$Unique_ID{bob01190} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 8, 1973. (7:33am - 7:37am)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{ehrlichman nixon pres right john magruder that's dean he's mitchell} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 8, 1973. (7:33am - 7:37am) Telephone conversation: President Nixon and John Ehrlichman Pres. Nixon: Oh, John. Hi. J. Ehrlichman: I just wanted to post you on the Dean meeting. It went fine. He is going to wait until after he'd had a chance to talk with Mitchell and to pass the word to Magruder through his lawyers that he is going to appear at the Grand Jury. His feeling is that Liddy has pulled the plug on Magruder, and that (unintelligible) he thinks he knows it now. And he says that there's no love lost there, and that that was Liddy's motive in communicating informally. Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh. J. Ehrlichman: At the same time, he said there isn't anything that he, Dean, knows or could say that would in any way harm John Mitchell. Pres. Nixon: But, it would harm Magruder. J. Ehrlichman: Right. And his feeling is that Sirica would not listen to a plea of immunity at a (unintelligible) I should say. And that (unintelligible) from him. He would be much better off to go in there and have an informal talk and that's what he wants to do. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: So obviously we didn't tell him not to, but we did say that it is important that the other people knew what he was doing. Pres. Nixon: Well, Mitchell, of course, was going to be put to the prod on this one. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. Mitchell has got to decide whether he's going to tell John Dean, "Look here, I don't think you ought to say a word or you've got to go down and lie." Well, John is not going to lie. J. Ehrlichman: He says John Mitchell is sort of living in a dream world right now. He thinks this is all going to go away. Pres. Nixon: He thinks that? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: John Dean thinks that John Mitchell is living in a dream world? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. He thinks that that's Mitchell's frame of mind on all of this. For instance, he hasn't bothered to obtain counsel. He hasn't really done much about preparing himself or anything of this kind. So - Pres. Nixon: But what does Dean think about it? J. Ehrlichman: Well, Dean says it isn't going to go away. It's right on top of us and that the smartest thing that he, Dean, could do is go down there and appear cooperative. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: So, he'll be around all day tomorrow and we'll see how this unfolds during the day. Pres. Nixon: What does he - Do you have any feeling about the Magruder thing as to what he ought to do? J. Ehrlichman: Yes. And he said, "Well, the thing that I didn't Understand was that Magruder was the target of the long Liddy discussion" . . . and there wasn't anything that he, Dean, could add. Pres. Nixon: No, no, no no. But what about the theory of your idea that Magruder ought to come in and say, look, my recollection has been refreshed and so forth. J. Ehrlichman: Well, yeah, but he said that he's satisfied that they are not really after Magruder on perjury. They are after him - Pres. Nixon: On Watergate. J. Ehrlichman: They are after somebody as the instigator of the plot. Pres. Nixon: I see. J. Ehrlichman: And that, cleaning up the Pres. Nixon: What does he think Magruder will do? Whether Magruder will - J. Ehrlichman: Well, nobody knows. Pres. Nixon: Magruder could be the loose (unintelligible) of the whole plan. J. Ehrlichman: He's entirely vulnerable and nobody knows. Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh. J. Ehrlichman: But Dean's very strong feeling is that this is a time when you just have to let if Bow. And that's his . . . Pres. Nixon: I tend to agree with him, you know. Do your J. Ehrlichman: Yes, I do. I do. Pres. Nixon: Basically, Mitchell must say - go in and hard-line it John, etc. We cannot, we can't claim privilege for Dean on this kind of matter, can we? J. Ehrlichman: I don't believe on acts prior to the investigation, no. Pres. Nixon: That's right, and that's what they're asking for and Dean says, look, I'll be very careful, etc., but . . . So, where do we go from there then? Then, he pulls the plug on Magruder, but then the point that John Mitchell has got to be concerned about is that Magruder pulled the plug on him. J. Ehrlichman: Well, that's right That's right. That's correct. Pres. Nixon: But the next question, John, they are going to ask Magruder is, "Who told you? Did you clear this with anybody? Who gave the final approval?" J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Uh, huh. Obviously. Pres. Nixon: I don't think, strangely enough. . . . If he's going to pull the plug, he's going to pull it on Mitchell rather than on Haldeman. J. Ehrlichman: Well, that's right . . . and . . . and that's the reason that we felt that not only out of fairness, but also in order to make sure that nobody felt that the White House is buying them . . . that John ought to talk to these fellows and let them know what it is that he's intending to do. Pres. Nixon: When does he have to decide this? J. Ehrlichman: Well, he has to get in touch with them tonight. Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh. J. Ehrlichman: And he thought that he would probably see them tomorrow night. Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh. J. Ehrlichman: You see, they prepare their case at night and work the jury during the day. Pres. Nixon: So he'll tell them that tomorrow night I'll talk to you and . . . tonight, he says - what's he going to say tonight? J. Ehrlichman: Well, he just says, give me an appointment tomorrow night. Pres. Nixon: So . . . he'll go over and see them. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: I think he has to do that. Pres. Nixon: That's right. J. Ehrlichman: All right, sir? Pres. Nixon: But he's got to let it off pretty hard with Mitchell he hasn't got any choice on it, that he will not testify to anything after the fact. And that he'll not testify except and then he'll be damn careful he's protective about it. Is that what he's going to say? We don't want Mitchell, you know, popping off. J. Ehrlichman: Well, he's going to just say to John that he certainly is not going to look for . . . But then, he, Dean, doesn't really know anything that jeopardizes John. Which is true. Pres. Nixon: Now, who is going to talk to Magruder? J. Ehrlichman: Ah, Dean's lawyer is going to talk to Magruder's lawyer and. Pres. Nixon: What the hell is he going to tell him, though? J. Ehrlichman: He'll tell him that John has been invited to come down for an informal conference and that he is going to have to go. Pres. Nixon: That's right. So what does that do to Magruder? J. Ehrlichman: Well. that undoubtedly unplugs him but . . . but it also alerts him in the most orderly kind of way. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: And, . . . Pres. Nixon: But John Dean says Magruder can't get off by going in and confessing to the perjury. J. Ehrlichman: No, no, he says that's not really what they're after. Pres. Nixon: They want to convict him for Watergate. J. Ehrlichman: Right. Pres. Nixon: Well, if he confesses perjury, he's going to be convicted for Watergate, right? J. Ehrlichman: Both. Pres. Nixon: They'll get him for both? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Under the (unintelligible) version of the law. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I'm afraid that if he comes down and testifies, I would guess what he will try to do is plead some sort of a constitutional protection, Fifth Amendment, or something. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. That's what I would think. He had better plead the Fifth Amendment. I don't think he's got any other choice. J. Ehrlichman: It doesn't sound like it to me. Pres. Nixon: Right. OK, you'll let me know tomorrow . . . after Ervin. J. Ehrlichman: I'll let you know after Shultz. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. J. Ehrlichman: Bye.