A Behavioral Guide to Kazakstan
A hopeless lack of basic civility is the harsh reality of
life in Kazakstan, and in much of the former SU for that
matter. I have come to the conclusion that people here
really donÆt give a shit about each other and, lacking that
simple but critical prerequisite, they are incapable of
building a society of compassion and rule of law. Civility
begins outside the family unit, or clan to put it in local
terms. Sure, if youÆre a family member or friend youÆll be
well taken care of. If youÆre outside the clan you can be
expected to get about as much respect and attention as a
mangy dog. You are to be used and perhaps feared but
certainly not respected or considered worthy of basic human
decency and politeness. ItÆs a little different if you are
a foreigner. As a foreigner you are usually well treated by
locals because youÆre an oddity, a novelty, and because you
might be useful in a practical sense. For instance, you
might be able to get some loser bureaucratÆs dead beat son
a job in your company. Other than such practical
considerations your value is essentially that you are a
source of entertainment, news, and amusement. And
suspicion, since many people still think that half of all
foreigners are CIA agents. In addition, a lot of the
friendliness that Kazaks will display toward you will be
the lead-in to a lame attempt to impress you, all in the
hope of demonstrating to you how wonderful their pathetic
excuse for a country is.
The real indicator of how Kazaks think is obvious when
watching them in interaction with complete strangers in
random encounters. For instance, they will not hesitate to
interrupt one another while conducting business or to cut
in front of one another in a line. HereÆs a typical
example: When you are standing at a cashierÆs window
someone will invariably come rub up beside you and butt
into your ongoing transaction from your right or left û and
think nothing of it. They will begin talking to the cashier
as if you are not even there. No ôexcuse meö or anything.
They couldnÆt give a shit that you are standing there; they
are interested only in their own primal needs and in
getting out of there as soon as possible. Women are the
worst, always on the lookout to jump a line and cut you
off. WhatÆs especially annoying is that in many cases the
person waiting on you at the bank or store will immediately
switch their attention and service from you to the asshole
that just butted into your conversation. And think nothing
of it. It is my contention that this basic disregard for
other people stems from the same defective genetic soup
that allowed Soviet people to turn one another in to the
secret police or to torture political prisoners in the
gulags.
Traffic is another good example. While in Kazakstan be
extremely alert around moving vehicles; they do not change
course or speed for pedestrians. Kazaks think that having a
car, any car, is a ticket to be a reckless jerk. No one
here is going to stop and wave you across the street like
they do in Peoria, not even at a designated crosswalk. I
have seen 3 dead bodies in the streets since I have been
here, all of them people who simply couldnÆt haul ass fast
enough and ended up leaving hair and skin samples in the
grills of a jeep, an Audi and a Lada. Natural selection I
suppose. They were simply too slow and lacked the
prerequisite agility to dodge vehicles going twice the
legal speed limit. Once I actually witnessed a car that was
moving at about 50 mph as it slammed into an old lady who
was scurrying across a 4-lane street. This took place on
WomenÆs Day by the way û March 8th. IÆll never forget the
distinctive thud of metal impacting on soft human tissue.
After being hit, and with busy commuters zipping by left
and right, the old bird still managed to drag herself to
the side of the road, using only her arms like a wounded
animal - which is about as much value as she had as far as
the driver was concerned since he didnÆt stop. Reminded me
a lot of the National Geographic Channel. You know,
ôfatally wounded wild beast in desperate struggle for
survival against all odds on the Serengeti.ö
Another example of how crude the inmates of this country
can be: People will ask for directions on the street by
simply blurting out their question and as soon as they have
the answer they are gone, no thank you at all. Often, if it
is clear that you are a foreigner because of your accent (I
do speak fluent Russian by the way, as well as Arabic and
French, so IÆm not the standard issue, linguistically
impotent foreigner) they will stare at you as if youÆve
just stepped off of a UFO, grunt, and then just walk away
with a slightly amused look on their faces, perhaps quickly
glancing back at you for one final look. Imagine walking up
to a person in London and asking for directions to
someplace only to realize that the person you are talking
to is severely mentally retarded. ThatÆs how a lot of
people her react initially to foreigners in chance
encounters. Part of this general attitude stems from the
conviction that because you are a foreigner you couldnÆt
possibly know jack about this place anyway.
Using the telephone is another good example of how rude
many of the locals are during official contact. If you
call a wrong number they will often simply blurt out that
you have the wrong number and immediately hang up. If they
call you and you say that they have reached a wrong number
they also hang up immediately û no ôsorry for disturbing
youö or anything at all. Calling information is a
nightmare. If you are in luck and they actually answer you
without hanging up they simply blurt out some number at
lightning speed and hang up immediately. YouÆre lucky if
you understood what was said. If you didnÆt understand or
you need more info, well, tough shit. Call again and good
luck.
Forget dealing with authorities in a civilized way. If they
figure out that theyÆre not going to get a bribe off you
they ignore you completely. The corruption of officialdom
is a chapter unto itself.
There is nothing in Kazakstan worth seeing that has been
built by man. 99.9% of the buildings are the usual Soviet,
concrete, depressing pieces of indescribably ugly junk. OK,
there is a cute little wooden church in Almaty that was
built with no nails and an ice skating rink that the locals
think is the best thing since baked bread, but that is
about it. The Kazaks, being a formally nomadic people who
were jerked screaming from the 8th century directly into
the 20th century by the Russians (for which the Kazaks have
yet to express the required gratitude by the way), built
nothing work seeing. Once youÆve looked at one or two yurts
youÆve seen the apogee of Kazak building prowess. ItÆs
true; a country five times the size of France and not
diddly squat that is aesthetically pleasing which was built
by man. Go to Uzbekistan if you want to see some old stuff:
Bokhara, Khiva. OK, the Kazaks do have an old building in
Turkistan that they are renovating but I found it empty and
singularly uninspiring, worth maybe five minutes of time if
itÆs on your way but I would not recommend a special trip.
As far as traditional Kazak culture goes, donÆt expect to
see any unless itÆs faked and over dramatized somewhere on
stage. No one wears traditional clothing, even out in the
sticks. The few yurts (fancy word for low budget tent) you
will see are ugly gray lumps full of the usual 3rd world,
driveling, snot covered runts and other general indicators
of poverty that are prevalent in analogous, corrupt
ôemergingö markets the world over. However, the people that
live in these depressing hovels do not demonstrate any of
the cool ancient ceremonies or traditional clothing that
ôtravelersö like to gawk at in places like Bolivia or
Nepal. Beyond the yurts if there is anything on the manmade
horizon it is likely to be smoke stacks and more
dilapidated concrete monstrosities. Oh yeah, plus a lot of
high-tension lines.
Outside of Almaty the food sucks big time. All you can find
is greasy meet, potatoes, onions, some melons in summer,
and packaged imported western canned or dry stuff. ThatÆs
if youÆre lucky. You can, however, get a Snickers bar and
Orbit chewing gum in the most Allah forsaken, remote
corners of this country. Hence, do not come here for a
culinary vacation. Be aware that the four basic food groups
are: alcohol, sugar, fat, and nicotine. Even in Almaty you
canÆt get what I would call a good budget travelerÆs meal.
Good food in restaurants in Almaty is as expensive as that
in Europe and often more expensive. This ainÆt Thailand or
India.
Other than very expensive hotels for foreign businessmen in
Almaty, Astana, Chimkent, and Atyrau the hotels are
overpriced, cold boxes, completely characterless, plagued
by greasy mafia types with their prostitutes, and to top it
off they usually have some of the worst food imaginable û
if they have any food at all. YouÆre also lucky if you get
heat or hot water. And keep in mind that the nighttime
temperatures are now around û25 C in the northern parts of
the country.
There is really only one good reason to come here and that
is for the landscape: high, beautiful mountains and a few
interesting desert areas, although most of the desert and
steppe is flat and absolutely monotonous. If you like
trekking, climbing and other mountain sports this is a
fantastic place and the only thing worth being here for û
aside from tons of tax free money that you can earn as a
ôforeign expertö (what a joke; most of the Americans
working here will be hard pressed to get a job at DunkinÆs
Donuts when they go back) and the more than willing girls
(one of the best kept secrets in the northern hemisphere).
Regarding the girl thing, since Kazakstan is a male
chauvinist, Moslem country this is a great place to be man.
For instance, married men are expected to have at least one
mistress. Women know their place, i.e. they do what you
tell them to do û but this comes with a price, which is
that you have to pay for everything, and I mean everything.
If your woman wants a new fur coat, well, youÆd better go
get her one because if you donÆt sheÆll move on to the next
guy who can support her in the manner which she expects.
She wants a new handbag? Get out your wallet. She needs
some new shoes? Ditto. Mobile phone? You get the picture.
This is not Dutch Treat country. Looking at the brighter
side of things; the women here are very loyal. They will
wrap you in a cocoon of love and tenderness that has long
since been beaten out of gullible American women by the
crew cut, ring in the nose, maladjusted misfits of the
feminist movement. The women in Kazakstan will iron your
shirts. They will feed you like a king. They dress
extremely well and in a way that makes it a pleasure to
show them off to your mates when you go out. You wonÆt find
them wearing jeans with those cute holes in the knees, or
old baggy sweatshirts, or hiking boots around town. Even
the poorest women here dress like Paris models and look
better that 95% of the wide assed hoÆs we have walking
around the US. You want to go out with the boys û no
problem û in fact you are expected to spend a lot of time
with other males because the women here realize that there
is a clear distinction between guy talk and the kind of
stuff that women are interested in. Yet, they are
understanding and caring when you stagger home drunk and
stupid at 3 AM and they have to wipe the vomit off your
chin, clean you up and put you to bed. After all, for
centuries theyÆve been dealing with their own home grown,
alcohol sodden males against whom the average western
maleÆs drinking skills pale in comparison. As far as the
women here are concerned this all comes with the job.
Speaking of women, if you need to hire a secretary in
Almaty keep in mind that how she looks is more important
that what she can do. After all, the first impression that
people get when they visit your office is based on the way
your secretary looks. Be sure to specify that when she
comes for the interview she should be wearing appropriate
business attire, which for Almaty means a tight black tube
dress with a hemline no more than a handÆs width below her
crotch, no bra of course, and high heeled shoes. Test her
skill at leaning forward at her desk with her shoulders
hunched a bit forward so that the prerequisite gap forms
between her dress and chest, thereby giving your visitors a
good view while they wait. Your Kazak visitors and business
partners will especially appreciate your ability to thus
create a pleasing working environment and will be convinced
beyond doubt that you have your priorities in order, that
you are a nastayashi muzhik.
Bear in mind that once you have adapted to such a
culturally specific professional environment you will be
ruined forever when it comes to going back to the US and
getting a job there. Once youÆve thrown in the towel and
gone back to that land of bitchy women and strip malls you
will be a walking sexual harassment lawsuit bomb just
waiting to go off. If you actually get hired chances are
you will within a very short period of time tell some
fellow employee that she has nice tits or make some other
well intended but dangerous remark that will launch court
proceedings and end up costing you your job and your
employer millions of dollars in legal fees and settlement
payments. Therefore, any smart employer back in the US
wonÆt touch you with a ten foot pole. Face it, youÆre stuck
here or somewhere else in the shrinking pool of poverty
stricken but very fun countries.
[There are 38 posts - the latest was added on Sat 15 May, 15:54]
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Such a typical American -- Its not just like home so it sucks.
It's so difficult being the world's sole remaining
superpower. So much abuse.
Actually Mark it's America and pretty much all of the the
rest of the Anglo Saxon world that sucks the big one.
That's why I don't live there any more. I put my money
where my mouth is and moved out long ago. That doesn't mean
I need to sugar coat reality however. When you live in a
place long enough you can get under it's surface and see
things that "travelers" don't - and this isn't always
pleasant.
Example, a few weeks ago in Almaty a pregnant young women
was rushed to the emergency room by her husband one night
because of an acute pain in her side. Appendicitis they
thought. Upon reaching the hospital no doctor could be
found. When he was finally located he was drunk and
demanded $200 to perform the operation (althoug medical
treatment is supposedly free here), during which he
"accidently" cut out part of her reproductive organs. She
was able to have the child she was pregnant with but it
died a few days after birth. Now because of the doctor's
shabby work she can never become pregnant. The women has
absolutely no recourse, the doctor is still practicing.
This kind of stuff happens every day. Most doctors and
medical staff bribe their way into jobs in hospitals
because they can in turn take bribes from desperate
patients or prescribe useless medicines that they peddle on
the side. Like this example: woman comes into clinic with
lumps in breast and doctor tell her to drink three glasses
per day of powdered fiber mixed with water! A month later
woman is diagnosed with breast cancer. Recourse, none.
That's reality bud. People enslaved by a hideously corrupt
regime. Adios.
Hi-
So have you tried the fermented horse milk yet? AGHHHH!!!
It's called Koomis. Fear it!
.
Yes, the women are great, but the more sensitive you are
tword her, the fewer commands you give, the more she will
love you. And if she is Kazakh, speak a little Kazakh and
she will be all over you.
.
Seriously, I don't reccommend living in Kazakhstan. Living
in another courtry rather than just traveling there is a
wonderfull experence. But really, I would rather live in
Mali than Kazakhstan. Believe me, it is that bad. One thing
the poster didn't mention is the vodka. As soon as you meet
someone they will try to get you drunk. There are places in
the world where alcohol is forced on you to an extent, but
in K-Stan it is absurd. I mean, they are really hell bent on
getting you drunk! They even get violent sometimes if you
don't! While were on the subject, the vodka there is awful,
but better than the fermented horse milk, which taste like
milk-flavored clenser.
.
I lived with a family outside Almaty, and the food they
served was great. But yeah, anywhere else it was pretty bad,
espically in the north.
Hey Mark, stick it up your bung! A guy speaks the truth and
you rag on him for being an American??? Wanker.
I was very much amused by Ibeeone's story. You see, he
appears to be speaking quite honestly. It also appears that
he can give credit where credit is due. He appears to truly
have visited the country.
I'm not ragging the author for being American, but I'm entirely sick of travellers who hate the new place they are in. People and cultures are certain ways because of very powerful historical influences, - which determine what kinds of hospitality can be afforded guest (or is warrented by them) and what is important to them in terms of how they construct their society. Aboriginals in America have no ancient buildings, and would you dare to put them in the same category of savages that the Kazachs have been placed.
I can tell your ramblings are a method to try to understand your experiences, and yes there is maddness over there, just as there is maddness in Amerca for new comers. If you want to actually understand Kazachs as they are themselves, instead of understanding them as compared to you, pick up a history book. You'll be surprised what you can learn.
And to my well spoken Australian friend, as usual you do your country proud.
Fascinating. What an insight. I am Kyrgyz and reside in Bishkek and can relate to the story pretty close. What can I say? Not that I need to come up with even more 'pathetic excuses'.
Yes, it is Third World. Yes, it is dirty, ugly, stinky, drunk, 'genetically wrong'.
Hey, my father was born in a yurt (great thing to describe it, by the way, 'low budget tent') It is just my home. And I don't have any stereo-types of foreign 'experts' having 'guest' attitudes. We've grown up.
The ONLY thing - I don't agree with - with people and their basic character: I think you should give them at least some credit for being 'children of nature', naive and kind. Yes, they lack manners of a Westerner but so what - they have their own world.
Thank you for sharing.
Edil
"When the Nazis came for the Jews, I did not protest. When
the Nazis came for the communists and homosexuals, I did
not protest. They came for the Catholics; the simple; the
old and feeble; the Gypsys. Still, I did not protest. And
when they came for me, there was no one left to protest."
We must remember, always, ALWAYS, that it is the voice of
rage (does anyone really think that this guy's vitriol is
the result of KAZAKSTAN??!?! Please ... get a shrink) that
we must listen to most carefully -- for it comes to change
our world, adn never for the better.
This man is quite uninformed: If he had a clue about the
history of Russian-Kazak relations, he might realize why
the Kazaks haven't "thanked" their "guests"/"saviors" for
"rescuing" them). He might also realize why his "fluent
Russian" doesn't necessarily endear him to the average
resident of Almaty.
But that doesn't matter, really; what matters is that the
rest of us, those who are over the fact that our parents
weren't perfect, remember always to see the burning rage
behind stereotypes, behind the forced humor of such rants
(which are really massive slurs), and to see them for what
they are: a warning.
This is the sort of rant, that, if you changed a few words
and time periods, would sound just about right coming out
of Goebbels' mouth regarding Jews. I'm shocked and
dismayed that only Mark had the courage and intelligence to
see through this and raise the voice of objection -- those
who espouse the "oh, just telling it like it is" theme --
yes, I value free speech, and I will defend this person's
right to it. I will also exercise mine and tell you that
his sick soul harbors the desire of genocide. Reject this
sort of shit. Forever.
Now, now Dan, calm down, stop preaching. Unlike Goebbels
might have done I have not advocated gassing the Kazaks.
Amazing how people love to lunge for the Nazi thing when
they can't think of anything more creative to say. That
Nazi metaphor is way overused by people as they grope to
make a point. Comes perhaps from watching too much TV.
Such a subject far beyond the narrow confines of such a
restricted forum, however, I suppose one of my general
points is that Kazakstan suffers the same societal woes as
that of most of the rest of the former SU. That is, for 70
years many of its people lived by pretending that black is
white and that good is bad. The crowning achievement of the
dictatorship of a minority in the FSU was to cultivate a
society permeated by lies, deception, cheating, unearned
privilege, and most disturbing of all, the physical
destruction of opponents (30 million innocent people
murdered at last count plus countless thousands imprisoned
for doing nasty things like expressing a divergent
opinion). Those who mastered these talents of achievement
in the FSU were richly rewarded.
Now, you don't retrain a dog that quickly, even a young
dog. To a very large extent these talents are still very
much in vogue here, except the physical destruction part,
and are being amplified by the usual Asian propensity for
excessive elder worship, exaggerated respect for authority,
and reluctance to confront tyranny. That's why the mafia
blossomed here and in Russia - legions of people well
trained in one form of crime found it laughably easy to
cross specialize into another form of crime. I see it here
every day. Until the Kazaks, and Russians, and Ukrainians
come to terms with their crimes and punish those
responsible this will continue to be a sick society that is
far more in need of a shrink than you presume I might be.
Let's stop sugar coating vast portions of the world with
the "I'm OK, you're Ok" Have a Nice Day check out stand
philosophy that Americans are so good at. The cruel reality
is that evil lurks in the hearts of some men and Kazakstan
happens to be one of the places where man's inhumanity to
his fellow man is most pronounced. I could give you dozens
of real life examples, but I don't want to put myself in a
bad mood today. Besides, as soon as I rake in a few more
hundred grand I'm out of this cesspool for good.
Dan, you need to start looking under the rug sometimes.
YouÆd be surprised what you find there. But perhaps you
donÆt speak any foreign languages sufficiently fluently to
get beyond the superficial facades of other cultures. Well,
hereÆs a starter lesson thatÆs right up your alley: ôHave a
Nice Day!ö roughly translates into Russian as ôVsevo
khoroshevo!ö
Kind regards,
Ibeeone
Dear Dan and Mark-
You two are just a little embarassing. First of all, please do not engage people's ideas with rhetorical devices as conventional as "typical American" or anything invoking Nazi metaphors. I can pretty well tell that Mark has NOT been to Kazakstan and would guess with a fair amount of confidence that Dan hasn't been there either. If either of you had, you would realise that the original post, for all its "vitriol" was pretty well on the mark. Kazakstan is a sad place to say the least. This is not sad in the sense that people think Calcutta is said. It is not sad in the sense that the places that fall on the list of LP devotee/Aussie/Gap Year/privillaged Yank/gonna see the world and take lots of pictures are said(places like Kathmandu, Bangkok, Istanbul, Cairo, Marakech, Agra-- the well worn path in the third world). Those places have poverty and ineptitude in governance. They are the site of many tragedies that are very uncommon in the west (lepers, malnutrition, child prostituion, etc.). However, I have a hard time thinking of a place in the world where the human spirit has been as thoughly crushed, where human dignity as thoroughly disregarded, where good was forced to be bad as in the former Soviet Union. Here people were forced to abandon all hope and submit totally to system that served not "the workers", but served the upper echelon of the party.
Priorities were so severly perverted and people so mistreated that the society has become malformed in a way that people in the west, particularly p.c. soap boxers, can't seem to imagine. Everone who has been to the Former Soviet Union knows that major communist buildings are done in Stalinist, wedding cake style (just to be "grand"), that factories are designed to be the biggest in the world, that essential goods are often hard to come by, while alcohol is ALWAYS availible, that the resources are poured into the military while the populace suffers, that space mirrors are constructed while basic human services are ignored (just check the BBC for this one!). These perversions of priorities greatly hurt people in places like Kazakstan, they are economicly destructive, they are pyscologically dangerous and they are hard to remedy. The Aral Sea disaster was something that the Soviets knew would happen, but didn't care about since their sexually inadequate fat asses wanted to grow more cotton than the U.S.
Dan and Mark, listen up. The original poster is pissed off. He is stuck there and it is getting to him. It would get to any decent person to be stuck in Kazakstan, most of all the citizens of the country. I felt EXACTLY the same way while there and for a few months after I got back to the west. If you two went there, you just might agree with him. He might be guility of a being a little overbearing, but his content is right on the mark.
P.S. sorry about the previous abortive post.
Hi-
It is clear that "Yawn" has been there. You can tracel
through Mali, Calcutta, Bangladesh, and just about any other
poverity stricken country, but until you've been to
Kazakhstan, you don't know how bad it can get. Kazakhstan is
not as poor as, say, West African countires, but it is much
more depressing. I know, I lived there for 7 weeks. I would
rather live in Mali or Zambia.
John
The rant makes excellent reading and I agree with it's sentiments, although I'd have been a little more understated and doubtless not provoked the same reaction.
Almaty is not a place I would choose to go back to, though the Tien Shan is beautiful and I would go there without a moments hesitation.
Don't you sad bastards have anything better to do than
slag each other off ?
Mr. Oh Really.
Now, that bad language isn't really called for is it? Just a very open exchange of strong opinions here. Frankly, a little more interesting that the usual "where can I get a dirt cheap hotel" questions asked by the tedious, cooky cutter, all frantically trying to be different in the exact same way travellers that have proliferated like flies.
There is always one more asshole expert whose been there,
and whose opinion is therefore right. So goddamn rich, we
can travel all over the world see everything, hate
everything. Do yourself a favour and stay the fuck home!
So many people I have met over the years on the road for
utterly no reason. Hate the people, hate the culture hate
the food, hate themselves.
By going over there and experienceing first hand the dregs
of humanity, what exactly have you accomplished Yawn? The
ability to hate with profond truth? The ability to tell me
with specious logic that I'm wrong?
I have learned the language of every place I have travelled
to, and I don't mean phrases, I mean I 've read the greatest
works of their literature in their original language, and at
every minute I've tried to give as much to my surroundings
as I could.
The experience of travelling is every little bit as much as
you put into it, as what you get out of it. How could you
the great Kazach traveller not get that?
I think Mark is implicitly arguing an assumption that many
travelers, or non-travelers for that matter, seem to
have, which is that if you believe another culture is
sick and inhuman or disfunctional you are necessarily wrong
and must be expressing purely your own ethnocentricity and
cultural arrogance. I'm afraid that this theory of
"everything is beautiful in its own way" and "if you don't
like it, it's because you haven't worked hard enough to
understand it" can't be reconciled with a belief in certain
basic human values that are universal, such as those
expressed in the United Nations Universal Declaration of
Human Rights. Certainly no culture or society is anything
like flawless, and every nation on earth is far from
perfect. But that does not mean that all cultures are
necessarily equally just and humane, if we only understood
them properly. By that reasoning those oh so frequently
invoked Nazis were just misunderstood, not really evil; and
the Khmer Rouge murdered millions of their own people
only because their culture had been devastated by Western
imperialism, so they couldn't have had any moral
responsibility for what they did, and culturally they were
as valid an expression of humanity's finest values as Mother
Theresa was. I can appreciate Mark's frustration with
people who travel all over the world and find only cultures
inferior to their own. He's right that they are wasting
their time traveling. But on the other hand, their
blindness to the virtues of other cultures does not prove
that there are no cultures anywhere on earth which do not
have inhumane and reprehensible elements. I have no idea
what the culture of Kazakstan is like, but Mark's assertion
that Yawn is somehow less qualified to judge the nature of
that culture because he has been there strikes me as just a
bit absurd unless Mark really believes that anyone with
sufficient understanding must see that every society is
healthy and just, and that if Yawn's experience in Kazakstan
gave him a different impression, it could only be because
first-hand observation must have confused him. Ibeone has
made a very valid point in the midst of his railing against
the Kazaks that a culture is best judged not by how friends
treat each other within the society but on the basis of how
the weakest and the outsider are treated. I don't see by
what "specious logic" Yawn or anyone else is trying to tell
Mark he's wrong. On the contrary, I think Mark is promoting
the specious theory that sufficient understanding of a
culture must lead to respect. Even if Mark can recite
Goethe by heart, I doubt he is prepared to defend everything
German culture produced in this century. And even if he has
an intimate understanding of the nature of the conflict
going on the Balkans and of the historical rivalries there,
I think he will be hard put to say that societies that
celebrate the massacre of women and children can be
criticized only by ethocentric fools. I agree with Mark
that we very much get out of traveling what we put into it
and that every effort we make to understand other cultures
enriches our traveling experience. But I reject his
implicit assumption that it must be cultural arrogance or
ethnocentricity to reject some of the norms of another
culture. I don't know if Ibeone's violent rejection of what
he sees as the current values of Kazak society is correct or
not, but if Mark is convinced that it is impossible Ibeone
is correct, I think he is implicitly arguing that all
cultures are equally valid no matter how they treat the weak
and despised among them. I'm afraid I don't agree. I don't
believe that everything is beautiful if you just understand
it.
Mark, This is starting to be tedious, but I think the world
just might be a better place if I direct your attention to
things that you seem to be missing.
First, there is the remark in the first paragraph about "one
more asshole expert whose been there,
and whose opinion is therefore right". Which further
denigrated into a tirade about how "goddam rich" I am and
then something about my desire to travel so I could "hate
everything". I am a little puzzled by all of this. You are
clearly feeling just a little defensive. Now, I am
admittedly just a bit peeved with your tone. You are
clearly not informed about the former Soviet Union or
Kazakstan(no DO NOT SPELL IT KAZACHSTAN!, literature boy!)
and I thought it important to give a bit of a recent
historical background to Ibeone's post. You and Dan had
assailed him with what were painfully simple criticisms
(yes, on the subject of hate, what do you have against
yanks? How much of our literature have you read before
becoming familiar with what is "typical" for a nation with
250 million people?) that indicated a serious lack of
knowledge about the part of the world in question. On the
subject of "goddam rich", I am not sure where this comes
from. I give up a lot of things to be able to travel to
places whose cultures are alien to people from my native
culture. I dare say that it is likely that I am poorer than
you. You obviously have convenient access to computers, to
literature in a multiplicity of languages, which is
generally not consistent with dire poverty. I wash my
clothes by hand, live in a small apartment, eat legumes and
grains almost exclusively and work extra hours to do what I
have done. And I certainly don't make all sorts of
sacrifices to go out and hate everything. I have an
uncharacteristic appreciation of much of the world,
including many things that aren't popular in the backpacker
communityû like a fondness for the Islamic world and a
fondness for the China(how many banana pancake eatin' kids
shit on China and the Chinese?), so do not try to tell me
that I go out and travel to hate. In fact, to develop this
impression based on my previous post is to use "specious
logic".
And before you berate me for "experiencing the dregs of
humanity", just remember that 17 million people live in
Kazakstan and have to deal with the things in that country
that are messed up. Almost all of them are no position to
change the situation in their countryû they cannot magically
revalue their pensions, cannot suddenly get the security of
an honest(even by third world standards!) police force,
cannot suddenly undue the damage of Semey (try reading the
great literature with eyeball cancer, you prick!), cannot
make the Aral Sea fecund and full instantly, and yet these
are the things that define their lives. This ain't about
hate buddy, Ibeone and others, including myself, have made
just a few people a little wiser about the things that
people have to struggle with in this part of the world.
On the subject of learning the language, congratulations,
all else being equal, this is definitely a plus. It is not
an inoculation against anything. Do not think for one
minute that being able to read Goethe in German makes you
anything other than a guy who can read Goethe in German. If
you want your German knowledge to mean anything to the
people living in Germany, it has got to be aided by things
other than simply what you have read. Furthermore,
Kazakstan(I don't know about Kazachstan, admittedly) is a
place with an oral, not written tradition. So where do
where find this great literature that the consensus in
Kazakstan has deemed its canon? The short answer, is that
much of the oral tradition was destroyed under Soviet rule.
Interestingly, this reminds me of another thing that comes
to mind when I think of what makes Kazakstan a very sad
placeû cultural genocide. Know, there is Manas and in
reality he is probably as much a story of Kazakstan as he is
of Kyrgyzstan, so there is one outlet. This proud oral
tradition, the Manas epic, has been committed to a few
books, but they are very difficult to get a hold of, because
of yes, you guessed it, the distorted priorities of the
Soviet system(see my first post). Now Mark, where is that
you have been that you have learned the language and read
all the great literature? I am interested to hear, if you
would please oblige us.
My recommendation for you, is to visit a few places where
they(the residents of the territory) are not familiar with
the literature of your native culture. Places where they
don't know Goethe from George Washington, where foreigners
are just weird people from far away, where they could give a
rat's ass about what we say about Kazakstan and get lost,
get very lost. And then take notes as to what helped you
find where you were. Do this a few places- maybe one in
Africa (preferably one with a strong ORAL tradition) and one
place with very low literacy rates (Pakistan comes to mind)
and maybe one place in the current or former communist
world(North Korea, any CIS country, China-- all good, but
for different reasons). I think then you might be able to
manage a more enlightened view on the world, one that would
allow you to ask questions and make observations about
Ibeone's or others' posts that are productive in spite of
whatever frustration Ibeone might be experiencing as a
result of his stay in Kazakstan.
Hayr,
Yawn
I believe that the information in the posting is basically
true, but you are still an asshole!
excellent post ibeeone..ive done my share of third world
traveling but that post is dead on...what a shithole...ps
how much are the birds
I've just read all of the above posts - a fascinating debate
on the cons of Kazakstan which would not be out of place in
high places of learning (apart from the occasional fuck,
shit and bastard, of course).
This kind of stuff really does bring out the worst in people
doesn't it.
I have a problem now - i'm going to visit Kazakstan on
transit from China to Kyrgyzstan and want to know, now, how
i can make it through the with no unecessary stops in this
unfortunate country.
I myself was born in Kazakhstan but moved away for
many, many years ago. I find all what you wrote very true.
But most of the cultural/behavioural things you mentined go
for the rest of the CIS. All rudeness, the secretary
business etc., it all holds for Russia for example. And the
traffic problem holds for any third world country. It sounds
like you have all the reasons to be pissed off, but I think
it would be fair to mention the thing which compensates for
all this horror: the mountains. I have never seen such
mountains, not even in Northern India or in Tibet.
I am really curious: what do you do in Kazakhstan? Did you
learn Russian because you've been living there for a while?
And where did you learn Arabic?
I find KOOMIS great, by the way. It's very tasty and
refreshing.
Am I the only woman who has read these posts? What appalled
me was not what Ibeeone said about Kazakstan - although I
dislike generalisation of any sort about a whole race, and
that goes for some of the responses as well. But what is
this SHIT about "Women know their place"...feminists by
contrast are "crew cut, ring in the nose, maladjusted
misfits" and "wide assed hos",.. Kazak women ironshirts,
feed men, wipe vomit, , and are good to "show off". If the
"poorest women dress like Paris models" what does he think
they are selling to do so? And as for telling your secretary
she has nice tits, yes that will get him accused of sexual
harrassment in most countries, as it should. Seriously, if
the country is as poor as he says, then who does he think is
probably suffering the most? Not the vodka sodden men he
describes, but the women who have to live with them, and
work to earn money to support them, and have their children
and support them too. Some of you have criticised Ibeeone
for hating a whole race. What about the fact that he seems
to hate a whole gender? Stay in Kazakstan, Ibeeone. We
d
Somehow I lost my last line! And it was a corker!
What I meant to say was:
WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!!!!!
Wrong fme, it's YOU we don't want here. Ibeeone makes some
valid points that you should think about. In addition, it
seems that it's possible to make remarks about women's tits
in most countries with impunity - those that allow feminazi
sexual harrassment lawsuits are in the minority.
Unfortunately they still do exist.
Ibeeone - I think that was a very informative summary, and I admire you for having the balls to say it like it is. Well done.
Mark - You are a complete Cockhead ! I sentence you to 6 months in a queue in Kazahkstan for being the biggest tosser on this site.
Dan - Get your hand off it, or you can join him.
Yawn - You do get it, and unlike the other 2 morons, you seem to know what you are talking about. Yep, I enjoyed your text.
I suggest we all applaud Ibeeone and Yawn for their efforts, and ignore anything the other 2 wankers have to say.
So lets all go back to our corners, and drink to the Kazaks.
fme--thank you!
...--get some help!
ibeeone--
you could have substituted "russia" for "kazakhstan" in your
original post and you would have been right on target in
your observations. in other words, life's brutal just about
everywhere in the CIS--stop whining. you probably live in
relative luxury in k-stan AND you can leave at will, unlike
the millions of starving/paris runway-model lookalikes and
their snot-nosed runts. your misogynist and racist
tendencies may be why you hate living in the third world.
did you ever consider that the overall problem (your
inability to adapt or mke real friends) could be you and
your hate, and not the 25 million other people in
kazakhstan?
I thought I would look up Kakakhstan on the Lonely Planet
site to get a little 'inside' info, from friendly people
who have travelled and worked there, etc. Instead I find
people slagging and cursing each other, with only Ibeeone
(apologies for spelling)actually saying anything of any use
to me about the country. Surely, as visitors to these
countries and cultures, we should only admire, investigate
and experience these places, we are not going to change
them, and I see no point in slagging everything off. I
have worked in the Middle East, Zambia and Uganda for about
five years and have seen my fair share of poverty and lack
of respect for life.
So, could someone please let me know what they recommend I
take over to Kazakhstan, as I will be working in Almaty and
Kyzlorda, and possibly Shymkent. I hope to take some time
off, visit Krygystan and possibly do some treks into the
Tien Shan. Is there any wildlife over there?
Any information gratefully received.
Thankyou
A potential Kakakhstan worker for three-five months.
I just want to tell you guys what I saw with my trekking
crew. Yes I am a goddamn traveller (but not rich), stayed
there for only 11 days and speaked only a very little
Russian.
The travel agent is the biggest one in Kazakstan, with 300
interns (college students). My team got one guide, one
interpreter and one cook. The guide has worked for three
seasons and his pay was USD0.5 per day. The other two only
got a quarter of USD0.5 each.(To drop a hint to those who
have never been there before, I can tell you in Almaty a
cup of pure black tea costs about USD0.5 in cafes.) Except
their tiny tent(three 6-feet squeezed in one 2-person tent)
and thin sleeping bags(which were too thin for the girl
interpreter), they didn't get any so-call gear from their
company. They didn't have any accident insurances from the
the company they worked for. In the office I also saw how
the boss treated his employees. I know how he was operating
his business : he said he has not received our T/T payment
made two monthes ago (but that's another story).
No wonder he drives a big shining Benz. I think it just one
of several he owns.
I hate Kazakstan? I am an oriental femal, an absolute alien
in European Russia and Central Asia. (Don't think all the
Asians got the same yellow face). I always remember those
warmhearted strangers I encountered there. Without their
help, it's impossible to make my (wonderful) travel in
those countries. Everything you guys said about Kazakstan
does not surprise me. However, it will be also very
interesting to know how an Asian feels after he/she stayed
in the west for monthes even years. (By the way, do you
know most of the time easterns and westerns have two
different explanations of WHY something happened,
especially when happened in the East?) I also met awful
people and things not only in CIS, but also in the States,
Western Europe and MY OWN COUNTRY, just in other styles.
This is the world.
I know your point is not those terrible facts but the
culture and society. I am not qualified to critisize or
analyze here. I am "the other". I just want to say, not all
things can be explained in terms of culture. If the life in
Kazakstan is miserable and hopeless, it doesn't mean Kazak
people (not only ethnic Kazaks) have a miserable and
hopeless culture and so they deserve such a life. And,
everyone knows it's who defined the words "culture" and
"society". Apparently not Kazaks.
Visitors like us can come and go as we wish. If I hate
Kazakstan, it's because in this country my friends and
those mild, harmless ordinary people must accept such a
life, not because I was almost extorted there. Think
about those who must stay there without any choices. Not
all of them take rudeness or any other bad things for
granted, and the pain of those mild people is more fierce.
I feel the same in my own country, you lucky guys. Anyway,
I admire you because you are still hot-blood to discuss
over such a topic.
Finally, what's wrong with koomis? For nomad it totally
makes sense to drink koomis.
Hi Sid, I thought I might try to help with your question of
"what to bring to Kazakstan?" In thinking about this just a
bit, it occured to me that you want to bring a few things
that make you laugh! These can be people(friends, family),
books, movies, objects(who knows...), or whatever. I just
think I can say, that since you have been in a good bit of
the third world, you know how to deal with the scarcity of
material necessities. Part of what makes Kazakstan(and
most of the former U.S.S.R.) a pain is the lack of spirit
or hope. Dirt poor villagers in much of Africa or India
are much more upbeat and willing to share a laugh than
even a comfortable, successful Kazak. So, humor is one of
the really rare commodities in this part of the world and
its pretty hard to buy it once ya' get there!
Yawn
I went to Kazakhstan a couple of years ago, and I thought it
was a dump, and I didn't like most of the people that I met,
which seems to be one of two points in the original post.
As a white, western european male who speaks no Russian or
Kazakh, I wouldn't claim either to understand what's going
on there, or have any appreciation of the historical
reasons for their current state. However, I do know that us
in the west, particularly the US cannot possibly have any
conception of what these people have been through and what
effect it will have on the way they behave.
The other point the original post makes, which is separate
to his observations about Kazakhstan, is that he is a grade
A bigot - a woman hater and completely intolerant of anyone
who doesn't conform to his idea of normality. To extract
anything of value from his post, you need to separate the
two - his observations of everyday behaviour are interesting
because he lives there, but his unpleasant personality makes
him incapable of drawing anything meaningful from them.
Also I seem to remember reading (some of)an almost identical
post a few months ago. Has this guy got nothing better to
do with his time than write novels about his personality
defects?
Peter
Is it just me, or does it seem like the same person is
writing some of these comments under different names?
thanks for an honest an informative post!
Peter,
You people take yourselves far too seriously. Indeed, it
actually takes very little of my total time available to
write novels about my "personality defects." I spend most
of my executive decision making time doing usefull things
like screening potential secretaries for proper hem line
height.
On your rudeness point; In some places in the Middle East it is rude to say please, as it makes a request sound like an order. In China it is an insult to offer to split the bill. In Israel friends often don't thank each other, that would imply there was a need to, and therefore they are not good friends. It's just a thought, but maybe what you perceive as rudeness is not intended as such.
To everyone else that just read through most (or all) of
this crap....
what a waste of your time!
that time has gone, you can't have it back - and
you haven't lived it!
gone... wasted.
Ibeeone,
We just read your e-mail and laughed our asses off. We
figured the least we can do is buy you a beer. (Yes, we too
live in the pristine city that is Almaty.) So, write us
back and the beer is on us!
Great posting on Kazakshtan -- we read it and laughed our
asses off. We figured the least we could do is buy you a
beer, (Yes, we live in Almaty.) Write us back.
Hey Rizzer,
If your own time is so valuable, which you obiously imply, what are you doing wasting it on this trash?
Ibeeone