Does feminism exist in Japan? (Maybe that's an oxymoron)
I'm referring to concern for women's issues, ie: equal pay,
the "glass ceiling", sexual harassment, child care, birth
control etc. After 2 years here I am no closer to
understanding why women in this 'first world country' put
up with conditions that western women refused to tolerate
30 years ago. Intelligent women friends of mine spend
their days in tight polyester uniforms serving tea while
chirping like mindless parrots. In some cases, they are
more educated than their supervisors. The "lucky" one got
married and now passes here time cooking and waiting for
her husband to come home. Her job dismissed her.
(And then there's the continued denial of reliable birth
control! Although I hear that may change...)
I enjoy living and working in this fascinating country and
I love the friendly, charming people I have met. But I
would never, ever want to wake up to be a Japanese woman.
My foreign friends all feel the same way. Isn't that a
telling sign?
I heard that the only feminist group in Japan has closed
it's doors. Are Japanese women not concerned about these
issues? I will be leaving Japan soon, so I am not directly
affected... but it saddens me that so many of the people I
care about are living such narrow lives with few
opportunities. Is this the typical western viewpoint? I
imagine men's lives are similar..? Just wondering. It
seems that quite a few of you out there know a lot about
Japan. Thanks!
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I am a Japanese woman, 25years old.
It is a kind of pain to think that I might have to spend
rest of my life as a woman in Japan which keeps very
traditional society.
As history of feminism tells us, always same women prevent
other women to be equal to men.
Some Japanes women still have a dream to be a "Bride" and
"good and cute" wife...
Actually 3 my close friends, 25 years old, are married and
seem like enjoy cooking and waiting for their hasbands...
And many Japanese guys still like that.
It is difficult to think that marrige is to live together
with a partner. In Japnan marrige for women still to be a
house-maide with sex eventually...Am I too extrem?
I don'think this situation will change so soon.
Education and system of society have to be changed first,
and Japanese people have to see other First world.
I have seen some wonderful couples in other countries.
They are helping each other. They help his (her) partner
because she is a wife(a woman) or he is a hasband (a man).
They want each other feel good.
I envy you because you, elizabeth, are not a Japanese woman
living in Japan.
Such a predictable question
and a reaction. So
generalizing and so
stereotypical. Also, this is
not a discussion panel. Hope
you guys keep topics to
travel-related stuff.
Ignoring person no. 2 above (if you don`t like the
discussion just keep surfing, buddy!), I found Elizabeth and
YH`s posts raised an interesting topic.
Rest assured, feminism is alive and kicking in Japan
(witness the huge Women`s Issues Center built in Aoyama next
to the UN University), and making considerable gains.
Affirmative action in particular seems to be out of control
in local government offices (although statistically women
lag far, far behind in occupying senior managerial
positions).
After working in a Japanese office for two years, however, I
began to wonder whether the Western concepts of feminism are
really what a large number of Japanese women are looking
for.
Quite a number of 25-35 year old women working in my
building (OK, maybe not a very thorough sample group) seemed
more than content with the 8:30-5:00 working days, no
expectations or demands to do overtime, little pressure (and
even less responsibility) at work, etc. As one woman
succinctly put it, she was only there to find a reliable
husband, get married and live on "easy street".
I`m sure there must be Japanese women out there who are
confident enough to back their own abilities and cut away
from the cultural and social expectations, but I`m still
waiting to meet one.
I have met several very intelligent Japanese women in Hawaii
(where I live). I'm not talking tourists here, I'm talking
about the ones who are living and studying in the US. Not a
single one of them ever plans to return to Japan now that
they've seen the opportunities available to them outside the
country. I think that says something...
Dear Tom,
Man, have you got rose coloured spectacles or what. The only reason that Japanese women put up with the shit that they do is because they don't know anything else or don't think they'll ever attain anything else. Have you seen the way typical Japanese men act? Like spoiled boys with weird sexual appetites. This country is not just oppressive and backwards, it's positively crual and unusual. Why do you think that once a Japanese woman dates a foreigner she never goes back to the other side? The fact is, you cannot speak about Japanese people like they are one species. Japenese men are a completely different animal from Japanese women. It's such a shame too, because so many Japanese women are lovely, intelligent human beings and the most many of them can hope for is to be shacked up with some wretched salaryman for the rest of their days. I'll tell you, you want a little insight into the way things really work in this country? Read the Wages of Guilt by Ian Buruma or The Rape of Nanking by a Chinese American who's name I forget. Elizabeth, as a foreign woman I say, get out while you can. Every single foreign woman I know has been sexually harassed or assaulted at some point during their stay. Okay, I admit, I've had a few Kirin Lagers (not a bad beer, by the way), but most of what I say here I really believe in.
Elizabeth--
I am not sure what you seek thru your post since you ask
several questions and then answer them yourself. Is there
feminism in Japan? Legally, YES, socially, no way. The
Japanese Constitution is more progressive than the American
one--women by law have full equality. And need I add there
is a glass ceiling in western countries also, and women
outside of Japan don't get equal pay either.
However, Japan is not socially equal--and probably won't
be anytime soon. Just 140 years ago Japan was a completely
feudal society with a caste structure--and women always take
a subservient position to men. Women are raised to be
housewives and mothers; men to be breadwinners. I don't like
that nor defend it, but that's the system.
In fact, there are fewer women in the Diet today than
compared to just after WWII. Asking why do Japanese put up
with it is putting your own cultural and social standards
on them--a very SHAKY thing to do. Japanese are taught from
day one to be docile sheep--you ask about injustice and
their opinion is, yes, it's wrong. Ask what'll they'll do
to change it and you'll get blank stares. That's why in many
areas Japan is still in the 1950s.
And while Laffcadia goes off the deep end calling Japan
"cruel and unusual" (TRY the Middle-East where some women
can't even drive a car and get their genitalia ripped off
their bodies) his counterview of Japan leaving a lot to be
desired is quite true. However let's grow up here--not ALL
Japanese men treat their wives like shit--none of my male
Japanese friends do-- and a few of my ex-girlfriends ARE
dating Japanese men. And comparing present day Japanese
society with the Nanking Rape is silly--but I will say they
have yet to own up to it. I think I heard one saying a while
back though that seems to sum it up--the only ones who don't
appreciate Japanese women are Japanese men.
I lived in Tokyo for a short time (2 months) and found
sexual politics there startling as well. I met a Japanese
woman of my age (25) who spoke of having been sexually
harassed by her boss, and later kicking the photocopier in
her rage. She said she supposed it was an isolated
incident. When I said that sexual harassment on the job was
commonplace in all the countries I'd ever visited or lived
in, she looked genuinely surprised, and made a really
surprised sound. Either that or she pretended to be
surprised, or I mistook her reaction as surprise. Aside
from this I was shocked to see soft-porn mags in the local
corner stores that featured teens, and cartoon images all
over the city of a schoolgirl with her skirt being blown up
revealing her knickers; it seemed to encourage the eroticism
of sexualised images of children which I find EVIL. On the
other hand I did also visit a lesbian bar (though I'm not
one) and found this to be a very woman-positive space.
I lived in japan for 2 years..
I am a male from Istanbul Turkey.
Japan really confuses me, even now in retrospect, after
years.
I tend to see the whole country, men and women, to be very
very different from any other place on earth. I have been
to a lot of countries but had never been culturally shocked
as much. I have a feeling that Japanese know this and they
want to keep this as it is. I really believe so. Anyone who
is not from amongst them - specially if not slenty eyed -
is someone to always approach with some sort of a caution.
They force you to be part of the system. The same applies
to the case of women. I think they are lovely. I have been
very comfortable with them. They are gentile and kind and
peaceful. They are not aggressive at all. Unlike the men.
I think there is nothing wrong with the women in this
context but with the men. They exploit this nature of the
Japanese women.
Who must be traind are the men not the women methinks.
Cheers
Last year in a really, really, remote part of the world, I
met a Japanese woman by chance at a control station of a
national park. We started chatting and as our plans were
the same, we decided to spend the next 5 days together
strolling through the hills. This is what I learnt...
.
Mid-forties, married with kids in twenties. Went abroad for
first time alone at 17/18 to India for about 6 weeks and
hasn't stopped since. Has been all over the world,
following the hills - occasionally with her husband but
usually alone. We had some 'tough' experiences.
.
Me thinking stereotypes asked - isn't this unusual for a
Japanese woman. She sighed and said no - virually all her
friends live the same way (tho not going to the same
extremes she does with her travel and hills). It's normal!
.
Are we seeing things in only the way we know how! Remember
USA has never had a female president but Pakistan has!
There are no benchmarks.
Right on Aussie Girl!!!!
Societies are different in every way and comparsions, when
you have no standard set on criteria is virtually
impossible. Sure Japanese society is tough on women in some
ways and sure Japanese women don't have the economic
opportunities that might exist in the West. On the other
hand, it's a lot safer for a woman to walk down the street
at night.
I know many successful, career women in my line of work
though I realize this is not "normal" nor statistically
relevant.
Anyway, generalizations/stereotypes are dangerous things.
What's wrong if japanese women think mostly about cooking
and pleasing their husbands? Most men enjoy such women -
and it gives a refreshing alternative to the opinionated,
obnoxious Western woman.
I just read that Japanese women will finally be permitted
access to birth control pills - some 30 YEARS after they
have been allowed in most other developed countries. This
speaks volumes for the state of women in Japan. This is the
same country, after all, that allowed Viagra in after a few
months of testing for all the impotent men, while women
have waited for more than a generation for access to safe
birth control. I found that to be absolutely ridiculous and
it makes me mad!
Dear Rob,
I respect your efforts to give a balanced view of Japan and I've seen some of your intelligent posts before, but I think you go a little far in trying to portray the situation vis-a-vis sexual equality as anything but a disgrace in Japan. Firstly, while in Germany and The United States, women account for 49.1 and 50.2 percent of administrative positions, respectively, in Japan they account for less than 1 percent. And do you know how many Japanese women are in the Diet? Come on, Rob, as I say, wake up and smell the jin-cho-ge. More importantly, Japanese men feel that it is their natural born right to sexually assault women. I knew a gaijin woman who was raped by three Japanese men. When she went to the police station to report it, the police stripped her down and sexually assaulted her as part of their investigation. And, do you know what percentage of young Japanese women in this country are afraid to ride the trains because of chikans? Rob, this country is deeply sick and the situation is atrocious. Trying to paint a rosy picture is not only misleading, it's almost insulting. Furthermore, you cannot explain it away by saying that cultural norms and so forth are all relative. Some things are absolute and we have to judge them the way we see them once we get a clear enough view.
This country is sick,politically,environmentally
and sexually. Enough said.
many who come this web site love to talk about Japan, indeed about Japanese women.
Is it your hobby to criticize Japanese?
Japan is such a reasonable country for you : you can speak the country badly with no objection.
This is world trend for decades.
I┤m so tired of all American women criticizing a country
they don┤t understand at all...
Please try to understand that just because a country has
different customs and values than America it┤s not
necessarily wrong...
Samurai - I completely agree. Using Western feminist
standards to judge Japanese society shows an ethno-centrism
that you would expect traveler's to shy away from. All you
girls who don't like the feminine way Japanese women are,
should take a good lesson on how to comport yourself around
men.
Dear L. Hernia
It is rather strange you call my view of Japan
"rosy"--there is quite a lot of criticism in my previous
post. Compared with western Europe and N. America, Japan has
a long way to go. But compared with other countries in the
world, such as the Mid-East, Japan is rather progressive. So
it depends on what your comparing, really.
Your views of women riding the train are rather
extreme--the chikan problems are very widespread, and
over-tolerated--but you will still have millions of women
ride the trains in Japan every single day. Probably most of
them will encounter some sex harassment sooner or later, but
to think of it as some daily occurance for every single
woman (as you imply)goes too far. The rape and police
harassment also exist, but this too is more of an extreme
example and does not represent the norm. I know lots of
women who went to the police to report a crime and they
didn't get strip-searched because of it.
So too is your notion that men feel it is perfectly OK to
assault women--most DON'T think that way. But they do look
down on them and if you look at all the lolita comics and
how women are trash asking for it in AV videos and the like
it's no surprise to see where this outlook comes from.
If there were assaults on every street corner every 10
seconds as your hyperbole suggests you'd never see any
Japanese couples anywhere at all. And of the thousands of
women I've met in Japan not one has ever been assaulted.
I never said there is sexual equality in the country--and
if you got that impression you need to re-read my first
post. You also may be taking Rob the Journo's posts as mine,
which they aren't--different person.
--Rob
Dear Rob M,
Let me ask you in all sincerity and respect: Do you have some kind of vested interest in convincing yourself or others that Japan isn't all that bad? By any chance are you married to a Japanese woman and thinking of settling down in Japan for the long term? Or, does your work require you to be here for the long term? Also, you described yourself as a journalist on another post. Can I ask to whom you submit articles or photographs. Thanks,
LH
Hands up those who think (1) LH has had too many Kirins, or
(2) if she`s so convinced that Japan is as misogynistic as
her babble implies, she should pack up her bags and go back
home?
LH, where do you come from? Just curious
I am another 25 year old Japanese female... I've lived in
western countries, in the United States and Australia for a
little while. As some people pointed out, I think some
opinions posted here are a little one-sided.
Some my Japanese friends of similar ages wish to keep
working and some wish to be a fulltime housewife. All of us
may need to work really hard whatever our choice is, but,
at least, we can choose our life and, of course, someone to
marry to or not marry. And I think it was basically same in
the countries I've been.
I was told by some American women they envy Japanese
housewives while I was in the U.S. In Australia, my male
Aussie share mate used to tell me that I should find a rich
Aussie boyfriend - well, I never did:) I thought that he
often sounded more conservative than my aunt who keeps
telling(annoying) me I should look for a good husband
rather than a better job.
An American Proffesor at my college often asked us
(Japanese students), "What's YOUR point of view? you all
should have YOUR point of view." when someone in the class
said he/she agreeed with someone. Each person got his/her
own idea. Why don't we respect their points of view?
There ARE housewives they are happy with their position.
Even, some intelligent women and/or western women are happy
with that.
AND, I have many nice Japanese male friends! They may
change their attitude if the relationship between us
change(friends to male and female), though. But the same
can say to anyone of any nationality.
I know that there are some difficulties for women at work
or at some other circumstances in Japan VERY well, but I am
happy to be born as a female here!
I have a freedom to choose! Many Japanese men, the eldest
son like my younger brother, are usually expected to
inherit the family and take care of their parents at home.
SECOND time now; Rob the Journo is a different person from
me--ask him if you want some articles, but please don't ask
him to put them on the thorntree!!
I don't need to convince myself of anything; I came to
Japan with no knowledge of Japan at all, no preconceptions
of any kind. I see, I compile, I deduce. I will in fact be
starting my 12th year in Japan very soon--yes, there are
several things that get my dander up, and yes without a
periodic vacation out of Japan I think you'll likely go
insane, but I'd like to know how long you've been in Japan,
how soon it was before you started throwing around such
hyperbole about Japan being The Great Satan, and why you're
in Japan and if you hate as much as you suggest why you stay
here.
You need to get out more--see a few countries like South
Korea, China, Saudi Arabia,Iran, or Malaysia, or almost any
non-western country you choose. Japan will look like
Disneyland compared with some of those places. I doubt you'd
call Japan "fascist" country after you visit a real one.
Kindly stop using the Middle East as an example of lousy
places for women to be. You obviously have no idea of the
place, seeing as you think that is where female genital
mutilation has its stronghold. Try also to count the
Mid-East countries that do not let women drive and see if
you get past one. Keep to the country at hand and stop
making unfounded comparisons.
Unfounded? PROVE WHY. If Japan is "fascist", just what
places are we comparing them with? This is purely a relative
comparison. There are lots places worse to be in than Japan.
And aren't YOU in Japan voluntarily? If you don't like it,
don't be in Japan. There are many nations freer than Japan,
but many worse as well. That's pretty much my point. If
you're going to call Japan extremist, you'd better be able
to support your notion. You HAVEN'T yet.
And as for female circumcision, it is well-practiced in
African nations as well. So what? I'm not picking on the
Mid-East per se. Don't like the driving example? Choose
another then--there are lots to pick from. Like how women
are treated when divorce enters the picture. Or inheritance
rights for women. Etc. etc. So take your pick.
In the end I have yet to see any proof that Japan is
simply hell on earth, the worst nation on the planet to be
in.
Thanks for so many interesting viewpoints!
Unlike some other posters, I don't hate Japan or consider
it fascist! Some of the views expressed have been really
extreme.. I didn't think current women's issues had much to
do with the rape of Nanking, but hey, I've been
enlightened. I'm also not a raving crusader, just a girl
in a small town with a question. Unfortunately the women
I've met here in my town probably don't provide an accurate
reflection of Japanese women: I'm told the career minded
ones go in to the big city. (I'm also not American!)
Funny how so many posts result in anti-American rhetoric..
Have to apologize for the Western slant to my views, of
course I see conditions here in Japan with the eyes of a
westerner. But my Japanese female friends here lament
these conditions too and feel trapped by them. (They just
don't have computers to put notes on the thorn tree.)
Anyway, let's hear it for Japanese women! From what I've
seen, they make the world go round! At least in my town in
Kyushu they do. So I'll hoist a Kirin (brewed here in my
town) to that.
Wow, this is fun. Nothing like a lively debate. However, I still want to know what Rob-M's vested interest in defending Japan is. You didn't answer my question. Once you do, I will answer any you pose to me. Any I also want to know which magazines or papers you send articles. By the way, you two Robs have to get completely different names, it's way too confusing keeping you guys apart.
LH:
If you'd like to know where my stuff appears please email me
directly, I'd hate to get accused of promoting my
publications/self on TT. also, i think I'm gonna use a
differnet handle so people don't confuse myself and the
other Rob, who is obviously a very frequent (and
knowledgable) contributor.
To Elizabeth:
which town in Kyushsu do you live? I lived in Kumamoto for a
year, it was great.
To Elizabeth,
You didn't think current women's issues had much to
do with the rape of Nanking...,
I don't understand,,,what is the matter with the rape of Nanking?
All I know is the rape of Nanking is a book of lie.
Back to women's issues, I agree with Kuko.
Please come back when you have been to NOVA.
To Helen,
And I suppose your Japanese is perfect is it?
Just because someone doesn`t speak English as their native
language shouldn`t prevent them from providing their
opinions here, of all places! Unless of course
condescending wankers like you try to belittle their
contributions.
One of the most interesting parts of this site is the
diversity of opinion it attracts, be it from native English
speakers or those communicating in their second (or third)
language. I for one can understand Risa`s messages, so give
her a break.
People don't usually disagree with the company's decision
or what our boss tell us to do even when they are asking us
to do some non-sense in Japan. (workers are expected to be
a team player here.) Instead, many complain later outside
their office. So - please listen to them carefully. Some of
their complains might not be the one only for women:) I
think it's good idea to ask some men to be fair. Japanese
men are not as bad as some said they are:)
You would probably like to hear from females workers who
are hired as both ippan syoku and sougou syoku. I think
some female workers mentioned before are ippan syoku
workers(serving tea is usually their job). Companies hire
many junior college graduate for this position. They are
usually expected to leave before too long, so the company
can hire someone younger and keep the money they pay for
these people low.
Companies often hire 4year university graduate for sougou
syoku workers. They are supposed to be treated the same as
their male workers. Sougou syoku workers might need to
relocate but ippan syoku worker are not asked to relocate.
Situation varies greatly depending on the company. Please
ask people working for different companies.
Well, I'm quite sure you will hear a lot anyway. I can talk
for hours if you let me speak in Japanese:) The worst one I
hear lately is the one at my uncle's company. They fired
all the female workers at their Osaka office and they now
have over 100 all the male workers there. Can you imagine
that? There are many stories like this now because of the
bad economy here.
LH--
If you look at our names you can tell the difference. As
for your question, I have no vested interest of any kind,
nor am I defending Japan. These are your 2 misconceptions
you can't seem able to overcome. My centrist argument comes
from the fact that after so many years living in Japan I
have encountered BOTH extremes--hard-core Japan groupies who
think this place is one big Disneyland, and who take any
slighty negative comment on Japan to mean you're a "racist",
a "basher", or a sore-head. And now you provide me with the
other extreme--Japan is one big shithole for women, there
are men just waiting outside every women's home and and her
bed right now just waiting to assault her, and if she goes
to the cops the cops will assault her too. Both are rubbish.
You can of course provide some isolated case of severe
mistreatment, but these are isolated cases and do not
represent the norm. So either you are deliberately
misrepresenting the truth or you don't know the reality of
Japanese life. I'll let you say which.
And if you're going to make such VALUE JUDGEMENTS, you
can't do it in a vaccum. What's your favorite restaurant?
What car is the best? I think Country-A is very Adjective-B.
You can't make any such statements without comparing it with
something superior or inferior. And this is your failure, as
well as #24, who probably does have some vested interest in
the Mid-East.
So ONCE AGAIN I challenge your statement, or at least
admit you've had too many Kirins--On WHAT BASIS do you
conclude Japan is "fascist"?? And please don't refer to some
crime that happened; I could easily dredge up something far
worse in a country you call free, and that hardly supports
any argument. Considering fascism is about as bad as it
gets, do you seriously think there is no other place on
earth worse for women than Japan? And if so, why were /are
you in Japan at all?? If you just said Japan has serious
gender issue problems and inequality, you could have
avoided all this hitting the fan. You seem well-mannered
and not just some crank or kook, but since you seem to think
Japan is the absolute worst place on the planet for
women to be in (a most uninformed view) I am challenging
you to put your money where your mouth is.
You've painted yourself into a big corner here, I'm sure
we'll all be waiting to hear your answer.
--Rob
Well, so it's gender issues, is it? I am a person of colour. Kin-san and Gin-san are vertically challenged. Let's not get hung on semantics. Anyway, I don't feel that I've painted myself into a corner at all. Nor do I buy your moral relativism. If a person kills another person, can you defend him or her by saying `Well, he didn't kill as many people as Jeffry Dahmer'. I'm calling a spade a spade and the situation of women in Japan stinks. And, I heartily believe that the situation in Japan, both socially and politically, can be termed `benign fascism'. However, it can quickly turn into very dangerous fascism. Read Ian Buruma's `Wages of Guilt' for starters. Better yet, try just once getting on the wrong side of the law in this country. Or, even better, talk to some zainichi kankokugin. Or any other non-Japanese Asian living in Japan. You're a white guy right? You know very well that white guys have it easy here. Try being a nanmin Vietnamese here. Do you read Japanese? You should have checked out some of the stories in the Asahi Shimbun recently about non-Japanese Asians living here. Anyway, I have work to do, so I cannot engage in a point for point rebuttal here. I do, however, look forward to talking about this issue at greater length in the future. And, lastly, in defence of point about Japan being benignly fascist, one element of which involves misteaching history or not teaching it at all, I quote RISA who said above: `WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE RAPE OF NANKING? IT IS A BOOK OF LIE (SIC)'. And I also think she could do with a spell at Nova in addition to a little study of her country's history.
Out for now,
LH
I distinctly remember you saying "I love Japan and Japanese
people"(Hiroshima park quote).Face it Rob, your in Japan
because your one of those bizzare foreigners who finds Japan
wonderful.
hope that Risa doesn't study a Japanese history
textbook.....
you must North American, women can't be wankers.
I enjoyed reading the heated discussion and am happy that
many are feeling what I was feeling.
As a woman who grew up in Japan, I agree with LH that it's
not easy to live in Japan as a female. It makes me feel
sick thinking about chikans in the crowded train. Since I
wrote my senior thesis on foreighners living in Japan
(zainichi gaikokujinn), I know that Japan hasn't gone far to
protect rights of foreigners, specially non-caucasians. As
an Japanese college student in United States, it made me mad
how the judicial system was treating foreigners in Japan.
I'm glad that people visit Japan and love its culture and am
proud of it, but I wouldn't call it Disneyland nor fachist
country. Many my Japanese girlfriends agree that the
society of Japan is closed and oppressive. And many more
women are not exposed to the non-Japanese way of life and
believe that becoming a housewife is the only way to live!
It's a pity, I think. Just like any other places, I think
Japan has unique problems of its own. And I can't just leave
the country because it's mine.
Calling a country fachist wouldn't bring down the dictator.
I am going back to Japan in a few months and truly wish that
it will become a better place to live for everyone! I
really do!
Again (and again) I ask you--PROVE your argument. So far
you haven't--and I doubt you can. And now you digress into
completely unrelated issues, Koreans born in Japan, etc.
And yes, I know, since I know many of them.
I never, that's -never- defend injustice. I take issue
with your screwed up view of Japan in relation to the rest
of the world. So Japan has a lot to do to make things equal?
Sure, I'll buy that. But your main flaw is that you portray
Japan in the absolute WORST terms--a real fascist state. Do
you even know what fascism IS? So far you seem unable to
demonstrate any understanding of the conept--you're just
being very glib about throwing around a lot of labels.
Do you truly think present day Japan is the same as Nazi
Germany or Italy 50 years ago?
I suggest you compare Japan with a few more countries.
Like Latin America where Machismo rules, abortion means
a coathanger in the back alley, men philander around and
spread AIDS, and there are literally millions of street
kids who have to fend for themselves. Or India with its
caste system.
Or shall we try Afghanistan, where women can't even go
outside? Or China, where women are being forced to have
abortions or be sterilized. If Japan is fascist, what do
you call these other places?
All in all, Japan has a lot to do for true equality. But
comparatively speaking, they are not at the bottom of the
barrel, as you think (and can't show).
OK, so for the rest of us eager readers--where are YOU
from, why are/were you even in Japan, and how long?
So far you have made a very poor case--no case, in fact.
And changing the topic won't help you either.
Wow, it seems like I really got you souped up. It's nice to see someone get passionate about something. Apparently you didn't catch my point about the weakness of your moral relativism. And talk about not changing the point. I thought we were talking about Japan, not middle eastern countries. You will note that most of the women on this thread, with the exception of Risa, the malinformed torturer of the English language, are basically in agreement with me. See Kame's post above. Shouldn't we take those who have actually experienced the situation to be the truest arbiters here? Not some white man who, for whatever reason, takes it upon himself to defend this very screwed up country. Are you related to Tokyo Rose in any way? Oh, and if you guess my country and occupation I'll tell you if you're right. For the time being, I'll linger here in anonymity.
For Japanese girls:
.
In what ways do you think it's better to be a female in
Japan - rather than a male?
.
In what ways do you think your life is better than the lives
of non-Japanese girls? And I mean ALL non-Japanese, from all
continents.
.
I'm curious!
You mean the book is full of lies, or the incident itself is
a lie? You are on thin ice
Unfortunately I studed a japanese history. If you don't like my idea, I will say the book of distortion.
I suggest YOU reread all the posts before--there is no one defending your position that Japan
is a fascist state--not ONE person--even the post you look to for the most support, Kame,
doesn't call Japan such and disaggrees with you . She calls Japan oppressive and closed, and
many others agree--ONE MORE TIME now, LH, SO DO I.. But that's quite different from
fascism. And although it's off the topic, Japanese women, thye problems of the Koreans in
Japan show a terrible xenophobia. But that's deifferent from fascism too.
The crux of the problem is A) You don't understand what fascism is B) You can't argue
logically or coherently and C) You look at Japan in a vaccuum.
Most westerners who visit the A-Bomb museums in Japan remark that it only presents the
bombing and the damage, it never shows why it happened, the events that led to it. And thus it
is a bit of a whitewash. You probably would think so too, if you go there, yet you are doing the
EXACT SAME THING against Japan this time. And in case you didn't know, Latin America, India,
and China aren't considered the Mid-East, so your attempt to dilute this doesn't work.
Conditions there for women are far worse than in Japan, yet you use the absolute worst
terms to describe Japan--so ONE MORE TIME, please reconsile this. If Japan is so bad as to be
a fascist state and the worst nation in the world for women, what do you call these other
nations and regions?? FREE??
And while you're at it, you might live up to your pledge and answer the questions I posed about
you in the last post I made.
LH,
Just accept that your position has been blown to bits by
Rob-M (or was that Rob the journalist?:), and stop making a
fool of yourself.
How is it distorted? One should be flattered, I suppose,
that so many in Japan subscribe to that view. It suggests
that they don't want this heinous crime against humanity
pinned on them, and that almost amounts to an admission that
it was wrong. For those who want to deny it: good luck. It
doesn't change anything.
Dear George,
Wow, thanks for your views.
Rob M., I guess it's not fair to engage in this thing if I don't have the time to adequately defend my position. Anyway, I would like everyone to take a close look at Risa's posts. Check out what she says carefully. I still argue that her having been brainwashed by the mombusho is evidence of what I call benign fascism. And, George, I have a sneaking suspicion that you've been in Japan about a year or two, so I suggest that you keep out of this until you know what you're talking about.
(noun) "a system... characterized by... suppression of
opposition... belligerent nationalism, RACISM...etc."
Don't get so rigid on definitions! Ya don't have to be a
goose-steppin' Nazi or a Benito Buddy to be a Fascist.
Doesn't have to be a formalized political system to be a
fascist one, either. Most countries, if not all, exhibit
fascist tendencies...Ya gotta admit though, the most
insidious brand of fascism is fascism with a smiling face
and polite demeanor.
I am writing based on the fact that I'm a Japanese female
and I can't change that. I have no idea which country is
the best country for female to live. It's probably
different depending on what you want to do in our life.
I am quite sure Japan is still the easiest place to find a
interesting job for me. I went to Australia on working
holiday and looked for a job. But the positions for
Japanese were limited. I would be different if I were an
Austalian, of course:)
And some companies in Japan hire female workers on the same
condition as male. I am not interested in onnakono job, job
for girls. I've got this kind once and hated it. And I am
not interested in working at companies which hire females
for only these positions, either.
Some people mentioned about zainichi korean people... I
work with some cool zainichi korean females. They are very
proud of their origins which are both korea and japan. My
co-workers are really strong and mature. I've never heard
any complains from them. Their knowledge of korean language
and culture etc. is greatly appriciated by the fellow
workers here.
As one of them told me before, complaining doesn't make the
situation better. There ARE options. There are
competitions, too. But it's again the same everywhere...
I think it's good to be a female in Japan because we can
choose their life as I wrote before(#22).
Back to the very beginning about the feminist group, I went
to the opening ceremony of UNIFEM office in a surburb city
of Osaka last year. They invited a very sucessful Japanese
opera singer from Italy for the ceremony, so I went:)
I have no idea if they closed their office in Tokyo. But
new office opened in Osaka last year. It was very
interesting that many people who support this organization
were housewives. I agree with YH san (#1) at the point that
quite often women prevent other women to be equal. Power of
the housewives or people who want to be one is stronger
than it might look like...
Thanks Webster for your post. It's funny, I checked the Oxford English Dictionary and the definition also seemed applicable to Japan. And, I think in my early posts, I showed figures and examples of why Japan has elements of fascism or virulent sexism. Rob-M, however, tried to defeat my arguments simply by comparing Japan to other countries. If you restricted yourself to talking only about Japan, Rob, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. And Kuko, thanks for your post, but I'm sure you would have been able to get a good job in Australia if you had some professional skills and professional level English. There's plenty of good work there, but if you don't have the skills, of course you're only going to be a waitress. And of course your Korean co-workers don't complain to you - they've learned that that will spell the end of their jobs. I am sure you've never heard their honne. Try listening. In all, I'd say your view is far too bright and unrealistic - me samete kudasai.
i'm in south korea, and in a class discussion about
marriage, most of the university women said they would take
a chinese or japanese man over a korean any day.
mind you, i'm not sure how many japanese men they know, and
i think the chinese preference stems for a rumour that Ch.
men wash the dishes at home, but the point is, japanese
women are not alone in their world of contradictions. many
of these posts could also be said of korea, but it's not as
mystifying, because the chosun dynasty ended less than a
century ago, and exterior influences (besides china and
japan) were next to nil until the korean war.
but when it comes to the issue of birth control (not
medically necessary, apparently), let us not forget that
shortly before viagra (medically necessary, indeed!) was
whipped through legislation, rogain was legalized as well.
yes, male baldness is a virulent disease and must be
stopped before it wipes out the population...
Whatever kind of long running argument you are having with
Rob-M I really don't think you have the right to attack Kuko
like that just because her opinion happens to support Rob's
position and not yours. She was only giving her opinions
from the perspective of her experiences and her position as
a Japanese woman in Japanese society and does not deserve to
have her professional qualifications and English speaking
ability brought into question because of it. You have no
idea about her professional qualifications and her English
ability would be perfectly acceptable for just about any job
in Australia, but the fact of the matter is that the
Australian government is beginning to crack down on
immigration and so it is, as she said, much easier for an
Australian national to get a job in Oz than a non-national,
even if the national speaks little English (employers don't
want the hassle of trying to get work permits). And in any
case Kuko didn't say that she was unable to get a job, just
that positions for Japanese were limited and she felt she,
personally, could get a more interesting job here in Japan.
The number of new jobs becoming available in Oz is
decreasing and it is much easier for an Aussie national to
get those jobs that are available - which is just as Kuko
said.
Also how can you know whether her Korean co-workers are
expressing their true feelings, since you don't know them at
all? Perhaps you are right in that the don't complain to
Kuko because the fear it would not be good for their career
prospects, but perhaps it is as Kuko said and in fact they
are well respected and have nothing particularly to complain
about. You cannot know.
The tactics you are resorting to in attacking Kuko amount to
the same thing as the tactics you accuse Rob-M of employing
in your argument with him. If you really want people to
believe you won the argument with Rob-M then you should be
much more careful about your own argumentative tactics.
And why exactly are you bating Rob-M to respond to you? You
could take it from his non-response that you won the
argument. But I for one believe that his non-response is
perhaps because HE has a life!
If I were to take your logic and your style, I'd have to say
that all men are fascist and the world in general sucks for
women!
ü@Sorry LH,
But all the time in the world will not help you in making a
better argument--because you can't prove what is *not* true.
I'm afraid George is quite right on this one, as is Kuko
giving her experiences. And if that isn't enough, there is
always the more curt, blunt reply to you in your other
fascism thread. Since you only see what you want to see
however, doubtless you'd see these posts too as
everyone is the thread "agreeing with me".
I myself am pretty much spent on this thread--you simply
can not use logic or objectivity in your thinking. And to
criticize George is not your place--if he has been in Japan
only for a year or so then there'd be no reason for him to
have a deeper understanding of Japan--but since you imply
that you've been in Japan longer, your horrendous ignorance
of Japan's place in the world is inexcusable.
At any rate, I just keep repeating what I wrote before
over and over, and everyone but you seems to get the point.
You CAN'T compare one nation by itself--you can only look at
2 or more countries to make an observation and value
judgement. But in your black and white world only 2
countries exist--the one where you are from and Japan--and
since your country is the shining white knight then Japan
must be evil incarnate. And if you want to read dictionary
definitions all day then you could argue that EVERY country
in the world is a fascist one.
The problem is not so much Japan but your complete
inability to use any form of logic. And you demonstrate this
YET AGAIN with Risa's post. Suddenly one person's post is
"evidence" enough that Japan's Ministry of Education is a
fascist lying organization. It is truly amazing that
everyone else can see your horrible leaps of logic and
jumping to conclusions. No doubt you'd take this as a
ringing endorsement of the Japanese education system--it
isn't. It's pointing out your inability to think in a step-
by-step logical fashion. There is no real discussion with
you, since you've already drawn all your conclusions
already, and the fringe isolated incidents you cite merely
confirm your views while you ignore the vast majority of
events and experiences of everyone who is different from
you.
To see your logic used in another work, look at "The Japan
that Can Say NO" bu the right-wing kook Shintaro Ishihara.
In a microchip factory with a higher than avg. defect ratio,
one day a female worker was walking to work and noticed that
there was a railroad track with trains going past near the
factory, and wondered if the vibrations made might be
increasing the defect rate, "thus demonstrating the
superiority of the Japanese education system..."
Excuse me?? How is that?? Yet you are doing the exact same
thing.
"WHY IS EVERYONE FROM LAFFCADIA'S COUNTRY A NARROW-MINDED
BONEHEAD"?? -- someone could easily write that, and be in
your world be perfectly correct. After all, they take one
person's post and apply them to the whole nation where
you're from (an issue that you keep dodging, by the way).
ü@At any rate, I'm not getting anything out of this, you're
too closed minded to see anything that you don't want to.
You seem like a nice person and all, and I hate to use the
word since it has been abused by Japan Groupies to the point
of being nearly meaningless, but I can only conlcude that
you are a JAPAN-BASHER. You have no facts at your command,
you can't show Japan is the worst place on the planet for
women (nobody could), and you toss the term fascism around
so easily--look at other countries if you want to see true
fascism. And if you want to see a "benign dictotorship" (the
correct use of the term), try Singapore.
I recommend that leave Japan as soon as you can; it will be
better for you, it'll be better for the Japanese, and it'll
be better for all of us who come around afterward and have
to explain to the Japanese you encounter that, no, 99% of
the foreigners in Japan don't feel like you do and know
better. You need a long vacation--a few stopovers to
liberated countries like North Korea, then go over to Kabul,
a few African and mid-east places to observe 6 year old
girls getting their clits ripped off their bodies, and then
a trip over to Sao Paulo where a rapist gets off scot free
since the women he raped wasn't a virgin at the time.
And I'm forced to ask yet again even though you refuse to
answer as you said you would--WHY are you even in Japan at
all if it's such a "fascist" place??
--Rob
Hold on now, I did not set out to attack Kuko's English. It is obvious from her post that she speaks and writes very good English. I was just pointing out that it is difficult to get a job without professional level English. That is a very high level of English indeed. And as for what I said about her Korean co-workers hiding their real feelings about Japan, how can you not agree with me? Don't you think you'd have some complaints if you lived in a country where you were denied a citizenship after several generations of living there and then be subjected to the humiliation of being fingerprinted every few years. Listen, as for another Aussie, what can be gained by saying comments like `Get a life' or whatever you said? I am obviously playing devils advocate here to stir up a lively discussion. If that offends you, why don't you go gorge yourself on a lovely piece of Lamington cake and forget about this thread?
Okay, Rob-M, I've got to hand it to you: You've presented your case better, more thoughtfully and more clearly than I presented mine. I admit that I overstated the case by a long way (too many Kirins perhaps), but I think you can recognize the fact that I was playing devil's advocate. I still believe that the situation of women in this country stinks and that the country has fascist elements. However, I agree that your view is more balanced than mine. I disagree with your term `benign dictatorship' though, as that makes it sound like there's one man in charge. Can you think of a better term? I am trying. Now, I would like to have some more constructive discussions with you in the future. However, at this time I am rather busy. But just to get you thinking, I want to ask you, and I will post this at some point, just what is it that you like about Japan? Please understand that I am not being sarcastic here. I often ask myself the same question. Also, one more, do you think that a foreigner can live here for a long time without doing some damage to his/her soul? Out for now,
LH
You just shot off at the mouth. The devil's advocate
argument always comes out when people get a hefty response.
You asked for it though, by rubbishing another country
without backing it up adequately. You wouldn't even accept
the opinions of a Japanese woman because YOU KNOW BETTER.
White arrogance.
LH:
It could fill another topic, and is only a small point, but
for your information many teiju zainichi gaikokujin (e.g 3rd
generation) are not fingerprinted every few years any more,
as you claimed.
This practice ceased in 1996.
But then what would I know, as you amazingly deduced from my
short message before I`ve only been in Japan "a year or two"
and thus have nothing important to add.
It seems to me that the only way you can defend yourself is
to create some delusion that the person attacking you is
un-qualified to make that criticism (eg only been in Japan a
couple of years, or lacking adequate English, or hasn`t
REALLY spoken to their colleagues about what they REALLY
think). FYI, I spent two years working with the first
zainichi to be employed by a designated city in a general
affairs bureau. And believe you me, she sure didn`t hold
back on her opinions! But then, I guess you`ll say that my
Japanese couldn`t possibly be good enough to understand what
she was REALLY talking about, or that perhaps I`m too white
or too male to understand the crux of your argument.
Why do some people have such closed minds?
but I didn't know how things work there... etc., either. I
couldn't order my sandwich and was suprised to see all my
Aussie co-workers left their desk to watch Melbourne Cup
race on TV. (I lost my bet:))
Well, Australia was a great country. I got some interesting
jobs(I couldn't work more than 3months at one company with
my visa) and met many nice people. But still - with my
skill, I have better chance in Japan.
As for zainichi Koreans, I know that my co-workers don't
represent all the zainichi Korean people in Japan. But I've
met some zainichi Korean females who are very proud of
themselves and never want to be felt sorry for them at all.
I understand how they feel, because I'm not so happy to be
seen myself as a poor Japanese female. This is not a
perfect country at all. But it's my country and I guess I
like this country.
>LH san - Thanks for your comment that my English was good!
I am always wondering if my English is understandable...:)
Kuko,
How can you thank LH for saying that your English is good
when he was the one that said in the beginning that it
wasn't professional and wasn't good enough to get a job in
Australia? He is a hypocrit. Ignore him!
Kukosan e,
Moshiwake arimasen. Anata no eigo noryoku wa handen zenzen dekimasen. Warukatta desu. Surprised, listen, of course I don't know if she speaks professional level English. I was saying that it is obvious her English is very good, judging from her post. She may, if fact, speak very good or even professional English. By the way, Surprised, was anyone speaking to you? If you don't want to talk about the issue at hand, please stay off of this thread.
Physician heal thyself!
Was anyone talking to me?
No, but then Tom (#3) wasn't addressing you in his post
either, but you felt the need to reply to him!
And I wasn't addressing you anyway, I was addressing
Kuko-san.
If I don't want to talk about the issue at hand then stay
off the thread?
Well, your "discussion" with Rob-M has strayed
rather significantly off the topic of women's issues in
Japan wouldn't you say? Yet that hasn't kept -you- off the
thread.
LH you are such a hypocrit!
And regarding your comments on Kuko-san's English; you say
now that Kuko-san's English is very good, but your original
post on the matter -implied- that the reason she couldn't
get an interesting job in Australia was because her English
is not professional. Which is it to be? Oh well, at least
you apologised! (and by the way, the word you wanted was
handAn, not handen).
No doubt you are playing devil's advocate again (always a
good excuse for being unable to back-up one's arguments),
but how about you take your own advice? Give it rest and
leave this thread for people who do want to discuss women's
issues iin Japan!
It's nice to see someone get passionate about something. I thank you for your views. Next?
Back to the original issue, I'm reading here: "Waka Yamada
(1879-1957) became a contributor to the feminist magazine
Seito (Bluestocking), gained national fame through her
women's advice column in the Asahi Shimbun and campaigned
successfully for the enactment of "Motherhood Care
Legislation"". I like to ask to the Japanologists on call if
this is not an early manifestation of feminism. Does Seito
magazine still exist?
You should read a book called Beauty in Disarray by Harumi
Setouchi. It's all about the early feminist movement in
Japan, and the nasty things done to them by the authorities
as fascism took off in twenties (real fascism, this time).
As far as I know, Seito doesn't exist anymore, it was
certainly wound up before the war-whether it took off again
afterwards I don't know.
Just wondering if Elizabeth or any of the Japanese women out
there would like to contact me about these femenist
issues...i dont want to get into all that "my coutnry is
better" crap above and just hope that you will read down to
here and respond to me ....
I am travelling thru japan right now on a fellowship
studying WOMEN IN ASTRONOMY AND THE EFFECTS OF CULTURE ON
SCIENCE. I would be very interested to talk with any of you
about Japanese Feminism?
Thanks!
Regina
After travelling the globe and obersving these things you all have expressed view that may be seen by looking at the
same thing from a difrent place. The crux of the matter is this. Between two people [s], of opposite sex , a realtionship
may be developed to maintain a choseive society, the models along wich these models develop are invatibly different,
But the subject matter will always be the same. If in a relation ship, one is worthy of respect by therer actions
they will recive it, even if the other betrys's or leaves or feel other wise, grudingly they must give respect to the
those who are honest, kind and thought full. These people occur in all society's regardless.
When it come to social and econmic equality, these develop from the model of the first. In japan say, more value may have
been put on giving a man what he desires, a woman to be there for him, oin both an emotinally and sexually
he inturn desire to protect this woman, however problems come in if he betrays the woman by infidelity or sometimes does
it?
In the west we have developed a system that grants liberty in econmic and social ways to women, but still not completely
by any strech of the imagination. This produces it own set of new problems, but also has a distinct set of advantages, i
belive it makes aman traet a woman, as more as an equal, it also lets aman know if the woman really likes/loves him
because it is no longer just a question of money.
I suppose my point is we get all types of people in all societys,
I may be accused of being a romantic at this point, but i belive that true love, the sacrifice of selt, humilty
speak there own values and command respect and trust in any culture, they rise above there cutural circumstances.
You find this every where.
Feminism, etc derive thier conflict from looking at an aspect of this, as do many other ism's, feminisim is particulay
important though as it addresses something fundemental tothe males psych that has be held as status quo for such a long
time.
The execution of feminism, may not bring the panacea that it preponets expect simply change the pardigram
sorry about the spelling,construction and punctuation, but i hope the thoughts get across,
I will be working in Japan for a year and would be
interested in meeting japanese feminists and feminists of
other nationalities as well. Does anyone know of groups or
events? Are there any list serves on this topic?
I also hope that if I become bitter that I return home to
the USA before it reaches such levels of japan-bashing as I
have read here. Why bother to stay if you do not like it? I
figure it is probably less violent than my home, where no
one even gets shocked by the daily murders.
Are there any legal clinics that represent abused women and
children? I am a lawyer and am interesested in volunteering
if such organizations exist.
M.Morgan
I will be working in Japan for a year and would be
interested in meeting japanese feminists and feminists of
other nationalities as well. Does anyone know of groups or
events? Are there any list serves on this topic?
I also hope that if I become bitter that I return home to
the USA before it reaches such levels of japan-bashing as I
have read here. Why bother to stay if you do not like it? I
figure it is probably less violent than my home, where no
one even gets shocked by the daily murders.
Are there any legal clinics that represent abused women and
children? I am a lawyer and am interesested in volunteering
if such organizations exist.
M.Morgan
I don't know a lot about feminists, but one politician,
I heard she just decided to retire recently though, from my
home town is kind of famous - Ms Yamaguchi from Sakai-city,
Osaka. She was or maybe still is (Sorry, I'm not sure) a
chairwoman of Sakai city council.
Second UNIFEM office in Japan opened in Sakai-city, not in
Osaka-city because of her influence, I heard.
Her supporters and she are very active feminists.
As someone planning to visit Tokyo for a few days after a
long expat assignment in China, I was hopeful for a slice of
civilization. From this debate I gather that Japan in
reality is not like the TV Japan on the Lonely Planet, where
the country is super-safe, friendly to foreigners, etc... I
am having a hard time believing that pornography exists
there, much less teen pornography, and this concept of
chikan, what's that all about? Sounds like groping on
trains, or something similar... is this for real? How is it
that this is not more well-known in the west? Now I'm
concerned for my safety, as an American woman (despite my
email name :-) riding trains, that I'll be assaulted in
public view and nobody will care. Is Japan really so out of
control???
gee....is it that hard to understand
things from another angle?(really...really understand...not just... oh.. yeah.. i see.. but..)