I travelled all through the US for over five months; along
the East Coast, then across the country to the West Coast,
stopping here and there. Of course, I wasn't everywhere, but
I think I have seen a fair crossection of the USA.
Now don't get me wrong. A lot of the scenery is absolutely
magnificent, e.g Shenondoah National Park,Smokey Mountains,
Monument Valley or the Grand Canyon. New York I found
fascinating and Charleston very beautiful. etc. Most of the
people I met were helpful and friendly. So it was the
perfect trip? - Or?
In spite of all this, I have a problem with this country.
In no other country, with the possible exception of the
Middle East, have I encountered such a constant exposure to
religious, in this case, Christian, propaganda, be it on TV,
on billboards or in the newspaper ( which, by the way, seem
oblivious of the fact that a world outside of the US
exists), bringing with it all the bigotry one expects in a
fundamentalist society: for example: on the one hand
opposition to sex education in schools, suppression of
literature and art, on the other hand the highest rate of
teenage pregnancies in the western world and the biggest sex
industry in the world. Religious fanatics attack
pro-abortion clinics and doctors, and, at the same time
advocate capital punishment.
All races and nationalities are considered equal ( according
to the Constitution ), but there is so much "normal" racism
everywhere ( "Be careful that's where the n.... live. You
shouldn't go there!" etc.).
If something goes wrong in American economics, its always
somebody else's fault, be it the Germans in the '70s or the
Japanese in the '80s.
Americans, and I'm speaking of normal people here, are so
ignorant of the world outside their borders that it has even
become a joke on their own TV ( like 'The Jay Leno Show').
The American government has often supported regimes of the
most dubious kind ( for example the Khmer Rouge in
Cambodia), when it suited their gain. That is, of course,
what all governments do, but the US have always brought God
into this, as if God were only on their side. (Other gods
and beliefs being neglible).
I know that the US are still a symbol of hope to many
countries/people in the world, but I see a threat of this
country becoming a fundamentalist state, if it isn't already
one. The US think they are the best country in the world.
They are the most powerful. They are, if i consider most of
the people I met, one of the most likeable. But the best?
- A country where everyone is terrified of crime? Where it
is ridiculously easy to buy firearms of any kind ( and I
mean any kind ) and shoot your spouse, your neighbours, your
school teachers or your presidents ?
- Where people like to point at every wrong in the world,
but what about their treatment of their own ' natives',
(euphemistically named 'Native Americans' these days)? -
When these Native Americans embark on some kind of
enterprise that secures them some sort of profitable income,
like casinos, they are again attacked.- "We sent them into
the desert, and, even up to the '70s sterilised their women,
and they still havent't died out yet, on the contrary..."
- Where the rate of analphabetism is higher than in many
countries of the so-called Third World.
- Where it is still hard to be a person of 'not white skin'
(whatever that may be).
- American justice means American profit!
I would like objective responses to this. Maybe other
travellers have the same kind of misgivings, or is it only
just me?
I can imagine there will be a lot of flak from so-called
patriots. I've met them: whenever the US flag is shown, they
salute, they have the most smug expression their faces when
they do it,too.
(Just look at book reviews at amazon: books that humourously
and (self-) ironically describe other places, be it
England, Australia or whatever, are usually enthusiatically
acclaimed. But just look at books about the US, often by the
same authors... not jokes, please! Americans do not
appreciate humour of this kind when it is about their own
country. - And that, I think, is maybe the most telling of
all.)
Looking forward to an open discussion!
[There are 22 posts - the latest was added on Tue 18 May, 6:31]
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Welcome to the country where everyone has an opinion and no
matter what you say there is someone who will disagree with
you.
you're so wrong about one major thing - not all "Americans"
think the U.S is the best country in the world. Many, many,
many of us know how screwed up this country is! We are not
proud of it. Your message was very true and I only wish
there was something we could do about it. We are rapidly
self destructing. I don't know where you met your flag-
worshipping Americans, but I assure you that they are a
dying breed. I don't know what's worse: thinking we are the
best country in the world or having no pride in our country
at all.
But I have lived in this country for a few years and I can
only say that even though I get homesick on occasion , the
people are cool, the country is beautiful and I have no
complaints because basically, I have been accepted by
everyone I have met. Yes there are prejudices but show me a
country where they dont exist. By the way ---
where are you from????
Common Peter tell us where you are from. Though obviously we
can rule out several countries. You can't be British..with
their history of colonialism. Not German..my father had to
put his life on hold for several years to help stop the
grandfathers of the current crop from turning the Jews of
Europe into soap. Not Israeli who turned around and did unto
others(the Palestinians) what had been done unto them. Not
French with their interesting colonial practices. Not Dutch
whose ancestors started the slave trade in North America. Not
Australian whose travelers favorite jokes seem to revolve
around making wetsuits out of aborigines. Not
Italian..something about poison gas in Ethiopia.
Yeh I'm an American citizen. American father, English mother.
Born in England. No one has managed to convert me to any
religion..fundamental or otherwise. When are economy is bad
we are quite capable of blaming people here. Especially the
President. You use the reviews on Amazon.com to get a cross
section of opinion? How scientific. No I'm not some right
winger. Never voted for any Republican in my life. Voted
Socialist Worker candidates for President more than any other
party. Been on a few government shit lists. Went to Cuba when
we weren't supposed to. Was in Nicaragua for the 1st
anniversary of the Revolution by invite. However, I know we
make good targets cause in a nation as big as ours there are
lots of jerks. So are you from a jerk free country? Love to
visit that place. Next time you see one of those stupid
Americans might want to ask where his ancestors came from.
Might be a cousin.
Be really nice if this site could be used for travel info.
It seems like you've mixed up much of the information you've
acquired through other means with the impressions you gained
while travelling.
A war the US was involved with in the 60's, liberal gun
policies, racism,literacy rates, rampant Christianity, US
economic history: you surely did not obtain ALL this
information just from travelling around the coasts.
It would be easier to respond to this topic if you had made
it clearer, what you are talking about. Do you want us to
explain what you saw on TV OR what you learned from your
schoolbooks OR the actual impressions that you received from
your travels?
The US has always been a country of extremes. Immigrants
came there with loads of religious and cultural baggage from
the beginning, and then resented each new wave of
immigrants, and whatever alien outlook they brought. Ideas
conflicted and clashed. There was slavery, and a Civil War,
and there is a Ku Klux Klan. The residues of all of that are
still being worked out today. There's an infinity of karma
unfolding.
-
But remember before you wring your hands too much, or get
too smug about the superiority of wherever it may be that
you neglected to say you're from, the sheer magnitude of the
country; the US is over 2.5 times the size of Europe, with
an extremely heterogeneos population. Let's add, say, North
Africa to Europe to give it the same dimensions and variety,
and criticize Eurafrica in the same terms.
-
Like, "I drove for five months through Eurafrica, and I was
amazed at the poverty they allow the Africans to live in.
The gap between Scandinavia or Germany and Morocco is
shameful. And the religious extremism! The governor of Libya
is a Moslem fanatic who cuts off thieves' hands, and in Rome
they have a batch of rich celibate men proposing to tell
billions that birth control is wrong!
-
And what they've done to their neighborhoods! There are nice
old buildings in a few places, but mostly they've been
destroyed in war after war after war, some of them still
going on. And it's no wonder. It's 1,600 kilometers from one
end of California to another, and a longer shot through
Texas, and they're peaceful and united throughout. If you
travel that distance in Eurafrica, you'd pass through half a
dozen dominant religions, and at least a dozen languages.
And they never forget a grudge.
-
There are civil wars and terrorism and rivalries galore.
Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, Algeria, Turkey; those are just the
hot ones. Greeks hate Turks, Protestants bomb Catholics,
Orthodox Christians hate Moslems, and every few decades,
they all gang up for a pogrom on the Jews. Not to mention
the rigid social class structures that persist in a lot of
countries.
-
Can you imagine if Massachusetts spoke a different language
from Maryland, and they had held on to the Calvinist vs.
Catholic atavisms that founded them? You'd have to rename
them Netherlands and Belgium. Oh, wait; Maryland would have
more than one language, too."
-
Et cetera. The point is, the US contains all of what
Eurafrica does in terms of peoples, cultures, and languages,
plus Latinos, far more Asians, and Native Americans. Are
they doing a worse job than Eurafrica of forging those
diverse elements into a potent, functional nation?
-
Not hardly. The KKK and the religious fanatics have their
say, because it's a free society. But their say isn't the
philosophy of the majority, and it doesn't hold sway
politically. I'd rather read billboards and scoff than see a
batch of Orangemen provoking and gloating over a 200 year
old victory.
-
The fascination of the US is that it's the world in
microcosm. Considering the many polarities that exist, and
that cause constant havoc in Eurafrica, to name a relatively
stable location, they're doing a pretty good job of working
it out.
-
Pick a continent. If you can't find whole nations of more
backward hicks than the most insular American, you aren't
looking very hard. When Oregon starts fighting Washington,
and North Dakota starts ethnically cleansing South Dakotans,
or Catholics and Protestants in Nebraska need the PM of
Ireland to start sorting things out, then let the
hand-wringing begin. Until then, watch the evolution of that
country closely, because it's full of lessons for all of us.
But don't be too hasty to judge it on parochial terms.
Karlo, you hit the nail on the head when you say that the
US is doing a pretty fair job, and that the complaints made
in Peter's post are petty. Would that the rest of the
world had so little to complain about!
--
Unfortunately, your US as a microcosm of the world argument
doesn't hold water. While the US has a very heterogenerous
population, it is, and always has been, dominated by one
group - Anglos. This is the only reason it has become so
powerful. It is the obverse to the reason "balkanization"
has become a word in the English dictionary.
--
In your amusing construction of "Eurafrica" you actually
disprove part of your point, ie. that the US is a nation of
such incredible ethnic variety yet still manages to stay
together and remain strong. On your imaginary trip you
pass through half a dozen dominant religions and a dozen
dominant languages. But does the US have anything like
this? No. None of the various religions practiced have
any "Eurafrican-style" national significance save for
Protestant Christianity, and none of the various languages
spoken come close to English's preeminence. Before you
mention Spanish in California, it should be pointed out
that it will always be a language that gets diluted and
finally relegated to the less-accessed regions of memory by
the third generation down the line. Ethnic enclaves in
bigger cities are always transitional in the US -- in
Europe they are not little enclaves, but large communities
spanning relatively large geographical areas, with long
historical claims to being there.
--
You ought to have done a bit more homework in your
construction of "Eurafrica", but then writing on the Thorn
Tree is always done off-the-cuff. A concentration solely
on geography when constructing regions for the making of
socio-cultural comparisons is dubious at best. Europe
alone is populated by some 450 million people, to the US's
270 million. Adding three or four North African countries
you verge closer to 600 million, doubling the US's
population. This just aren't workable figures, no matter
how much land you've gained in your "Eurafrica". And
making the claim that the US contains all of what Europe
does in terms of peoples, cultures, and languages is an
utterly vacuous statement! Three people of Serbian descent
living in Dayton Ohio is not the same as 7 million of them
in Bosnia-Herzegovina!
--
The US does not have separate cultures living within its
borders - it has many transitional cultures all straining
towards and away from the dominant Anglo culture, none of
them retaining any impact of any real national
significance. The US has assimilation on a large scale,
while Europe does not. Not yet, anyway.
I won't argue that "Eurafrica" as a construct is a perfect
analogy for the US; I was aware of the population disparity
when I created the non-nation. As for the rest, though, you
support my point rather than contradict it. It's the very
fact that the US is achieving amalgamation of such diverse
people that makes it remarkable. I'm suggesting that the
fact that Europe clutches its little parochialisms to the
point of genocide while the US assimilates and evolves is a
reason to cut the US some slack in highlighting its
imperfections.
-
In that light, I stand by my view of the US as microcosm.
The fact that the model is the melting pot, rather than the
"cultural mosaic" of Canada that keeps nationalities in
recognizable patchwork patterns, doesn't make it less
diverse in its origins. If you read my mention of Texas and
California, it's to point out the desirability of the lack
of enclaves; the assimilation of Latinos there is a strong
case in point.
-
As for the US being "Anglo", check out evan's post and the
responses a ways down. The Limeys lay a fair wrist-slapping
on the "boorish" Yanks.
-
My whole point was that the US is an experiment in evolving
a society and culture with parts from everywhere, and that
to judge it on the basis of how it compares with the
mini-states of Europe, for instance, is unfair. I wasn't
suggesting that we should judge the "Eurafrican" reality
from the American perspective; my point was to show how
equally tainted such an analysis would be.
-
In any case, nice response.
that Peter is an american trying to get a controversial
topic started because this has nothing to really do with
travel tips. A 5 month trip ? wow you are observant and
seem to know everything about the US in under a half year!
Are you the same peter who started the anti-Israeli post on
the South American topic?
thank you, previous poster, peter is obviously a closet
american. no one can even somewhat accurately get their
finger on the pulse of a nation after 5 months. get a life
and stop trying to start shit.
I'm an Auzzie and have travelled in America. I loved the
place and Arizona reminded me of so many things like back
in Oz. The people are great and all the crap you said can
be seen in ANY country in the world. When you talk about
the flag, don't you have your own nations flag? I do and
bloody proud of it!
Karlo:
I didn't explain enough. You are on the mark when you say
that the US is remarkable for its *amalgamation* of
different peoples. But this is where I think the US as
microcosm argument falls apart, in that the world is
emphatically *not* amalgamating. The notion of global
collective consensus is a pipe dream, whereas in the US,
relatively speaking, it's a reality.
--
I've thought about this a lot, and recently had the good
fortune to be a lent a book that helped clarify my views.
It is: "After the Fifth Sun: Class and Race in North
America" by James W. Russell, an American sociology
professor. Among his many findings are that "Anglo"
culture is still dominant in the US and Canada (not Mexico,
of course), and is the main reason that these two countries
have done so well economically. Meaning that the Anglos
have always been in the majority, and have discriminated
against the other numerically smaller ethnic populations in
the New World, making for a unity that allowed "progress".
For that matter, had the French gotten a larger foothold in
North America, and had the Mexicans been able to defend
their borders, retaining Texas, N.M., Arizona, Utah,
Colorado, Nevada, and California, the US wouldn't be what
it is today.
--
But even more importantly, and this is the clincher: had
the French and the Mexicans settled in larger areas
*within* the US, it also wouldn't be the powerful country
it is today. This is all moot, of course, as this
hypothetical situation would have led to war. And it *did*
in 1845.
--
As for Canada's "cultural mosaic", I would argue that we
don't retain recognizable patchwork patterns save for
Quebec and a few Hutterite colonies in Manitoba and
Alberta. It seems to me that immigrants to the States are
met with a more coherent force of "Americanization" than in
Canada, yet if you look at ethnic communities in the bigger
cities on both sides of the border, they're very similar.
--
In any case, I'm interested in your responses. They are
very coherent and intelligently written.
We seem to be fumbling toward half an agreement. It's
exactly your point that the US is amalgamating and the rest
of the world isn't that's the essence of my first post.
That's exactly why I'm saying that the US shouldn't come in
for parochial criticism; it's doing what everyone should be
doing. If the US can sublimate cultural and religious
disparity to the higher interest of national unity and
progress, the world should look and learn from the "Grand
Experiment", as somebody called it. If that attempt leads to
occasional friction and intolerance, keep it in perspective.
If some flag-waving is needed to reinforce the message,
understand why. I think we're pretty close on that point.
-
The "Anglo" concept is more complex. While the surnames of
all of the US Presidents certainly bear out your point (not
to mention Bill Gates), other ethnic groups, while not
necessarily manning the tiller, have certainly had a hand in
setting the sails. Cases in point would be Northern
Europeans in the Central US, the Irish in the Northeast,
Jewish influence especially in New York, Latinos in the SW,
blacks in industrial cities especially, Cubans in Florida,
etc. Clinton's expressed desire to create a cabinet that
"looks like America" is a case in point.
-
I'm uncomfortable with even the amount of stereotyping I did
in the last paragraph, though, so while I can buy some of
the "Anglo" argument, I wouldn't want to ride it too far.
-
To wander onto boggy Canadian ground, where does your
"Anglo" hypothesis leave you on the Quebec/ Canada question?
Anyone notice that Peter has disappeared? Made his post then
was afraid to reply to the others.
Hey Peter!
News Flash pal!! I'd still live in this mixed-up country with all our problems rather than some other 2 mile wide country with no diversity at all except people who think that any country beats the US. The US has always been and always will be the best place on earth. Take a hint and don't come back!!!!
.. contrary to what others suppose, I do have a life and
have been busy these last few days.
Since my nationality is such a big topic: I am not American,
closet or otherwise. I was born in Australia, my parents are
German/Polish, I spent my childhood in Australia, Germany
and then... here comes, some part of my teenage years in the
US. At the moment I'm living in Germany, after having spent
a lot of time in both Great Britain and Ireland. I carry two
passports (Australian and German). So, what does that make
me? - A non-flagbearing jerk, according to some. Well, then
so be it.
Yes, dear Geremy, fellow Aussie, I too grew up saluting the
flag, the Australian one, and swearing an oath to the Queen
every Tuesday at school assembly. Of course, here in Europe
you usually don't do this sort of thing, especially not in
Germany, you might get arrested... whatever, that is not so
much the point.
Fact is, I am not an American, but I have lived there, as a
teenager in the '70 ties, so maybe that accounts for my
preoccupation with old topics. I have also been visiting the
States over the last twenty years, more or less regularly
(my parents live here: "We wouldn't be able to afford such a
large house anywhere else!" - Good for them, they have to
stay in it, too, they are so paranoid of crime.) And I took
this five month trip through the States 98/99.
As I said above, I have misgivings about the USA. I don't
hate the place, far from it. I know every country has its
share of horrific dirt, the ones I have lived in and been to
as much or more than any other. What sparked off this whole
thing was a discussion (if it can be called such) with
American collegues of mine (I work at a lanugage school,
among other things). I had just gotten back from my trip and
was, can you imagine, practically raving about it, when I
was asked why I didn't try and get a Green Card, with my
parents being residents and so on. When I said I wasn't
really interested (and I'm not), hell broke loose.
I practically had to defend myself for not wanting to give
up my friends, my cultural environment, my love for French
salami, etc. And was accused of Yankee hatred : Love it or
stay away! - And these people are living in Europe,
constantly bitching about everything (especially
about the number of so-called foreigners 'we' let in).
I guess I had to let off some steam.
Okay, a lot of what I said was petty, true. But it seems to
have hit the mark somewhere all the same. Don and Karlo have
been having a marvelous discussion, and the aspect of
'Eurafrica' is fascinating. And the Anglo aspect is true: Do
I sometimes wish for something like a similar binding thing
for Europe. But its not here, and the few time something of
the sort was tried: Napoleon, Russia, Third Reich, well...
the less said the better. And I'm really not so hopefull
about the EURO, but it seems the idea to date ( I consider
myself as a 'Pacific European', so I'm always trying to find
a way out of chaos). Look what's going on now down there in
the Balkans, that is truly awful.(If I had an answer to that
i wouldn't be sitting here, but solving the world's problems
somewhere on the Olympus.) And yes, the US has done a good
job on the whole, I admire the bloody place. That's the
whole problem: if I hated it, big deal, forget it. But I
don't. I just have this feeling that a great thing is going
wrong, or awry, to use a wonderfully old-fashioned word.
And I think that many people from all over the world who
amuse themselves with (US)flagburnig and so on, they would
give their right hand and foot to go to the US, they love
the consumer goods and Hollywood,etc., but what they don't
like is the smugness of the States, this 'We are better
than everyone and we are going to show you what is what!"
So, for now, thank you don and karlo, for some very
interesting ideas ( I really love the 'old celibate men'
bit). And sorry if I didn't answer sooner (I usually log in
once a week).
Hell, Peter, you're an amalgamated microcosmic melting pot
on two feet yourself. Given your background, I can see how
the current plight of America could pull you in several
directions. Your last post gives a more sympathetic spin to
your appreciation of and concerns about things American;
people are so used to seeing countries flamed on the Thorn
Tree that we may see flames where someone was just trying to
light a candle.
-
I guess the answer to your fears is, "It was ever thus."
There have always been forces of light and darkness fighting
for the soul of America. It's the fact that the fight is so
transparent and the characters so graphic that makes the US
such a great country to learn from.
-
The thing that gives me hope is that there are 10's of
millions of Americans who share your concerns and fears, and
who reject the things you hate. Why do you think Clinton got
elected? It wasn't his sterling character or saintliness,
that's for damned sure. It was his ability to articulate an
American dream of concensus, internationalism, generational
healing, and looking to a safer, better future. His tragic
flaws as a man and leader don't take away from the fact that
when someone spoke to America's better nature, America
responded, and was faithful to that vision.
-
The film "The American President" putsome lines In Michael
Douglas's mouth that present the potential of that system
and nation very eloquently. Or am I mistaken?
peter i live in germany too. try asking an average german
where basqueland is and the response will be just like from
an american. i think it's really unrealistic for someone to
think that americans should know everything about every
other country just because every other country knows
everything about america. you can ask me a lot of about
geography of europe, i can sit and name about 20 countries
in asia and can tell you about differnt dialects of spanish
in south america. but i have no idea if new zealand has a
president, prime minister or king. so if i meet someone
from this country he thinks i am a moron. my point is, try
having real conversations with people and not just asking
them point blank questions. I am sure i could be forgiven
on the new zealand question when you realize, da▀ ich
deutsch spreche. Falo portugues y espanol tambien. and if
i had a cyrillic keyboard i could tell you that "ya goveryu
po-russky" and i know at least a fucking tiny bit about all
these places. ok, thanks
An aussie. You've lived in the US? Why keep coming back if
you have so many issues with it and can find nothing better
to do than write antagonistic and lengthy drivel about its
woes. Freedom of speech and plenty of disparity. If you
don't like it, piss off and take your attitude of
superiority with you. Don't you have anything better to do
than bitch and whine about a place you apparently continue
to revisit?
Well Peter you sure stirred it. You haven't learned as we
Canadians have you don't question that the U.S. is the best
country in the world. Here we just let them think it is and
know that Canada is (along with the rest of the world who
have taken the time to research). Yes WE TOO HAVE PROBLEMS.
WE TOO MAKE MISTAKES. I believe that where we shine is
most of us are very humble about what are country is and
stands for (self obvious excepted)and do not shove it down
others' throats. Excuse me for being so Un-Canadian and
blowing our collective horn but I have always considered
Canada to be just as big, beautiful, and a lot more humane
than our friendly neighbours. We are (ususally) far too
reserved! Not the worst fault in the world. Hey all love
all my American Cousins - I really do but you could take a
view from afar - all you really need to do to see what would
make your country PERFECT! Thanks for your time.
Well Peter you sure stirred it. You haven't learned as we
Canadians have you don't question that the U.S. is the best
country in the world. Here we just let them think it is and
know that Canada is (along with the rest of the world who
have taken the time to research). Yes WE TOO HAVE PROBLEMS.
WE TOO MAKE MISTAKES. I believe that where we shine is
most of us are very humble about what are country is and
stands for (self obvious excepted)and do not shove it down
others' throats. Excuse me for being so Un-Canadian and
blowing our collective horn but I have always considered
Canada to be just as big, beautiful, and a lot more humane
than our friendly neighbours. We are (ususally) far too
reserved! Not the worst fault in the world. Hey I love
all my American Cousins - I really do but you could take a
view from afar - all you really need to do to see what would
make your country PERFECT! Thanks for your time.
I am an American and I have to agree with Peter on at least
a couple of points. One, those right-wing wacko Christians
who go start militias and arsenals in the woods are
annoying. The whole abortion thing is ridiculous and yes
he's right that a several doctors have been shot by
(male)"christians". But you know, if you don't want a
missionary to try to get you into one of their
sects/cults/whatever you can post a sign on your
apartment that says no missionaries. You can't blame them
for trying. Sex education is getting better, but sucked
when I was kid. But at least everyone gets to say what they
want. Our band had a nice show last week and we burned our
flag. Sure it made some people angry, but no one stopped us.
yeah, I love the US but all that flag waving bullshit gets
on my nerves and I don't care who is wagging the flag and
what kind of flag either. I want to say/write/protest
whatever I want and here you can. Our, non-micro-brewery
beer really does suck, too.