A hidden bonus on the Acorn User CD-ROM... email me if you discover this! editor@acorn-gaming.org.uk. This article was written during Summer 1997. If you're not an internet user then I should explain that this article contains many examples of some of the highly-informed discussion you're missing...
...a compendium of excerpts from postings in comp.sys.acorn.games...
All postings ©Copyright original authors, as indicated, reproduced without permission
This compilation ©Gareth Moore 1997
Being a history of all
When the world was created all was made free and merry, and the peoples of
all lands rejoiced in the peace of their days, knowing that the precious Orb
of Tenesu held all in perfect balance and unity. Pilgrims journeyed for many
moons in search of the embracing touch of the Orb, and no living being who
beheld her voluptuous beauty could resist the call to merge with the
swelling multitudes who sang in the cloisters of her mind and danced in
the streets of her virtue.
But such realms of prosperity are ever but a brief blink in the eye of the world, and it came to pass that too many who desired great power had not the strength of mind and character to wield it in the fair image of their forebearers.
And so as the youth of the world turned grey of root and hair so it came to be that the diaphanous web of beauty that enshrined the precious Orb grew - not to joyous maturity but instead in the bitter memory of the accursed violations of profligate strangers who raped her very soul for their own mercenary advances. Her diluted being, robbed of potency, spilt into the dregs of the world and all fell into decay and disrepute.
Here, in the annals of the Orb, lies a chronical of pilgrims to her side:
1) Would it possible on a StrongARM?
Don't see why not.
2) Would it be an advantage to stick it on a CD?
You could probably slap in loads of neat PD sound effects and ones you made yourself if you put it on CD, but I'd make a floppy version as well (I do not have a CD-ROM drive :-( )
3) I can't programme either :(
I'll help! Unfortunately, I can't program either, unless you count BBC BASIC as a decent games programming language.
I wouldn't have thought it would be that hard, particulary if you tried to
make one more like super mario 1 on the gameboy (should just need to make a
background with a little bloke running round with lots of bad guys.) Go for
it!
Greg (martins.fam@argonet.co.uk)
Great idea to do a Mario type game. Plenty of funny characters and decent
high res graphics...that's what we want (oh and exceptional gameplay)
For my sake make it SA compatible and it would be better to put in on CD
'cause CD holds more info (as U know)
If you like, I have a book entitled Learning C. If you want it let me know.
Ian Vincent (ian.vincent@argonet.co.uk)
I'm not a ZFC member so my hearings fine so pleas don't SHOUT. ;-)
Tom,
--
backwater@argonet.co.uk - Arm club member - Convergence member - ZFC
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
Hi, I'm Rob and I'm just baCK FROM QUINTIN'S EIGHTEENTH. IT WAS A BLOODY BRILLIANT PART (SANS SOUND TO START WITH BUT THAT WAS SOON FINISHED) ans three peopwle were skick in the toilet and one overmy hea d. :_ Yeah, it was cool. Oh, the \ranynor were there and so was dane Couckoo (but not for long, he left wuickly, strange that). if antwbody awants any spagre pringleds legtft over thwme we wil gladuly spupply them tiwht them as peole were kind og morc intesrslefd3ed iomtje tje fppd morte 3yhatm thrn drink. bt the wiy wr are not theVicarage in disguids And for the sheeprace fand, be warned, we now plan to code a substanceaial part of the game -clde! so nyah :p well i hdib;t jbwo jfhwhat wlezse go write and it's qclear i'm talking a whoel lot of blovkklocks hherre so i don't know thay u'm going to do but :) Did you bother rreading that before wyou sent it? B elugh! oh no i nust bget my computer cleanrt I agree, but I dion't know what the fuck you're saying. ]-one nof us IS MNURE MPIOSEED THSAN THE OTGER :) WGASA Don't go na,d Q uintin & Roberto *:^)
Please get your own postings and webpages up to sratch before starting to critize other people's contributions to the Net.
I thought my web page was up to scratch. As fo crtisisam it was
constructive. The text you can read and it is well written. It ceratinly is
better than no site at all like many. In fact I know Geoff well, and never
crticise him a lot. Even if he deserved it ;-)
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
I know some people have obvisouly got confused that I was being rude about Genden but I can certify I was not being rude etc...
I have personally stuck up for Geneden in past on this site about their games and recived much crtisisam, so yes I do support Genden. I am always in regular contact with Geoff and did actually give him a bit advice of about the web site, and can reccomend his games highly. (I spend about two hours a month on phone chatting to him, I know him better than most people here probably do).
He is also in a group, called Nemesis which I am also a member so I would have no reason to malciously crticise about Genden. Nemesis is a relatively new company/group and hopefully soon you we will have web site up and running, but until then if you'd like our catalogue please email nemesis@cyberjunky.com.
Finially can I please ask people to stop moaning at me, I thought people would relise that I was the one that has always been in defence of their games on this news group and wouldn't make such a fuss over the posting obvisouly I was wrong. (This posting is no way aimend to upset any one who posted anything about my posting)
Finally may I add that stuningly brillant lokking Backwtaer site is being
produced, which will have a massive links page for Games. (Over 200) It will
aalso work on PC browsers perfectly, so watch out for it in a week or two.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
It trully dose look good now! I've just sorted out the the problem Fresco was haveing with the contents page displaying it as Pink! Now though its the correct white.
You wont get a new free PD game each week at any other site, or a constantly
growing list of Games links like ours or, 287mhz SA instructions etc...
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
Believe it or not. I have had many complimemts about the presentation of
pages. I do much pulshing work and the reason people pay me to do the
publshing for their book/magazine/poster, is becuase they heard my
prestentaion/desighn is very good. In postings I acknolwedge sometimes I
have the ood typo but my postings are still clear and of benefit to
newsgroups. I am happy to supply testaments and example of my work by post
if you are intrested to pay me for some desighn work.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
...and when we launch the new site we will be every Acorn Gamers
bookmark!
Err will it really:/
Yes, I can't deny being popular before!
I'm not Jokeing either, though I must admit the site was only decent using
Arc Web.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
Yeah right. DO Games Scene is the best place, and I don't need to go
advertising it 20 times a day. Word of mouth is the best form of
advetisement.
Al McRonald (mcron@argonet.co.uk)
[Digital Oasis Games Scene]
I've just been there nothing is see is very exclusive. The site is very
small compared to what we'll be offering. Competions aren't bad but we'll
have them too. Its not updatde weekly like we will.
Tom, (Smugly)
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
No I wouLd AU is very good. tHE DISCS IN THE OAST FEW MONTHS HAVE FEATURED
MANY FAB GAMES.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
Did you even look at that before you posted it??
Robert Titman (robert.t@argonet.co.uk)
TBA say a lot but never seem to produce a lot.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
Wrong!
Its nearly complete for the Acorn, why not go to the Acorn Command and
Conquer web site for more info.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
Sorry, this is WRONG. There is **NO** plan at all to being C&C onto
the Acorn platform.
Stuart Marshall (d.s.mars@argonet.co.uk)
Kieran Brown: Sigh..... Anyone want to tell this guy why this won't work?
Well actually seing as I wrote this, I thought I might as well reply arogant little persons remarks. It does compile on my Amiga 1200 so I am sure that anyone with half a brain, (unlike Kieran L. Brown) could compile it. I have done the hard part and put it on the net and then some spotty teenager who thinks he is a programmer,(ha ha ha te he he) seems to think that IT WILL NOT WORK. What do you take me for I would not waist my valuable web space with rubish. ID soft do not care becasue you have to buy the PC version to get the data files so what is the problem ?
I suggest that you Kieran leave this newsgroup and do not come back.
Area51 (jgrant@argonet.co.uk)
"TANKS is like Worms with 99% of the concept, graphics, sound and gameplay removed, and bucketloads of shite put in instead."
I was _appalled_ by TANKS. I would've been appalled by it if it had appeared on an Archimedes World disc from 5 years ago, but to have this hailed as cutting-edge games technology on the Risc PC in 1996 made me ill to the pit of my stomach. Acorn users are indeed desperate for games if they're willing to fork out thirty quid for such a travesty.
And Shuggy's just as bad.
Paddy Spencer (paddy.spencer@parallax.co.uk)
And Shuggy's just as bad.
I disagree. Shuggy seems to be even worse (oops, sorry).
Thomas Boroske (y0001006@ws.rz.tu-bs.de)
Worms is cheaper than Tanks and the entire Dizzy collection is on sale for a
tenner. I think any outrage you're getting over your two games is that you
treat them as value-for-money commercial products when they are in fact
desperate attempts to capitalise on a starved Acorn games market, games which
wouldn't be seen dead as shareware on any other platform. You are deluding
yourself if you think there's no comparison between the Acorn games market
and any other.
Matthew Bloch (mattbee@eh.org)
"TANKS is like Worms with 99% of the concept, graphics, sound and gameplay
removed, and bucketloads of shite put in instead."
But using decimals that would be 99.9%
Acorn users are indeed desperate for games if they're willing to
fork out thirty quid for such a travesty.
There are dome dumb people about.
And Shuggy's just as bad.
Have to disagree with this. Shuggy is faaaarrr worse.
Anarchy (n.a.atkinson@durham.ac.uk)
my kids [..] LOVE Shuggy!
I think they can get help on the NHS. See your GP.
Anarchy (n.a.atkinson@durham.ac.uk)
I think people are being too hard on Shuggy
as well. I'm not just defending it because my review of it in Acorn User
wasn't so negative, I really did quite like it.
Tony Houghton (tonyh@tcp.co.uk)
As for Iron Dignity, you will have to wait a while I think before anything using the engine is released.
If TBA was managing Iron Dignity then we would worry about speeding up the
engine (or replacing it with something else that can do the job ) and getting
a decent 2D graphic artist, 3D artist, animator and musician onto the job.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Show how much you know then doesn't it. If Iron Dignity was to run on TAG then the framerate would improve by at least twice as much as it is now.
Also BHP is chucking around a hell of a lot more polygons than Iron Dignity is,
although it is not in true colour, it will be in high res.
To be honest I wouldn't play a game that is at the obviously low framerate that
Iron Dignity is.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I really wondered if you were serious showing BHP in Mode 13.
Come on, that's a relic of past Archimedes times.
Franke Foehl (foehlfk@tick.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de)
Iron Dignity is just a demo but it seems to be a lot more impressive to me.
Unfortunatly if you are fished in by pretty but very slow visuals then that is
your problem.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Nothing would upset me more than to see your work go unfinished
without reward, or worse still, end up the same way that Drifter did. ( ie a
good concept, but one that was released before its time. )
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
The Rally demo and the Dinosaur managed to slow down
a StrongARM even in Mode 13, which is quite an achievement indeed.
Franke Foehl (foehlfk@tick.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de)
[Iron Dignity]
The texture mapping wobbles around the place, and the animation is a simple
jointed leg. Hardly ground breaking stuff.
The light sourcing seems to be simple algorithms and nothing special.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
[Iron Dignity and Frank Foehl]
The Dinosaur is 2734 polygons that are being realtime lit and also realtime
mesh morphed between several keyframes. Plug that into your engine and see it
crawl along. In fact I'd be happy to port it into your engine to show you
exactly where you are going wrong.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Martin, I don't know you. But I have to say I start to hate your
attitude and the nonsense you keep writing. Please complete
BHP and stop talking about how good your TAG engine is. We've all
heard it a few times already.
Thomas Boroske (y0001006@ws.rz.tu-bs.de)
Strange I'm getting emails saying exactly the oppostire that the ID demo looked
sparse and the models look bad. Some of then I agree with cos the walker does look "boxey" and bland.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I should also like to know Martin how you can have the gaul to sit there and
after using this news group solely for your own publicity then attempt to rip
to pieces people like Andrew Docking or Frank Fohl when they dare show there
heads on this group?
Ben Ollivere (benjamin.ollivere@sjc.ox.ac.uk)
Really? This is must laugh at. Lats time I saw DaVinci, its was chugging around
trying very hard to render scenes that look fairly simple.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Someone can quite easily compare full game specs with some bodged and contrived special case rendering figures.
However it is the person that tries to compare these, as you have done Ben,
that shows themselves to be rather stupid and lacking. Or perhaps you have
another motive?
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Again Piper's ego takes hold and he laughs at things he knows nothing about.
Ben Ollivere (benjamin.ollivere@sjc.ox.ac.uk)
However if the models were re-modeled to be 'cheese wedges' and the
track was simplified then it would run on an ARM2 but the downside is
that it would look like Drifter. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Oh dear oh dear oh dear, is that meant to be a cutting remark? I pitty you.
Learn to follow threads a bit better first. Do not blame your news server
because I know that your server is in perfect working order as I have
received replys from "durham.ac.uk" about posts I sent yesterday.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
BTW QTM is the slowest music player I have dome across, wastes processor
time, doesn't play tracks accuratly and worst of all the memory handling
corrupts memory causing loss of data.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Or you could try adding some proper arguments to this thread instead of jumping
on a couple of posts and spouting a load of rubbish that wastes space.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
A small group of people then stir things up by reuqesting things like poly
counts again(!), spouting rubbish, making innaccurate claims, making wrong
assumptions etc.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
[A 'deliberately argumentative' example]
The programmers I know really hate QTM and wouldn't use it if it the last music
player around. In my opinion I'd be embarressed to even release QTM as "I don't
care ware".
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I have tried to help you produce better algorithms and coding practices by the
only way you reply is by saying "it'll be OK" and by adding hege to the end of
your sentances in a way which is very flippant. If you want to carry on like
this then that is fine by me, I don't honestly care, I am past caring. You
carry on as you have been and watch the bugs come rolling in matey and I shall
laugh. hehe.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I will also be willing to cut MY fee to you for this help. ( By the way I will not fullfill any of the above points until my fee clears into my bank account. My fee is payable upfront for a minimum period of one month at a time. I charge normal contract programmer rates. These are my conditions and they are non-negotiable. )
Now you cannot say fairer than that can you. I now await your reply with even more baited breath than before.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
However, for me anyway, that doesn't mean write commodore 64 spec games that
only just run on a strongarm.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
Simon Jones: The Acorn games market has been working hard to pull itself together and
now, just as it seems as if it might just do it, these arguments look set to
drive another rift straight down the middle!
I don't think I'd describe it as down the middle -it seems to be very
much down to one person in the market.
[..]
The problem on the
news groups is caused by one person (you all know who I mean) who has
recently spent all his time broadcasting unsubstantiated claims for
his own products and rubbishing everybody else, often either without
seeing their code, or based on very early demo version.
[..]
If anybody *hasn't* worked out who I'm talking about, then they
might want to reflect that the man in question has a notorious
problem with release dates, and has been heavily involved in both
the BHP/Destiny and BHP/Iron Dignity arguments...
Christopher Joseph (trin0106@sable.ox.ac.uk)
Broadcasting unsubstantiated claims? OK then I would like you to name one and
if possible without revealing too many company secrets I will post the reply
right back here again.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
That wasn't an attempt at being sarcastic or rude, it was a genuine call. If
you saw someone trying, in your opinion, to stir up a thread I expect you would
say something similar?
We all would like to hear your thoughts on how Destiny could be re-stuctured to
provide a better gameplay experience.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I think people are generating a paranoid attitude about you.
Is it still paranoia when everyone really is out to get you?
Tim B (timothy@armage.demon.co.uk)
I would even go as far as to say that the extra code needed to "step" movements
an arbitrary amount based on the previous frames time ( or whatever ) takes
even longer to calculate than doing it a simple incremental approach.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
No oh no oh no. Why do people think limiters ( aka frame rate clamping )
need to be used on games? No games programmer who has a brain ties the game
update to the frame update speed.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
[Talking about Drifter]
As an example I draw your attention to some
posts saying "I will have to return XXXXX product because it runs unplaybly
quickly of my SA due to the game code not syncing properly". This product,
which shall remain nameless, also uses the same method of gameplay syncing as
you are using in Destiny. Which, as many games programmers that know their
stuff, is very very bad indeed.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Perhaps you haven't really tried something that would be suitable to
model how monsters could behave?
Umm yes infact I have. The first example is a game on the C64 that coped with
200-400 monsters ( OK they were robots but its the same thing ) that tracked you
through a multilevel maze. ( It was a big space ship type of thing ) They all
had varying degrees of intelligence. ie. Some would follow you. They would use
their internal maps of the ship and when you destroyed walls they would notice
the fact and update their route finding algorithms approatiatly. They would
become scared of you if you had a big gun. They would learn where the player
prefered to wait in ambush for the monsters and avoid those places. They would
commicate with each other and setup ambushes for the player as well. As well
as leading players towards these ambushes. Above all they learnt how to
interact with the players style of play and adjusted their tactics accordingly.
I think this demonstrates my ability to optimise for slow processors and also
low memory situations.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Now then since i've given you about 0.003% of destiny
you should trivially be able to figure out exactly how everything works,
including the scene data structure, now get to it, i'll check the newsgroups in
a few days time and i expect a full listing! WITH COMMENTS! heheheh!
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
[Destiny]
I know for a fact that even an ARM2 based machine can cope with the amount of
game object you want to update, without any loss of complexity. Why do I know
this? Well its easy, if a 1MHz 6502 can do it then so can an ARM2. All you have
to do is think slightly differently. HINT: Games players don't notice when the
things you can do are a big huge horrible bodge. This way you can drastically
reduce huge amounts of processing time. Just think tangentially and I expect
you'll see the solution.
How on Earth do you think we coded games in the past on small little home
machines while still needing huge levels with masses of sprites/aliens etc?
Thats right we used to optimise our code and alogrithms to squeeze the very
last drop out of 60K of usable memory and 1MHz ( ooooh count it! ) of processor
power. Ask me someday how I managed to get 300 different robots wandering
intelligently about a huge ( 10x10 screens ) level all in 64K, I'd love to
waffel on all day about that one I can tell you!
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I know, you are correct. How could i possibly disagree with someone who claims a 6502 could do
everything destiny requires.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
[In support of Martin Piper not Rob Templeman:]
He's showing a damn sight more sign of knowing how to write a 3D
walkabout game than you. Anyone who's programmed any game (even if it's
only Bombz and a few magazine games for the Electron) can see he's
talking sense.
Tony Houghton (tonyh@tcp.co.uk)
One developer recently offered advice to a less
experienced one when it became obvious a long hoped for game was being
developed wrongly only to get slapped down all over again, while nobody
batted an eyelid at the second developer's long stream of childish and
spiteful responses.
Tony Houghton (tonyh@tcp.co.uk)
Pessimist ... sometimes. Low opinion of the readers? Who am I to say?
But as for the contributors :) Well, howe shal Iput htis ... You've
obviously deliberately misunderstood my previous posting, and
therefore should be killfiled by everyone in the world, because you're
a complete idiot and I am obviously right. Have you ever written a 14
dimensional virtual reality shootemup time travel car racing game
which runs on everything from a ZX80 to a Cray T3E at the same frame
rate? I thought not. Hehe! Our software, despite having never been
updated, or indeed written, is better than yours. Why? Because I say
so. Any evidence to back that up? It runs faster on an A305 than yours
does on a StrongARM RiscPC with fully populated Hydra. That's not a
fair comparison, and you never update or bugfix
yours. Rubbish. Alright, not in the last year. Aroncs' New Brosweer
wil supeort everyething in the wordl. How do I overclock my 566MHz AMD
K8 and make it still work with my 16Mb Matrox Megalomanium Graphics
card and 64x CDROM drive and intel PSX mortarboard and a Red Box?
<chorus> "We don't know".
William Gallafent (gallafnt@plato.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
No I havn't forgotton how slow the ARM2 is, remember I was writing ARL using
a 3010 and 4megs of memory ( woo! ). I could easily have 100's of entities
flying around with their updates running in the way I have described many times
before as well as plotting the 3D world and everything else. They would aim at
you when they saw you, they would move towards you intelligently, they would
also avoid bits of landscape and all their bullets would collision detect with
anything I told them to do. In effect exactly the same sort of 3D movement you
are describing for Destiny, and I assure you just as complex. The difference
is that I coded in 100% hand optimised ARM, what were you using? Umm compiled
BASIC I think you said plus bits of ARM, oh dear.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Martin Piper: If you had bothered to even read TBA's web pages ( btw I run TBA along with
my partners incase you don't know ) and bothered to go along to the #acornquake
meet ( which btw was great fun and must be done again ) then you would have
avoided even posting. ;-)
Do you mind if I point out that fact that your WWW site contains absolutely
noting about Quake?
Stephen Crocker (crok@crok.demon.co.uk)
That would be TBA's web pages that contain horribly old and out of date
statistics, don't even mention Quake, Destiny or TAG 3 and haven't been
seriously updated in quite some time, would it? :-)
Big Mad Drongo (iapetus@swallows.demon.co.uk)
Dear whoever you are,
May I point out that you are talking a load of complete rubbish that has
no foundation in the truth what so ever and is totally inaccurate. I will now
point you to the replies from your post that will doubtless follow showing you
how wrong you are.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
No i haven't ignored anyones concerns, i have addressed the valid ones. The
ONLY concern is that a few things weren't frame independant, they are now.
What i did do is reject your idea of a fixed speed update loop, because after
an initial tactful rejection you kept persisting in pushing an innapropriate
technique, and rubbishing my work, but then your alterior motives are rather
obvious.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
Besides the problem isn't with the monsters AI, thats very quick, the work
load arises from allowing monsters to roam freely without letting them walk
through walls, walk up steps too high and commit suicide down large drops etc..
These problems do not manifest themselves in any 2D game. I would have thought
that anyone who claims to be a games programmer would immediately realise this.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
Now Quake, as far as I can make out, assumes no upper limit to its framerate
but imposes a lower limit to the slowest frame rate.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
By the way I already have a version of Destiny and from what I have seen it
is the most horrible mish-mash of basic and ASM I have had the misfortune to
see for a long while. Also most of your algorithms have certain mathamatically
proveable holes in them that still exhibit the same "features" as those
mentioned in an old version of the comp.sys.graphics.algorithms FAQ.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
1) Mathimatically prove where you are going wrong with your algorithms,
2) Fix your algorithms to work in a coherant ( ie constant time delta ) way
suitable for correct frame inpendant code,
3) Give you some object-orientated code modules for your game object entities
database managment,
4) Also including a API that will enable you to automatically support the
RISC PC 2 hardware specifaction with multiple CPUs and graphics processor
( very usefull for bi-linear filtering and mip-mapping acceleration ).
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
As to their rubbish content, everything I have posted is technically correct
and hasn't been shown to be flawed.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Proven, oh no you havn't. You havn't shown anything before, where as I have
given you countless examples of why it WILL work.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Thats not true, eg. you claim an ARM2 could do the updates in destiny at 50hz,
i trivially disproved that.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
Lets just say a few points here. Robert in this post of which I have snipped a great deal you have been deliberatly rude and argumentative. In fact the entire volume of your post contained nothing of interest and nothing new. Instead it contained a lot of phrases which do not add up to anything at all, except to try and insult myself and my knowledge in this particular field.
Also I suspect you feel you are really loosing it if you have to post such long discourses of nothing just so you can hide behind waffle and not confront the facts.
However it will not work and I will not rise to your stupid ramblings any longer until you have something sensible to say. You may remember at the start of this thread I made a ( pretty much ) mathimatical proof why the method you are using is prone to numerical innaccuracies and adverse effects. I have also shown how it is possible for your minimum specification to operate at about the same processor usage using this method. Other people have publicly posted that what I have said is true.
Now unless you can matimatically prove I'm wrong then shut up and listen! Posting a few lines of code is not a proof by the way, For Gods sake man I have YOUR best interests at heart here!
As to your last statement in which you ask for an "OPEN CHALLENGE" as you put
it, what you ask for has already been proved.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I have spent my time and more learning computers and
video games and have become very very good at it too.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I would quote my CV of experience but that'll take a few pages of tightly
packed text which I will not subject this newsgroup to. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Frank Foehl: I'd like to point out that the Iron Dignity preview uses by default not only twice the resolution of BHP, but also three times the colour depth, meaning a six times better image quality (and eight times the VRAM that needs to be filled each frame)
To be honest your engine, at the moment, is way too slow to be used inside a game. ... While your demo maintains a framerate of about 8-10 fps the same scene rendered in TAG in hires in truecolour would be running at 15-20fps. The same scene rendered in TAG base mode ( mode 13, low colour ) would be running at a constant rate of 50 frames per second or greater.
...
From this you can surmise that BHP uses approximatly 2-3 times as many
polygons per screen than your demo does. To be honest TAG was handling demos like yours running on an ARM3. OK, not running in true colour but you know what I mean.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Sadly, you won't be able to prove what you write, so it's up to the
reader to believe you or not. As for myself, I don't.
Franke Foehl (foehlfk@tick.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de)
You may think that 10-12 fps is OK, however we do not. 10-12 fps is considered
far to slow and jerky to be usable.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
12 fps is not playable. 12 fps is barely playable. 10 fps is acceptable in the
horrible world of PC games. 12 is not acceptable for games companys that prefer
to add gameplay.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
[Iron Dignity]
But not as many polygons as there are in BHP. The light sourcing is not better, it is just that we do not use the fullest lighting calculations because they are slower.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
In BHP I can tell you there are several thousand polygons plotted per frame.
With a world database of many many thousands of polygons for each race track.
As you say, a low resolution doesn't really fit the number of polygons BHP
is chucking around. Therefore we have upped the resolution to something that
still maintains a playable framerate and also offers much improved visuals.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
The point is that we are still going to support lower end machines. Not
everyone has SA's. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Thomas Boroske: please give us the number of polygons that BHP uses (min/max/avg) and the numbers you've hacked out of Iron Dignity. That way we can compare.
That would be a trade secret. ;-) You would have to take me at my word.
However I can say that the cars themselves take up 900 polys, and in a current
scene I grabbed while driving around there where around 2000 polys in total
being drawn. Not including those being hidden removed.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
OK after trawling through the many ( read hundreds ) of posts and emails about BHP I've come up with the following list that people want to see changed or improved or added. Tell me if you spot anything I have missed!
Key:
* Going into the final game. ( Fingers crossed! )
! Would be nice, but as an upgrade when the target specs are finalised.
? Err probably not going in.
* Higher resolution. 480x352 or maybe 640x480
* Better car models.
* More track detail.
* Very intellegent car AI. including...
* AI cars getting bored and trying to ram you off the road.
* AI cars that are not bodged and stuck to the road.
* AI cars that peform exactly the same as a human player would.
* Car power slides.
* Realistic crashes, explosions, flames.
* Cones,
* birds,
? people (!!!)
on the track that you hit.
* Cars jumping off the surface of the track.
* Shadows.
* Qualify modes, head to head modes, a death match mode.
* Lots of extra car types.
! Lots of tracks. ( ie more than three )
* Difficulty levels.
* Internet and local network multiplayer options.
! Steering wheel, accelerator and brake pedals to plug into the Arc.
! Higher colour depth rendering and smoothing shading for those that want to
look at pretty things.
! Support for RISC PC2 multiple processors.
! Support for RISC PC2 PCI graphical accelerators.
* A demo on the web pages.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Power slides are very important and is one of the things playtest has come
up with.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Ben Ollivere: If you are going to argue something at least be consistent, either you can or can't judge from demos, either way Iron Dignity is impressive - what do you think the fps on Rally are? Switch the view to 9 and the display to VGA, and it probably gets about 9fps as you drive under the bridge - not very impressive when you compare like with like, ie with Iron Dignities demo.
Apart from you know very well the frame rate doesn't drop when you do that.
So why do you bother posting such lies?
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Mind you this situation will change
soon because when BHP is finished and I have some spare time a demo will be
produced with all the ( quick! ) effects in 16/24 bit I can think of.
Namely textured, shaded, translucent galleons probably. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Duh look at the web pages again...
Also coloured lighting and transparancy are as easy to add as pressing a
button.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I am going to release a demo after BHP is finished that will show all
the features TAG is capable of. These include:
8/16/24 bit variable resolution rendering.
RGB multiple lights with smooth shading and perspective correct texturing.
Bi-linear and tri-linear mip mapping.
Translucent alpha values per texcell and interpolated.
etc etc.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
[Destiny and frame rate independence]
A simple question and if you now refuse to answer it then you must be doing
something wrong. I'll even help you, I can say without hesitation that any TAG
( and other engines ) games published by us HAS to conform to such standards,
thus gaurenteeing that the game will feel exactly the same to play no matter
what spec machine you run it on.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Destiny will happily use every last scrap of
processing ability & memory that any acorn machine can offer.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
More like exclusives! Such as the release to the Net of Rail 28. Also
release to the net long lost games like the brillant battle game Risk which
no one knew exsisted. Then brirnging a Rail 28 track editor on to net. +
many more unique releases of free games.
...
Well we csn't offer the cahnce of winning a game every issue but always a
free one! I do have some competions lined up from Pro Action, and 4D.
...
When the site comes out of hibernation you'll find a game news section. Eg
the inof about a Destiny Demo being sent off for a CD five weeks ago! (We
had the info five weeks ago)
Not that good really, must try and make it better!
Well thats wwhat we're doing and we will be better than all that! :-)
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
[Quake]
Sale? No I plan to make it freely available
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I am not spreading rumours about Acorn Quake, they are the facts so you
are wrong yet again it seems.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Yes really, though now its all gone from my systems thank God! ;-)
Its one to watch out for though...
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
In the mean time I am sure you will understand why everyone
here is so disbelieving then...
I understand that people that when people have asked me for demos and I have
had to say no then some start slagging off things they havn't seen yet. Yes,
its called envy. Or something similar. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Is this reticence on you part [to allow people to use the new TAG] because (as someone suggested) because you don't want people to see that the engine can't do everything you claim, or is there another reason?
Nope the reason is that we get snowed under by people requesting licenses.
Which is good. Sometimes emails do get lost by my horribly shambly email
setup though, and sometimes people are at Uni and so want the paper work sent
through to their parents place and it gets lost there. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Christopher Joseph: Can I ask what framerate your version of Quake runs at, then?
20 fps on the entrance room, the slowest part. Greater than that on most other
parts of the game.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
BTW someone is killing articles from this and other threads on c.s.a.games,
whoever it is you will be tracked down and your internet access cut off. This
is not helpfull at all to the rest of the people that frequent c.s.a.games.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Mind you one way to stop desktop hacker from hacking a game is to make your
game refuse to start up unless it can kill any existing modules called 'hacker'
and then start up your own module ( that does nothing ) called 'hacker'.
Tee hee, this is exactly what Axis did btw and had the Desktop Hacker guys
totally confused.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Also may I point out that when I chose to end the Iron Dignity thread by
stating on news an entire summary of what had happend in the thread plus
conslusion and a note asking for corrections to be made ( after which I would
post ant corrections to the same thread a week later ) I received a grand total
of no ammendments. From this I gatered that everyone was in agreement since
there were no followups relating to the conclusion of that thread.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I notice, in addition to the arbitrary roll of the observer's location, FQuake doesn't have any bad guys/dogs/ogres/spectres/bosses, 'furniture' (like health boxes, armour, weaponry, ammo boxes etc.) flying bullets/rockets/grenades/nails, explosions, moving water surfaces, discoloured ripply underwater views, collision detection or enemy 'intelligence' to worry about at the moment. Oh, and it still crashes when you get very near the water surface, and gives up displaying the surface for points within a certain distance of the observer.
Mind you though John they are only trivial points that would take a max of
a couple of days to sort out. Go easy on the guy, its not at all easy working
with ID's graphic formats, believe me I know. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Area51: Hi
I don't mean to any anyone but when I phoned up TBA today the person I spoke
to said that he did not think there was much chance of RiscQuake comming out
in the next 12 months. So either I phoned the wrong company, The bloke I
spoke to was lying or Martin was lying (which I hope he isn't because Quake
is an exellent game.
The bloke you spoke to wasn't briefed properly on fortcoming market stratagies
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
You have got to ask yourself which engine has spent the longest in the Acorn world? Which engine has ateam of programmers behind it, improving it nearly every day? Which engine is compatible with ARM2 to SA? Which engine has been used by the greatest number of developers so far? Which engine shows its self over several products to be quicker than the rest?
I think you'll find that every answer is TAG.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Oh OK then, remember that ( ahem )
"StarFox" demo I prodcued at the TBA stand many many many years ago? That one
used the same method too, it worked just fine on an ARM2 machine and it only
took 2 weeks of work to code it up and draw the graphics and find music and
samples.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
4) Mythical engine? No far from it in fact, I could show you development screen shots of the latest game using TAG3 but I can't because I would be breaking a contract.
5) That Quake escaped by electronic espionage rather than being released.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Chris Rutter:
* the shot is being viewed in Paint (note lower-case `q')
* the TAG directories are standard ones for the TAG kit
* the `3dfx' directory is one he created
* he wasn't playing it in a window
Really, so tell me how I was able to play Quake and maintain an IRC chat then
and also give someone a preview of some rather pretty 3DFX screen shots of a
project I'm working on? ;-)
OK OK so running in the desktop is the slowest thing to do but hey its sorta
fun. Makes my Arc look like an SGI running GLQuake.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I beleive you do not have the
computer neccassary to run the software, of my latest project. This as you will
see is basically Quake2 with added bits. That should keep you quiet and at
least prove I know what I'm talking about when I say "you are doing it wrong!"
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Also with Quake the PSX's
graphics architecture doesn't help that much at all.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
And don't forget to clear your mailbox for that large email I'm gonna send you.
And yes it uses TAG3 with a 3DFX, and no I don't consider that cheating. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
One to bear in mind Frank.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
How do you calculate that?
You forget, first and formost I'm a "hacker" therefore I know about these
things. And how to extract these figures.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
You seem to forget that I am a hacker, a hackers job is to find out these sort
of facts and figures from any software he can get his hands on.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Oh come on, being a medic, you should know the human eye and brain can easily
tell the difference between a fast frame update and a slow frame update.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I prefer the big sperical translucent type ones with many layers whoosing
out from the center.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
How many objects are being real time morphed in BHP?
That would be telling... ;-) Though I will say more than zero.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Time is but a fleeting thing that seems to get lost somewhere between waking hours. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
If you have a question here is the answer to everything, 42
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
I do notice that even though weeks ago you told me to "accept opinions" you
yourself have replied to the post I made. Humm interesting.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Don't think i've not thought it out or dont understand what youve been trying
to say (dont mis-read the double negative hehe!), my phd is based upon computer
modelling of Galactic molecular clouds which entails very detailed variable
step-size time integrators.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
In fact at the moment I am studying part time on the theories of baryonic dark
matter and their appliance of motion to our Galaxy. Perhaps our studies could
be mutually helpfull. Though I myself don't have a PHD as I no longer have time
and I would miss the regular money coming in. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
By the way somebody who has a wider field of interest in the computing market
and at least knows what I am talking about is a mark of a true programmer,
much like most of the sensible people that inhabit this news group. ( Rob T
is the exception to this rule however. )
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Now you are resorting to be rude when you are loosing a battle, which has the
effect of invalidating your previous statements.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
So I could say "nerrrrr" to your silly rantings and vain attempts to did yourself ou t of a hole but I won't.
Instead I will say "take this as a learning experience for you have many
things to learn".
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I will take this oppertunity that you have obviously dived into this
discussion without reading any relating material and as such I suggest you
retract your entire post right now and in public. To do otherwise would prove
you are infact a time waster who should go onto everyones kill list. However to
appologise in public when you make hugely wrong assumptions is a mark of
courage and will be respected.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Now you know I havn't the time to write a Destiny clone, after all I'm hard
at work on Quake, BHP et al.
But as you can see from my two examples I know pretty much what will work and
what won't work since, my dear friend, I have tried or seen tried most methods
( not the most, I can't say all 'cos thats never true ) of doing things over
many many years. You see Rob, while you've spent your time trying to get a
"Dr." before your name I have spent my time and more learning computers and
video games and have become very very good at it too.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
How do you know what I have written, if you go to the Tokyo Toy Show this year
then keep a watch out for a new exciting 3D walk around game for a PC and a
3DFX. I can't mention the name for contractual reasons ( but I'll try and put
up a few piccys on the web ) but it is a total of about 6 weeks work from
design to engine/editor to how it looks now. I'm proud of my work so don't you
dare try to insult me again by blatently ignoring valid points put to you or I
will loose my temper.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Also the proof of my other work is out there, quite a lot infact if you can
be bothered to keep up with the rest of the games industry and not just the
Acorn market.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Excuse me, unless you are doing something extremely intensive, like having a
small learning neural network for each monster then I know precisly how you
should be updating the monsters in Destiny. I am fully aware how long AI for
monsters inside an arbitrary game takes to write and execute. I am also fully
aware about how the routines should be used inside a game of this type and also
how to optimise the alogrithms to make the best use of processor speed, spare
game time and accuracy.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Ahh telepathy is a skill i've not yet developed.
So you can't read peoples minds? Interesting its part of my job description.
How else am I meant to second guess managment staff when a demo of this or that
is needed with five minutes warning. Maybe its a sixth sense that coders
develop after a long time.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
However since you are new to this games programming lark, I assume you agree I
have the most games programming experience here, if you wish to reconsider your
flippant attitude I will be happy to help you.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
It was then surmised that the way the programmer had implemented the gameplay
code was ( in my eyes and other peoples too ) a little naive.
I have then posted several times offering a different way to solve this
problem. By the way the solution to this is a simple one and is one that is
easy to implement on all processors. It has also been a tried and tested method
used by the wider ( ie not just Acorn ) games programming community for several
years now, probably longer.
The programmer of Destiny has since responded in a very flippant way saying
that its not worth trying to sort out this problem.
After that I in frustration I responded in an equally flippant way. ( See I am
honest. )
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
But perhaps they only take so long because Rob is using some rather
inefficient algorithms... Although I've not seen any of the code
for TAG, I'd have to say that Martin appears to know what he's
talking about and Rob seems to dismiss all of his postings in a
rather flippant way.
Richard Wilson (richard@wilsontigger.demon.co.uk)
I and a few others have tried and tried to steer you into a more correct way of
writing things but all you have done is to blatently ignore the advice of this
newgroup and respond with petty comments and a very flippant attitude.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Argonet Ch Ch Ch
Argo Argo
There the best
Brilliant compared to the rest
Sorry about my rhyme but I thought it was the best way to advertise how good
argonet is compared to the rest.
Area51 (jgrant@argonet.co.uk)
But still TBA will say,
Ours is better Wa-Hey!
Tim Boura (timothy@armage.demon.co.uk)
There was also a young man called Piper,
Whose engine was coded much nicer,
Or so he claimed
When he was blamed
For saying RobT's code was shi....
Adam Iley (a.iley@argonet.co.uk)
There once was a bloke called RobT,
Who coded a fab game - Destiny.
"The algorithms are full of bugs,
But the Acorn users are mugs,
They'll snap it up, you'll see."
Michael Marshall (micm@enterprise.net)
Destiny, now that game's cool,
The graphics will make us drool,
The effects will splendid,
When the monsters lives are be ended,
Though as far as Martin's concerned, I'm talking bull!
Michael Marshall (micm@enterprise.net)
Could it be that in our own way we are passing judgement upon these people and
their games through the use of poetry. Maybe that we are too reserved to give a
direct opinion and that we have to express ourselves in a more subtle way?
Come on people, put your opinion where your poetry is, and say who you favour
of the two sparring coders.
Robert Billington (robbill@super.net.uk)
Some have even come back with constructive critasism, which I do not mind
getting, because in the end it will help make a better game.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Oh come on, now you are spouting rubbish
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I'm not slagging it off as such, just pointing out some weak spots which with
time could be improved upon.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Can't you give hugely inflated egotistical responses without being abusive?
Ben Ollivere (benjamin.ollivere@sjc.ox.ac.uk)
What was wrong with the presentation?
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)
That weekend was quite long, don't you think?
Oh complain complain complain.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Try to gather all the facts before making comments.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
As far as you are concerned its a load of balls. As far as I'm concerned its
a fact.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I respond with facts.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Non-textured 8bpp? Why for Gods sake?
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Hope this helps you enjoy the newsgroup more.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
It is also difficult to maintain a
decent discussion when there are a couple of people deliberatly stirring things
up with scathful posts.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Just my helpfull comments.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I'm not going to add anything more to this pointless flame war.
Ben Carter (ben@gunk.demon.co.uk)
That bit of your posting is probably the most innacurate statement and the
biggest example of deliberate stirring, on the entire newsgroup.
P R Wheatley (csxprw@scs.leeds.ac.uk)
The comment I made is an example of how one or two people were deliberatly
stirring before about TAG, don't forget.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Now if I was to stir a bit more I could continue the discussion along the lines
of:
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I hope you now see my point that it only takes one person hell-bent on trying
to stir something, for whatever reason, to conjour up an almighty ton of [censored].
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
What a totally childish thing to do.
Solomon Paul Sammy (sps@argonet.co.uk)
You are comparing chalk with nuclear waste.
Solomon Paul Sammy (sps@argonet.co.uk)
I fail to see why this is true. * FX: Puts on teacher hat *
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
[Destiny and Rob Templeman]
To help you, now I'm begining to let out some optimisation secrets but hat the
hell.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Ooook, noooo.
ahhhhh, eeeeeewww, yesssssss, uuggghhh (oops that was the chicken vindaloo,
getting excited here!)
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)
But do not try and post slurs against me, they will not work.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Thank you very much for the assassination of our product.
Dane Koekoek (dane@werewlf.demon.co.uk)
Martin, Your babbling rubbish again.
Jon Harrop (jon@isiselec.demon.co.uk)
Rob T is known to be *very* good at typing 'hehe'.
Richard Wilson (richard@wilsontigger.demon.co.uk)
Yet more drivel from the Vicar's Fridge I'm affraid... :-(
Stuart Marshall (d.s.mars@argonet.co.uk)
Oooooh if only you knew, if only you knew. Stop digging now.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
</sarcasm>
Fascinating, fascinating indeed. I'm impressed, no I really am, honest.
<sarcasm)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Um you are wrong, totally wrong and could be more wrong if you went the the
University of wrongness and took a master degree in being wrong. ie. You are
wrong. If I were you I'd be carefull talk like that could be considered liable.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
some of us havn't forgotton the age old art of optimisation and
know exactly what is possible.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Having trouble doing that? Yes I though you would.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I would hope so because you seem to be severly misguided.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Umm, DUH!, you don't have a clue do you. ( A statement not a question btw. )
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I'll leave you to
figure out how I converted that one.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
Its like this, I myself wouldn't insult you and claim to be an expert in
whatever the finer points of your PHD are, so don't insult me and claim to be
an expert at games programming.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)
I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that a lot of the recent
posts in this group have been needlessly spiteful, offensive, or
downright rude.
Rik Griffin (mouse@cheesey.demon.co.uk)
[1] Footnotes [2]
[2] Even non-existant and recursive ones [3] [2]
"You either learn to laugh or you go insane"
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