount of hassling that we recieve.
Unless you can go with a local, you will be hassled at
EVERY shop and by every passing local. There is no way that
you can window shop in peace. It is much worse than in
Cairo, Agra, Phuket ar anywhere that I have ever been. It
WILL get to you.
My final gripe is the attitude that the locals have to
foreigners. People are quite reasonable in the large cites,
but get into the small towns and villages and people are
real arseholes. I know beacuse I cycled through much of the
country. In China, if someone can't speak in English, he
will not try to talk to you (that's the way I like it)
unless you try to talk to him in Chinese. However in
Vietnam, in small towns, everyone will try to talk to you
in Vietnamese. If you cannot speak Vietnamese, within half
a minute, someone will crack a smart-arsed joke about you
(knowing that you don't understand) and everyone around
will laugh. This is OK for a couple of times (it also
happens in Indonesia to a lesser extent), but after the
first dozen or so times, it really gets to you. Maybe I saw
more small villages than the average tourist because i was
cycling, but you will recive the same treatment more or
less. Also don't expect people to be more reasonable in
small towns. I found them greedier and than anywhere else
and hassle you just as much. Just because they have never
seen a foreigner doesn't mean that they won't try the usual
tricks.
I am not say all of this to put Vietnam down. I am saying
all of this because if you are thinking of going there, I
suggest DON'T. If it is a cheap cultural experience that
you are after with lots of friendly people, I suggest
Laos, Nepal or Pakistan. If you must go, go ahead. But when
you come back, you will know why I wrote this message.
[There are 47 posts - the latest was added on Tue 11 May, 20:31]
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Intolerance such as you display here is a classic symptom
of Culture Shock. Long term traveller or not, it's a
definite sign that it's time to go home.
So Vietnam is a bit harder going than Laos. So what? Where
isn't?
And yes, I got pick-pocketed in Vietnam. Must have got
around 50 cents in dong from me - except that the idiot
stopped to count it instead of bolting, and so I snatched
it back. Makes for a good story.
Why shouldn't the locals try to charge foreigners more?
They try to rip you off, you try to stop them. Smile - it's
all part of the game.
And belittling foreigners doesn't only happen in Vietnam
(or Indonesia). I've heard it, or heard it implied (if I
couldn't understand) in just about every country I've been
to, including Europe, the US and Australia. It's human
nature. Live with it, or learn the language.
For someone who claims a great deal of experience, travel
hasn't really broadened your mind has it?
filmfan has said it all, one place i still want to go is
vietnam - i will find out for myself!
Thank God, we're all different. Some are getting upset over stuff other doesn't even notice. But
"Bryce" do have a point, and there's no reason for neither "Filmfan" nor others to bash him for
that. On the contrary, it proves that the latter are quite ignorant themselves, not being able to
sense (or just think it's unimportant?) what is actually happening to other tourists in VN.
Get this:
-
1. Check the VN history for a starter. Their attitide against foreigners might be explained by the
fact that they have been occupied by other nations for about a thousand years. Also, in a political
and economical context, there's no other nation that has gone through a what they have.
-
2. Foreign businesspeople (=mainly other asians) in VN have more problems than in any other
country. Not only in their professional role, but as civilians as well. According to a very unofficial
research made by an international consultant corporation with office in HCMC on average, and
from HCMC only, about 2 foreign businessmen leaves (replaced or not) VN per day by the reason
of mental illness, discomfort, etc. Either themselves, or the spouse or children. There is no other
place on earth they had found the same figures.
-
3. Tourism are declining. Tourist boards around the world are checking out the RETURNING
number of tourists as the most important figure. In SE Asia, Thailand is far, far ahead of the other
countries (much depending on BKK:s role as a hub). Then there a cluster of the remaining
countries, and Vietnam about as far behind them as Thailand is in front.
That was 5-6 years ago. Today, it's even worse for VN. Hence, the ministry in charge tries to save
their asses and are including local tourism into the figures. They rarely allow a tourist a 3 month
visa (that's what the tourist visa actually should cover according to their own rules), but give you
a one month stay, wishing either to cash in when you apply for visa extension, or to register you
as a "returning" tourist after you've been to PP for a new VN visa.
-
4. There is no secret that the average Vietnamese is as hostile towards foreigners than any
German, British or American redneck. He just express it differently. But sometimes, the famous
asian politeness and smile aren't good enough to cover their viewpoint. It was either Vo Van Keit
(former PM) or the ex-chairman of the party that 5 years ago said that the Vietnamese didn't want
the foreigners to come there, but had to accept it since they needed our know-how and money.
-
I haven't time to go on further. But even if "Bryce" appear to be perhaps a bit too gloomy, the
"Filmfan" apparently doesn't have a clue.
go
Lighten up a bit will you? You're depressing me.
Perhaps I don't have a clue. But at least I try to
understand an opposing view before dismissing it.
What WAS your point anyway? I got lost somewhere in the
middle of all that.
I can understand Bryce's view, although I didn't go to
Vietnam myself yet. But I had friends who went there and
told me exactly the same thing. Probably they had a culture
shock too ....
I was in VN during December: It sucks! I prefer Laos and
Cambodia much more. Vietnam is a total hassle!
And the point of all your bitching and moaning IS...???
Give me a break, who wants to read your rantings and
ravings about how much you disliked a country? Good on you,
so don't go back. Do you spout that much negative rubbish
in your oral conversations as well? Geez, bugger off would
you, nobody asked you what you thought of Vietnam, and
nobody really cares.
I have been to many, many countries through Europe, Central
and South America and Asia and Vietnam ranks up there as one
of my favorites. I was traveling alone there for about a
month and found the place to be terrific. Sure it was
challenging and yes there were times when I was frustrated
and annoyed with the touching and haggling, but to be
rewarded you must be challenged. I found Vietnam to be an
amazing country. The people are fiercely proud and
independent, and I salute that. Their collective history is
one that speaks volumes about their personality. The
countryside is wonderful, the children friendly, and the
language complex and beautiful. Yes, frustratingly so, the
people of Vietnam speak Vietnamese. So what? Smile, point,
nod your head. They try to overcharge you. Smile, nod your
head no, use your fingers, and then move on if you must.
Sure there are thieves, but there are thieves everywhere. I
had my lonely planet ripped off on a cyclo. Big deal. I
have faced much more adversity then that in other countries.
It is a rewarding country. That is my view.
I was in Vietnam in 1971 with a few friends from the USA, they all died there but we got a warm
reception especially from the Viet Cong. You young people have it easy (moaning about the crime and
drugs, come to Moss Side Manchester, mate). Can't say I'd go back there for me hols, prefer to
go clubbing in Ibiza.
So they didn't kiss your white ass like they have in other
countries, making you feel like a king Mr. Big Rich
Westerner. Deal with it. What makes you think that the
Vietnamese have any concern for making your vacation a
pleasant experience when the majority of the population
lives hand to mouth? No matter how poor you are at home,
Westerners who can afford not to work and travel will always
be considered rich in Southeast Asia.
I'm going to Vietnam this summer with my mother, who left 30
years ago during the war and hasn't been back since. I'm not
expecting Club Med, nor would I ever want it to be. I want
to see my mother's homeland for what it is, warts and all.
THAT is my reason for going.
stand the heat stay out of the kitchen as they say in
swahili. Who cares, Ive been back 5 days and thought it was
fabulous and will most certainly be back. Yes I have been to
Myanmar, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia and Laos and Laos
remains my favourite. I never at any time had hassles with
the locals except for a young lady who tried to short change
me with the exchange of $$$$$$s to dong,yes they will try to
overcharge but I was back in Oz 1 day and the cost of a
particular item dropped 60% because I queried it 4 days and
the cost of a small 2nd hand car dropped 50% because I once
again queried it. The moral is dont accept first price
offered and that it is not only Vietnamese who try to rip
you off.
Safe travelling.
Hey Bryce,
Need some treatment for you mad head.....eh?
I have been travelling in S.E. Asia for some time now, but
Hanoi was my first meeting with Asia, and yes, it was a
shock to see a culture as different as the Vietnamese. I
spent four weeks there, travelling from the north to the
south, and had a lot of both positive and negative
experiences. But people there seemed friendly (most, anyway)
and when it comes to haggeling: it's annoying but it's their
way of life - and you can only blame yourself if you really
get ripped off, you can always check the price level.
Remember that the average income in Vietnam is only about
250 USD: and if you pay more for a train ticket being a
foreigner, so what? For Westerners the amount of money is
still much smaller relatively than the amount a Vietnamese
has to pay.
About the Vietnamese trying to speak to you in their own
language - who can blame them for that? Not everybody is
fortunate enough to learn other languages...
Vietnam was very interesting, and if one takes the necessary
precautions (like not carrying all your money in your
pocket.. quite obvious stuff) it can be as much of a thrill
as any other country. It's definetly more fascinating than
other more Westernized countries in the region!
You can't pretend fact doesn't exist just because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. Of course some
foreign people still like VN (as I wrote before: we are all different), but the number of tourists
are declining (and so are the foreign business people).
-
The reasons for this are several, but the main one regarding tourists is the harassments you
encounter.
-
Since I've been living in VN 4,5 years, married to a local woman and with a 2 year old son, my
family is Vietnamese. Hence, nothing would please me more if the situation was brighter. Not
mainly because I feel sorry for the tourists, but because I want VN to prosper and that the major
impact after a visit should come be from the nice, warmhearted Vietnamese, not from the plentiful
assholes.
-
"Filmfan"; You think Vietnam "is a bit harder going than Laos"? A BIT???? (You think Judas
Priest, Iron Maiden and Fear Factory are "a bit harder going" than Michael Bolton?) Something
tells me you really don't know what you're ranting about.
Besides (I admit my previous posting wasn't very clear), you write "But at least I try to
understand an opposing view before dismissing it. What WAS your point anyway? I got lost
somewhere in the middle of all that."
If you like to brag about that you are listening to opposing views, you shouldn't be so absentminded
that you admit you didn't even read it.
---------------------
I think is good that people have the right to say what they
thought of a country. I like to read good and bad stories
as it prepares me for some of the challenges that I will
face when I arrive in a new country. It also gives me
reason to endure the hassels so that I may too, see the
good side. I think constructive criticism, helpful hints
and debate is what makes this site so good.
Going off about how so and so is a #*&@$#!@* idiot for what
they thought of a place is just a waste of space. If you
want to argue a point do it constructively by listing all
the good things you saw which overweighed the bad points
and made your stay a positive and ennjoyable one.
PS Sorry for wasting this space with non-travel related
issues. I am sick of reading posts from perople big noting
themselves when all we are really here for is to find out
information and get some advice.
Aaf, if its such a great place why did your ma leave in the
first place? The Viets are a bunch of greedy wankers and
the Yanks should have dumped more pesticide before leaving.
All this talk 'bout the Nam gets me unglued. Like crawling
through the tunnels all over again. The dank, close humid
hole, grenade in one hand and '45 + flashlight in the
other... Gooks round the corner!-every corner...
I enjoyed reading the post, and all of the replies below
(except, I don't know what to make of #17). Never been to
Vietnam but the variety of perspectives and experiences
make for a great cross-cultural read.
Here, a guy related his travel experience in Vietnam in a
very frank way. Posts like this should be welcomed, for the
debate and discussion it ellicits.
...how we all experience it so differently. I agree with
Filmfan - maybe you have to be more openminded to
appreciate it! A fuckin old pain in the ass clichee?
Whatever, I still think it's true. Maybe some people tend
to easy preys for carnivorian VN's.
.
Dani, I don't care if you've lived in VN your whole life!
Stop messing with people like Filmfan, who had a humble
attitude in his postings.
.
VN was not at all harder than Laos! The Lao people were
friendlier and more laid back, yes, but Vietnam is
rediculously easy to travel in! Just keep an eye on people
and a hand on your pocket in certain areas and you'll
probably be fine.
.
I met loads of nice and honest people in VN! One example is
the kid in HoiAn who (after getting money from our rented
bikes) ran back to my girlfriend with money saying: "No,
your man pay yesterday!", and then gave it back to her!
Baah...to much on this topic already. I shut up now/
Clownfish
"Clownfish": First, if you think I was "messing" with Filmfan and his/her "humble attitude" when
I expressed my thoughts above, I truly apologize. I thought I was very polite compared to other
posts at this site. However, it's anything else BUT being "openminded" when you dismiss the
original poster as "intolerant" and having a "culture shock" (oh, what a "humble attitude"!).
-
Second, whether a tourist likes or dislikes VN isn't about being "openminded" or not. It's simply a
matter of taste, never mind how experienced, broadminded or perceptive you are. Now, the
problem is that the amount of visitors to VN are declining as are the international business.
-
So, if you have such good experiences from your visit (prepared to spend another couple of
thousand and go back?), regard yourself as being lucky, because the MAJORITY of your fellow
travellers have been treated like shit and won't return. For them, that's no problem, because next
time they'll just delete VN from the initiary. Life goes on, right? But for the honest little kid in
Hoi An you are writing about, this FACT will eventually turn into a disaster. You understand that,
don't you?
-
That's why I believe that tourists (and business people) in VN have to stand up to any kind of crap
they get. We (hope you don't mind I include myself) have to recognize shit as shit, even if it comes
from a Vietnamese. Trust me, they know exactly what they are doing and most assholes wouldn't
dare treat a fellow Vietnamese in the same way they treat foreigners. Can you guess why? The main
reason is that they know they are getting away with it.
-
So, "Clownfish", "Filmfan" and other that enjoyed your time in VN: Congrats, you have been lucky.
Do not point your finger at others - with less luck - and tell them that their bad experiences are
due to "ignorance" or lack of "openmindedness".
-
To others; The majority of Vietnamese are great. But when scumbags are giving you problems, DO
NOT ACCEPT IT! Put your foot down! Show your anger! (do not for a minute believe that the "losing
face"-concept matters in the streets of Saigon. On the contrary, there's a lot of macho and flexing
"muscles").
Maybe, just maybe, will they (the assholes) understand the message, cut the crap and foreigners
will return to their beautiful country again, and your little pal in Hoi An will have a little bit
brighter future.
-
Get my drift?
-
Dani
--------------
i had a great time in vietnam last summer, and yes i am
prepared to cough up some more money and go again this
coming summer. and no, i don't consider myself "lucky" for
having a good time, because that implies that i shouldn't
have had a good time, i consider myself fairly normal. i
was harassed by countless cyclo/motorbike drivers and
merchants, i had to bargain for everything, i met countless
people who just wanted to talk, i made several good friends
who helped me to understand just how hard it can be to make
a living there.
yes, people do have a right to complain about a country, or
express their displeasure. but if they tell the rest of us
that we are fucked in the head, or that we just got lucky,
we're going to respond.
...because you like a country another guy don't is a very good reason to respond.
-
Regarding the "lucky" part; I tried to figure out if you agree or disagree with me. But yes, you ARE
lucky if you have that special gift and are able to ignore harassments that many foreigners in VN
have to face.That's a talent most haven't got.
-
If you think I'm wrong, then kindly explain to me your opinion why more and more tourists are
avoiding VN.
------------------------
Dani, sure you have some points and of course it doesn't
only have to do with openmindedness (which is good in all
kinds of travelling)
Taste matters. A lot.
For instance, I like the taste of those fresh dates I got
stuffed with in a train from LaoCai, by a female non-
englishspeaking gardener, while she DIDN'T empty my pockets.
.
Anyway, I liked it and you don't have to like it a bit.
Leaves more for the rest of us, right?
.
But Dani, call me stupid, but what disaster are you talking
about? (reg. HoiAn-kid)
/Clownfish
"Clownfish":
1. I don't know where you have read that I don't like VN?
2. Your two final sentences ("Leaves more for the rest of us, right? But Dani, call me stupid, but
what disaster are you talking about? (reg. HoiAn-kid)") are connected, and I thought most people
would understand that dropping tourism will mean increased poverty for large groups, i.e. your
little buddy in Hoi An.
-
As to move the discussion a bit further: Tourism (and foreign business) are two major revenue
sources for VN as for most other countries. After a peak a couple of years ago, both are going
downhill today (no disagreement here, OK?). According to "supply and demand", people having
their income from the tourist industry will be sacked or in other ways lose their source of
income. This will hit the regular, honest working Vietnamese as well as the few (but very
industrious) assholes that are presently pestering the tourists.
-
Again, according to "supply and demand" and how severe the loss of income will be, parts of all the
facilities, tours, guest houses, etc that you have been enjoying during your previous stays, will be
shut down. Existing enterprises will be forced to cut down on service and staff to make ends meet.
Your stay will not be as pleasant as it used to be, and VN will fall further down on the tourists
priority list. A clean cut spiral effect.
-
Prices for tourists will rise. When competition are wiped out (due to above), the few reamining
can charge whatever they like. You and "the rest" will have to pay more for less.
-
But my real concern is for the Vietnamese people if things doesn't change for the better. Take a
look at their history; pushed down by foreign powers as whole or partly for one thousand years.
Add to that that the Vietnamese are "fiercely proud and independent" as one replicant above claims
(and more aggressive than most people I've met. Not the replicant, but the Viietnamese). Then
check your history book or todays newspaper and you will see that the motion from poverty to
prosperity and back to poverty are one of the main reasons for very violent uprisings and wars
throughout history all over the world. Please note also how FAST and unpredictably they occur. The
ugly thing is that there is no guarantee that this will not happen in VN.
-
So, if you are fond of the Vietnamese, there's but two little things you can do to help them a teeny
weeny bit: make them understand what their "customers" like and dislike.
A) NEVER accept any shit from any Vietnamese (oh, if you're being charged 1.000 dong too much
for a bottle of Coke - live with it. I'm not talking petty crap). Raise hell (if you don't, they won't
understand that you are pissed off). You have my word that each asshole knows very well what
he/she is doing. Use your brain to gauge each situation, but NEVER excuse bad manners,
harassment or any kind of bullshit.
B) HELP the fellow travellers that doesn't have your ability to cope with difficulties. Listen in and
try to understand (you deem yourself being openminded, so no problems there, right?) what their
problems are, at this site or wherever you'll meet them. One day, you might find yourself in a
situation where you are having a glass of ruou thuoc with a guest house owner, and your knowledge
about common tourist problems might guide him in the right direction.
-
Sorry if it sounds like a lecture; all foreigners that travelled in VN before you and that did as A and
B above are the ones that paved your road and has made life for a tourist so much better than for
less than half a dozen years ago. Now, enjoy that, but try to understand that it's your turn to keep
on paving for the ones coming after you. Then, your little buddy from Hoi An might have a shot a
better future.
-
------
dani -- i could kindly explain my opinion about why the
number of tourists in VN is declining, but it would only be
my opinion. it could be the asian economic crisis, the lack
of infrastructure and nightlife, the hard transportation,
the prices compared it its neighbors, the government. could
be the timing; now the initial surge is over from after when
it opened itself further to tourism. perhaps the same type
of spike and decline will happen in places like laos.
perhaps it's the quality of the beaches. perhaps the food
is just better in thailand, the women more beautiful. i
don't know.
but what i question is that you seem to be blaming it on the
harrassment issue. perhaps i am misreading you? but in
your post (like #20), you say that if we enjoyed VN, that
are we lucky. the implicature is: we shouldn't have
enjoyed it. "the vast majority" didn't. can you really
assume that it's all (or at least mostly) the harrassment
issue? can you assume that the vast majority didn't, just
because they didn't make a second trip, and that this is the
reason, rather than other factors?
i hope you take this as a question and a debate, rather than
a flame.
1. Unpleasant experiences can of course occur in different shapes, recieved differently by
different people. Sure, some thnk the beaches are shit, other think the food stinks, etc. But what
unites the vast majority of disappointed tourists is the general abuse and bullshit (can't find
another, better word) that they are recieving from a minority (but a BIG minority) of the
Vietnamese. You have been reading this site for a while, you know as well as anybody else that 9
out of 10 critical posting about VN placed here, are about the harassments, scams and similar. Do
as I'm writing in post #24, listen in to your fellow travellers and learn.
2. Your logic about the "lucky"-thing I wrote doesn't make sense. (By the way; I am actually
flattering you, giving you a very nice feature you obviously didn't know you had before. Why so
upset?).
Let's say you and your pal goes VN. When you're leaving, he says he didn't like it, you say you did.
He says "lucky you". How on earth can you draw the conclusion that your friend means that you
shouldn't have enjoyed it? To me, it's more an expression of envy. Having read previous notes
written by you, I know you are well equipped upstairs. Use that, and don't put words in my mouth
that I don't recognize.
3. Your theory about cause and effect - that pissed-off visitors should come back to really
appreciate VN - doesn't work. If a guy spends a couple of months salary on a journey through a
country where he is being fucked with (sorry about language again. I'm not native English) more
frequent than in other countries, he won't return unless he's a masochist. He'll go elsewhere next
time. Again, you already understand that, I'm sure.
4. But I will push further regarding the paragraph above; I think it's the other way around, too.
That thousands of disappointed tourists every year are telling their buddies back home how they
were treated by the scumbags in VN (I repeat; they are few but notable). You, Tomaj, are telling
your pals about your endeavours, right? Giving advise to anybody planning to go where you have
been, right? The pissed-off guys do the same, and it's very, very likely (understatement) that VN
are losing tonnes of tourists that doesn't bother to visit the land of nuoc mam at all, not even for a
premiere tour.
5. Sorry if you think I've been flaming. I thought I was holding back. I think I can blame my poor
handling of English, again.
-------------
ok, dammit - aftere reading your first comment again, I see
what FACT you were talking about. First thought you meant
that the guys honesty would be a disaster for him... made
no sense.
.
Sure, I agree with you Dani. If people don't like VN, it's
really BAD for VN. And sure, if people behaved better, more
people would come. But I think there's something else,
maybe as important. :
.
What I disliked about VN was not anything about the people.
It's the fact that I didn't meet ENOUGH of the people. I
saw TOO many tourists! Because prices on local transport is
made expensive, which makes the deals from the "cafes"
economically reasonable. But many of them are BORING. You
get to the attractions and even to the next city with their
minibuses. Cheap, but not the "real thing". I met many
people who found themselves caught in that "tourist trap"
and then VN didn't turn out as they expected. It's when
you're out on a motorbike and meet the REAL locals (not the
ones you deal with to arrange a tour) that it's really
enjoyable.
.
I get the feeling that it's originally a controllingdevice
installed by the government. They see to that tourists go
to the right places and don't meet to many locals... bah!
Next time I'll rent a bike through the whole of
VN.../Clownfish
1. Glad you took your time and read what I wrote. My reasoning isn't so hard to grasp when you do
just that.
-
2. Regarding your comments on travelling, your are partly correct. Air and train tickets are
pretty expensive compared to what the locals pay, but at least train and bus tickets are still a lot
cheaper than in the western world.
If you like to go by their regular buses, go ahead. It's very cheap, even if they sometimes want you
to pay for two seats (westerners are often big, and the seats are made for small Vietnamese). But I
think you will have enough of that quite soon. Their schedule is a joke, the passengers are jammed
in like sardines - not only humans, but chickens, ducks, and so much luggage it's unbelievable. It's
hot and noisy, they stop every 15 minutes and dozens of vendors will board the bus BEFORE (!)
each stop. Further on, you have to go out to the bus station (there are plenty in i.e. Saigon), 3-5
klicks from city center, often at 5-6 a.m, and find the guy selling the tickets (an adventure in
itself). Not to mention the risk of becoming a nervous wreck due the skills - or lack thereof - of
the driver. Or sitting for 3 hours with a local eating rice with nouc mam (fermented fish sauce) 3
inches from your nose.
A few $ for the same journey in an aircon bus from the heart of the city will seem like a bargain
in comparison.
-
3. Price difference Vietnamese/Foreigners: This is one kind of the asshole mentality they are
getting away with. Their reasoning is weird, and they know it. For an air ticket, you'll pay approx
3 times more "because the insurance for foreigners are more expensive". So, let us choose
ourselves, then. Why do we have to pay more at museums? At some hotels? Swimming pools? It's
plain bullshit! "It's because you have soooo much more money than we have" is a common reply
from VN politicians. I will accept that way of reason the moment they'll let a beggar fly for FREE
because he has no money at all, and hence their arguing will be consequent.
(Lousy comfort for travellers, but they are doing the same thing to foreign business - perhaps
even more devastating. E.g. the well known Aussie corporation that was cheated (yes, cheated) on
US$ 700,000 by the tax authority. The corp. left VN about 2 years ago, partly due to that scam.
About 4-600 Vietnamese lost their jobs.)
-
4. Controling device? Perhaps. But I think it's more their mentality (especially the southerners)
that there will be no tomorrow: get it ALL and NOW. Squeeze out every nickel today, never mind the
future.
-
5. "Real" locals? Don't think for a minute that "there are places where they haven't seen a
foreigner since the war". It might be, but God knows where. In "remote" villages, they usually
flatter visiting tourists by pretending something like that. But on the other side: in VN as in most
countries, people in the countryside are more laid back and pleasant, so if that'¿s what you mean -
go.
-
6. Motorcycle. Yes, it's better way than buses (tourist or local), train or flying. Buy a Minsk,
2-stroke second hand. Cost you $3-500, looks like shit, gets you there, "everybody" can fix it if
necessary, and you sell it for $50 less than the purchase price after a couple of months. Though:
wear a helmet and drive VERY carefull
I forgot the most important, and why I threw myself into this discussion, and it's the same as I
wrote some posts on top of this;
When another foreigner shows his/her disappointment with VN, never mind how stupid they might
express themselves, DON'T counter with some crap about how ignorant they are and how clever
you are that had a great time there. It doesn't help anybody, and especially not the nice, wonderful
Vietnamese people. Listen to the guys, try to understand, give them tips and tell your Vietnamese
friends about the common tourist frustrations if such occasion occurs.
And when/if some asshole Vietnamese are giving you shit, let him/her know it. Be angry! If they
smile back to you (very common) it's usually NOT the kind of smart-ass smirk as we know it. For
a Vietnamese, the smile can express dozens of feelings, very often plain embarrasment not
necessarily because they are ashamed for your behavior, but because they themselves caused you
to react.
-
Chao
--------------
would of course not be people who never saw a foreigner
before. I'm not really that naive. But when you are shoved
around by a guide, going with a tour, most locals you see
around might be working with tourists, way too used to
them.
By real locals, I only meant people who have a normal
Vietnamese life. Not villagers in the most remote tribe and
not the hammock-sellers in Saigon.
.
Apart from your get-very-angry-policy (never found it to be
very efficiant in Asia), I think we pretty much understand
each other. Blow a kiss to the next beautyful Vietnamese
woman in an Au day you meet for me! (Maybe it'll be your
wife?)
/Clownfish
chαo anh dani,
okay, my pal and i go to vietnam. if my pal turned to me
and said "if you have such good experiences from your
visit...regard yourself as being lucky" (verbatim from your
post #20), i would turn to him/her with surprise (not upset,
i promise!) and say "why? was i not supposed to have a good
time?"
forget the metalinguistic inference of "lucky" for now.
from your comments, i concluded that you feel that the
majority of visitors won't return to vietnam, and the reason
is because of the harassment/scams. my cause and effect
post was positing that there are a multitude of reasons why
tourism can drop off, and i don't think we can assume that
there is only one main cause, and I don't think we can
assume that the "MAJORITY of your fellow travelers have been
treated like shit". (your quote again) i never said that
"pissed-off visitors should come back to really appreciate
VN."
yes, i have been reading this site for a while. but 9 out
of 10 complaints of *any* country are about the scams, or
general bullshit, encountered. then again there are people
who choose not to go back to vietnam or indonesia or poland
because they didn't care for the food, they've seen
everything they wanted to see, they just want to go
someplace else next time. these people don't write in and
carp about it.
i understand your compliments, both now and before, and
thank you. i just don't think that i'm unusually tolerant
of the hard-sell. many times i've ducked and weaved around
people trying to sell me something, and a few times i lost
it, yelling at them to bugger off. anyway, perhaps we are
just differing on the use of each other's word choices. i
hope so. there's no doubt that harassment in VN is a
problem, big or small.
1: Locals. Right. Much more satisfying. If you're in HCMC at the backpack-area, I recommend you
to enter the alley behind Rolling Stones bar, pass the 3-4 restaurants, the pagoda and then another
50 mtrs. On your right hand side you'll see a house where they sell some cigarettes and stuff, plus
they serve beer, tea, and easy-to-make VN food. Ask for Mr Phuc. He's a skinny guy about 50, and
you probably find him bare chested drinking ruou thuoc (not likely sober) together with a bunch
of cops. Phuc and almost all the cops (especially Mr Nhin) are great, dear friends of mine and as
honest and helpful as anyone gets.
They can serve as a "real" Vietnamese but within the city. Say "hi" from me.
-
2. My Get-very-angry-policy (hehe). I know lots of people think Asians are Asians. They might
have the urge to "keep face" in the Vietnamese VERY high society or in other countries. But the
average, half poor, Vietnamese that's trying to rip you off or are giving you shit don't think about
"keeping face" for a minute. Especially not in major cities and especially not in Saigon. Check them
out yourself. For them, you must be macho, shout and give them the eye. If you watch a VN kiddo do
something wrong and a parent sees him, the kid will likely get a beating, or at least one hell of an
oral bash. It can go on for half an hour. This is the average mans way to show anger, and if you
don't do that when a local are pissing you off, he/she will probably think you don't dare or that you
are too stupid or that you have so much money (if that's the reason) that you don't care. Thus,
he/she will "win" and will keep on doing the same to others.
-
This is what I meant by "previous visitors have been paving the road for you. Now it's your turn to
pave for the ones coming after you". Because lots of foreigners have stood up against some bullshit
(loud and clear) there are some difficulties for tourists in VN that you, Clownfish, won't even
know about.
-
If tourist after tourist are giving you hell because you are trying to cheat them, the likelyhood you
will cut the crap are increasing because you like to have a pleasant time. So, keep at it! (Oh, I don't
bloody mean you should pretend being pissed-off if you're not. Don't bother at all, then. But the
common reaction is the other way around; tourists are very angry, but says nothing and walks
away. That's when I want you to let the steam out. Give them what they rightfully deserve!)
Because, Clownfish, you will thereby in a teeny-weeny, but important way, help other foreigners
coming after you, and in the long run (as I argued before) that will help the Vietnamese and your
pal in Hoi An.
-
Ao day? Nah. Looks nice on teenagers, but I prefer the easy-to-access-pajamas kind of garments
they usually wear.
--------------
Hi, this is Bryce who wrote the orriginal post. I don't
regret a thing that I said and i am glad that a lot of
other people feel the same way.
I agree about not taking shit from anyone, but I hate
getting in conflict all the time. I don't agree in
voilence, but it seems that the only way to get a fair deal
in Vietnam is to threaten to punch someone out. But then
again, this could become very messy as many of these guys
carry knives etc and remember that the crowd will turn
against you in many instances. I suggest that unless you
can fight or are prepared to let yourself be ripped off,
don't go to Vietnam.
Finally, everyone seems to be saying that they had more rip
offs in the south. Thank god that I didn't go there.
Tomaj: I will not split hairs about the "lucky" thing. I'm pretty sure you understand what I mean.
never mind you disagree on this part. Makes no difference to my argument.
About declining tourism: I don't have the figures available. But they are out there, for all to see:
tourism are going down in VN but going up in most SE Asian countries. You suggested the regression
as a possible reason. That have struck all the countries about the same, and the tourism have
actually increased in the region (in total) after that because it made vacations even cheaper for
non-asians. Thus, the decline in VN is even more significant.
Finally, as I understand, I think you agree to my opinion in general and with few and minor
exeptions. Should have been interesting though, to read any comments on my A) and B) points
about what we might contribute to prevent further decline.
-
Bryce from Oz:
The world isn't simply black and white. There's a million nuances in between.
I sincerely hope most people reading my previous post understand that I've never launched the idea
- and never will - that one should either walk away from Vietnamese assholes or fight them!!! You
out of your mind? "Be prepared to punch someone out". Is that how you usually deal with people?
Are you so blunt you can't express anger without preparing for a fistfight?
Go get some counseling, man.
--------------------
I totally agree with you and support your recommendations
on how to behave to get rid of annoyance when travelling in
Vietnam (your get-very-angry-policy).
Nice to get support from a Vietnamese! Thanks. I just wonder where i.e. Tomaj went. Would have
been interesting to read his/her views on my get-angry-concept, too. But I dare believe that
his/her sudden silence is a sign of agreement (if he/she isn't so shrewed and waiting until just
before they delete this topic, in order to get the final word, hehe).
--------------------------
yes, i've been away for a bit, doing some planning. i'm
heading to vietnam next month, to stay in hanoi for a while.
i'd better brush up on my anti-harassment skills.
as for the get-angry policy, i don't know. i of course
agree with your general thesis, saying that people should
not stand for getting harassed or ripped off; that they
should do something about it. indeed, it would be hard to
argue against this, although people new to the country may
find it hard to tell when they are being overcharged. but
as far as getting angry, i choose not to; i'm not a
proponent of conflict theory. part of my rationale comes
from a buddhist inception. if you get angry, that reflects
on you and you alone; you can't blame it on someone else,
and i don't want to be a person who has anger inside of him.
when i was in vietnam last summer, i snapped at a few cyclo
drivers who chased me, and i always felt bad afterward. did
that affect them? make them think twice about harassing
someone else? i don't know. other times i firmly resisted
people, or refused their price, or corrected them, but
calmly. i had several good encounters this way, often
making friends with the people afterwards. does *this*
discourage them from harassing someone else? i don't know
either.
and perhaps this will not be the final wordààà..
I have to quote you:
"if you get angry, that reflects on you and you alone; you can't blame it on someone else,..."
- Well, if you think it's your own fault when a guy is calling you names, harassing you or trying
to rip you off, so be it. I think that's a viewpoint few tourists share (NB: understatement)
-
"...and i don't want to be a person who has anger inside of him. "
No. That was one of my points; don't trap the anger, let the steam out.
-
At the end of your post, you ask some questions. I think if you just closed your eyes for a minute
and asked yourself how YOU would react if the situation was reversed, you will easily know the
answer (I presume you're not a seasoned criminal, though. If so, that kind of experiment doesn't
work).
If you were treating people in a way that time after time after time made them angry and they told
you so, wouldn't it be very likely that you would consider/change your manners, compared to if
they didn't complain at all? Of course it would be very likely (understatement again).
Now (and this is my second point), isn't it realistic to assume that if more tourists in VN did just
this, quite a few Vnese would better understand how their guests and source of income (=us) like
to be treated, and thus, chances are that future tourists will enjoy VN as it rightfully deserves to
be enjoyed, and thus, the Vnese you have become friendly (and all others, too) with will stand a
better chance than today to feed their families and educate their children?
-
Consequently, you have been taking (during your previous visit) and will take(when in VN next
month) advantage of earlier tourists' efforts to correct ignorance, unfairness, bad manners,
harassment or whichever shape it might take. It appears as if you weren't aware of that.
-
Oh, "gosh" once again.
-----------------------
Fuck don't you people have alife to worry about?
Not because of a small thing that makes me not like
Vietnam.The population of Vietnam is 80 million and a
pickpocket empty your bag that is normal in your country
and everywhere.Dont get angry ! For Dani, if you feel
annoyed why not leave Vietnam ASAP.Make things easy ! Such
is life !In Hanoi sometimes a drunk tourist did not pay for
the beer,it is simple.You can not say tourists are not
honest.I like tourists and I like Vietnam ! Good luck to
all of you!
"gosh" meant "gosh dani, you missed me...."
no, i don't think you are responsible if another person is
harrassing you, but you do bear the resonsiblity for how you
react to it. your point seemed to be to release the anger
that is inside of you; mine is to work on not having anger
in the first place. why should i let someone make me angry,
especially when i'm not convinced it's the best way to
rectify the situation? why should i feel the affects of a
blowup? i don't want it. anger usually leads to more
anger; i'd rather just stay the person that i want to be and
not let anyone affect me in that way.
your other presumption seems to be that only anger will
correct another's behavior, and i think that's incorrect.
if i were the vendor/hawker (as you asked me to imagine
myself), my future behavior would depend on whatever method
is successful for me and what is not. if people refuse to
deal with me, to accept my methods, i would have to change.
it wouldn't matter if they got angry or not. thus if i
tried the hard sell or to overcharge, and they said no, or
corrected me, it wouldn't matter if they were smiling or
frowning; i'd have to change. and i'd have a lot more
respect for them if they smiled.
as to your comment about my "taking advantage of earlier
tourists' efforts to correct ignorance, unfairness, bad
manners, harassmentà", i, in my own way, am correcting it by
not taking it. it is just different from your way of not
taking it. "It appears as if you weren't aware of that."
"Teximan2":
Like another of the parrots shouting "get a life" at this site when the topic at hand is too
complicated to grasp for them, you jumped in a proved your IQ.
"A life to worry about"?
I don't want to worry about a life. I already ENJOY 3; my familys'.
Go get a cookie, Polly!!
-------------------------------------
"John":
If you have read what I have been writing, you would have understood by now that lots of
foreigners will do as you suggest: "...you feel annoyed why not leave Vietnam ASAP".
As my guess is that you are a Vietnamese, how do you think that would affect you and your family?
If you like to argue, grant me (and other readers/writers) the trouble of reading the previous
posts before posting your own comment. Thanks.
--------------------------------------
"Tomaj":
No offence, but I believe that your philosophy/religious basic view isn't very representative for
westerners reading this site. I respect that, and I hope you will find your way with your buddhist
inception.
I have no desire to start an argument about your private, specific outlook on life (as I wrote far
up; we are all different); I have been focusing on the average, western tourist, and a "normal" (no
offence here either. You understand what I mean?) western reaction.
Hence, I assume we agree on the goal however different our way to get there are. I think and hope
that my (our?) writings have planted a small seed of reflection in the minds of the few readers we
might have had.
Good luck with your vacation next month.
----------------------
I agree with Tomaj, about the non-aggressive aproach to
annoying Vietnamese.
Most of the time I managed to convince them that I wouldn't
agree on being had by them, simply by calm and firm reason.
Then if they wouldn't accept fair game, they would leave
and if they would, we would have a deal (in which maybe, I
would be cheated on 20 cents anyway)
Sometimes the situation can be solved with laughter. A
fruitvendor in Lao Cai tried to hide the numbers on the
scale as I wanted to buy some apples. I tried to move her
hand away to reveal the numbers, which made the other
vendors gather around and laugh. Later as I offered her
THIS money, as I take these apples (I had added a few
apples) or you take THESE apples and I keep the money, by
reaching out or pulling back my arms with the objects of
commerce, the old lady, refaced but also in laughter, tried
to get them both out of my hands like a 10-year old rascal.
After the little friendly fight (where we both yelled at
each other in English and Vietnamese) she eventually gave
up and let me have the extra apples. I had a great time!
But of course I agree also with Dani that there might be a
few situations where some people need a lesson.
1. Yes, still here. I thought the topic would have been deleted long time ago, along with dozens of
other. But the LP moderater obviously think it's important it stays for a while.
2. In your previous reply (#27 above) you admitted you hadn't read what I had been writing. Now
you've made the same mistake again. As it's the only thing you are commenting, It seems as if you
think that haggling about some item with a street vendor is the crap from Vnese I have been
writing about. On your behalf, I'm embarrased to say that it appears as if you simply don't grasp
(or really care about, or bothered to read) what I am arguing about.
-
In one post I wrote something like "if you are asked to pay 1,000 dong too much for a Coke, live
with it. I'm not talking about petty stuff". You think I'm so narrow minded that I maintain my
arguing here so that tourists in the future won't pay too much for their apples?????? That I'm
keeping this discussion going with the ULTIMATE goal that you can buy fruits without
bargaining??? Did you miss i.e. the $700,000-scam??? The price-differences???
-
In another I wrote that if you're NOT pissed off, then good!!! Have a laugh and a great time!!!
Where did you read that I wrote anything else? What I'm saying is that when you DO get mad, don't
start excuse your own reaction with a lot of "culture clash"-nonsense, GET MAD!!! Because the
regular, basic rules of politensess that we have in the western world, also apply on the Vnese. And
99,9% of anyone giving you a hard time (it might be authorities, Vnese companies, cyclo drivers
or anybody else), knows damned well that they are doing just that, and they will keep on doing it
because they are getting away with it.
-
Non-aggressive approach to Vnese? If it's your policy, so be it.
But since you deemed yourself openminded in previous posts, I take for granted that you know as
well as I do, that the Vnese (especially the regular guy "in the street") shows anger when he is
angry (exactly in the same way he laughs when happy, tells you that you're handsome if he thinks
so, etc, etc). "When in Rome, do as the Romans". When in Vietnam, do as the Vietnamese.
-
I quote you, Clownfish: "But of course I agree also with Dani that there might be a few situations
where some people need a lesson."
Where did you read that I think it's a "FEW situations"????
-
Apples................jeeez.......
-------------------------
The last comment on Bryce's most recent post ~May5th or 6th
Obviously I didn't read far enough down the board on my
break from work. I haven't been here for a few weeks,
because I was too depressed after returning from Vietnam
and Cambodia to read about it. Hey, I have a lot of
friends in those countries, and relatives of friends back
in Canada to visit...so I like it in Vietnam. But not
everyone can like everywhere. My family in Canada, hates
Canada and they have been threatening to return to Italy
for some 30 years now!! And I hate Taipei 40% of the time,
but I am not leaving any time soon. I know there is a deep
meaning in this somewhere.
Who the hell is Dani?!
And don`t let anybody tell you its bad.Your trip was not
great that`s it.I had the same feeling in Cuba and Bali.
And it was not a question of culture shock.I loved Turkey
Thailand and Honduras.I just hope that you ll like your
next trip a little more...
Cheers from Canada!
...not when I am in Taipei...what the hell do you think
that I am doing here anyway...that is on this site....not
in Taipei.....in Taipei, I am doing a sentence of 2-3 for
back taxes and an over-inflated student loan....