Just back from Tibet. Barkhor now selling Titanic T-shirts and mobile phones.
A lot of the religious artifacts I have seen there before (at the equivalent time
of year) I could find nowhere in Lhasa (or Gyantse, Amdo, Xigattse). The
Chinese have made a lot of changes there in the last few years (and a lot
more there before, of course), the most noticeable for me was between '94
and '95 with the 30th anniversary "celebrations" of the "Liberation" of the
the Tibetan People by the PLA.
Although the PLA probably massacred a few million (1/3 of the pop.) when
then Tibetan uprising started, and 80% of the monastries and holy buildings
(or Dzongs - the defence sites in the south) were mortared, it has to be said
that the life of the Tibetan people is at an all time high. The number of Tibetans
with vehicles, the aforementioned mobile phones, all sorts of electrical goods
and plans to make money under the entrepreneurial schemes allowed by the
Chinese is growing fast. The western medecines, sanitation, electricity, houses
(rebuilt of course so the Chinese have a map of the internal spaces in Lhasa),
roads, schools, & materials is truly impressive. Numerous westerners come in
hating the Chinese and they (or "Indian" Tibetans with Western passports)
stir up trouble which causes problems (imprisonment, deportation (e.g. Mongolia)
and even execution) for the Tibetans who live there. Even the Dalai Lhama
recognises Tibet cannot be free, and looks only for an atonomy for non-
'defence" side of affairs. Amnesty Intl. look only for freeing or better treatment
of the prisinors there.
So where does that get us? The west did fuck all in 1950 when there was a real
chance for change (the CIA dropped a few planeloads of leaflets in the early 50's
in uninhabited marshland explaining (in badly translated Tibetan) the need to rise up
against the evil communist Chinese (thanks for the tip USA, we would have taken it
lying down otherwise!). I think the Beastie Boys (through Grand Royal) have done a
lot for indepedent music in the US (badly needed), but they, and all the whining
Hollywood "stars", who are suddenly being hip and "campaigning" to free Tibet
(and buying quality Tibetan artifacts at US$ 100's from e.g., the Tibetan shop in
the east Village - NYC) are doing bugger all in the way of helping things. The only
thing that remains is that, like the three gorges and everywhere else, if you want to
see what it looked like before development ("development is bad" you cry from
your air-conditioned car on the expressway), you'd better get over there quickly.
In the meantime, the Tibetans seem happier than ever (in their (short) lifetimes.
It seems there is no reason to "free Tibet". Or am I missing something fundamental here?
[There are 21 posts - the latest was added on Thu 20 May, 3:52]
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Finally, a sane intelligent post on Tibet. I hope more
people are like you and take the time to travel to Tibet
and learn the real story. I am going to school in Beijing
for a year soon and i plan to travel across China,
including Tibet.
Although I can't say I have visited Tibet, I am living
pretty near the place, am from the U.S., and have enough
understanding to throw out a couple of my own opinions.
Sure, Hollywood actors and rock stars are probably dreaming
when calling for a Free Tibet. They are also no doubt
jumping on the cause celebre of the moment, thrilling as it
is to get involved in such a polarizing issue and rub
shoulders with such exotic notables as the Dalai Lama. But
give them a bit of credit: if not for their whining, fund
raising and general PR stunts, Tibet probably wouldn't be on
the radar screen in the halls of power and Mr. and Mrs.
Middle America might have even less of an idea of the issues
related to Tibet. As long as people keep pushing and
raising hell, the Chinese government will have to show the
world they are trying their best to deal with the situation.
Of course, as you yourself proved, Tibet is a money-maker
for tourism so it's also a good idea to keep things
devloping in that regard. Finally, about the development of
Tibet: nothing like economic empowerment to keep a people in
line...no need to be disaffected and unhappy with a regime
when you are too busy getting rich.
I'll agree that some people see an inverse relationship
between development and the charm of a particular place.
It's mighty unfair, though, to make a blanket criticism of
people sitting in cars with cell phones wishing Third World
countries remain in the Stone Age for their own traveling
pleasure. One objective (if not, it should be) of all this
Free Tibet business is to preserve Tibetan culture, which,
depending on your viewpoint, is in danger of being
steamrolled by Han sensibilities. Right or wrong,
"developed" or "undeveloped", history, culture, and "the old
ways" must be preserved lest a people forget who they really
are.
As you rightly pointed out, the Chinese have done a lot of
good and a lot of bad in Tibet. The Dalai Lama seems
resigned to hoping for greater autonomy. What do you think?
Despite the political realities, if given the choice, do
you think most Tibetans would want a "Free Tibet" or an
"Autonomous Tibet"?
we don't know what tibetans want, do we? tibetans in tibet
probably want free trade before free tibet, so they can have
motorcycles, cell phones, tv's, etc., things their brothers
and sisters who live in the US or Europe already have.
Their brothers and sisters who live in the US or Europe, who
already have motorcycles, cell phones, tv's, etc., on the
other hand, probably want a free tibet before free trade.
It's all about priorities, as said by Mr. Maslow.
something fundamental : the tibetan way of life before
the Chinese invasion. It was just the european middle age,
whit priest and monks owning the land, young boys joining
the monastery (6 years old) - you can see that in Lahdak,
the Indian part of Tibet. And the governement was a
religious one. Like in Vatican, Saudi. Do you like ?
China invasion is a kind of modernity
(Am I an old commie rat ?)
You ask, "do you like?"
Who the hell cares if we like- it is not our country.
Tibet was something as you described so far as the social infrastructure before the invasion, but, it was the choice of Tibetans, wasn't it? There was, and had been, no great social unrest. Quite the opposite.
As for your claim that China's "invasion is a kind of modernity"....I don't even know where to begin in telling you what is wrong with that ignorant statement. Mass murder; emasculation; sterilization; destruction and defiling of sacred objects of a pacifistic religious society.. are these things your idea of "modernity"? I think you should visit a Tibetan organiztion/community somewhere in the world--- Kathmandu, Dharmsala, New York, Zurich... maybe they can offer you a different perspective.
An old commie rat? No... I doubt you know enough about Communism to be that.. but you are vasty uninformed (I hope) to have reached your conclusion. Fruitbat.
Would you like to visit a land that once was dominated by
large religious establishments filled with monks and nuns
who did no productive work and lived on offerings and
forced levies from the surrounding population?
Would you like to visit a land where much of the arable
land was controlled by these establishments, and where the
peasantry was forced to work to support them?
Would you like to visit a land where the religious
establishments shone with an almost indescribable splendor,
while most of the populace wallowed in ignorance, disease
and squalor?
Would you like to visit a land where armies destroyed these
great complexes, murdered or drove out the monks and nuns,
wrecked their artistic treasures and confiscated their
wealth?
Would you like to visit a land where the ruins of these
ancient establishments still stand as mute reminders of the
cruelty of history?
Would you like to visit a land where these events are now
seen as a necessary, but unnecessarily cruel, part of the
process of modernization and development?
You would?
Then come to England, come to France. Remember Henry VIII,
and remember me.
You see, Mr. Poindexter, there is some truth to what Mr. JF
says. It is, of course, not the entire truth--nothing is.
But if the postings on this very interesting branch can
teach us anything, it is that nothing, anywhere, is ever as
simple as we think.
This is an interesting post. I like reading it. Thanks,
people. Now I wish a Tibetan in Tibet would say something.
Please! I know there's internet available in Lhasa.
While we are on the subject, can anyone explain what is their historical justification for claiming Tibet is part of China? The only info I have access to is the LP on China, which is frankly hopeless, (I wonder if this is deliberate so that you don't get it taken off you when you arrive at the airport?) Seems to jump from around 1650 with Tibet (never having been part of China up to that point), as an independant state governed by the Dalai Lamas, to 1911 and the collapse of the Qing dynasty bringing a period of independance. Huh? What happened inbetween?
I visited Tibet November 1998, the Tibetans are very
retricted on what they can do, they can't even have a photo
of the Dalai Lama, I was asked soo many times for a photo.
The one person that means soo much to them and they are
deined of him. The Chinese are ruining Tibet by cutting down
the forests taking water from their sacred lakes which have
droped their levels of water very quickly and will vanish if
it is not stopped. The Tibetans in India would love to go
back to there home country, What is Tibet without the
Tibetans. The Tibetan women were made sterile in the
chinese hospitals when giving giving birth who has a right
to do such a thing to anyone. The Monestaries along the
Tourist route have been repaired as the Chinese know they
are getting money for it but all the others are in ruins and
the monks are starving as they have to give soo much of
their food to the Chinese. I have read the book Tibet My
Story which has been written by the Dalai Lama's sister and
a book everyone should read if they are interested in
Tibet!!!
Hey there buddy boy. Just to clear things up, I never refuted the validity of all of JF's comments, just those which I addressed. I did not say that there was no truth whatsoever to be found therein. Simple? Who said it was simple? And as far as modernization and development, don't you think that the Tibetans themselves should have made that choice themselves, in their own time, if it was to be made at all? I think that all of those interested should read the autobiography by HH The Dalai Lama, "Freedom in Exile". He gives a Tibetan perspective (obviously), but demonstrates his immense compassion and understanding towards his oppressors. A great read, and very informative.
Also, if a deeply religious group of people choose to live in a culture dominated by their beliefs, who are you to judge? Was Tibet better off before the invasion? Ask the Tibetans. I gave suggestions above as to where you could find several hundred thousand of them.
Another thing; why do you presume that JF and myself are men? :o)
Your last post was a good and thoughtful one. Perhaps I
was misled by your first post, in which you described JF's
comments as "ignorant" and even "vastly ignorant" and
finished by calling him a "fruitbat"--not a very
complimentary name, I'll wager. Anyway, I thought you did
reject JF's claim that China's invasion of Tibet was a
"kind of modernity". My earlier post was designed to
provide food for thought by pointing out that very similar
tragedies occurred in Western countries during their
periods of modernization and state-building. There does
seem to be some sort of historical pattern. Your point
that the Tibetans should have been able to choose their own
path is a good one, but again, remember that in France, the
Catholic rebels of the Vendee (Brittany) had long
considered themselves a separate society from the rest of
France, and that the crushing of the revolt by the
Revolutionary government can be seen as an attack by a
foreign power, too. Again, historical parallels. As for
your point about assuming that you and JF are male, guilty
as charged. I do have to say, though, that I have never
met a woman with the first name Poindexter. I suppose it
could be your surname, and, if so, my apologies. As for
JF, well, I thought about typing Mr./Ms. and just didn't do
it. Gender brain lock? Sorry... Write more!
So how long did you stay in Tibet to have seen all this
truth? Were you present in the clinic where they sterilized
the women? What other books about Tibet did you read
besides the one written by the Dalai Lama's sister? I'm
just curious.
Thanks to Robespierrre. I do not speak very well english,
you are the good man for the defense.
And I agree with the comparison of Vendee. You could tell
'Ireland 1999' too. Cause the Catholic Church in Ireland
tries to forbid divorcee, birth control (through pills, not
sterrilisation) ... Well, the theocratic societies are
(in my mind) the worse. And i say that the Tibetans heard
about democratie only when chinese came. Idem, the jews
in Germany heard about equality and laic society when
Napoleon invaded the rhenan country (note for ignorants :
it was before Hitler). Note for German people : no, I do
not intend to give you another lesson about the Shoah ...
He, quiet boy : the history of China + Tibet is not simple.
Tibet is the mountain, China is plain below. And when there
is
nothing to eat in the mountain (bad year), the guys from
mountain invade the plain. It is not ideologic, it is
stomac.
So, Chinese try to control the Tibetan power, which means
the Big Lama, because this power is teological. The same
in Europ (about 1200 ?) when Frederic (German Emperor) tried
to control the pope, and the french king made another pope
in Avignon (France) (and another made a third one, anywhere)
JF (a french male. Means Jean Francois)
No I'm sure the history is not simple but I should be up to it. The problem is whenever I have asked this question before the response has been a random attack on Europe, with hardly a mention of Tibet at all, why is this? Please note my question was intended to be totally unbiased, I have no idea of the history, which is why I asked in the first place. I just wanted to know the basis for China's claim. What they have actually done there since 1950 is another matter altogether though, and I don't doubt there have been some horrors. By the way are you really French?, there can't be many people outside the PRC who would try to claim the communists brought democracy to Tibet
Vous me n'avez pas exactement compris. Je ne suis pas un
defenseur de la Chine. Je voudrais seulement faire
remarquer que ce n'est pas seulement question d'une
barbarie chinoise contre un pays paisable et fabile, mais
aussi d'un conflit tragique entre une societe en train de
moderniser et une autre essentiellement du Moyen Age (comme
nous le disons). Choses pareilles ont ete faits parmi nous,
et nous les avons oublie, ou, si nous nous les souviens,
nous les trouvons essentiels pour le modernisation et
democratisation de notres societes. C'est vrais, mais ces
choses sont aussi des crimes--en Bretagne, en Angleterre,
en Tibet. Contradiction etrange, complication funeste des
affaires humaines! Point final--la Chine a apporte le monde
modern a Tibet, bien sur, mais elle n'a pas apporte le
democratie, pas de tout!
The Chinese are even more restricted at what they can do!
They can't read pornography in the public! Just to mock you.
The Indian-Tibetans are not REAL Tibetans! They were the
people that caused a lot of death in Tibet 40 years ago,
And some of their followers. They were the ex-slave owners
and decendents. And in their little towns in India they
still live a life like this. They want to go back - to own
Tibet again. Sure, you are an Mexican and now you want to
go back and claim Spain. Try that. You want the Tibetans in
Tibet to go back in their life and be religious slaves? No
thank you. There are a lot of monks by life in Tibet now,
but there are also a lot of Tibetan pursuing other way of
living, such as opening stores and becoming an athlete, by
their choice.
The miserable days of hatred are long gone. Don't put an
hope that civil fighting and life-lossing will do you any
good.
is just the same they do in any part of China:
modernisation, progress, economic growth blabla,
almost regardless of what existed before.
I am french, and from the West.
And to Quiet Boy : Chinese (= chinese army) did not bring
democracy in Tibet. No army brings that. But Chinese
propaganda brought the word and the idea of democracy.
The Dalai Lama (or the Pope, or the Ayatollah XXX) would
never do such a mistake. They know that people finally
mean that words means something.
So you mean that the Chinese justify their annexation of Tibet not by any historical precedent, but because they claim to be bringing democracy and improving the lives of the Tibetans?
"The Indian-Tibetans are not REAL Tibetans! They were
the people that caused a lot of death in Tibet 40 years ago,
and some of their followers. They were the ex-slave owners
and decendents. And in their little towns in India they
still live a life like this. They want to go back - to own
Tibet again."
I don't find this to be an accurate statement. When I
visited several of the Tibetan communities in India, I was
struck by the compassion the Tibetans have. They set up
orphanages to care for abandoned, orphaned and poor
children. They took in the newest batch of refugees and
gave them all their material necessities and job training.
There did not seem to be some giant hierarchy or people
taking advantage of others. And what, pray tell, is a "real
tibetan". Born of the soil of Tibet and treking through the
Himalayas to reach India, does that make one lose their
Tibetan origin? No, of course not, it makes you an asylum
seeker.
"Sure, you are an Mexican and now you want to
go back and claim Spain."
That is a deficient comparison. The Spaniards who settled in
Latin America were not forced out of Spain; rather, they
left to seek fortune and a new crusade (read the letters of
Hernan Cortes to the monarchs)A better example, might be
Mexicans claiming the southwestern states of the U.S. that
were ill-gotten.
As for the rest of your post,the Dalai Lama has never
advocated violence. Civil disobedience, perhaps, but that is
an effective tool of social change. It started the ball
rolling, here in the U.S. against segregation. The Dalai
Lama has even said that a completely free tibet without
chinese is not likely, in part, because he has compassion
for the settlers who have raised their own families there.
The Tibetans like anyone else should have the right to speak
their own language, wear their native dress, practice their
religion, have equal access to education and freedom of
expression to show the Tibetan flag or hold a photo of the
D. Lama. People should have the right to self-determination.
And the rock stars jumping on the bandwagon. Why are their
motivations so important and long as they generate interest
and raise money to help. At least they are trying to help.
Michelle Morgan (yes my real name, now I expect the local
misogynist to say something rude, have at better me than at
the poor highschool student some people were so incredibly
rude to)
Just come back from Tibet within the last week. After we
managed to shake off our Chinese tour guide, we befriended a
monk at the monastery who showed us around for the following
days. The people we met told us first hand what Tibet is
like. The Chinese make spot checks in the monasteries to
make sure they don't have political pictures (eg Dalai
Lama). You can't even buy a Tibetan - English dictionary in
Lhasa! So they have to learn English from a Mandarin text!
Yes, China has increased the standard of living in general -
but at a high cost. Most of the shopkeepers in Lhasa are
Chinese not Tibetan. The Chinese are testing and dumping
their nuclear capabilities and waste there.