Okay, IÆve been agonizing over this for a while now and
would like to hear from other travelers. I love LP. I use
LP guides on almost all of my trips around the world. But I
think LP is too harsh on China. It seems like the authors
take every opportunity to put down the Chinese (the way they
dress, eat, talk, playà) and go to great lengths to advice
readers on how to avoid Chinese in China.
Being someone who knows China, I love and hate China at the
same time, as do many others who have something or other to
do with China. Yes, the Chinese have done terrible things.
They invaded Tibet, destroyed temples and monasteries,
claim the Spratley Islands (or coral reefs depending on the
tides), eat dogs, spit, make tacky souvenirs - okay,
somebody stop me please!! But they have also contributed
greatly to human civilization - they invented paper,
printing, gunpowder, and the compass - donÆt laugh, they
did, among other things. And they are trying really hard to
enter the modern world after decades of hardline Communist
rules. The process may be painful, but "When China
wakesà" (Somebody said Napoleon never said anything like
that.)
Give them a break, and as a guide book, give your readers
the chance to decide for themselves.
BTW, LP China authors take note: If Hohhot means Blue City
in Mongolian (Mongolian speakers, please verify), then the
Chinese did not mistakenly claim it means Green City. YOU
did. The Chinese call it Qing Cheng - Blue City, as the
word "Qing" in Chinese can mean blue, green, white, black -
depending on the context. Even the ubiquitous red little
"Concise E-C C-E Dictionary" has blue, green, and black
listed under the word.
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Yes the Chinese invented gunpowder, but I refuse to see
this as a positive step forward for civilization and
humanity, which the world should thank China for.
whether LP singles out China for spl treatment or not. More
often than not, China gets spl treatment -- from global big
business, Western politicians, strategists -- in a positive
way. A bit of negative glare can't hurt. Personally, I think
China gets more than its fair share of tourism seeing what
it has to offer and how it treats foreigners.
China is trying to survive and enter the modern world after
decades of western and Japanese invasion and wrong steps of
hard-line Communist rules during the last 100 years.
No matter whatever other people think about China, China is
China forever. I am Chinese, I love China.
Recommendation:
Door of China has opened to everyone, come and have a look.
You have your brain, you can judge by youself.
I just picked up the LP China book yesterday. I also found
much of the commentary rather harsh and would be a turn off
to anyone who's never visited China. I haven't read much of
the book, but I did find the Highlight section very
disappointing (esp. compared to the LP Thailand book's
Highlights section)
I think China has many beautiful natural scenes along with
historical sites that will appeal to many. Yes, it's a pity
that tourism is not as well developed as it should (more so
to China's detriment). I'm sorry to ask for recommendation
of other books at this site, but I don't know where else to
turn.
Now, back to bookie's comment, in light of how other LP
writers treated other countries such as Japan and Thailand,
I do agree that the tone for LP China was much harder.
LP does make a lot of commentary on the political/social
situation in the China book. I think the writers were
frustrated after spending too much time in a place they
don't understand. I met the Chinese-American writer(1999
ed.)while she was in Nanjing. She did not speak Chinese!
I lived in both China and Taiwan for 2 years. I can tell
you that there are some days when you do nothing but bitch
about how backwards it seems. These writers had the same
frustrations and decided to write it in the book.
I couldn't agree more with zzp. The LP China staff wrote
the book as some frustrated expats would. But they are
really robbing their readers of the benefits that come with
traveling: to learn, discover, and experience the
differences between cultures, good or bad. Helen, maybe you
can take a look at Roughguide to China but I've only used it
for another country, which was very informative. Like I
said, I love LP, so this is not an attack on LP but merely a
suggestion to repect every culture that we come into contact
with.
Kevin, I know where you're coming from, as many people like
to talk about modern technology that way. Note that M.
Curie discovered uranium whose derivative of plutonium would
later be used in nuclear weapons, and Einstein's theories
were instrumental in making the A-bomb. But theirs and many
other names of great importance have been immortalized as
contributors to humanity. So has the ancient Chinese who
invented gunpowder. We must not confuse great discoveries
with not-so-great applications. Plus, it was the Europeans
who invented guns if that's what you're getting at.
I am searching a good guide book to China. I found the
following reviews in Amazon.com. 2 out of 3 readers gave a
below average reviews:
*
Customer Comments
Average Customer Review: (3 stars out of 5 stars)
Number of Reviews: 3
*
A reader from Lulea, Sweden (gave 2 stars) January 18, 1999
To much opinions one can do without
It is unfortunate that most so-called "independent"
travellers keep a book from the Lonely Planet
series as their travel companion and they more or less
blindly follow its advice as an instruction.
Somehow one suspect that by now the publishers are aware of
this fact and hence they would subject the content of the
books to a more rigorous scrutiny. I am particularly
appalled to see the Lonely Planet's China being used/misused
as a reference book by many local Chinese. The phrase
"good places go bad, bad places go bankrupt" gets a new
dimension in the light of the active involvement of Lonely
Planet in its actual realization. I think that the book on
China, more than other books in this series, often shows a
remarkable lack of judgement. Their advice for caution is
sometimes so out of proportion that it only seems to
encourage mistrust. It often expresses a blatant
disrespect for the culture (including every-day life and
contemporary values of ordinary people) and the regulations
of the country. (The book issues "warnings" that the
attraction is meant for chinese tourists, i.e. it may seem
"tacky" for non-Chinese; it advises you to put in the music
cassette you brought from home if you do not like the music
they play on the bus (would this apply for Chinese coming to
Europe, for instance?); it gives instructions on how to get
a fake student ID to get cheaper tickets; the criterion for
a "nice place" is the quality of the western food they serve
or abundance of beer, etc., etc.). Apparently, the book
targets people who are not particularly interested in China
or Chinese culture, who preferably do better staying at home
listening to their own music and eating their own food.
The two stars rating is because of the informations on the
hotels and the maps you may need while not having time to
search for better yourself. If most of the highly subjective
opinions are omitted the book would not be so bulky; a fact
of great concern for backpackers.
*
A reader from Toronto, Canada (gave 2 stars)January 17, 1999
Inaccurate, sloppy, semi-literate, overrated
This book is only touted as 'the' book to have by those who
have looked at no others, and have spent little time in
China. Inconsistent in its presentation (opening times and
prices may be included or may be just forgotten), often
ill-informed and unhelpful in its descriptions of sites,
only partially and superficially updated from the previous
edition, this book not only fails to bring China to life,
but also fails to do what LP is supposed to be good at, and
tell you the cheapest ways to do things and the cheapest
places to stay. Lazy updating has failed to find many newer,
cheaper, and better value for money hotels and restaurants,
and transportation information is too sketchy to be of much
use. Not a few of us have already left our copies in the
trash in China. Those wanting a single volume budget guide
would be much better off buying Rough Guide, even though
it's older, and those wanting some genuinely helpful and
informed cultural information should buy Blue Guide (both
available on this site).
*
A shopper (gave 5 stars) February 4, 1997
If you're traveling to China, you need this book
The publisher, Lonely Planet, calls this book a "travel
survival kit", and they're exactly right. It includes a
wealth of useful information, including a brief history of
China, a short Mandarin phrase book, advice on things to
pack and places to see, a quick course on Chinese culture,
and lots of great information (including maps, of course)
for practically any place you might visit. I used this
book constantly during my trip, and would have been lost
(literally and figuratively) without it. It seemed to be
standard issue for the travelers I encountered. Even some of
the locals were impressed with "inside" information I found
in it, such as the restaurant and nightclub recommendations.
I also found the information provided about the historical
sites I visited was generally far superior to any
English-language descriptions I could find there. In short,
don't go to China without it.
I have to agree with some of the comments made above. I
bought the book because I have never been to China before
and these books are usually excellent. However, one thing
that struck me was there attitude to Chinese women. The
impression you get is that any women who comes and speaks
to you has some ulterior motive. They are either after
money or wanting you to pay for expensive drinks. Whether
people believe this or not it certainly puts a thought in
your mind and is likely to make people suspicious when they
are approached. When travelling I don't think this is the
best attitude to have. I just wondered if anyone had any
experience of meeting Chinese women abroad and how they
differed from the image the LP portrays.
I used the RG this summer, thought it was excellent. At
least consider using it.
The power of LP is so strong that many people were
travelling with the old edition of LP, parts of which were
frighteningly out of date, while I saw very few people with
RG.
Sorry, LP! I used and like LP in Thailand and Laos
however....
George
George
Most of the packers I met loved and hated LP, mainly because
anything they mention becomes a major tourist spot (example
Xiahe)or ceases to exist in the magnitude that they describe
it (example the Mongolian food stalls in Beijing, so
disappointing!). I'm not surprised to hear that one of the
editors didn't speak Chinese; trying to buy a ticket for
Hohhot was amusing given the fact that it's pronounced
Hohehote-far different from LP's stab at it. You can't beat
the amusing antidotes though, and in the spirit of kissing
up, I just bought LP Ecuador last week.
I am going to china in Mar 99 & i had heard that the LP was
the best guide, so i also bought a copy. meanwhile, my
friend who travels to France a lot heard that the French
Guide Bleu was very good & she bought a copy.
while the LP has been very helpful in getting background
info & language phrases etc, I have found the the Guide
Bleu is much more positive about china. if a place is
really interesting/enjoyable, then they say that. LP seems
to hold back - nothing is ever briiliant (except perhaps
the cheapness of the hotels!).
I have also found the way LP only sometimes includes travel
times etc, very frustrating - it's impossible to sort out
an itinerary without this info.
If you speak French at all (there is an English version,
but it seems a lot thinner i'm not sure that it's made by
the same people), then I would recommend the Guide Bleu (in
addition to the LP which has more info on hotels & food
etc). it contains more detailed info about places to visit,
suggested itineraries & travel times. this info is
invaluable to the 1st time visitor, who doesn't know what
to see, how long to stay in each place?
Natasha
You can't please all of the people all of the time, you know. No matter how hard anyone tries, their own biases will creep in. This should be kept in mind when reading any guide book for any destination.
Why is it that some people will never learn that a guide book is simply that - a "guide" and no more? If you can't think for yourself, then stay at home and watch tv, dammit!
You seem like a pleasant sort, and not at all above
yourself.
...without gunpowder (mentioned by some as a dubious cultural contribution from China) we wouldn't have...
** * ** * * * * * * * * * * *****
Fireworks ! !
I found LP's China guide to be a disgrace to the company
that has some rather good books on other countries. The
sarcastic comments start a little funny, and then get
plainly gratuitous and annoying. I firmly believe that one
of the few ways to get a lot out of China is spend a bit of
time studying the language, and then go traveling around
with an open mind. I took my university in Beijing, and
then, once fluent in Mandarin, had an awesome time traveling
all over. I met some foreigners along the wy who showed me
stuff in the LP guide - it was an embarrassment to whoever
wrote it - showed complete ignorance. China is an awesomely
majestic country that is often hard to understand (I'm not
claiming that I understand it). Closed-minded approaches
will always lead to frustration. I seriously recommend LP
completely rewrites their China guide.
On a non-political note, I enjoyed the objective views a
lot of you who have been to China actually. Traveling is
for pleasure and learning, whoever bearing a hostile view
while traveling is either making a fool of him/herself or
must be bearing a military surveilence task :) Maybe the
author of LP China guide had a bit of both.
Now here's the more political note, if you will: a
country's political system (unless like Americans traveling
at war time to Iraq :) has NOTHING to do with you traveling
experience, dispite all the propaganda. Any tourbooks that
makes lengthy comments on such subjects are worthless. Now
Tibet is part of China, and Mongulia is not. Does that make
a democratic Mogulia easier to travel and more spetacular
than Tibet? The overly propaganda'ed "historical" sites and
museums in the U.S. definitely doesn't worth a look
compared with the spetacular views of natural beaties such
as Alaska, Glacier park and the Grand Canyon. If you decide
to visit or stay in a place, just be open-minded and enjoy
it.
LP is right on most things! But not on all.
It can't. China is too big, that's no problem, but it
changes too fast.
I have the latest LP China (from 1998) and it's OK. Some
parts are outdated. But basic info is OK.
Negativities
Only one thing bugs me: the numerous references to
'overcharging'.
I live in HK and go to China maybe once a week. I never
have that problem.
On its political comments, China has a bad track record
human rights, just say so. The worst thing which ever
happend to China was the communist party.
It is only fair of LP to let people know what they're in
for with regards all of the negative things mentioned.
Sure, once you've been there for a while, you can start
getting used to it, maybe even learn to love the place, but
it is a huge culture shock for the uninitiated westerner,
and I think it's better to err on the side of caution. LP
guides only give us advice; they don't actually tell us
what to do or what to think. And if they didn't reckon
China was a worthwhile place to visit, then they wouldn't
bother publishing the guide, would they? I found myself
wishing I'd looked at the China guide more thoroughly
before I went there - then I would have been more prepared
for the staring and spitting and rudeness, as well as
everything else that pissed me off during my visit. In
spite of getting pissed off, I still appreciate Chinese
culture, and am glad I made the trip. Having negative
views about a place doesn't mean you can't also have
positive ones.
Yes, loneplanet is a bit harsh about China on some things.
HOWEVER, it's better to be this way than not. Remember,
backpacking is a rough & tumble way of travel, even more so
in China when you are a westerner with limited knowledge of
the culture & languages. Even for those trained in Chinese
language/culture, travelling in China can be a very rude
awakening. It's better to be a little wary than a little
naive.
The ultimate indictment of China's inconveniences is the way
ethnic Chinese travellers from abroad deal with travelling
in China. I've had many relatives & friends who, even with
familiarity of the language and the culture, are unwilling
to go it alone in the country, and harp constantly on the
health risks, filth & crowds, and possibilities of being
robbed & cheated, while travelling around in China. It's
worth noting also that people from Western countries get
cheated less than ethnic Chinese. Ethnic Chinese from
abroad are automatically assumed to be rich, are not
considered foreigners, and are deserving of no special
treatment by either the government & locals. Western
(caucasian & African Americans) backpackers I've known, and
who have travelled through China, reported few if any
problems, and also indicated to me that there is an
understanding between the government and people in the
tourist trade that foreigners are not to be cheated, and
reports of it will be severely punished. A French-Algerian
woman stated to me that this "understanding" made China,
after Japan, the safest place in Asia to travel if you are a
single woman travelling alone. Ethnic Chinese, however, are
not given such consideration.
The second safest place to travel in Asia? Are you sure?
Whilst I was in China in Jan/Feb of this year, a Japanese
girl from my boyfriend's class at the Renmin Uni in Beijing
was murdered in Leshan. Stabbed to death by someone trying
to rob her. She was travelling alone. I know it's just a
one-off, and that these things happen all over the world,
but let's bear in mind that life is cheap in China, and not
everybody committing such crimes is brought to justice. It
certainly frightened me, and made me even more wary. I
felt scared the whole time I was there, even before hearing
of the murder. I was constantly looking over my shoulder.
Am I unusual in this? I'd like to know what other people
think.
Not to sound outrageously cynical, there's always the
possibility she got knifed in part because they figured out
she was Japanese. The shtick I got about relative safety
was from Westerners. Other china veterans have indicated to
me that out on the street there's still a buttload of
anti-japanese resentment. She probably got knifed to death
on the suspicion of being rich & Japanese. It's an awful
double standard, but as my last post indicated this is China
for you...
Rachel, you are not unusual to need to keep looking over
your shoulder. You are a foreigner and not as street smart
or knowledgeable about the local culture. So it is natural
to and also smart to err on the cautious side. In time you
will know the ins and outs and get a good sense of when
things are cool or when you gotta steer clear of certain
people or situations.
It is just a personal opinion but I think that Japanese
visitors, in general, are less culturally aware and less
careful when in foreign places because they are not subject
to the harsh realities of desperate people living a very
competitive existence. Everyone don't flame me for
expressing these personal opinions.
China is generally safe, but you must still be careful and
vigilant. Just like when my countrymen go to Los Angeles or
some other foreign place. The social environment is very
different to outsiders and the rules -both written and
unwritten take some time to know.
As a Chinese myself (made & born in China, parents are
still there), I used to live in Europe (well,it was
England, to be precise) for 7 years and have been living in
North America since 2 years ago. Nine years spent in the
West give me an great opportunity to learn how to
appreciate the wonderful world we are in. I can make
myself a croque monsieur and a cup of Oolong tea for
breakfast while reading my favoured newspaper, The Guardian
for news and witty columns. My bookshelves are loaded with
books written by Charles Simic, Irvine Welsh, Doris
Lessing, William Manchester and my life-long possession -
Gu Wen Guang Zhi, a collection of classical Chinese
articles with wisdoms which are still highly rated
nowadays. All these allow me to gain a glimse of the
complex but stunning world. Harsh experience is, of
course, a major turn-off. But, just imagine the ability to
understand and comprehend different cultures and sets of
value which previously are embarrassingly remote to you.
To me, my overseas experience turns me into both a fierce
China-lover (not the CCP, though) and a weird anglophile.
Why not? While many of us here are so lucky to be able to
live safely and sufficiently, to travel around the world
and to taste the memories from the traveling, don't forget
there are still many people are being killed and ethnically
cleansed, like the Kosovars, people in Rwanda. Remember,
harsh experience in China or some or less developed
countries after all, is only physical. Once you overcome
it and be more prepared, you will realise how trivial it is
to make a big fuss on something different or less
sophisiticated. China is a fascinating country. So is
every other single country on the world map. Toss your
sense of supriority away and remain grateful for what we
can do. I am sure (too sure) that I sound like a
patronising tosser and a pretensious bourgeois. But, isn't
it what we actually are? (Only joking, no offence!)
Why on earth eating dogs should be considered negative? At
least we have some tasty compensation for their shitting
everywhere...
I wish you wouldn't talk like that about eating dogs. You're
making me hungry.
About the cheating - if you live in China, you slowly learn
people try to cheat you very, very often.
Very often, the taxi driver will ask you whether you want
to go left or right, and if you don't know, you can bet
your life he'll take you the long way.
Shanghainese prize themselves on being able to outsmart (ie
get a highly favourable price, ie cheat) anyone, not just
foreigners. So they're not ashamed to cheat you; quite the
opposite - it's a sign of skill.
You don't realise this at first. It took me a year. Having
a Chinese girlfriend who is on your side, and identifies
these things for you helps with that too.
So we have to assume that the Lonely Planet writers are
experienced in China so realise a lot of the time when
someone tries to cheat them.
But someone who isn't so experienced, who's maybe just
travelling for a month or so, probably gets cheated a
number of time (in small ways) each day - they just don't
realise it. When I read "I was in China for 20 days and no-
one ever tried, etc, etc", I think "yeah, right".
Maybe the question is, when we're talking about a small
amount of money anyway - so small a traveller doesn't
notice - should LP point out that it's happening. Maybe the
travelling experience is a happier one if you don't know.
Or maybe then you're missing the real experience.
In general terms, I've got the 99 edition now and I think
the balance is just about right.
I got a copy of the 98' LP guide to China and after reading
through most of it, I thought the writers were maybe
racist. It couldn't be anything else, I've travelled
through SEA for over 7 months now and none of the other LP
guide books had the same 'tone' towards the locals, let
alone a special section entitled 'Racism'. The same shit
happens everywhere, although in different ways and in many
cases a little more subtle than what LP described of the
Chinese. Even in Singapore I was cheated. I think maybe
the writers should write about another country, maybe a
Scandanavian country or maybe just about northern Idaho.
This is in response to the patriotic Chinese who says "go
see China for yourself." I am a Chinese-speaking foreigner
who has travelled extensively in the PRC throughout the
1990s, seen for myself what the country is about and
believes LP has every reason to be critical of China.
A lot of foreign travelers go to China with misconceptions
about what the country is all about. Overseas Chinese go
there expecting to see their ancestral villge welcoming them
back and foreign tourists go there expecting to see an
exotic wonderland with Chinese flute music and echoing
temples, etc. The reality is seldom like that.
China is a poor country which spends much effort trying to
keep its people from starving or revolting. There has been
very little effort to preserve the culture or environment in
the past five decades, and in the early part of the regime
much of the culture was snuffed out. Forget burning incense
and relaxing in the courtyard in the traditional ancestral
home - nowadays its traffic clogged streets, illegal
restaurants and other structures, shoddily made apartment
blocks and an overwhelming desire on 90 percent of the
people to make money.
Making a good impression on tourists is not high on the list
of priorities, and the tourists it would like to attract are
short term, rich foreigners who join group tours and stay in
expensive hotels. There is very little infrastructure for
backpackers or people with modest means. Take transportation
- Railway tickets on certain routs are often impossible to
get (Yunnan - Shanghai, Lanzhou - Turpan, etc.). Bus
operators regularly overcharge white foreigners. You
protest, the bus drives on. On one trip I was even told to
get off the bus, even after I had paid for a ticket, to make
room for a new Chinese customer!
Hotels - many hotels listed in Lonely Planet have an
official policy of charging foreigners extra. I went to a
hotel in Gansu with a HK man, a civil servant who made many
times more than I. he paid the Chinese rate, I paid double.
No recourse. Infuriating.
Service and comfort is usually bad everywhere you go. I am
not complaining, that's a fact, and I feel sorry for the
Chinese who have to put up with all the time. Maids pound on
your door at 9 am to clean the room. Bus and train seating
is horrible, and road safety is not a consideraion. Non
smoking sections? Don't make me laugh! Hygeine at
restaurants is practically nonexistant. Bureaucracy, for
instance, for extending visas, seems arbitrary.
And if you can't speak Chinese, you will have a very
difficult time.
So LP has every reason to be harsh on China. It's not ready
for backpackers or tourists with limited means, period. The
infrastructure is not there, and Chinese "culture" usually
means museums, "dead" temples, and patriotic pamphlets that
ignore or distort history. Foreign tourists are barred from
freely travelling where they want to go, and are routinely
ripped off.
For LP to paint a rosy picture of the country would be a
disservice to its readers.
Let's flip a coin and see who is right.
I have lived in China since 1989 (I came here two months
after Tian'anmen), speak the language, know the people,
understand their psyche (I know, sounds boastful, but how
are you going to prove me wrong?), have travelled
everywhere except Xinjiang (this summer, though!), know
thousands of people from 'all walks of life' (the Chinese
media loves this phrase), so may I say something here?
1. H. Lasker (29) is absolutely right.
2. Sid (27) is right too.
3. YPL (24) is right too.
4. Rachel (21): I'm sorry, this really seems to be a
Japanese thing. Every year a number of Japanese get killed,
no other foreigners. Sad truth, but it doesn't make China a
dangerous place.
My opinion? --- China is a terrible, wonderful, racist,
kind, humanrightsviolationist, friendly, dirty, loyal,
polluted, funny, frightening, safe, getting less and less
safe, beautiful, overcrowded, scenic, mentally fucked up,
energetic, great, narrow-minded country that is definitely
worth a visit.