Several friends have recently been on trips to China, and have returned bitterly disappointed. Each has been with a tour group, some with the 'offficial' Chinese travel agency. The main reason for their disappointment is that large chunks of the tours have been spent at factory shops, and other shopping venues.
Please leave aside the fact that these things COULD be inevitable if people don't travel independently, but instead choose organised group travel. Some of these friends are well-travelled and independednt thinkers, but a little intimidated by the thought of travel alone in China (for whatever reason), others were fairly elderly, and joined a 'garden tour' where the same thing happened.
Does anyone have any recent experience of travel in China, either independently, or in a group? If independent, how easy is it to get around? If group, has anyone any good experiences to relate? In particular, does anyone have experience with Peregrine tours?
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I would also be interested in this topic. Planning a trip
in 2000 and know of people who travelled independently,
hired drivers and guides locally and still ended up at the
local factory outlet. I hope to make it plain that I do
not want to shop not never not nowhere but am beginning to
think it will not be easy. Anyone have any experience who
could recommend a way to hire drivers and guides for
Beijing, Xian, Guilin, Kunming, Dali and Lijiang. Regards
http://www.wright-photo.com
Thanks to my wife, I can offer some perspective on this
topic. She is Chinese, and spent ten years working as a
manager and national-level tour guide for one of the major
tourist agencies in Beijing before we got married. Now she
operates her own China adventure tour company from
California. (Don't worry, I'm not going to plug the
company here.) One problem we've run into trying to get
this business off the ground is that there are a lot of
incredibly cheap all-inclusive tours to China on offer
now. I know we lose business to them, because we get a
fair number of people who ask (even if not in so many
words) why they should go on her tours when they can get
the same thing so much more cheaply somewhere else.
The answer, of course, is that it's not at all the same
thing. Two old sayings apply: "You get what you pay for",
and "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later." Most
package tours to China vividly illustrate these sayings.
The root of the problem is that most such tours are
organized and operated by travel services in China and
"sold" to foreigners through travel agents in the U.S. and
Canada. These Chinese travel services ruthlessly hold down
the "up front" cost of the tour in several ways. First,
these are large group tours. Fifty or more people is not
at all uncommon, and we have seen groups of literally
hundreds of people herded through the Forbidden City by
guides with bullhorns. The cheaper your trip, the more
likely that's what you're going to get. Second, these
tours are very stereotyped and run on a very strict
schedule. You'll visit the major sights and that's about
all. No wandering through villages, no bicycling country
roads, no lingering in a street market, no meals at small
family-owned restaurants, no extra time to walk a little
farther on the Great Wall to get away from the crowds.
Third, they pay the local guides, escorts and drivers
peanuts or even nothing at all. Those poor folks are
expected to make their living off tips and kickbacks from
overpriced tourist restaurants and shops. (Actually, you
have to feel sorry for them--their living depends upon
pleasing the customers, but also on doing things that put
them in an adversary position to the customers. What a
Catch-22!) Now, assuming you want to have the advantages
of a tour, is there any way to avoid this? Absolutely
there is, but you have to be prepared to pay more for your
tour. The best way to approach this is to resist the
attractions of newspaper ads listing incredible prices.
Instead, work through one of the adventure tour agencies
that specializes in small-group tours. (There are a number
of them, not just us. But I'm not going to plug the
competition, either.) Read the description of the tour in
their brochure or on their Web page carefully to get a
sense of their approach. Follow up by calling the company
and asking how they run the tour. Do they just turn the
group over to a Chinese travel service once it gets there
(perhaps sending an American or Canadian "escort" along as
window dressing)? If so, that's a bad sign, indicating
that you might be getting a "standard" tour in disguise.
Does a representative of the company actually lead the trip
in China (perhaps with some help from local guides)?
That's a better sign. Can you actually talk to the person
who will lead the trip and discuss the activities in detail
with him/her before you plunk down your cash? That's the
best of all. And then if you like the tour, swallow hard
and pay for it. Remember that a lot of the extra cost goes
to pay for a better experience: a smaller group, more
flexible and adventurous activities, better pay for the
local support people (so they don't have to drag you off
shopping just to make a decent living). For example, my
wife has developed a list of reliable drivers and others
who have been "trained" to accept her approach, and who are
paid enough to make it worthwhile for them to do so. So,
to sum up, a tour can be a good way to visit China, but you
need to choose carefully and DON'T do it just on the basis
of price.
Joe,
Thankyou for this explanation. I figured this was what was going on. In fact my friends DID go on one of those incredibly cheap tours (10 days, $1100 Australian, all inclusive) and the thought crossed my mind that they were going to pay for it somehow else.
It does take some detective work to prise the 'alternative' brochures out of sgents as well. In the chain agencies you just get the standard ones shoved at you. You need to be prepared to ring around a lot to track down the operators who are offering the sort of product you are. The only problem is it usually costs 3 or 4 times the amount! That is not insignificant. Delayed gratification (saving for longer) for a better quality experience is the answer, I suppose.
Again, thanks.
I broke my principles and travelled with a mid-priced
well-known tour company out of Hong Kong to Beijing and
surrounds for 4 days, about a year ago. Tour size about 35
people. Everything on the tour was fantastic, except the
problem with shopping. The food was great, the accommodation
excellent with enough variety and input from the local
people. The typical shopping was characterised by a
pseudo-demonstration (ie artificial), eg jade grinding,
followed by the purchase time. Mostly you are given a
ticked as you get off the bus which gives you a discount. I
assume that this is related to their commissions. In the
first day or two it was novel. Towards the end it became a
bit of a joke and some people wouldn't even get off the bus.
The most memorable was wanting to get to the Great Wall,
the highlight of the trip and what are you doing - wasting a
couple of hours on the shopping circuit. Often the shop
remained open especially for our bus and when we had left
the lights went out and the many staff scuttled home. On
the good side these shops always had a toilet (gratis) and
sometimes this was the motivation to visit. Some memorable
shops were those that sold drugs, potions etc foreign to
most Westerners, and in a style that most would not
tolerate.
In total I did not buy a single item in any of these shops
the whole trip and there were opportunities to walk the
streets (eg when I bought my little red book, English
version.) If you do buy here, remember to bargain - there
were a few HK experts on our tour who bargained 50 percent
off. If you really want to buy at 1/3 off it may be a
reasonable price.
I toured as I had little time. The tour was always on the
go during the day. To travel independently, even around
Beijing would have consumed a lot of time, and you just
cannot walk from A to B as the distances are too great.
I had no regrets, but it is a different country to say,
Japan where I could never contemplate a tour. But China has
a different mentality to what some of us are used to
expecting.
Also, don't expect anyone to smile while going through
customs. They are all grumpy-grumps.
Actually, the best way to find the "alternative" or
"adventure" tours is to avoid the travel agents and search
the Web. Entering "China adventure tours" or something
similar on Yahoo or Alta Vista brings up quite a few. And
most of the Web pages are quite detailed, so you can make a
good "first cut" that way. Also, BTW, "Adventure" touring
doesn't necessarily mean rugged trekking. Most of these
companies offer a range of destinations and levels of
comfort. The point of the "adventure" is to get really
close to local life, as opposed to really close to local
merchandise displays.
OK Joe, you have my attention. I was hoping to take a
3week + tour of China in 2000 for about $6000 Canadian. My
itinerary is as above under the posting "Retail Therapy".
My grand passion is photography which is why I think
independent travel with a guide is the way for me to go. If
you feel you may have something to offer me in the way of a
small group tour, please email to above address. Price is
not the be all and end all, I would probably be prepared to
push the boat out for the right trip. Looking forward to
your reply. Regards. Sue http://www.wright-photo.com
You don't say where you are planning to visit or for how long, but maybe a bit of both is the answer. You don't need to be on a tour to get around the cities, a guide book and a map is usually fine. Tours become more necessary if you want to get out into the country. Sights outside cities are very often not on the railway, so you have to tackle buses which tend to be a lot trickier I think, usually because there's a free market so people are after your money and tell you what you want to hear. You can organise tours once in China for the tricky stuff through CITS, and go independantly the rest of the time. Much more flexible if you have the time. What's your itinerary?
I just returned from a 3 week journey to China, travelling
independently.We only bought a returnticket Beijing and the
Lonely Planet.We read about problems with communication,
waiting for days to get a trainticket and so on.
Indeed, the language problem is the greatest challenge
travelling in China, but the "problem" can be managed! In
fact, we didn't have any problem at all in getting the
tickets we wanted: in Beijing and Xian the woman in the
foreigners ticket office spoke some english, tickets for the
next day in 5 minutes. Once the foreigners tickets office
was closed when we needed a ticket for the next train: the
wordlist in the LP was sufficient to get our soft-seat in 5
minutes, completely in chinese.
April is not the peak high tourist season, so mayby that
made it easier to make a reservation, but we never met
unwilling Chinese!
We traveled Beijing-Xian-Chongqing-boattrip to
Yichang-to Wuhan by bus-to Hangzhou by plane, China
Southern-Shanghai-Suzhou-Shanghai-Beijing in 3 weeks.
Besides the language difficulties, China is an easy country
to travel in: good and clean hotels, lovely food, efficient
public transport, all medicins and western "needs"
available at least in the cities.
Chinese sights are already fully crowded with chinese
tourgroups, their leaders all with flags and noisy
microphones. So my advice: be your own boss in where to go
and when to leave, go independently.(but don't forget a
mandarin phrasebook).
Have a good trip !!
Roos
I took a two week trip with Intrepid Travel (Shanghai -
Beijing). It was cheap (much cheaper than Peregrine) but
the transport and accom was great and maximum 12 people. It
also included three days in Xiahe which is a must see and a
good opportunity to use some rugged local transport! We had
the opportunity to be independent every day and we were not
contrained to remaining in the group.
I am still in china doing my solo tour and so far
everything is fine.
I don`t speak chinese therefore experience some delays
sometimes and some extra costs as well.
but in general it is fairly easy.
of course as soon as you book a day visit at a travel
agency , the guide brings you in some special shop where he
could get a commission but this is common practice for
guides all around the world : it is a way for them to make
some extra money, remind that they don`t get paid much and
that it is a tough job here in China .
You are not forced to buy stuff there , the worst that you
could experience is the grubby face of the guide when
nobody has bought something from that shop of factory.
Now travel agents do have great deals for hotel rooms as if
you pop in an hotel the rack rate price is usually double
to what you can get with the help of a local travel agent.
Now the commission taken by the local travel agents for
train tickets is worth the money as you don`t loose time at
the train station or spend fortunes with delirious taxi
drivers : They might be the trickiest people I encountered
so far, as they make detours, or don`t put the meter
counter or I don`t know how they do it but sometimes the
money adds up too quickly on the meter counter.
So for the sake of getting nuts in a taxi, I pay the
reasonable fee at the travel agent and enjoy cheap ,
comfortable and reliable train journeys through the country.
Woman travellers shouldn`t fear anything here as men don`t
harass us, and chinese women are very friendly towards
foreign women as well. Bring photos of your home and family
with you, it is a easy way for people who don`t speak
chinese to hold kind of conversation with chinese people.
I've done low and relatively higher-budget independent travel in China, the former as an English teacher there in the 80s and the latter as an expat there in the 90s.
It is getting easier and easier to travel independently in China, especially if you are *not* on an extremely tight budget. In larger cities if you are staying at an international-level hotel you can arrange a car and driver through the concierge and work with him or her to design an itinerary that excludes shopping if that's what you choose. For instance we wanted to see the Dragon's Back rice terraces about 1 1/2 hours outside of Guilin, and arranged through the concierge desk at the Holiday Inn for a taxi to take us there and back for US$65 --- much more expensive than if we'd taken the bus, but also much more convenient.
These days air and train tickets are easily booked, as are advance hotel reservations.
And by the way, very expensive group tours do not necessarily mean more culture/less shopping. While living in Shanghai in '98 we joined for a day trip to Suzhou some acquaintances who were doing a very very high-end travel company's China tour. What a yawn, from the group leader with her bullhorn (very difficult to enjoy the serenity of Suzhou's gardens with a bullhorn in your ear), to the shopping stops at the silk factory (hardly any time for the most interesting part, seeing the silk actually drawn from the cocoons, but oh plenty of time for shopping in the store) and silk embroidery institute. Members of the tour (about 10 pple in all) said that this was par for the course the whole trip. (In addition, the lunch we had that day was absolutely the worst food I have ever had in China.)
I do understand why some folks would be intimidated by the thought of independent travel in China. Group travel serves a need for some, and that's great --- but what a shame to be herded around the way some of these groups are, and on top of that to spend 50% of your time in state-owned shops.
So, if you don't want to spend all your time in shops but do want to do an arranged tour, research carefully, question the tour operators relentlessly, and don't suppose that just bec. you are paying a premium to travel with a high-end outfit that the usual shopping stops are not on the itinerary.