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A hidden bonus on the Acorn User CD-ROM... email me if you discover this! editor@acorn-gaming.org.uk. This article was written during Summer 1997. If you're not an internet user then I should explain that this article contains many examples of some of the highly-informed discussion you're missing...


Listen to Me!

...a compendium of excerpts from postings in comp.sys.acorn.games...
All postings ©Copyright original authors, as indicated, reproduced without permission
This compilation ©Gareth Moore 1997

Being a history of all
When the world was created all was made free and merry, and the peoples of all lands rejoiced in the peace of their days, knowing that the precious Orb of Tenesu held all in perfect balance and unity. Pilgrims journeyed for many moons in search of the embracing touch of the Orb, and no living being who beheld her voluptuous beauty could resist the call to merge with the swelling multitudes who sang in the cloisters of her mind and danced in the streets of her virtue.

But such realms of prosperity are ever but a brief blink in the eye of the world, and it came to pass that too many who desired great power had not the strength of mind and character to wield it in the fair image of their forebearers.

And so as the youth of the world turned grey of root and hair so it came to be that the diaphanous web of beauty that enshrined the precious Orb grew - not to joyous maturity but instead in the bitter memory of the accursed violations of profligate strangers who raped her very soul for their own mercenary advances. Her diluted being, robbed of potency, spilt into the dregs of the world and all fell into decay and disrepute.

Here, in the annals of the Orb, lies a chronical of pilgrims to her side:


Alternate Reality

Italian Plumbers

I assume that most people have seen the Mario64 game. I would like to create a game like this but have two slight problems:
1) Would it possible on a StrongARM?
2) Would it be an advantage to stick it on a CD?
3) I can't programme either :(
Seriously, if I find it's possible I might consider getting a small group together to program it..
Richard S. (Richard.S.@digibank.demon.co.uk)

[---]

1) Would it possible on a StrongARM?

Don't see why not.

2) Would it be an advantage to stick it on a CD?

You could probably slap in loads of neat PD sound effects and ones you made yourself if you put it on CD, but I'd make a floppy version as well (I do not have a CD-ROM drive :-( )

3) I can't programme either :(

I'll help! Unfortunately, I can't program either, unless you count BBC BASIC as a decent games programming language.

I wouldn't have thought it would be that hard, particulary if you tried to make one more like super mario 1 on the gameboy (should just need to make a background with a little bloke running round with lots of bad guys.) Go for it!
Greg (martins.fam@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Great idea to do a Mario type game. Plenty of funny characters and decent high res graphics...that's what we want (oh and exceptional gameplay) For my sake make it SA compatible and it would be better to put in on CD 'cause CD holds more info (as U know)
If you like, I have a book entitled Learning C. If you want it let me know.
Ian Vincent (ian.vincent@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Strong coffee, please

I think you can get 2 kinds of Java thingies - stand alone thingies and applets. SO - are all the PC games developers going to be programming in Java and are we going to be able to run the games they produce?
Greg (martins.fam@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Hello?

[Talking about Destiny:] I find it difficult to keep up with all the postings about Drifter, there are so many being posted at the moment. I can't wait till wer're all playing then it will be constant questions on who to get past level 3 etc...
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

I'm not a ZFC member so my hearings fine so pleas don't SHOUT. ;-)

Tom,

--
backwater@argonet.co.uk - Arm club member - Convergence member - ZFC
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Hi, I'm Rob and I'm just baCK FROM QUINTIN'S EIGHTEENTH. IT WAS A BLOODY
BRILLIANT PART (SANS SOUND TO START WITH BUT THAT WAS SOON FINISHED) ans
three peopwle were skick in the toilet and one overmy hea       d. :_
Yeah, it was cool.
Oh, the \ranynor were there and so was dane Couckoo (but not for long, he
left wuickly, strange that). 

if antwbody awants any spagre pringleds legtft over thwme we wil gladuly
spupply them tiwht them as peole were kind og morc intesrslefd3ed iomtje tje
fppd morte 3yhatm thrn drink.

bt the wiy wr are not theVicarage in disguids

And for the sheeprace fand, be warned, we now plan to code a substanceaial
part of  the game -clde!

so nyah :p

well i hdib;t jbwo jfhwhat wlezse go write and it's qclear i'm talking a
whoel lot of blovkklocks hherre so i don't know thay u'm going to do but :)

Did you bother rreading that before wyou sent it?

B elugh!
  oh no i nust bget my computer cleanrt
I agree, but I dion't know what the fuck you're saying.
]-one nof us    IS MNURE MPIOSEED THSAN THE OTGER :)
WGASA


Don't go na,d
Q       uintin & Roberto *:^)

Quintin Lawrence Stephen Parker (no email address given)

[---]


Sharpen your Claws

The High Church of Tom

Genden site is now available, I know they are hafeing presentation problems with their games but their page is well even worst. Why? It will just create a awfull image. Have a look with a paper bag ready at your side ;-)
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Please get your own postings and webpages up to sratch before starting to critize other people's contributions to the Net.

I thought my web page was up to scratch. As fo crtisisam it was constructive. The text you can read and it is well written. It ceratinly is better than no site at all like many. In fact I know Geoff well, and never crticise him a lot. Even if he deserved it ;-)
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

I know some people have obvisouly got confused that I was being rude about Genden but I can certify I was not being rude etc...

I have personally stuck up for Geneden in past on this site about their games and recived much crtisisam, so yes I do support Genden. I am always in regular contact with Geoff and did actually give him a bit advice of about the web site, and can reccomend his games highly. (I spend about two hours a month on phone chatting to him, I know him better than most people here probably do).

He is also in a group, called Nemesis which I am also a member so I would have no reason to malciously crticise about Genden. Nemesis is a relatively new company/group and hopefully soon you we will have web site up and running, but until then if you'd like our catalogue please email nemesis@cyberjunky.com.

Finially can I please ask people to stop moaning at me, I thought people would relise that I was the one that has always been in defence of their games on this news group and wouldn't make such a fuss over the posting obvisouly I was wrong. (This posting is no way aimend to upset any one who posted anything about my posting)

Finally may I add that stuningly brillant lokking Backwtaer site is being produced, which will have a massive links page for Games. (Over 200) It will aalso work on PC browsers perfectly, so watch out for it in a week or two.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

It trully dose look good now! I've just sorted out the the problem Fresco was haveing with the contents page displaying it as Pink! Now though its the correct white.

You wont get a new free PD game each week at any other site, or a constantly growing list of Games links like ours or, 287mhz SA instructions etc...
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Believe it or not. I have had many complimemts about the presentation of pages. I do much pulshing work and the reason people pay me to do the publshing for their book/magazine/poster, is becuase they heard my prestentaion/desighn is very good. In postings I acknolwedge sometimes I have the ood typo but my postings are still clear and of benefit to newsgroups. I am happy to supply testaments and example of my work by post if you are intrested to pay me for some desighn work.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

...and when we launch the new site we will be every Acorn Gamers bookmark!
Err will it really:/
Yes, I can't deny being popular before!
I'm not Jokeing either, though I must admit the site was only decent using Arc Web.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Yeah right. DO Games Scene is the best place, and I don't need to go advertising it 20 times a day. Word of mouth is the best form of advetisement.
Al McRonald (mcron@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

[Digital Oasis Games Scene]
I've just been there nothing is see is very exclusive. The site is very small compared to what we'll be offering. Competions aren't bad but we'll have them too. Its not updatde weekly like we will.
Tom, (Smugly)
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

No I wouLd AU is very good. tHE DISCS IN THE OAST FEW MONTHS HAVE FEATURED MANY FAB GAMES.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Did you even look at that before you posted it??
Robert Titman (robert.t@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

TBA say a lot but never seem to produce a lot.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Wrong!
Its nearly complete for the Acorn, why not go to the Acorn Command and Conquer web site for more info.
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Sorry, this is WRONG. There is **NO** plan at all to being C&C onto the Acorn platform.
Stuart Marshall (d.s.mars@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Hi! I'm new to the newsgroup

I have it, the entire Quake source code on my web page at www.argonet.co.uk/users/jgrant it is in the file download section. I demand that some one with a C compiler compiles it and puts it on the net.
Area51 (jgrant@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Kieran Brown: Sigh..... Anyone want to tell this guy why this won't work?

Well actually seing as I wrote this, I thought I might as well reply arogant little persons remarks. It does compile on my Amiga 1200 so I am sure that anyone with half a brain, (unlike Kieran L. Brown) could compile it. I have done the hard part and put it on the net and then some spotty teenager who thinks he is a programmer,(ha ha ha te he he) seems to think that IT WILL NOT WORK. What do you take me for I would not waist my valuable web space with rubish. ID soft do not care becasue you have to buy the PC version to get the data files so what is the problem ?

I suggest that you Kieran leave this newsgroup and do not come back.
Area51 (jgrant@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Waning Moon?

Worms *or* TANKS! :-)
Anybody who has played both of these would barf at the idea of using them both in the same sentence, unless it were a variant on

"TANKS is like Worms with 99% of the concept, graphics, sound and gameplay removed, and bucketloads of shite put in instead."

I was _appalled_ by TANKS. I would've been appalled by it if it had appeared on an Archimedes World disc from 5 years ago, but to have this hailed as cutting-edge games technology on the Risc PC in 1996 made me ill to the pit of my stomach. Acorn users are indeed desperate for games if they're willing to fork out thirty quid for such a travesty.

And Shuggy's just as bad.
Paddy Spencer (paddy.spencer@parallax.co.uk)

[---]

And Shuggy's just as bad.
I disagree. Shuggy seems to be even worse (oops, sorry).
Thomas Boroske (y0001006@ws.rz.tu-bs.de)

[---]

Worms is cheaper than Tanks and the entire Dizzy collection is on sale for a tenner. I think any outrage you're getting over your two games is that you treat them as value-for-money commercial products when they are in fact desperate attempts to capitalise on a starved Acorn games market, games which wouldn't be seen dead as shareware on any other platform. You are deluding yourself if you think there's no comparison between the Acorn games market and any other.
Matthew Bloch (mattbee@eh.org)

[---]

"TANKS is like Worms with 99% of the concept, graphics, sound and gameplay removed, and bucketloads of shite put in instead."
But using decimals that would be 99.9%

Acorn users are indeed desperate for games if they're willing to fork out thirty quid for such a travesty.
There are dome dumb people about.

And Shuggy's just as bad.
Have to disagree with this. Shuggy is faaaarrr worse.
Anarchy (n.a.atkinson@durham.ac.uk)

[---]

my kids [..] LOVE Shuggy!
I think they can get help on the NHS. See your GP.
Anarchy (n.a.atkinson@durham.ac.uk)

[---]

I think people are being too hard on Shuggy as well. I'm not just defending it because my review of it in Acorn User wasn't so negative, I really did quite like it.
Tony Houghton (tonyh@tcp.co.uk)

[---]

Episode 4: The TAG Clone Wars

AKA: Ooh! You Slapped Me!

As for Iron Dignity, you will have to wait a while I think before anything using the engine is released.

If TBA was managing Iron Dignity then we would worry about speeding up the engine (or replacing it with something else that can do the job ) and getting a decent 2D graphic artist, 3D artist, animator and musician onto the job.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Show how much you know then doesn't it. If Iron Dignity was to run on TAG then the framerate would improve by at least twice as much as it is now.

Also BHP is chucking around a hell of a lot more polygons than Iron Dignity is, although it is not in true colour, it will be in high res. To be honest I wouldn't play a game that is at the obviously low framerate that Iron Dignity is.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I really wondered if you were serious showing BHP in Mode 13. Come on, that's a relic of past Archimedes times.
Franke Foehl (foehlfk@tick.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de)

[---]

Iron Dignity is just a demo but it seems to be a lot more impressive to me.
Unfortunatly if you are fished in by pretty but very slow visuals then that is your problem.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Nothing would upset me more than to see your work go unfinished without reward, or worse still, end up the same way that Drifter did. ( ie a good concept, but one that was released before its time. )
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

The Rally demo and the Dinosaur managed to slow down a StrongARM even in Mode 13, which is quite an achievement indeed.
Franke Foehl (foehlfk@tick.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de)

[---]

[Iron Dignity]
The texture mapping wobbles around the place, and the animation is a simple jointed leg. Hardly ground breaking stuff. The light sourcing seems to be simple algorithms and nothing special.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

[Iron Dignity and Frank Foehl]
The Dinosaur is 2734 polygons that are being realtime lit and also realtime mesh morphed between several keyframes. Plug that into your engine and see it crawl along. In fact I'd be happy to port it into your engine to show you exactly where you are going wrong.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Martin, I don't know you. But I have to say I start to hate your attitude and the nonsense you keep writing. Please complete BHP and stop talking about how good your TAG engine is. We've all heard it a few times already.
Thomas Boroske (y0001006@ws.rz.tu-bs.de)

[---]

Strange I'm getting emails saying exactly the oppostire that the ID demo looked sparse and the models look bad. Some of then I agree with cos the walker does look "boxey" and bland.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I should also like to know Martin how you can have the gaul to sit there and after using this news group solely for your own publicity then attempt to rip to pieces people like Andrew Docking or Frank Fohl when they dare show there heads on this group?
Ben Ollivere (benjamin.ollivere@sjc.ox.ac.uk)

[---]

Really? This is must laugh at. Lats time I saw DaVinci, its was chugging around trying very hard to render scenes that look fairly simple.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Someone can quite easily compare full game specs with some bodged and contrived special case rendering figures.

However it is the person that tries to compare these, as you have done Ben, that shows themselves to be rather stupid and lacking. Or perhaps you have another motive?
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Again Piper's ego takes hold and he laughs at things he knows nothing about.
Ben Ollivere (benjamin.ollivere@sjc.ox.ac.uk)

[---]

However if the models were re-modeled to be 'cheese wedges' and the track was simplified then it would run on an ARM2 but the downside is that it would look like Drifter. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear, is that meant to be a cutting remark? I pitty you. Learn to follow threads a bit better first. Do not blame your news server because I know that your server is in perfect working order as I have received replys from "durham.ac.uk" about posts I sent yesterday.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

BTW QTM is the slowest music player I have dome across, wastes processor time, doesn't play tracks accuratly and worst of all the memory handling corrupts memory causing loss of data.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Or you could try adding some proper arguments to this thread instead of jumping on a couple of posts and spouting a load of rubbish that wastes space.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

A small group of people then stir things up by reuqesting things like poly counts again(!), spouting rubbish, making innaccurate claims, making wrong assumptions etc.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

[A 'deliberately argumentative' example]
The programmers I know really hate QTM and wouldn't use it if it the last music player around. In my opinion I'd be embarressed to even release QTM as "I don't care ware".
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I have tried to help you produce better algorithms and coding practices by the only way you reply is by saying "it'll be OK" and by adding hege to the end of your sentances in a way which is very flippant. If you want to carry on like this then that is fine by me, I don't honestly care, I am past caring. You carry on as you have been and watch the bugs come rolling in matey and I shall laugh. hehe.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I will also be willing to cut MY fee to you for this help. ( By the way I will not fullfill any of the above points until my fee clears into my bank account. My fee is payable upfront for a minimum period of one month at a time. I charge normal contract programmer rates. These are my conditions and they are non-negotiable. )

Now you cannot say fairer than that can you. I now await your reply with even more baited breath than before.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

However, for me anyway, that doesn't mean write commodore 64 spec games that only just run on a strongarm.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

Simon Jones: The Acorn games market has been working hard to pull itself together and now, just as it seems as if it might just do it, these arguments look set to drive another rift straight down the middle!
I don't think I'd describe it as down the middle -it seems to be very much down to one person in the market.
[..]
The problem on the news groups is caused by one person (you all know who I mean) who has recently spent all his time broadcasting unsubstantiated claims for his own products and rubbishing everybody else, often either without seeing their code, or based on very early demo version.
[..]
If anybody *hasn't* worked out who I'm talking about, then they might want to reflect that the man in question has a notorious problem with release dates, and has been heavily involved in both the BHP/Destiny and BHP/Iron Dignity arguments...
Christopher Joseph (trin0106@sable.ox.ac.uk)

[---]

Broadcasting unsubstantiated claims? OK then I would like you to name one and if possible without revealing too many company secrets I will post the reply right back here again.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

That wasn't an attempt at being sarcastic or rude, it was a genuine call. If you saw someone trying, in your opinion, to stir up a thread I expect you would say something similar? We all would like to hear your thoughts on how Destiny could be re-stuctured to provide a better gameplay experience.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I think people are generating a paranoid attitude about you. Is it still paranoia when everyone really is out to get you?
Tim B (timothy@armage.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Episode 5: The Frame Rate Strikes Back

Mind you Rob doing all the game object updates on a stable interupt is the easiest way of doing things. For example Cobalt Seed on the ARM 2 is calculating the movement of all bullets, enemies and the player 50 times per second. Even with lengthly collision detection in the time taken is not much at all.

I would even go as far as to say that the extra code needed to "step" movements an arbitrary amount based on the previous frames time ( or whatever ) takes even longer to calculate than doing it a simple incremental approach.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

No oh no oh no. Why do people think limiters ( aka frame rate clamping ) need to be used on games? No games programmer who has a brain ties the game update to the frame update speed.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

[Talking about Drifter]
As an example I draw your attention to some posts saying "I will have to return XXXXX product because it runs unplaybly quickly of my SA due to the game code not syncing properly". This product, which shall remain nameless, also uses the same method of gameplay syncing as you are using in Destiny. Which, as many games programmers that know their stuff, is very very bad indeed.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Perhaps you haven't really tried something that would be suitable to model how monsters could behave?
Umm yes infact I have. The first example is a game on the C64 that coped with 200-400 monsters ( OK they were robots but its the same thing ) that tracked you through a multilevel maze. ( It was a big space ship type of thing ) They all had varying degrees of intelligence. ie. Some would follow you. They would use their internal maps of the ship and when you destroyed walls they would notice the fact and update their route finding algorithms approatiatly. They would become scared of you if you had a big gun. They would learn where the player prefered to wait in ambush for the monsters and avoid those places. They would commicate with each other and setup ambushes for the player as well. As well as leading players towards these ambushes. Above all they learnt how to interact with the players style of play and adjusted their tactics accordingly. I think this demonstrates my ability to optimise for slow processors and also low memory situations.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Now then since i've given you about 0.003% of destiny you should trivially be able to figure out exactly how everything works, including the scene data structure, now get to it, i'll check the newsgroups in a few days time and i expect a full listing! WITH COMMENTS! heheheh!
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

[Destiny]
I know for a fact that even an ARM2 based machine can cope with the amount of game object you want to update, without any loss of complexity. Why do I know this? Well its easy, if a 1MHz 6502 can do it then so can an ARM2. All you have to do is think slightly differently. HINT: Games players don't notice when the things you can do are a big huge horrible bodge. This way you can drastically reduce huge amounts of processing time. Just think tangentially and I expect you'll see the solution.

How on Earth do you think we coded games in the past on small little home machines while still needing huge levels with masses of sprites/aliens etc? Thats right we used to optimise our code and alogrithms to squeeze the very last drop out of 60K of usable memory and 1MHz ( ooooh count it! ) of processor power. Ask me someday how I managed to get 300 different robots wandering intelligently about a huge ( 10x10 screens ) level all in 64K, I'd love to waffel on all day about that one I can tell you!
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I know, you are correct. How could i possibly disagree with someone who claims a 6502 could do everything destiny requires.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

[In support of Martin Piper not Rob Templeman:] He's showing a damn sight more sign of knowing how to write a 3D walkabout game than you. Anyone who's programmed any game (even if it's only Bombz and a few magazine games for the Electron) can see he's talking sense.
Tony Houghton (tonyh@tcp.co.uk)

[---]

One developer recently offered advice to a less experienced one when it became obvious a long hoped for game was being developed wrongly only to get slapped down all over again, while nobody batted an eyelid at the second developer's long stream of childish and spiteful responses.
Tony Houghton (tonyh@tcp.co.uk)

[---]

Pessimist ... sometimes. Low opinion of the readers? Who am I to say? But as for the contributors :) Well, howe shal Iput htis ... You've obviously deliberately misunderstood my previous posting, and therefore should be killfiled by everyone in the world, because you're a complete idiot and I am obviously right. Have you ever written a 14 dimensional virtual reality shootemup time travel car racing game which runs on everything from a ZX80 to a Cray T3E at the same frame rate? I thought not. Hehe! Our software, despite having never been updated, or indeed written, is better than yours. Why? Because I say so. Any evidence to back that up? It runs faster on an A305 than yours does on a StrongARM RiscPC with fully populated Hydra. That's not a fair comparison, and you never update or bugfix yours. Rubbish. Alright, not in the last year. Aroncs' New Brosweer wil supeort everyething in the wordl. How do I overclock my 566MHz AMD K8 and make it still work with my 16Mb Matrox Megalomanium Graphics card and 64x CDROM drive and intel PSX mortarboard and a Red Box? <chorus> "We don't know".
William Gallafent (gallafnt@plato.wadham.ox.ac.uk)

[---]

No I havn't forgotton how slow the ARM2 is, remember I was writing ARL using a 3010 and 4megs of memory ( woo! ). I could easily have 100's of entities flying around with their updates running in the way I have described many times before as well as plotting the 3D world and everything else. They would aim at you when they saw you, they would move towards you intelligently, they would also avoid bits of landscape and all their bullets would collision detect with anything I told them to do. In effect exactly the same sort of 3D movement you are describing for Destiny, and I assure you just as complex. The difference is that I coded in 100% hand optimised ARM, what were you using? Umm compiled BASIC I think you said plus bits of ARM, oh dear.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Martin Piper: If you had bothered to even read TBA's web pages ( btw I run TBA along with my partners incase you don't know ) and bothered to go along to the #acornquake meet ( which btw was great fun and must be done again ) then you would have avoided even posting. ;-)
Do you mind if I point out that fact that your WWW site contains absolutely noting about Quake?
Stephen Crocker (crok@crok.demon.co.uk)

[---]

That would be TBA's web pages that contain horribly old and out of date statistics, don't even mention Quake, Destiny or TAG 3 and haven't been seriously updated in quite some time, would it? :-)
Big Mad Drongo (iapetus@swallows.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Dear whoever you are,
May I point out that you are talking a load of complete rubbish that has no foundation in the truth what so ever and is totally inaccurate. I will now point you to the replies from your post that will doubtless follow showing you how wrong you are.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

No i haven't ignored anyones concerns, i have addressed the valid ones. The ONLY concern is that a few things weren't frame independant, they are now. What i did do is reject your idea of a fixed speed update loop, because after an initial tactful rejection you kept persisting in pushing an innapropriate technique, and rubbishing my work, but then your alterior motives are rather obvious.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

Besides the problem isn't with the monsters AI, thats very quick, the work load arises from allowing monsters to roam freely without letting them walk through walls, walk up steps too high and commit suicide down large drops etc.. These problems do not manifest themselves in any 2D game. I would have thought that anyone who claims to be a games programmer would immediately realise this.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

Mathematical Proof

Another method is to measure how much time you have taken in the render phase and multiply all your movements up by this value, this is the wrong way to do it. It has been proven it generates more bugs and can increase then calculation time above what would have been the combined time of several runs through simpler code as described above.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Now Quake, as far as I can make out, assumes no upper limit to its framerate but imposes a lower limit to the slowest frame rate.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

By the way I already have a version of Destiny and from what I have seen it is the most horrible mish-mash of basic and ASM I have had the misfortune to see for a long while. Also most of your algorithms have certain mathamatically proveable holes in them that still exhibit the same "features" as those mentioned in an old version of the comp.sys.graphics.algorithms FAQ.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

1) Mathimatically prove where you are going wrong with your algorithms,
2) Fix your algorithms to work in a coherant ( ie constant time delta ) way suitable for correct frame inpendant code,
3) Give you some object-orientated code modules for your game object entities database managment,
4) Also including a API that will enable you to automatically support the RISC PC 2 hardware specifaction with multiple CPUs and graphics processor ( very usefull for bi-linear filtering and mip-mapping acceleration ).
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

As to their rubbish content, everything I have posted is technically correct and hasn't been shown to be flawed.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Proven, oh no you havn't. You havn't shown anything before, where as I have given you countless examples of why it WILL work.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Thats not true, eg. you claim an ARM2 could do the updates in destiny at 50hz, i trivially disproved that.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

Lets just say a few points here. Robert in this post of which I have snipped a great deal you have been deliberatly rude and argumentative. In fact the entire volume of your post contained nothing of interest and nothing new. Instead it contained a lot of phrases which do not add up to anything at all, except to try and insult myself and my knowledge in this particular field.

Also I suspect you feel you are really loosing it if you have to post such long discourses of nothing just so you can hide behind waffle and not confront the facts.

However it will not work and I will not rise to your stupid ramblings any longer until you have something sensible to say. You may remember at the start of this thread I made a ( pretty much ) mathimatical proof why the method you are using is prone to numerical innaccuracies and adverse effects. I have also shown how it is possible for your minimum specification to operate at about the same processor usage using this method. Other people have publicly posted that what I have said is true.

Now unless you can matimatically prove I'm wrong then shut up and listen! Posting a few lines of code is not a proof by the way, For Gods sake man I have YOUR best interests at heart here!

As to your last statement in which you ask for an "OPEN CHALLENGE" as you put it, what you ask for has already been proved.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Modesty

Again FYI the Dino and first Rally demos were the first demos of what the SA is capable of. And for that they served their purpose very well, ie people loved them.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I have spent my time and more learning computers and video games and have become very very good at it too.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I would quote my CV of experience but that'll take a few pages of tightly packed text which I will not subject this newsgroup to. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I Hereby Promise...

Beleive me BHP looks much nicer when we put in the new graphics and the higher resolutions.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Frank Foehl: I'd like to point out that the Iron Dignity preview uses by default not only twice the resolution of BHP, but also three times the colour depth, meaning a six times better image quality (and eight times the VRAM that needs to be filled each frame)

To be honest your engine, at the moment, is way too slow to be used inside a game. ... While your demo maintains a framerate of about 8-10 fps the same scene rendered in TAG in hires in truecolour would be running at 15-20fps. The same scene rendered in TAG base mode ( mode 13, low colour ) would be running at a constant rate of 50 frames per second or greater.

... From this you can surmise that BHP uses approximatly 2-3 times as many polygons per screen than your demo does. To be honest TAG was handling demos like yours running on an ARM3. OK, not running in true colour but you know what I mean.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Sadly, you won't be able to prove what you write, so it's up to the reader to believe you or not. As for myself, I don't.
Franke Foehl (foehlfk@tick.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de)

[---]

You may think that 10-12 fps is OK, however we do not. 10-12 fps is considered far to slow and jerky to be usable.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

12 fps is not playable. 12 fps is barely playable. 10 fps is acceptable in the horrible world of PC games. 12 is not acceptable for games companys that prefer to add gameplay.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

[Iron Dignity]
But not as many polygons as there are in BHP. The light sourcing is not better, it is just that we do not use the fullest lighting calculations because they are slower.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

In BHP I can tell you there are several thousand polygons plotted per frame. With a world database of many many thousands of polygons for each race track. As you say, a low resolution doesn't really fit the number of polygons BHP is chucking around. Therefore we have upped the resolution to something that still maintains a playable framerate and also offers much improved visuals.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

The point is that we are still going to support lower end machines. Not everyone has SA's. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Thomas Boroske: please give us the number of polygons that BHP uses (min/max/avg) and the numbers you've hacked out of Iron Dignity. That way we can compare.

That would be a trade secret. ;-) You would have to take me at my word. However I can say that the cars themselves take up 900 polys, and in a current scene I grabbed while driving around there where around 2000 polys in total being drawn. Not including those being hidden removed.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

OK after trawling through the many ( read hundreds ) of posts and emails about BHP I've come up with the following list that people want to see changed or improved or added. Tell me if you spot anything I have missed!

Key:
* Going into the final game. ( Fingers crossed! )
! Would be nice, but as an upgrade when the target specs are finalised.
? Err probably not going in.

* Higher resolution. 480x352 or maybe 640x480
* Better car models.
* More track detail.
* Very intellegent car AI. including...
* AI cars getting bored and trying to ram you off the road.
* AI cars that are not bodged and stuck to the road.
* AI cars that peform exactly the same as a human player would.
* Car power slides.
* Realistic crashes, explosions, flames.
* Cones,
* birds,
? people (!!!)
on the track that you hit.
* Cars jumping off the surface of the track.
* Shadows.
* Qualify modes, head to head modes, a death match mode.
* Lots of extra car types.
! Lots of tracks. ( ie more than three )
* Difficulty levels.
* Internet and local network multiplayer options.
! Steering wheel, accelerator and brake pedals to plug into the Arc.
! Higher colour depth rendering and smoothing shading for those that want to look at pretty things.
! Support for RISC PC2 multiple processors.
! Support for RISC PC2 PCI graphical accelerators.
* A demo on the web pages.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Power slides are very important and is one of the things playtest has come up with.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Ben Ollivere: If you are going to argue something at least be consistent, either you can or can't judge from demos, either way Iron Dignity is impressive - what do you think the fps on Rally are? Switch the view to 9 and the display to VGA, and it probably gets about 9fps as you drive under the bridge - not very impressive when you compare like with like, ie with Iron Dignities demo.

Apart from you know very well the frame rate doesn't drop when you do that. So why do you bother posting such lies?
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Mind you this situation will change soon because when BHP is finished and I have some spare time a demo will be produced with all the ( quick! ) effects in 16/24 bit I can think of. Namely textured, shaded, translucent galleons probably. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Duh look at the web pages again...
Also coloured lighting and transparancy are as easy to add as pressing a button.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I am going to release a demo after BHP is finished that will show all the features TAG is capable of. These include:
8/16/24 bit variable resolution rendering.
RGB multiple lights with smooth shading and perspective correct texturing.
Bi-linear and tri-linear mip mapping.
Translucent alpha values per texcell and interpolated.
etc etc.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

[Destiny and frame rate independence]
A simple question and if you now refuse to answer it then you must be doing something wrong. I'll even help you, I can say without hesitation that any TAG ( and other engines ) games published by us HAS to conform to such standards, thus gaurenteeing that the game will feel exactly the same to play no matter what spec machine you run it on.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Destiny will happily use every last scrap of processing ability & memory that any acorn machine can offer.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

More like exclusives! Such as the release to the Net of Rail 28. Also release to the net long lost games like the brillant battle game Risk which no one knew exsisted. Then brirnging a Rail 28 track editor on to net. + many more unique releases of free games.
...
Well we csn't offer the cahnce of winning a game every issue but always a free one! I do have some competions lined up from Pro Action, and 4D.
...
When the site comes out of hibernation you'll find a game news section. Eg the inof about a Destiny Demo being sent off for a CD five weeks ago! (We had the info five weeks ago)
Not that good really, must try and make it better!
Well thats wwhat we're doing and we will be better than all that! :-)
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

[Quake]
Sale? No I plan to make it freely available
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I am not spreading rumours about Acorn Quake, they are the facts so you are wrong yet again it seems.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

You cannot be serious!?

Neither are perfectly legal. Like Eddies Doom, Quake was ripped from my machine by a very clever virus targetting my internet software.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Yes really, though now its all gone from my systems thank God! ;-) Its one to watch out for though...
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

In the mean time I am sure you will understand why everyone here is so disbelieving then...
I understand that people that when people have asked me for demos and I have had to say no then some start slagging off things they havn't seen yet. Yes, its called envy. Or something similar. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Is this reticence on you part [to allow people to use the new TAG] because (as someone suggested) because you don't want people to see that the engine can't do everything you claim, or is there another reason?

Nope the reason is that we get snowed under by people requesting licenses. Which is good. Sometimes emails do get lost by my horribly shambly email setup though, and sometimes people are at Uni and so want the paper work sent through to their parents place and it gets lost there. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Christopher Joseph: Can I ask what framerate your version of Quake runs at, then?
20 fps on the entrance room, the slowest part. Greater than that on most other parts of the game.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

BTW someone is killing articles from this and other threads on c.s.a.games, whoever it is you will be tracked down and your internet access cut off. This is not helpfull at all to the rest of the people that frequent c.s.a.games.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Mind you one way to stop desktop hacker from hacking a game is to make your game refuse to start up unless it can kill any existing modules called 'hacker' and then start up your own module ( that does nothing ) called 'hacker'. Tee hee, this is exactly what Axis did btw and had the Desktop Hacker guys totally confused.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Also may I point out that when I chose to end the Iron Dignity thread by stating on news an entire summary of what had happend in the thread plus conslusion and a note asking for corrections to be made ( after which I would post ant corrections to the same thread a week later ) I received a grand total of no ammendments. From this I gatered that everyone was in agreement since there were no followups relating to the conclusion of that thread.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I notice, in addition to the arbitrary roll of the observer's location, FQuake doesn't have any bad guys/dogs/ogres/spectres/bosses, 'furniture' (like health boxes, armour, weaponry, ammo boxes etc.) flying bullets/rockets/grenades/nails, explosions, moving water surfaces, discoloured ripply underwater views, collision detection or enemy 'intelligence' to worry about at the moment. Oh, and it still crashes when you get very near the water surface, and gives up displaying the surface for points within a certain distance of the observer.

Mind you though John they are only trivial points that would take a max of a couple of days to sort out. Go easy on the guy, its not at all easy working with ID's graphic formats, believe me I know. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Area51: Hi
I don't mean to any anyone but when I phoned up TBA today the person I spoke to said that he did not think there was much chance of RiscQuake comming out in the next 12 months. So either I phoned the wrong company, The bloke I spoke to was lying or Martin was lying (which I hope he isn't because Quake is an exellent game.

The bloke you spoke to wasn't briefed properly on fortcoming market stratagies
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

You have got to ask yourself which engine has spent the longest in the Acorn world? Which engine has ateam of programmers behind it, improving it nearly every day? Which engine is compatible with ARM2 to SA? Which engine has been used by the greatest number of developers so far? Which engine shows its self over several products to be quicker than the rest?

I think you'll find that every answer is TAG.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Oh OK then, remember that ( ahem ) "StarFox" demo I prodcued at the TBA stand many many many years ago? That one used the same method too, it worked just fine on an ARM2 machine and it only took 2 weeks of work to code it up and draw the graphics and find music and samples.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

4) Mythical engine? No far from it in fact, I could show you development screen shots of the latest game using TAG3 but I can't because I would be breaking a contract.

5) That Quake escaped by electronic espionage rather than being released.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Chris Rutter:
* the shot is being viewed in Paint (note lower-case `q')
* the TAG directories are standard ones for the TAG kit
* the `3dfx' directory is one he created
* he wasn't playing it in a window

Really, so tell me how I was able to play Quake and maintain an IRC chat then and also give someone a preview of some rather pretty 3DFX screen shots of a project I'm working on? ;-)

OK OK so running in the desktop is the slowest thing to do but hey its sorta fun. Makes my Arc look like an SGI running GLQuake.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I beleive you do not have the computer neccassary to run the software, of my latest project. This as you will see is basically Quake2 with added bits. That should keep you quiet and at least prove I know what I'm talking about when I say "you are doing it wrong!"
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Also with Quake the PSX's graphics architecture doesn't help that much at all.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

And don't forget to clear your mailbox for that large email I'm gonna send you. And yes it uses TAG3 with a 3DFX, and no I don't consider that cheating. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

How to be Profound in One Easy Step

A usefull phrase I know is that, "Pretty graphics do not a game make, however pretty graphics and gameplay, do."

One to bear in mind Frank.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

How do you calculate that?
You forget, first and formost I'm a "hacker" therefore I know about these things. And how to extract these figures.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

You seem to forget that I am a hacker, a hackers job is to find out these sort of facts and figures from any software he can get his hands on.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Oh come on, being a medic, you should know the human eye and brain can easily tell the difference between a fast frame update and a slow frame update.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I prefer the big sperical translucent type ones with many layers whoosing out from the center.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

How many objects are being real time morphed in BHP?
That would be telling... ;-) Though I will say more than zero.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Time is but a fleeting thing that seems to get lost somewhere between waking hours. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

If you have a question here is the answer to everything, 42
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

I do notice that even though weeks ago you told me to "accept opinions" you yourself have replied to the post I made. Humm interesting.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Don't think i've not thought it out or dont understand what youve been trying to say (dont mis-read the double negative hehe!), my phd is based upon computer modelling of Galactic molecular clouds which entails very detailed variable step-size time integrators.
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

In fact at the moment I am studying part time on the theories of baryonic dark matter and their appliance of motion to our Galaxy. Perhaps our studies could be mutually helpfull. Though I myself don't have a PHD as I no longer have time and I would miss the regular money coming in. ;-)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

By the way somebody who has a wider field of interest in the computing market and at least knows what I am talking about is a mark of a true programmer, much like most of the sensible people that inhabit this news group. ( Rob T is the exception to this rule however. )
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Now you are resorting to be rude when you are loosing a battle, which has the effect of invalidating your previous statements.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

So I could say "nerrrrr" to your silly rantings and vain attempts to did yourself ou t of a hole but I won't.

Instead I will say "take this as a learning experience for you have many things to learn".
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I will take this oppertunity that you have obviously dived into this discussion without reading any relating material and as such I suggest you retract your entire post right now and in public. To do otherwise would prove you are infact a time waster who should go onto everyones kill list. However to appologise in public when you make hugely wrong assumptions is a mark of courage and will be respected.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Now you know I havn't the time to write a Destiny clone, after all I'm hard at work on Quake, BHP et al.
But as you can see from my two examples I know pretty much what will work and what won't work since, my dear friend, I have tried or seen tried most methods ( not the most, I can't say all 'cos thats never true ) of doing things over many many years. You see Rob, while you've spent your time trying to get a "Dr." before your name I have spent my time and more learning computers and video games and have become very very good at it too.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Psychic Beings

Also I have not based my opinions without seeing code or old code, in my line of work I see lots of things. I regularly receive emails, discs etc with lots of interesting snippets on. I part of what happens when you own a software company, most of the time I stay quiet about them.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

How do you know what I have written, if you go to the Tokyo Toy Show this year then keep a watch out for a new exciting 3D walk around game for a PC and a 3DFX. I can't mention the name for contractual reasons ( but I'll try and put up a few piccys on the web ) but it is a total of about 6 weeks work from design to engine/editor to how it looks now. I'm proud of my work so don't you dare try to insult me again by blatently ignoring valid points put to you or I will loose my temper.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Also the proof of my other work is out there, quite a lot infact if you can be bothered to keep up with the rest of the games industry and not just the Acorn market.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Excuse me, unless you are doing something extremely intensive, like having a small learning neural network for each monster then I know precisly how you should be updating the monsters in Destiny. I am fully aware how long AI for monsters inside an arbitrary game takes to write and execute. I am also fully aware about how the routines should be used inside a game of this type and also how to optimise the alogrithms to make the best use of processor speed, spare game time and accuracy.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Ahh telepathy is a skill i've not yet developed.
So you can't read peoples minds? Interesting its part of my job description. How else am I meant to second guess managment staff when a demo of this or that is needed with five minutes warning. Maybe its a sixth sense that coders develop after a long time.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

My Favourite Word

adding hege to the end of your sentances in a way which is very flippant
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

However since you are new to this games programming lark, I assume you agree I have the most games programming experience here, if you wish to reconsider your flippant attitude I will be happy to help you.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

It was then surmised that the way the programmer had implemented the gameplay code was ( in my eyes and other peoples too ) a little naive. I have then posted several times offering a different way to solve this problem. By the way the solution to this is a simple one and is one that is easy to implement on all processors. It has also been a tried and tested method used by the wider ( ie not just Acorn ) games programming community for several years now, probably longer.
The programmer of Destiny has since responded in a very flippant way saying that its not worth trying to sort out this problem. After that I in frustration I responded in an equally flippant way. ( See I am honest. )
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

But perhaps they only take so long because Rob is using some rather inefficient algorithms... Although I've not seen any of the code for TAG, I'd have to say that Martin appears to know what he's talking about and Rob seems to dismiss all of his postings in a rather flippant way.
Richard Wilson (richard@wilsontigger.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I and a few others have tried and tried to steer you into a more correct way of writing things but all you have done is to blatently ignore the advice of this newgroup and respond with petty comments and a very flippant attitude.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I'm a Poet, and...

Drifter would be great if it wasnt for,
Many things that have been listed before.
Now a new version is promised,
With things that were missed.
But still TBA will say,
Ours is better Wa-Hey!
And the line limit for a limerik has passed.
Tim Boura (timothy@armage.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Argonet Ch Ch Ch

Argo Argo
There the best
Brilliant compared to the rest

Sorry about my rhyme but I thought it was the best way to advertise how good argonet is compared to the rest.
Area51 (jgrant@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

But still TBA will say,
Ours is better Wa-Hey!
Tim Boura (timothy@armage.demon.co.uk)

[---]

There was also a young man called Piper,
Whose engine was coded much nicer,
Or so he claimed
When he was blamed
For saying RobT's code was shi....
Adam Iley (a.iley@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

There once was a bloke called RobT,
Who coded a fab game - Destiny.
"The algorithms are full of bugs,
But the Acorn users are mugs,
They'll snap it up, you'll see."
Michael Marshall (micm@enterprise.net)

[---]

Destiny, now that game's cool,
The graphics will make us drool,
The effects will splendid,
When the monsters lives are be ended,
Though as far as Martin's concerned, I'm talking bull!
Michael Marshall (micm@enterprise.net)

[---]

Could it be that in our own way we are passing judgement upon these people and their games through the use of poetry. Maybe that we are too reserved to give a direct opinion and that we have to express ourselves in a more subtle way? Come on people, put your opinion where your poetry is, and say who you favour of the two sparring coders.
Robert Billington (robbill@super.net.uk)

[---]

Last Words

Ooooh cutting, see me weep.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Some have even come back with constructive critasism, which I do not mind getting, because in the end it will help make a better game.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Oh come on, now you are spouting rubbish
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I'm not slagging it off as such, just pointing out some weak spots which with time could be improved upon.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Can't you give hugely inflated egotistical responses without being abusive?
Ben Ollivere (benjamin.ollivere@sjc.ox.ac.uk)

[---]

What was wrong with the presentation?
The Vicarage (backwater@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

That weekend was quite long, don't you think?
Oh complain complain complain.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Try to gather all the facts before making comments.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

As far as you are concerned its a load of balls. As far as I'm concerned its a fact.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I respond with facts.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Non-textured 8bpp? Why for Gods sake?
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Hope this helps you enjoy the newsgroup more.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

It is also difficult to maintain a decent discussion when there are a couple of people deliberatly stirring things up with scathful posts.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Just my helpfull comments.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I'm not going to add anything more to this pointless flame war.
Ben Carter (ben@gunk.demon.co.uk)

[---]

That bit of your posting is probably the most innacurate statement and the biggest example of deliberate stirring, on the entire newsgroup.
P R Wheatley (csxprw@scs.leeds.ac.uk)

[---]

The comment I made is an example of how one or two people were deliberatly stirring before about TAG, don't forget.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Now if I was to stir a bit more I could continue the discussion along the lines of:
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I hope you now see my point that it only takes one person hell-bent on trying to stir something, for whatever reason, to conjour up an almighty ton of [censored].
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

What a totally childish thing to do.
Solomon Paul Sammy (sps@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

You are comparing chalk with nuclear waste.
Solomon Paul Sammy (sps@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

I fail to see why this is true. * FX: Puts on teacher hat *
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

[Destiny and Rob Templeman]
To help you, now I'm begining to let out some optimisation secrets but hat the hell.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Ooook, noooo.
ahhhhh, eeeeeewww, yesssssss, uuggghhh (oops that was the chicken vindaloo, getting excited here!)
Rob Templeman (mbcaprt@mphhpc.ph.man.ac.uk)

[---]

But do not try and post slurs against me, they will not work.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Thank you very much for the assassination of our product.
Dane Koekoek (dane@werewlf.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Martin, Your babbling rubbish again.
Jon Harrop (jon@isiselec.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Rob T is known to be *very* good at typing 'hehe'.
Richard Wilson (richard@wilsontigger.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Yet more drivel from the Vicar's Fridge I'm affraid... :-(
Stuart Marshall (d.s.mars@argonet.co.uk)

[---]

Oooooh if only you knew, if only you knew. Stop digging now.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

</sarcasm>
Fascinating, fascinating indeed. I'm impressed, no I really am, honest.
<sarcasm)
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Um you are wrong, totally wrong and could be more wrong if you went the the University of wrongness and took a master degree in being wrong. ie. You are wrong. If I were you I'd be carefull talk like that could be considered liable.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

some of us havn't forgotton the age old art of optimisation and know exactly what is possible.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Having trouble doing that? Yes I though you would.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I would hope so because you seem to be severly misguided.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Umm, DUH!, you don't have a clue do you. ( A statement not a question btw. )
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I'll leave you to figure out how I converted that one.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

Its like this, I myself wouldn't insult you and claim to be an expert in whatever the finer points of your PHD are, so don't insult me and claim to be an expert at games programming.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

And Finally...

With regard to my attitude all I am doing is stating my opinion, much as other people do. Anyway I do like a constructive discussion, its fires me up for the day.
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]

I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that a lot of the recent posts in this group have been needlessly spiteful, offensive, or downright rude.
Rik Griffin (mouse@cheesey.demon.co.uk)

[---]


The End

And so the shadow of the multitudes breathed a dirty mist on her once-fair surface, and her arteries became clogged with the deaf, clueless, unkind and [1]

[1] Footnotes [2]
[2] Even non-existant and recursive ones [3] [2]

[---]


PS

You still don't get it do you? I know I'm right, other people know I'm right, other people are able to look at the points put forward and make a guess that they are intelligent points so why don't you just role over and admit you're wrong on this subject eh?
Martin Piper (Martin@tbalond.demon.co.uk)

[---]


"You either learn to laugh or you go insane"


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Last updated 29/9/97