The World of Ham Radio CD-ROM From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:18:56 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: underground antennas Date: 1 Aug 1995 12:08:01 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 15 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vljh1$ipk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <3v93tp$abb@news1.usa.pipeline.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >>Hmmm.... I think the best subsurface antenna would probably be a magnetic radiator as opposed to an electrical radiator. Try reading up on slot antennas<< All antennas are electromagnetic radiators. They all have an electric field and a magnetic field. If you saying that the antenna should be low impedance (high distributed current, low voltage) it seems reasonable that the efficiency would be better, but they will still be very lossy when buried or placed near lossy earth. I agree with the suggestion that the house wiring may do most of the radiating if the antenna is worked against a poor station ground. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:18:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Flexi-Weave Antenna Wire Date: 1 Aug 1995 12:20:40 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 24 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vlk8o$iug@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <3vjs98$rf1@hpscit.sc.hp.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >Thanks for sharing that Tom. Do you happen to remember where it >is documented. I'd like to read the original article. >Rick Karlquist N6RK >rkarlqu@scd.hp.com Several places in tech bulletins but the most recent textbook or reference book that sticks in my mind is in the section on transmission line design in Electronic Designers Handbook (McGraw Hill) section 8-25. It states that when the counducter is not solid but braided the losses must be multiplied by approximately 2.75. Another article I read years ago stated that the losses were proportional to the amount of weaves per unit length and the range was from 2 to ten times the resistance of smooth conductors. If I ever see that again in my mess I will tell you. NASA also has data, but primarially for lightning protection. The increased losses may be insignificant if the antenna has low current, but why use it unless it is necessary?? I certainly wouldn't use it in a very long antenna or a phased array. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:18:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!totrbbs!winston.smith From: winston.smith@totrbbs.radio.org (Winston Smith) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <635.14.uupcb@totrbbs.radio.org> Date: 1 Aug 95 13:09:00 GMT Distribution: world Organization: Top Of The Rock BBS Atl, GA 404-921-8687 Reply-To: winston.smith@totrbbs.radio.org (Winston Smith) Lines: 6 subscribe black-powder ---- Top Of The Rock BBS - Lilburn, GA SYSOP: Steve Diggs Phone: +1 404 921 8687 Snailmail: 4181 Wash Lee Ct. Lilburn, GA 30247-7440 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:18:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!news.vcd.hp.com!dmunroe From: dmunroe@vcd.hp.com (Mbutu Nguni) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 1 Aug 1995 20:03:39 GMT Organization: Central Africa Animal Exports Ltd.; Kikwit, Zaire Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3vm1ar$fo@news.vcd.hp.com> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3vci2j$kvt@ccnet2.ccnet.com> <3vkhgj$so5@ccnet2.ccnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpvclmun.vcd.hp.com Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84178 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28854 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12497 Curtis Wheeler wrote: >BTW- Even Dreamworld has CC&Rs - keeps out the riff raff. You mean there's a 20 wpm code test? -Dave From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:18:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 21:16:18 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <3v3432$sck@newshost.lanl.gov> <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vjvhe$944@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com X-To: Cecil A. Moore -FT-~ Cecil A. Moore -FT-~ writes: >entire magazine, just one of the authors. This is a public apology >to anyone who thought I was slamming "Worldradio" in general. That was very nice of you to say, and in the spirit I know it was intended, it was received and accepted. Your material re: the points you have raised on antennas has been forwarded and you will receive an answer. On the FET material your query will be forwarded to the original author and he will be asked for an explanation. regards. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:18:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 21:22:36 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vgeeg$91f@chnews.ch.intel.com> <5BNgZXs.armond@delphi.com> <3vlbi0$mfd@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com X-To: writes: >Let me repeat from memory: I think Kurt said (in so many words) that There may be the problem. There is a great gulf between, "said in so many words" and you putting in QUOTE MARKS around statements. When you put the quote marks around a phrase that means (no paraphrasing) but the exact, again EXACT verbatim words used. Alas, much to our chagrin Kranky Kurt answers almost no letters. Your two dollars will be refunded when it arrives. We don't wish to add injury to....whatever. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!daily-planet.execpc.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!news-server.ncren.net!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!freenet.vcu.edu!freenet.vcu.edu!not-for-mail From: towen@freenet.vcu.edu Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Cell Phone Antennas Date: 1 Aug 1995 22:32:15 -0400 Organization: Central Virginia's Free-Net Lines: 10 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.vcu.edu Why are all car cell phone antennas center loaded. It seems that all of these antennas have a coil and are thus center loaded; is this correct? Are they using a ground plane? --Thanks, Todd -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Todd Owen (KE4UDN) Virginia Commonwealth University towen@freenet.vcu.edu Richmond, Virginia --------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!daily-planet.execpc.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!news-server.ncren.net!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!freenet.vcu.edu!freenet.vcu.edu!not-for-mail From: towen@freenet.vcu.edu Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 5/8 wave vs. J-pole Date: 1 Aug 1995 22:37:26 -0400 Organization: Central Virginia's Free-Net Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vmod6$6tq@freenet.vcu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.vcu.edu I know that a 5/8 wave antenna (over a ground plane) has a gain of 3dBi; what is the 1/2 wave j-pole gain? The same as a dipole, 2.2dBi? Can I make a colinear antenna starting with a 5/8 wave ground plane antenna (mobile) then adding a 1/4 wave stub and additional 1/2 wave section or can the last section be 1/4 or 5/8 wave? Can't find info in ARRL antenna book. --Thanks, Todd -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Todd Owen (KE4UDN) Virginia Commonwealth University towen@freenet.vcu.edu Richmond, Virginia --------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:02 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!newshub.nosc.mil!news!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet From: Bill Harwood Subject: Re: HF Mobile Antennas - Info request Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA References: <5PDDYjn.mlazaroff@delphi.com> <3v09fd$ppj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 23:07:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3v09fd$ppj@newsbf02.news.aol.com Lines: 18 I will also put two cents worth in for top loaded antennas. I have found that my SPIDER top loaded mobil will work on 4 bands (or seven the way I generally run it with a special adaptor) and provide superior perofrmance above 40 meters. The screw driver antennas do a little better (1 to 3 db) on 40 and 80 meters. I do not have to retune the antenna to switch bands. I feed the SPIDER with an SGC-230 feed point tuner to get full band coverage on all HF bands ( don't do 30 M mobil). I never tune the antenna, move switches or move wunderleads. I just tune and transmit. The spider is shorter and more rugged than the your options. I have about 50,000 miles on one. Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!news.paonline.com!paonline.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com Message-ID: <19950802.n64@paonline.com> Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 00:00:00 +0400 Subject: Re: Flexi-weave antenna w Organization: Pennsylvania Online! [uucp/slip/ppp/bbs/FTPHUB] X-Newsreader: TPCB 0.8 21100003 Lines: 21 Rk> W8JI Tom wrote: >I would be sceptical of woven antenna wire. It is a documented fact that >brading has over three times the RF resistance of the same width smooth >copper. So if the wire is really "woven" the resistance could be even >higher at RF. Lot's of stuff enters the selection, such as the radiation >resistance at the current peaks, but I don't know that it is that >necessary to use a super flexable wire in a permanent antenna. > >73 Tom Rk> Thanks for sharing that Tom. Do you happen to remember where it Rk> is documented. I'd like to read the original article. It is also documented that a smooth copper strap has several times the RF resistance of a ROUND copper conductor of the same diameter! (References will be provided upon request!) 73 Bill N6CQ@paonline.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: K2WK@aol.COM Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: VOACAP Ftp Site Date: 2 Aug 95 00:20:17 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 2 Message-ID: <950801202009_45775773@aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu VOACAP can be found on the ftp.voa.gov site, probably in /pub/voa or some such directory. I downloaded it a few months back. 73 de Walt - K2WK From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Wed, 2 Aug 95 02:04:51 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vgeeg$91f@chnews.ch.intel.com> <5BNgZXs.armond@delphi.com> <3vlbi0$mfd@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com X-To: writes: >One time on field day, I strung up an end-fed antenna tied to a string >with no insulator which was tied to the top of a tree. I got out a lot >better after it rained. Ah, you are a true antenna magician since rainwater in non-conductive. But, I believe it. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!usenet From: DB Wilhelm Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Flexi-Weave Antenna Wire Date: 2 Aug 1995 02:13:13 GMT Organization: News & Observer Public Access Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3vmmvp$ob0@parsifal.nando.net> References: <3vjs98$rf1@hpscit.sc.hp.com> <3vlk8o$iug@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grail817.nando.net w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) wrote: > > > >Thanks for sharing that Tom. Do you happen to remember where it > >is documented. I'd like to read the original article. > > >Rick Karlquist N6RK > >rkarlqu@scd.hp.com > > Several places in tech bulletins but the most recent textbook or reference > book that sticks in my mind is in the section on transmission line design > in Electronic Designers Handbook (McGraw Hill) section 8-25. It states > that when the counducter is not solid but braided the losses must be > multiplied by approximately 2.75. > > Another article I read years ago stated that the losses were proportional > to the amount of weaves per unit length and the range was from 2 to ten > times the resistance of smooth conductors. If I ever see that again in my > mess I will tell you. NASA also has data, but primarially for lightning > protection. > > The increased losses may be insignificant if the antenna has low current, > but why use it unless it is necessary?? I certainly wouldn't use it in a > very long antenna or a phased array. > > 73 Tom Tom, I am not ready to make an assumption that because stranded wire causes increased loss in a transmission line that the same thing is true for the conductor in an antenna element. If you have some information to share on that specific topic, I would be interested in you sharing the info with me. 73 de W3FPR Don From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!bird3.i-link.net!usenet From: bringier@i-link.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Heath Antenna Tuner SA 2040 For Sale Date: 2 Aug 1995 02:36:58 GMT Organization: ILink Ltd Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3vmoca$aae@bird3.i-link.net> References: <3vbsob$i0c@news.iadfw.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sanantonio-1-9.i-link.net X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.) > Gene Mason writes: > Selling my pride and joy > Heathkit Antenna Tuner > KW version Model 2040 > Good Condition > E-MAIL me if interested > Gene Mason KZ5V > > >>>> Price and any other info? I'm in San Antonio, Tx. WRU? Bill K5CSJ bringier@i-link.net From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!bird3.i-link.net!usenet From: bringier@i-link.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Help the Astronauts Memorial Foundation Date: 2 Aug 1995 03:07:47 GMT Organization: ILink Ltd Lines: 110 Message-ID: <3vmq63$aae@bird3.i-link.net> References: <3uutvj$5pv@ddi2.digital.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sanantonio-1-9.i-link.net X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.) > progrock@digital.net (Mike Whaley) writes: > Hello all!! > > My name is Mike Whaley KD4UGI, and I would like to ask for help from the > readers of this group with a worthy cause. I am a Technical Specialist > with the Astronauts Memorial Foundation at the Center for Space Education > at the visitor's center at the Kennedy Space Center. AMF is a non-profit > independent organization that was originally set up a month after the > Challenger tragedy to honor all U.S. Astronauts who have given their > lives in the line of duty. As a living memorial to them, AMF operates the > Center for Space Education. We basically take the latest in Instructional > Technology (IT)... computers, software, etc... and teach educators how to > incorporate it into today's classrooms. It is quite a comprehensive > program, after an educator goes through a workshop they have been > instructed in everything from basic computer troubleshooting and > repair (hardware and software), the use of software of all descriptions, > and how to use this technology effectively so that really improves the > education of their students rather than sitting unexploited as often happens > at many schools who don't know how to use it. We typically teach three > teachers from every school in a district, right now we focus mostly on > Florida but work in conjunction with NASA education programs and others > so that we see quite a cross-section of teachers from all grade levels, > subjects, and locations. I work on the Instructional Technology > Evaluation Center, which is a large computer lab with 10 Macintosh and 7 > PC platforms that allows us to both do training and to allow educators to > "test-drive" all sorts of educationally-related software and determine > its suitability to their needs before spending shrinking budget money on it. > This is a free service open to teachers, and is supported by the > donations of many software and hardware vendors. If you are a teacher and > want more info about any of this, please call AMF at the number below and > we can tell you more details! > > I think it is important to point out that even as comprehensive as our > programs are, there is NO COST to the participants, other than the costs > they incur in travel, lodging, and for substitutes at their home schools. > AMF is supported by the funds from the Florida Challenger license plate > program and from private donations. We are not a government agency, we > are entirely independent although we have working partnerships with many > organizations and businesses. > > I am posting this to r.r.a.space because I now have a unique opportunity > to start a Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment (SAREX) station there. I am > sure that most of you are familiar with SAREX contacts where students get > to ask questions of Shuttle crew members, but in my view it would be even > more useful and lasting to get the teachers fired up about amateur radio, > space, and technology because they can then pass it along to hundreds or > thousands of students. I have approval from the powers that be to do this > project, however, with all the other educational projects that are ongoing > I need to get as many donations of equipment and help as I can before we > think about spending a lot of money. (Ie, only buy things that we can't > get donated or permanently loaned.) As the only ham currently working at > AMF, I am far more familiar with this than my co-workers, although myu > boss does know about it and has seen a videotape of a SAREX school > contact, and is supportive of this project. Basically, I would like to > get a good start (by getting not only equipment but volunteers to assist > with this project) before I push for significant sums of money. I believe > that once we have the capability of making contacts, not just SAREX but > Mir, satellite, and terrestrial, then it will become obvious how valuable > a tool this can be to get teachers interested. > > For anyone out there who may be considering donating, remember that this > will be in a very high-visibility location... the KSC visitor's center is > the third most-visited attraction in the state of Florida. So of course, > the publicity value for companies is significant. (We will be sure to > publically acknowledge any assistance given us.) This is in the > formaticve stages right now, I have some ideas about specific equipment I > would like to use but I will consider anything. At minimum, right now we > need a 2-meter radio, a satellite antenna and the associated rotators and > mast, coaxial cable, and an amplifier to put out 150 watts or so if the > radio won't do that. Of course, I envision having a much more > complete/capable station than that, eventually we would like to have a > special event station to commemorate the return-to-flight after > Challenger so a full-blown station is something to look forward to. But > for now, my main goal is showing that this can work, and that should open > up doors and allow it to expand. > > Thank you, and please feel free to either e-mail, call, snail-mail, or > visit! > > Mike Whaley KD4UGI > The Astronauts Memorial Foundation > Mail Code AMF > Kennedy Space Center, FL 32899 > (407) 452-2887 > > 73 de KD4UGI > > | Mike Whaley progrock@digital.net kd4ugi@ravenloft.stucen.gatech.edu | > | P.O. Box 510717, Melbourne Beach FL 32951-0717 (407) 253-1068 | > | World Wide Web: http://w4aql.gatech.edu/~kd4ugi/mikepage.html | > | And you and I climb over the sea to the valley, | > | And you and I reach out for reasons to call. - Yes | > > > > >>>> I'm K5CSJ in San Antonio, TX. My son, age 8, goes to Scobey Elementary school - named after Dick Scobey. They call themselves the Challengers. (Scoby was from San Antonio). I have made radio presentations to the students, just 2 merer via repeaters. It would be great to have someone fund a mobile unit to do the links with the shuttles. Of course any number of hams would be standing in line to drive and setup the equipment. Sounds like something AMSAT could promote. (i'm a longtime life-member of AMSAT). Possibly some other newsgroups might be a way to promote this. Send info on the Mission, not the technical stuff. Talk to local bankers, etc. ----- I just went to NASA Houston & did the tour with my son. He was impressed when I told him that designed parts for the S1-C , which is on display there. William Bringier, K5CSJ bringier@i-link.net From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.ip.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ground rods Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 03:47:58 GMT Message-ID: <1689977704-950801204758@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 35 -> -> jcoleman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Jim Coleman) writes: -> -> > Unless the flexibility of braid is absolutely necessary, you can us -> > copper water tubing as a ground connection. It's available in vario -> > sizes at all home supply stores. I use it on my tower legs. You fla -> > one end and make a good mechanical connection (like a bolt through -> > drilled hole). Then you follow it up with silver solder and a propa -> > torch. Easy to do and has maintained its integrity for more than 8 -> > years... -> -> Grounding connections should NEVER be soldered. The heat generated by -> strike will melt your solder and there goes the connection. ONLY use -> mechical connections in ground systems! Come on now! A good silver soldered connection, if done correctly is a darn good, low resistance connection. The copper would have to glow red before that solder would let go. I would guess brazing is about the best connection as it would blend the metals better than just about anything. Most companies in the business of grounding are cad welding the connections and staying completely away from any mechanical connections what-so-ever. Anyway, if one were to take a direct strike, a 1/4" copper wire is going to be destroyed in microseconds no matter what type of connection is on it. All we can do is minimize the effects of a direct hit. If you are grounding for lightning protection, you are messing with mother nature and a 2"thick ground buss might not be big enough. Jim Wooddell WA6OFT RACEBBS - QWK Internet Gateway - 520.669.9225 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ip.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ground rods Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 03:47:58 GMT Message-ID: <58926143-950801204758@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 35 -> -> jcoleman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Jim Coleman) writes: -> -> > Unless the flexibility of braid is absolutely necessary, you can us -> > copper water tubing as a ground connection. It's available in vario -> > sizes at all home supply stores. I use it on my tower legs. You fla -> > one end and make a good mechanical connection (like a bolt through -> > drilled hole). Then you follow it up with silver solder and a propa -> > torch. Easy to do and has maintained its integrity for more than 8 -> > years... -> -> Grounding connections should NEVER be soldered. The heat generated by -> strike will melt your solder and there goes the connection. ONLY use -> mechical connections in ground systems! Come on now! A good silver soldered connection, if done correctly is a darn good, low resistance connection. The copper would have to glow red before that solder would let go. I would guess brazing is about the best connection as it would blend the metals better than just about anything. Most companies in the business of grounding are cad welding the connections and staying completely away from any mechanical connections what-so-ever. Anyway, if one were to take a direct strike, a 1/4" copper wire is going to be destroyed in microseconds no matter what type of connection is on it. All we can do is minimize the effects of a direct hit. If you are grounding for lightning protection, you are messing with mother nature and a 2"thick ground buss might not be big enough. Jim Wooddell WA6OFT RACEBBS - QWK Internet Gateway - 520.669.9225 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!bird3.i-link.net!usenet From: bringier@i-link.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Radio Shack's FM antenna Date: 2 Aug 1995 05:09:48 GMT Organization: ILink Ltd Lines: 70 Message-ID: <3vn1as$aae@bird3.i-link.net> References: <3v5962$8jk@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sanantonio-1-9.i-link.net Keywords: campus radio X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.) > mdman@ix.netcom.com (Mark Manuelian ) writes: > In <806688056.20619@pinetree.microserve.com> > jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > > > > mdman@ix.netcom.com (Mark Manuelian ) wrote: > >>An infamous prirate broadcaster sued the FCC for fining him for > illegally > >>operating a station. The key to the case they could not show he > caused > >>any harm to anyone. > > > >Operating on unauthorized frequencies is no more harmless than > trespass. > >The crime lies in the violation of the rights of those who are granted > > >legal access to those frequencies. > > > >Rulings like this give a whole new meaning to "ignorance of the law". > > > >73, > > > >Jack WB3U > > I am a broadcaster and believe me I'm very defensive of my 50kw clear > channel signal. So don't even think of firing up on 1030kHz, even 2000 > miles from us. But... > > The pirater made a point that has some validity. The current rules > have no provision for low power broadcasters like himself. Because he > didn't have 15 million dollars available to buy a station he was > prevented an outlet for his alternative programming. You have to hand > to the guy he did take all the risks and was willing to get caught. He > did engineer his system so as to protect others. And broadcasting is a > committment...its not a casual thing like amateur radio. > > I don't encourage anarchy of the airwaves and certainly their was an > affirmation of prosecution of those who violate the rules and do cause > harmful interference. Similar relaxing of enforcement of rules for > "licensed" broadcasters is also in place. Again enforcement only when > there is harm, no routine inspections. It makes some sense. > > Anyway this is what the Boston FOB chief told us at a recent SBE > meeting. > > mark ke1ar > > >>>> Amateur Radio is not as "casual" as you think. We are serious about advancing the art. I got a licence at age 15, then a First Class Radiotelephone License at 16. With that I worked as a broadcast engineer for a radio station and two TV stations while I was in college. During that time I founded a radio station for Tulane U. in New Orleans. It is now a full-time FM station, WTUL. We broadcasted over the power lines when we stared at Tulane. I cranked up the power and sometime you could hear us from several blocks away. One SWL even claimed to hearing us from 100 mies away (Maybe??). This was a serious college operation. "Pirate Radio" is potential chaos. Anyone can put a 10KW station on the air- for about $20K it's a snap (as a pirate of course). Who wants to finance that? There are outlets for alternative opinions, even the cable "open access" channels. Also talk-radio. Allowing someone to crank up a transmitter without any controlls is wrong. If one wants to do that, go to another country, set up your station, and see what THEIR government says. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!bird3.i-link.net!usenet From: bringier@i-link.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: RG213 coax & 70cm Date: 2 Aug 1995 05:32:50 GMT Organization: ILink Ltd Lines: 58 Message-ID: <3vn2m2$aae@bird3.i-link.net> References: <3v844f$4s2@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sanantonio-1-9.i-link.net X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.) > mdman@ix.netcom.com (Mark Manuelian ) writes: > In mack@ncifcrf.gov (Joe Mack) writes: > > > > > >>In <9507131948574153@saloon.bcbbs.net> > clinton.peebles@saloon.bcbbs.net > >>(Clinton Peebles) writes: > >>> > >>>Hi all. What is the maximum length of RG213 that should be used on > >>>70cm? I have a Cushcraft 11 element 70cm yagi that doesn't seem to > be > >>>doing the trick. I suspect the 100' of coax, but would like a > second > >>>opinion. According to a chart I have, 100 feet of 213 at 400 Mhz > has > >>>aprox. 4.10 dB of attenuation. This seems like a lot to me but I > > > >Any coax at 432 is a lot of coax and you have a LOT of coax. The only > way > >to go from here is money I'm afraid. Heliax (1/2") is relatively > common > >at the bigger ham fests. Youre worst problem is on the receive side > >where not only do you loose 4db of signal, but (to a first approx) you > add > >4db of noise, reducing your S/N by 8db, ie you're stone deaf. A > masthead > >preamp of some sort (eg GaAsFET from ARR, see QST for ads) or a brick > preamp > >at the masthead are two possibilities. Unless you're running > relatively low > >power (10W) the preamp will have to be switched externally in which > case you need > >an antenna change over relay. > > > > Joe NA3T mack@ncifcrf.gov > > > > > > > I don't think 1/2" heliax offers significant improvement in loss over a > quality low loss foam 1/2" coax considering the huge difference in > price. Perhaps 9913 if its not crushed or twisted is a more cost > effective choice. > > I did not understand the 4dB more noise remark. If there is 4dB of > loss the signal will be 4dB lower...the cable contributes very little > noise. If the atmospheric noise is greater than the noise floor of the > receiver then the effective S?N will be reduced by less than four dB. > > mark ke1ar > > > >>>> Resoprisoty applys here. See how much power you are getting at the antenna, if possible. Use aBird or equal. Possibly you can borrow one. Check your local ham club. If you put out 25w and get 1w at hhe antenna, look for vad coax, connectors, etc. Measurement is the key - talk is cheap...... one measurment is worth 100k words. Bill, K5CSJ bringier@i-link.net From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!bird3.i-link.net!usenet From: bringier@i-link.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: toroid cores, testable? Date: 2 Aug 1995 05:47:29 GMT Organization: ILink Ltd Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3vn3hh$aae@bird3.i-link.net> References: <806654858.11669@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sanantonio-1-9.i-link.net X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.) > jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > In article <3v0prr$ao0@baleen.fore.com>, ed@fore.com (Ed Bathgate) wrote: > > > >I have a switching power supply that I am scrapping for parts, > >it has several quite large toroid coils, is there a way I can > >test and measure these in order to use for baluns, or transmatch > >coils? > > These cores have a much higher permeability than those designed for HF > use. In addition, they will exhibit higher loss and earlier saturation at > the higher frequencies. > > I don't think you will be able to use these for the purposes you mentioned, > but they do make excellent "RFI blockers." You can wrap line cords, coax, > phone lines, etc. through the cores and they will be very effective at > isolating the attached device from any RF picked up on the cable. > > 73, > > Jack WB3U > >>>> Great answer Jack. The zillions of olf PC power supplies out there are a great source of anti-rfi parts. Bill, K5CSJ bringier@i-link.net From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!news.sasknet.sk.ca!news From: appld@mailhost.sasknet.sk.ca (Doug Appleton) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Two Meter Intermod Cure Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 08:14:10 GMT Organization: SaskNet News Distribution Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3vmmnh$dlv@tomcat.sasknet.sk.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: sabre21.sasknet.sk.ca X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55 I'll try this again . I thought others suffering from the woes of intermod might be interested in this item. The use of a bandpass filter has improved our repeater beyond our expectations. A new filter is now available to help suppress intermod at repeater sites, mobiles, and home stations. Digital Communications Inc., of White City Sask. Canada is manufacturing a Two Meter filter that meets or exceeds the characteristics of another well known supplier who markets a four cavity filter. The filter has a bandpass of 4Mhz. Price int the US is less then $100.00 and in Canada is around $125.00. Amateur suppliers in both Canada and the US are selling the unit. For further information, contact: Digital Communications Inc. Box 293, White City Sask., Canada, S0G 5B0. Fax 306+781-2008 Direct telco 306+781-4451 From the USA, call 1-800-563-5351 Well worth while to look into. 73 Doug. VE5DA From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Flexi-Weave Antenna Wire Date: 2 Aug 1995 08:28:52 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 13 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vnr24$9fc@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <3vmmvp$ob0@parsifal.nando.net> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >>>Tom, I am not ready to make an assumption that because stranded wire causes increased loss in a transmission line that the same thing is true for the conductor in an antenna element. If you have some information to share on that specific topic, I would be interested in you sharing the info with me. 73 de W3FPR Don<<< So conductor resistance behaves differently in a transmission line than in an antenna??????? 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:17 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Flexi-Weave Antenna Wire Date: 2 Aug 1995 08:37:20 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 27 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vnri0$9hl@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >>>> This sounds better, a comparison of a braid with the same number ands diameters of straight conductors laid parallel shows the increased length of conductors in the braid, and therefore higher resistance. Things get more interesting at high frequencies, and when corrosion makes the contacts between touching weaves lossy.<<< Dave, Absolutely, but even more important than length is the fact that the current travel on the surface of the braid. So the lossy pressure connections from weave to weave add significant loss. Try using braiding in a RF tank circuit and watch the effects. A piece of #12 buss wire runs much cooler than the braid from RG-8 cable when used in the high circuilating current area of a HF amplifier tank. I can only imagine this is from reduced resistance. I'm sure the stuff gets worse when corroded. I think the "approximately 2.75" thing was a rule of thumb. The section specifically deals with coaxial cable design, and probably assumes the standard types of weaves associated with coax. I'm positive a denser weave would be worse, and a simple twist much better. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.rmii.com!nexus.interealm.com!nexus!wayne From: Wayne Wicks Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Need source for 6:1 balun Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 09:15:46 -0600 Organization: ICG/MagNET (303) 745-9205 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3u8rqo$dt2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nexus.interealm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: wayne@nexus In-Reply-To: On Wed, 19 Jul 1995 armond@delphi.com wrote: > WeaverJa writes: > > >balun. I tried Radio Works but they will not sell their 6:1 balun > > THE place to go for baluns of MANY ratios is : Palomar Engineers, Box > 462222, Escondido, CA 92046...ph 619-747-3343 fx 619 747-3346. Jack > Althouse is a most helpful guy and KNOWS Baluns! > I have purchased the Palomar 6:1 balun/xfrmr and it works great.> Wayne Wicks WA2KEC 7581 Lost Ranger Peak Littleton, Colorado USA wayne@nexus.interealm.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!news.sasknet.sk.ca!news From: appld@mailhost.sasknet.sk.ca (Doug Appleton) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Two Meter Intermod Cure - filter.txt (1/1) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 09:37:55 GMT Organization: SaskNet News Distribution Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3vmrjh$ekv@tomcat.sasknet.sk.ca> References: <3vk7co$s72@tomcat.sasknet.sk.ca> <1995Jul31.232235.1@vax.sonoma.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: eagle23.sasknet.sk.ca X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55 harrisok@vax.sonoma.edu (Ken Harrison) wrote: >I don't get it. Why uuencode a text file? >Ken >-- >__________________________________________________________________________ >Ken Harrison --- harrisok@vax.sonoma.edu --- Amateur Radio: N6MHG >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I kinda screwed up a bit Ken. Not intentional. Was also having trouble with the server. Kept telling me it wasnt sent due to hits... It really hicupped... sorry about that.. Cheers doug From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:20 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!lf.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hplextra!hplb!hpwin055.uksr!hpqmoea!dstock From: dstock@hpqmdla.sqf.hp.com (David Stockton) Subject: Re: Flexi-Weave Antenna Wire Sender: news@hpqmoea.sqf.hp.com (SQF News Admin) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 10:51:52 GMT References: <3vlk8o$iug@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpqmocc.sqf.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard LTD, South Queensferry, Scotland X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] Lines: 56 W8JI Tom (w8jitom@aol.com) wrote: : in Electronic Designers Handbook (McGraw Hill) section 8-25. It states : that when the counducter is not solid but braided the losses must be : multiplied by approximately 2.75. That sounds like a suspiciously precise number. I'd expect it to be well fenced in with conditions about braid coverage percentage, number of strands, wire strand diameter, frequency, etc. How does the solid conductor relate to the braid? equal cross-sectional area? equal surface area? I can't easily accept that there is a constant relating all braids to all solid conductors under all circumstances. Without a condition about relative cross-section areas, even relative DC resistances are indeterminate. : Another article I read years ago stated that the losses were proportional : to the amount of weaves per unit length and the range was from 2 to ten : times the resistance of smooth conductors. If I ever see that again in my : mess I will tell you. This sounds better, a comparison of a braid with the same number ands diameters of straight conductors laid parallel shows the increased length of conductors in the braid, and therefore higher resistance. Things get more interesting at high frequencies, and when corrosion makes the contacts between touching weaves lossy. : The increased losses may be insignificant if the antenna has low current, : but why use it unless it is necessary?? I certainly wouldn't use it in a : very long antenna or a phased array. Yes, I agree, although most people seem to want to maximise their antenna currents, of course. Just take a look at the loudspeaker cable wars in the hifi groups. Some of the postings about even low level audio cables are rather entertaining, if a little saddening. Considering the prices I've seen for fancy aerial wires, I think I'd opt for more wire of a simpler and cheaper nature, and build cage type conductors. Cage dipoles are rather nice, the effect on their losses is particularly favourable as their wider bandwidth reduces the need for matching devices and all their associated losses.. Cheers, David GM4ZNX From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!Wiedemann.lab.fh-ulm.de!brunel From: brunel@hugo.rz.fh-ulm.de (PE Roman Brunel) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: T2FD Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 13:05:18 GMT Organization: Fachhochschule Ulm Lines: 6 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: wiedemann.lab.fh-ulm.de X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] Hello... I read about the T2FD- antenna and now I ´d like to try it out. Who has made experiences and can tell me. I think about using a 300 Ohm- resistor (where can I get one for a tx pwr of about 100 w?) and a 1:6 BALUN to feed it with a 50 Ohm coax. Please write to my email- adress - many thanks! 73, Roman (DL2SFE) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 2 Aug 1995 13:45:14 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 32 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vnvha$2po@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <5BNgZXs.armond@delphi.com> <3vlbi0$mfd@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , wrote: > writes: >There may be the problem. There is a great gulf between, "said in so many >words" and you putting in QUOTE MARKS around statements. When you put the >quote marks around a phrase that means (no paraphrasing) but the exact, >again EXACT verbatim words used. Alas, much to our chagrin Kranky Kurt >answers almost no letters. Your two dollars will be refunded when it arrives. >We don't wish to add injury to....whatever. Unless I can't remember how senile I really am, I don't put quotes around anything I'm not looking at while I type it in. I put quotes around some of the SGC stuff and around the FET/Bipolar stuff because I was looking at it at the time. When I say that Kurt said something, without quotes, I am obviously inferring what he said. When he said that a square is always better than a dipole, I inferred that he really meant to say that a full-wave square is always better than a half-wave dipole, and if so, he didn't write what he meant to say. Now there may be a lot of young/new/non-technical hams out there who believe all squares are better than all dipoles because of what Kurt wrote. >>One time on field day, I strung up an end-fed antenna tied to a string >>with no insulator which was tied to the top of a tree. I got out a lot >>better after it rained. > >Ah, you are a true antenna magician since rainwater in non-conductive. But, >I believe it. What you don't know is the string had accidentally been soaked with salt water draining off an ice cream maker the night before. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: ptracy@aol.com (PTracy) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Feeding multiband Quads Date: 2 Aug 1995 13:58:49 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 20 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3voecp$elo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <3vnvha$2po@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Well, I finally made a decision. I am going to re-build my old quad, in time to be blown down again this comming hurricane season or winter.. I miss it. Tired of the 'standby' tribander that's been up there for 5+ years. What I am looking for is either some ideas, suggestions or references on feeding the driven elements. The quad will be the standard 10-15-20 meter deal without Warc bands. The original design used a simple feed method where all three loops were simply tied together and feed through a balun. SWR performance wasn't what I would call spectacular. I do have Bill Orr's book on quads, and one method he uses a tri-gamma matching method that while it does look good electrically, mechanically it seems to leave alot to be desired. Also, the need for variable capacitors (4 total) is most un-appealing. Anyway, I have some time, this isn't something going up next weekend so I do want to take my time with this and do it right. What's your ideas? BTW, one thing I remember about the quad is that it was seemingly immune to precipitation static. I can remember hearing significantly increased static / noise levels while it was either raining heavily or snowing on the yagi. I do remember this did not happen to the quad. Any quad users out there noticed that? From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.lahabra.chevron.com!usenet From: Curtis Wheeler Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 2 Aug 1995 14:59:53 GMT Organization: CCnet Communications Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3vo3ta$4mk@gaudi.lahabra.chevron.com> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3u5u5r$q6k@usc.edu> <3uba16$j74@news.isc.rit.edu><3ur0f2$m5t@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <45@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <47@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <3v915b$4qc@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> <3vaub2$o6m@atheria.europa.com> <3vm785$g9c@hpbab.wv> NNTP-Posting-Host: cgwh.sr.chevron.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84199 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28860 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12512 hanko@wv.mentorg.com (Hank Oredson) wrote: >Frank, > >you left off your callsign. > >You *are* a ham, right? > >Otherwise why would you take part in this discussion ... > >And you live right here in the Portland area, where it is almost >impossible to put up a tower (or any other form of antenna) because >of rules and regulations promulgated by bigots like yourself. > >Please go away and harass some other newsgroup. Huh? Go away because he is (or might not be) not a ham? Just because he doesn't like towers in his neighborhood? A bigot? Did he ever mention that he didn't like hams? - not that I recall. He didn't include his call sign? So what. Do you have to ID at the end of any Amateur newsgroup posting? Or every 10 minutes when posting articles? If you only want to hear "from your own kind", stay in your on world - stick to packet. -- Curtis Wheeler - Pleasanton, CA From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 2 Aug 1995 15:48:09 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vo6np$ah4@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <5BNgZXs.armond@delphi.com> <3vlbi0$mfd@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , wrote: >There may be the problem. There is a great gulf between, "said in so many >words" and you putting in QUOTE MARKS around statements. Armond, I just re-read the entire thread and nowhere did I put "QUOTE MARKS" around anything that wasn't a direct quote. I put no quotes around anything that I recalled from memory, including anything about Sturba. Perhaps it was your own initial use of quotation marks that is confusing you. From *your* posting: >Kindly type on the screen for all concerned when and where Sturba ever >said "A mobile antenna never has an SWR higher than 4:1" Sometimes the attributions get mixed up and/or confused. I did not commit the act you say I did. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: scsmith@nyx.cs.du.edu (steven smith) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: dipole Date: 2 Aug 1995 17:17:26 -0600 Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3vp126$1im@nyx.cs.du.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx.cs.du.edu I have a 2 meter 1/2 wave dipole located in my attic (the roofing material is shake shingles). Can anyone tell me what the nominal impeadance and signal attenuation is for this type of installation? Also the ARRL Handbook says that a balun should be used at the dipole feed point to eliminate RF currents in the Coax shield and recommends using ferrite beads as an RF choke but does not say how to calculate the inductance required. Can anyone tell me how to calculate the required inductance or tell me the number and type of beads I should use? (I am using RG 8X feedline). thanks Steve Smith KB0SZF From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hplextra!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!rkarlqu From: rkarlqu@scd.hp.com (Richard Karlquist) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Flexi-weave antenna w Date: 2 Aug 1995 17:54:03 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3voe3r$54v@hpscit.sc.hp.com> References: <19950802.n64@paonline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpscrj.scd.hp.com In article <19950802.n64@paonline.com>, wrote: > >It is also documented that a smooth copper strap has several times the RF >resistance of a ROUND copper conductor of the same diameter! > >(References will be provided upon request!) > >73 Bill >N6CQ@paonline.com This group is really getting interesting. I have long suspected that those copper strap inductors you often see in linears for the 15 meter coil are bogus; nice to get confirmation. I suspect most of the current is drawn to the edges hence wasting most of the copper. Could you post some references on this? They should settle some arguments I've been in about this. Rick Karlquist N6RK rkarlqu@scd.hp.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: kgrant6383@aol.com (KGrant6383) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Telrex TB6EM info wanted--Me too! Date: 2 Aug 1995 20:22:47 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 5 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vp4sn$lp0@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <8ADA3DD.0F63001578.uuout@rgbcan.com> Reply-To: kgrant6383@aol.com (KGrant6383) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I also have a Telrex TB6EM. I bought it used several years ago and have never put it up. It's been in my basement. I have the Telrex print, but no additional info. Please pass along any info you get. I'm considering selling mine so if you're interested . . . a better email for me than AOL is kgrant@fmrco.com Good luck, 73 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!sysop From: Rick Lehman Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Comments on Force 12 Beam Antennas Date: 2 Aug 1995 20:36:49 GMT Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3vonl1$1e3o@news.gate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dffl5-35.gate.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) I am interested in comments that anyone might have on Force 12 beam antennas. In particular, is anyone using either the C3 or C4 beam? How would you rate its performance, mechanical strength, etc.. Thanks, Rick WB4EJC From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:28 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!koala.uwec.edu!usenet From: dan drumm Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.equipment Subject: ROTOR - Channel master - old tv salvage Date: 2 Aug 1995 20:38:14 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3vonnm$3ho@koala.uwec.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lilith.uwec.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; OSF1 V3.2 alpha) X-URL: news:rec.radio.amateur.antenna/6586-6685#3vljh1$ipk@newsbf02.news.aol.com Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12519 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8687 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84222 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:15344 Ground score! I found an antenna rotor, but have little not no info. Does anyone have/use/know about the channel master crown. I got it from someone who was reroofing --complete with tripod for the roof, but I do not have the controler, and I do not even know the voltage it needs (my guess is 12v). All I can see are the three wires used to control it. It is real old, but fits nicely into me new budget; it was free. ..any help or references appreciated. Dan Drumm N9VOX (general is comming real soon now, but I like this call!) drumm@uwec.edu Wishing you and extra hour each day. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:29 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!metro.atlanta.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Feeding multiband Quads Date: 2 Aug 1995 20:56:28 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3voops$sjo@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vnvha$2po@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3voecp$elo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <3voecp$elo@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, PTracy wrote: >What's your ideas? This is an idea with questions attached and I don't know the answers. Since the quad section one chooses is low impedance and therefore, low voltage, can the switching be accomplished by relays? Is it possible to shield/decouple the relays so they are immune to RF effects and can be operated by DC pulses on the transmission line? >BTW, one thing I remember about the quad is that it was seemingly immune >to precipitation static. Any quad users out there noticed that? In a dipole and transmission line, there is generally no DC path between the poles hence static buildup. In a quad there is a DC path between the transmission line conductors so static discharges. With a 4:1 balun on my dipole, there is also a DC path through the balun and therefore static discharge. It was an unexpected bonus when I installed the balun. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:29 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!elron2.elron.net!usenet From: David Atias Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Cushcraft AR270-10S 70 cm performance ? Date: 2 Aug 1995 22:06:14 GMT Organization: Elron Adar Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3vossm$62h@elron2.elron.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.203.123.54 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Hi all, Is any one has already some experience with this antenna, specially with the 70 cm . Can someone explain me the way it works without duplexer ? Is there something unique in the matching ? Thanks David 4x4cg From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.cs.su.oz.au!metro!asstdc.scgt.oz.au!f400.n712!f505.n712!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Distribution: world X-Comment-To: All From: Stephen Shaw Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 22:12:34 +1000 Subject: Antenna Spacing Message-ID: <807415954@f505.n712.z3.ftn> Organization: Sydney PC Users Group Mail Exchange X-FTN-AREA: REC.RADIO.AMATEUR.ANTENNA X-FTN-MSGID: 3:712/505.0 30203092 X-FTN-Tearline: Maximus 2.02 X-FTN-Origin: Sydney PC Users Group Mail Exchange (3:712/505) X-FTN-SEEN-BY: 712/400 505 X-FTN-PATH: 712/505 X-FTN-PATH: 712/400 Lines: 2 Is there any simple formula to calculate the minimum seperation of two VHF/UHF monopole/dipole antennas so that they will not interfere with each other? From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!ncar!noao!math.arizona.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!nemo!hlester From: hlester@nemo.as.arizona.edu (Howard Lester) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Alternate feedline typesi Date: 2 Aug 1995 22:17:39 GMT Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3voti3$lga@news.ccit.arizona.edu> References: <3vonnm$3ho@koala.uwec.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nemo.as.arizona.edu I have a dipole on my townhome roof (yes, there are restrictions) that I feed with 300 ohm ladderline. Since the routing must be so convoluted, I figure that the entire system is quite unbalanced, and I may not be "enjoying" the low losses I might otherwise expect with this balanced line. (The antenna is 55 feet long, and I use it on 40-10m via a transmatch.) I thought of alternatives: Use SHIELDED twin-lead (yea, where am I going to find THAT stuff any more?) - the shielding allowing me to run a balanced line near metal and other material (which is the case with the present configuration); Use something like 93 ohm RG62/U coax, with ferrite beads at the feedpoint, and hook up a 4:1 or 6:1 Un-un (unbalanced to unbalanced) transformer at the base of my 7 ft. high center support pole (thus hidden from the neighbors). I know coax is lossy at high swr's compared to straight, in the clear twinlead, but with relatively low-loss coax, and getting the swr's down to some "manageable level" via the Un-un, maybe that system would work better than what I have now, with the ordinary unshielded ladderline twinlead. Ideas? Howard Lester KE7QJ hlester@as.arizona.edu From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:32 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!lamarck.sura.net!dtix.dt.navy.mil!navair2.nalda.navy.mil!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet From: Bill Harwood Subject: Re: T2FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: brunel@hugo.rz.fh-ulm.de Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 23:54:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:brunel.25.301F780E@hugo.rz.fh-ulm.de Lines: 19 I will give you a couple of hints. 1. If you are doing any good transmitting you won't need a 100 watt resistor since a lot of power is spent in the radiation and in the loss factors. 2. The Navy did a lot of research, most of documented onoy internally, which shows that about 1000 ohms works better than a 300 ohm resistor in all grounded return type antenna systems. Almost no change in SWR or bandwidth and a bid change in efficiency. I have never actually tried one so take these tid bits with a grain of salt. My be start with 300 ohms and get it working and then try 1000 ohms. Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:33 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!lamarck.sura.net!dtix.dt.navy.mil!navair2.nalda.navy.mil!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet From: Bill Harwood Subject: Re: 5/8 wave vs. J-pole Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: towen@freenet.vcu.edu Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA References: <3vmod6$6tq@freenet.vcu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:06:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3vmod6$6tq@freenet.vcu.edu Lines: 24 Remember, a 5/8 wave antenna is just about a half wave electrically. The 5/8 point is easier to match. i.e. A gamma type match as found on a J pole vs a coil and capacitor arrangement at the 1/2 wave point. A 5/8 performs very similar to a 1/2 wave. If you are over an "optional ground plane and hoe you are spaced and decoupled from the ground plane are interesting features. The Ringo Ranger is an interesting study in 5/8 .. 1/2 wave phased over a ground plane. You may mix and match the 1/4, 1/2, 5/8 and other radiating and phasing sections as you like. Some are better some are worse but all are interesting. Some are easier than others to do; or at least as far as anyone has tried. If I remeber right the ARRL handbook or antenna book has an 1/4 wave over a 5/8 J-pole design. The phasing and matching can get real interesting but at least theoretically possible. Grab an antenna simulation program and some tubing and have a great time. Antennas are one of the things we can still build as well as the factories. Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Cell Phone Antennas Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:09:38 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: towen@freenet.vcu.edu,and Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu Lines: 7 Remeber that the cell phone is in the 800 MHz range and a 1/4 wave is around 3.5 inches. The coil you see is a phasing and matching section not a center load like a 2 meter antenna. Bill Harwood From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:34 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Cell Phone Antennas Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:10:12 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: towen@freenet.vcu.edu,and Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu Lines: 7 Remeber that the cell phone is in the 800 MHz range and a 1/4 wave is around 3.5 inches. The coil you see is a phasing and matching section not a center load like a 2 meter antenna. Bill Harwood From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Cell Phone Antennas Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:13:16 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu Lines: 20 towen@freenet.vcu.edu wrote: >Why are all car cell phone antennas center loaded. It seems >that all of these antennas have a coil and are thus center >loaded; is this correct? Are they using a ground plane? > >--Thanks, Todd >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------- > Todd Owen (KE4UDN) Virginia Commonwealth University > towen@freenet.vcu.edu Richmond, Virginia >--------------------------------------------------------------- Remember that cell phones are operating at 800 MHz and a 1/4 wave antenna is only about 3.5 inches. The coil you are seeing is for phasing and matching not to achive electrical length. Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:31:34 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <5BNgZXs.armond@delphi.com> <3vlbi0$mfd@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vo6np$ah4@chnews.ch.intel.com> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3vo6np$ah4@chnews.ch.intel.com Lines: 31 OK both of you, lets play nice. Here is a data point for you. I was temporarily using my SCG-303 antenna with the SGC-230 (this is my 4wd configuration) not on the QMS system. I was listening to an AM station on 1070 KHz. I tuned the system up to 1500 KHz. The signal strength was less than S-1 on my Yaesu 747. I just got my SPIDER 7 band (80 to 10 without 30) top load repaired and put it on the truck (my highway configuration) and retuned the SGC-230 to 1500 KHz and listend to 1070 KHz. Bingo S2 to S3. Both antennas are on QD-2 couplers so e the change very quickly. To be fair. I have also performed the SGC-303 to CB whip (106 inch steel) comparison. That is a toss up on 15, 12 and 10. Buy the time you are at 40 meters the differance is 2 to 4 S units in favor of the SGC-303 and the whip is even worse at 80 meters. All with the SGC-230. The SGC-230 is a wonderful toy, I love it and it is real rugged. It will not replace lots of wire or real good antenna design. The QMS system is rugged but just so so as an antenna. I use the SGC-230 in combination with the 303 antenna on rough terrain and 4wd but the SPIDER is on there the rest of the time. Yes I always drive the SPIDER through the SGC-230 Have a great day and smile a little Remember its a hobby, Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!usenet From: DB Wilhelm Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Flexi-Weave Antenna Wire Date: 3 Aug 1995 01:09:37 GMT Organization: News & Observer Public Access Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3vp7kh$fh2@parsifal.nando.net> References: <3vmmvp$ob0@parsifal.nando.net> <3vnr24$9fc@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vyger706.nando.net w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) wrote: > > >>>Tom, I am not ready to make an assumption that because stranded wire > causes increased loss in a transmission line that the same thing is > true for the conductor in an antenna element. If you have some > information to share on that specific topic, I would be interested > in you sharing the info with me. > > 73 de W3FPR > Don<<< > > So conductor resistance behaves differently in a transmission line than in > an antenna??????? > > 73 Tom Well Tom, you did not state that the loss was due entirely to conductor resistance, and in fact, transmission line loss is due to dialectric loss as well. There are differences between current flow in a transmission line and in an antenna element. One of the effects is a change in the propogation velocity, it is clearly slower in a transmission line. All I asked was for you to share any info on antenna wire, I am still not going to assume that the behavior of the wire is the same in an antenna element as it is in a transmission line unless you have data to show otherwise. 73 de W3FPR Don From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:38 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 02:17:52 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <5BNgZXs.armond@delphi.com> <3vlbi0$mfd@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vnvha$2po@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: writes: >What you don't know is the string had accidentally been soaked with >salt water draining off an ice cream maker the night before. Yuk, Yuk, VG!....I'll have the other answers for you shortly. 73. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:38 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 02:33:48 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3v3432$sck@newshost.lanl.gov> <3v5lo4$i12@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vperf$m90@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: writes: >"conventional" as a "9 foot whip" under item 5. There probably *is* >some point in the HF spectrum where the SG-303 is 20 dB better than >a 9 foot whip, especially sans tuner. Some point in the spectrum. I thought we had to stay in the amateur bands. What do we care about somewhere else? A lot has been circulating about this and in the flurry of data whizzing around faxwise was something I had never stopped to think about. That 20 dB represents a 100 times power difference. What absolute piece of junk would an an antenna, any antenna, have to be to radiate 1/100 of the power of that of some aother antenna. A tin cup an a wire wouldn't be down 20 dB???????? From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 02:35:20 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <5BNgZXs.armond@delphi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: Bill Harwood Bill Harwood writes: >Have a great day and smile a little OK! From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:42 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 3 Aug 1995 03:12:47 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 61 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vperf$m90@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3v3432$sck@newshost.lanl.gov> <3v5lo4$i12@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com Thanks for the copy of the SGC advertisment. In article , wrote: >Cecil: SGC makes the following claim (quote) " You can get more than 20 dB >of gain by simply using an SGC compared with any other 1.8 to 30 MHz system." > The most interesting point here are : 1.8-, which includes 75M and the with >ANY other system. ANY other! They also say "will typically yield 20 dB of >gain over a conventional 1.8 to 30 MHz mobile installation." > These claims are either: (1.) verifiable, (2.) absurd, (3.) comical, >(4.) disgusting, (5.) buffoonish. Please select your choice. How about (6) misquoted? You could have done a lot better job on that quote, e.g.: "... you can get more than 20 dB of gain by simply using a QMS compared with any other 1.8 to 30 MHz system." That would at least have made people wonder what words you left out. Here's the entire correct quote: "So let us show you how you can get more than 20 dB of gain by simply using a QMS compared with any other 1.8 to 30 MHz system" (possessing the following problems). Problems 1-6 enumerated. Yup, the last four words were added by me because it is pretty clear to me that they were implied by the six problem areas that were then discussed. I listed them a month ago and won't waste more bandwidth. The key is that they said, "So let us show you...". Obviously, if one doesn't suffer from the six problem areas that they enumerated, then one will not realize the "20 dB of gain". Just as obviously, if one doesn't suffer from any of the six enumerated problems, there will be no gain at all. One can always read the six items and say, "Hey, they didn't show me because I don't have the problems they listed". They also say it "will typically yield 20 dB of gain over a conventional 1.8 to 30 MHz HF mobile antenna installation." Then they define "conventional" as a "9 foot whip" under item 5. There probably *is* some point in the HF spectrum where the SG-303 is 20 dB better than a 9 foot whip, especially sans tuner. So things are not nearly as bad as you (or Mr. Sturba) made them sound and that is typical of Mr. Sturba. I would say that he stretched the truth in the opposite direction more than SGC stretched the truth in their favor. SGC is certainly not without fault. Could be some sleazy marketing type edited out the four implied words because it sounded negative. He might also have edited out the "9 foot" just before "conventional" in the first paragraph. The ad definitely could be misleading. Your "quote" (in quotes since it wasn't a correct quote) was misleading. So where do we stand? SGC didn't say what you said they said and what they did say is potentially misleading for some people. But misleading statements shouldn't be misquoted to make them even more misleading. My concern is that some companies may have suffered loss of revenue because of Mr. Sturba's incorrect quotations. Ever considered editing his column for accuracy? 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.nic.surfnet.nl!tuegate.tue.nl!turtle.stack.urc.tue.nl!esrac From: esrac@stack.urc.tue.nl (ESRAC) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Comments on Force 12 Beam Antennas Date: 3 Aug 1995 09:12:16 GMT Organization: Student Association Stack, Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3vq3tg$ro2@tuegate.tue.nl> References: <3vonl1$1e3o@news.gate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: turtle.stack.urc.tue.nl X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Rick Lehman (rlehman@gate.net) wrote: > I am interested in comments that anyone might have on Force 12 beam > antennas. In particular, is anyone using either the C3 or C4 beam? How > would you rate its performance, mechanical strength, etc.. > Thanks, > Rick WB4EJC Hello Rick, Check out the CQ-CONTEST discussion list. Many discussions going on about C3-4 antenna's and others, like TH6/7 PRO's 73 de Aurelio PA3EZL/AA2WH a.m.m.bellussi@stud.tue.nl From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: ptracy@aol.com (PTracy) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Feeding multiband Quads Date: 3 Aug 1995 12:00:39 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 23 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vqrr7$5t0@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <3voops$sjo@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <3voops$sjo@chnews.ch.intel.com>, cmoore@sedona.intel.com writes: >This is an idea with questions attached and I don't know the answers. >Since the quad section one chooses is low impedance and therefore, low >voltage, can the switching be accomplished by relays? Is it possible >to shield/decouple the relays so they are immune to RF effects and can >be operated by DC pulses on the transmission line? > This may be possible, haven't ruled it out. I have learned over time that the selection of a good relay is no simple task. I have a Heathkit remote antenna switch that is out in my 'doghouse' at the base of the tower. Even though it is protected from the elements, I already had 1 relay failure relay in it. It was used for switching between 4 different dipoles, and rarely had to handle QRO. 100 watts or less 99% of the time. If I can figure out what the trouble is, I may just use that box to switch the different loops. The big question is what to do to prevent this from happening again. Thanks for reply. Pat, KE1C From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!teleport.com!radio From: radio@teleport.com (FBenterprises) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: FBenterprises Web Page Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 12:06:01 Organization: FBenterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-vanc2-27.teleport.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] Just a quick announcement of FBenterprises new Web Page. FBenterprises sells Amateur Radio Publications, including Repeater Maps, and the full line of ARRL Publications (at a DISCOUNT!). The URL for the page is: http://www.teleport.com/~radio/ham.html Thank you! 73! Bob Martin N7JXN FBenterprises From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news1.cle.ab.com!cle.ab.com!bjp From: bjp@cle.ab.com (Brian J. Pennebaker) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Larson Antenna installation problem Date: 3 Aug 1995 12:53:14 GMT Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc. Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vqgrq$135@news1.cle.ab.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kittiwake.cle.ab.com Keywords: A friend of mine is having a problem installing a Larson mirror mounted 5/8 wave 2 meter antenna. The VSWR is 4:1 range and his Tm255a Kenwood rig will only put out 5W. We are installing it on his Van's mirror. The protection circuitry is activiated in the rig due to hight VSWR. We have tried many different mounting ideas. We have a good ground connection and tried a second antenna also. We are looking for help. Please email me. 73, Brian N8RPA From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!not-for-mail From: visions@news.gate.net (Ray Johnston) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: AEA Isoloop - Old vs New Date: 3 Aug 1995 14:16:00 -0400 Organization: Digital Visions Corporation Lines: 12 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <3vr3p0$2452@hopi.gate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hopi.gate.net Can anyone tell me the difference in operational characteristics between the old Isoloop design with the 'flat' tuning unit on the antenna loop, and the new design with the tuning unit in the center of the loop? Thanks... Ray -- -------- Ray Johnston (rayj@netrunner.net & visions@gate.net) Boca Raton FL USA From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jkenny809@aol.com (JKenny809) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Any experience with eggbeater antenna's?? Date: 3 Aug 1995 14:17:38 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 2 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vr3s2$87g@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: jkenny809@aol.com (JKenny809) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I am looking at the m2 antenna's and wonder if anyone has any experience with the eggbeater antenna's. Any feedback would be appreciated. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:47 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!dgf From: dgf@netcom.com (David Feldman) Subject: Re: Telrex TB6EM info wanted--Me too! Message-ID: Organization: Organization? Me? References: <8ADA3DD.0F63001578.uuout@rgbcan.com> <3vp4sn$lp0@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 14:46:05 GMT Lines: 15 Sender: dgf@netcom17.netcom.com In article <3vp4sn$lp0@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kgrant6383@aol.com (KGrant6383) writes: >I also have a Telrex TB6EM. I have a TB6EM bought NEW from Telrex in 1988. It arrived ONLY with a blueprint showing the dimensions; nothing else in terms of docs. Telrex died shortly after I bought the thing (it was a big hassle getting a replacement trap for one that had infant mortality). Altho the company is gone, the antenna works well and has survived very heavy winds (100 MPH) without any problems at all since 1988. It is still nice to look at, too. A friend of mine has been thru two KLM KT-34XA's (with those plastic decoupler things and such) during the same time. I do wish Telrex had gone on to build bigger/better multiband yagis. 73 Dave WB0GAZ dgf@netcom.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:47 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: bsager@infi.NET (Ben Sager) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: unsubscribe Date: 3 Aug 95 15:26:00 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 16 Message-ID: <199508031529.LAA27844@larry.infi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu unsubscribe end ************************************************************************* Ben Sager KC4ASF @ KC4ASF.#NOVA.VA = Amateur Radio Packet AFA2OS @ AFA2OS.VA = VA AF MARS Packet Manager bsager@infi.net <-- This address no good after August 10th!! bsager@interserf.net = Internet address Fredericksburg, VA ************************************************************************* From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:49 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!ent-img.com!wb6hqk!bart From: bart@wb6hqk.ampr.org (Bart Rowlett) Subject: Re: HF Mobile Antennas - Info request Organization: wb6hqk Message-ID: References: <1628514142-950727183157@racebbs.com> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:28:44 GMT Lines: 57 In article <1628514142-950727183157@racebbs.com>, Jim Wooddell wrote: >-> From: steve6920@aol.com (Steve6920) >-> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna >-> References: <1235267599-950725192310@racebbs.com> >-> >-> Hi Jim, >-> I have been involved in HF mobile since the '70s and have used it a >-> to support USAF MARS and other emergency communications. I used to r >-> the Hustler antennas and had upgraded to four of their resonators on >-> single mast to get multi frequency operation. I, too, recently switc >-> to the screwdriver antenna and have made some comparisions to the Hus >-> antenna. >-> The screwdriver antenna is more efficient and has a much higher Q t >-> the Hustler (note I had the regular resonators and not the super >-> resonators. I have heard the super resonators had a little higher Q >-> efficiency). It is really apparent on the lower frequencies. I woul >-> switch back to the Hustlers except in a emergency. > >Sounds interesting. Yes the super resonators do have a wider bandwidth. Interestingly, the efficiency of the super resonators (75 meters anyway) is slightly below that of the standard resonator. The increased bandwidth appears to be partially due to the higher losses and the rest from increased capacitance resulting from the larger size; the inductance is slightly lower. >How about reliability? Is the screwdriver as tough as the Hustler >antennas? I think that depends on exactly what sort of abuse you're going to subject the antenna to. I've been running the same set of Hustlers on various 4wd vehicles for nearly 20 years now and they have survived. I use springs both at the base and resonator and manage to get away with all sorts of clanging and banging against trees and canyon walls. The screwdriver will often have the base section protected from obsticals leaving the relatively streamlined whip to deal with hazards. The primary failing of the screwdrivers is the connection between the coil and the base section. The contact between the fingers and coil stock is subject to corrosion and failure at high power. As the resistance increases, so does the i^2 * R losses and the junction gets hot eventually causing failure of a plastic component. Do you think they would take a bunch of knocking around in >a 4x4? I'm considering upgrading to either a screwdriver or bugcatcher but currently favor the bugcatcher since the following improvement will be a 500+ watt amplifier which will defiantly damage the screwdriver. Otherwise I think with the right antenna they would work OK. bart wb6hqk bart@wb6hqk.ampr.org From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 3 Aug 1995 15:41:09 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 38 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vqqml$m7o@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3v3432$sck@newshost.lanl.gov> <3vperf$m90@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , wrote: > writes: >Some point in the spectrum. I thought we had to stay in the amateur bands. Hi Armond, it occurred to me last night after my posting that you and I could be suffering from language problems. Unfortunately, I learned my English in Texas (some say they don't speak English in Texas :-) I was speaking in the context of the HF amateur bands. Here's how their claim could be true. Compare the QMS antenna system with a "conventional 9 ft whip" on 30m. Use my IC-725. I have no doubt that the QMS system will radiate 20 dB more RF than the barefoot IC-725 because of foldback. Admittedly, I am playing devil's advocate. I am not defending their claims. I am demonstrating how they may be rationalizing their claims. My native Japanese friends will never understand the difference between "can" and "will". Compare the following two statements: I can die tomorrow. Obviously true I will die tomorrow. Probably false, hopefully I am mistaken. SGS didn't say the QMS system "will" make a 20 dB difference. They said it "can" make a 20 dB difference, given a certain set of circumstances, which they enumerated. We all know that they exaggerated the effects of the items they listed and it is not likely that all the items would ever exist in unison. They may have meant to convey the impression that the QMS system is 20 dB better, but they didn't say it "will" improve things by 20 dB. All I'm asking is that Mr. Sterba take the time to insure that the statements he makes and the quotes he uses are 100% accurate except for unintended mistakes. When he throws out the bath water, how about him mentioning that the baby wasn't also thrown out. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (100% all my own fuzzy logic, not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Rubber Duck Help Date: 3 Aug 1995 17:01:58 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 2 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vrdg6$be4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Why is a rubber duck called a rubber duck? Does anyone know where the name came from? From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:51 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!druid.borland.com!csus.edu!netcom.com!klausner From: klausner@netcom.com (Ben Klausner) Subject: Re: Ground rods Message-ID: Organization: Department of Redundancy Department References: <3v3ev6$2ng@atheria.europa.com> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:57:49 GMT Lines: 27 Sender: klausner@netcom11.netcom.com In article <3v3ev6$2ng@atheria.europa.com>, Frank Adrian wrote: >In reading the AARL Antenna Book, it mentions that normal 5/8" electrical >contractor ground rods made of steel should not be considered as adequate >for use as antenna grounds. They recommend two alternatives, the first >being the use of copper pipe (which requires soldering on tee-fittings, >etc., to connect a hose for water drill insertion, which I really don't >want to do), the second being the use of copper clad steel rods (which >can be driven by hammer). My question is, "Where can you get these >copper clad steel rods?" > On a related note, the normal "installation" method seems to be pounding the rods into the ground with a sledge, but the last time I did this, it refused to go any further than 6', in an area not noted for being rocky. I recently saw a TV clip (This Old House??) where they were installing ground rods with a heavy duty electric drill. Has anyone tried this? P.S. True Value hardware stores, which are a cross between local and a chain also normally carry ground rods. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben Klausner, N5DJL | Storing files in /tmp is an klausner@netcom.com | oxymoron. Austin, TX | From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!usenet From: jbmitch@vt.edu (jbmitch) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience SGC Taiwan made Date: 3 Aug 1995 18:04:08 GMT Organization: Virginia Tech/Blacksburg Electronic Village Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3vr32o$n4u@solaris.cc.vt.edu> References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vdec2$o2i@newshost.lanl.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: jbmitch.beva.blacksburg.va.us X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1 In article , jan.anker@ping.be (Jan Anker) says: >>. SGC makes a >>good tuner but other than that they are a bullshit outfit. They also make a very fine 12 v 550 w mobile amplifier, the SG-500, which I have been using for several weeks now. The quality of this amp puts the MFJ/Amer. to shame... - John From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jkenny809@aol.com (JKenny809) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: M^2 eggbeater antenna Date: 3 Aug 1995 18:04:14 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 2 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vrh4u$cj8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: jkenny809@aol.com (JKenny809) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Does anyone have any experience with the eggbeater antenna's? Please share your story with me as I am contemplating purchasing them. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!sun4nl!xs4all!usenet From: starbbs@xs4all.nl (Marco Valk) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: DL6WU at 481.5 Mhz Date: 3 Aug 1995 18:05:00 GMT Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Lines: 42 Message-ID: <1504.6423T134T2506@xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: asd03-17.dial.xs4all.nl X-Newsreader: THOR 2.1ß (TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Hello, Can anybody calculate to me a Antenna of the DL6WU Design According to the book of Gunther hoch ?, and NOT calculated by a Software program ? Specifications: Beam: 12.5 X 12.5 Centimeters Element : 0.6 Centimeters (6 mm) Number of element TOTAL: +/- 30 Frequency: 481.5 Mhz Fed by an Open Dipool with a Balun attached to it. (300/FREQ= ? X 0.659) All elements are put Through the boom, thus are NOT isolated. The Open Dipool, also NOT isolated, except the bottom part, where the coax and balun is fed, the upper side of the dipool is attached ON the boom. * So i need all element length's in Centimeters (including reflector & Dipool) * Space in centimeters between each element. * Calculated Lambda figures fr each dipool. Also are there figures in Lambda that are correct to calculate the space between each element ???, cause i have saw in a translated book of Gunther Hoch, that there was a table displaying those figures sothat i can calculate the spaces like this: 300/FREQ=Number Number X 0.200 = Space (0.200 is the figure in the table for example the space between refelctor and dipool) MANY thanks if someone can help me with this, cause i tried to design a antenna for this frequenty, but it is hard to interpreter a Diagram to calculate the multiplier figure ( used when elements are THROUGH the Boom) Also, i thought the reflecter HAS to be approx. 0.49 y, is this correct, if not please give me the figure for my antenna for the above specifications. Regards, Marco Valk From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jkenny809@aol.com (JKenny809) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Quadrifiler antenna Date: 3 Aug 1995 18:18:59 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 2 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3vri0k$ct4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: jkenny809@aol.com (JKenny809) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Does anyone know how to make this antenna or know where to find a good explanation on how to make one properly? From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!holmes.sgate.com!jekyll.sgate.com!donovanf From: Frank Donovan Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ground rods Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:19:28 -0400 Organization: Southgate Internet Host Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3v3ev6$2ng@atheria.europa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jekyll.sgate.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: Yes indeed, I have used a hammer drill to install ground rods and it works great! 73! Frank W3LPL donovanf@sgate.com <> > I recently saw a TV clip (This Old House??) where they were installing > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ben Klausner, N5DJL | Storing files in /tmp is an > klausner@netcom.com | oxymoron. > Austin, TX | > > From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:56 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 3 Aug 1995 19:12:37 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vr735$5do@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vo6np$ah4@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , Bill Harwood wrote: >OK both of you, lets play nice. Sorry, ran out of prozac. :-) >The QMS system is rugged but just so so as an antenna. I use the >SGC-230 in combination with the 303 antenna on rough terrain and 4wd but >the SPIDER is on there the rest of the time. Bill, I haven't ever seen the 303 but from the description I gather it is a whip within a coil so it has two resonant points. Question: what does the whip do to the Q of the coil? Do you know anything about the bandwidth? If it's broadband, it's lossy? If it's not lossy, it's not broadband? For non-resonant antennas, I follow the same rule for fixed or mobile. No less than 3/8 wavelength for a dipole - no less than 3/16 wavelength for a monopole (whip). That's why I run a 13 ft whip with the SGC-230 to cover 10m-20m mobile. The 14 ft. S10 pickup counterpoise helps a lot. Come to think of it, a 13 ft whip and a 14 ft counterpoise might cure the portable backpack antenna problem that Joanna mentioned. I've never tried my setup on 75m and on 40m it is one 'S' unit (6dB?) down from a bugcatcher. That's better than I was expecting. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (100% my own fuzzy logic, not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:56 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!news From: Jim_pestell@mindlink.bc.ca (jim pestell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Tubes Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 19:22:33 GMT Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 3 Message-ID: <3vr825$kfe@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: line012.nwm.mindlink.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Any one have a good sorce or tubes? I need a 6bv8 as will as others for my old tube rigs From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.mindlink.net!news From: Jim_pestell@mindlink.bc.ca (jim pestell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: TUBES Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 19:22:36 GMT Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 5 Message-ID: <3vr827$kfe@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: line012.nwm.mindlink.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Has anyone got a good sorce for tubes? All rigs here are the old tube type and I am always in need of some thing or the other! Help! From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.mindlink.net!news From: Jim_pestell@mindlink.bc.ca (jim pestell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: tubes Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 19:22:38 GMT Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 3 Message-ID: <3vr82a$kfe@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: line012.nwm.mindlink.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 I have older rigs and need tubes , has any one got a good sorce?? From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:59 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Message-ID: <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3vaub2$o6m@atheria.europa.com> <3vce8q$ad9@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> <3vj6k4$feb@atheria.europa.com> <3vm10l$bm@news.vcd.hp.com> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:51:28 GMT Lines: 42 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84277 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28878 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12556 In article <3vm10l$bm@news.vcd.hp.com> dmunroe@vcd.hp.com (Mbutu Nguni) writes: > >Frank Adrian wrote: > >>I didn't say that aesthetics should be used to determine "rights". In >>fact, I believe that the constitution is very clear on what determines >>rights. > >You believe wrongly. The Constitution doesn't enumerate all the things >that are possibly allowed -- it indicates which rights our government may >not infringe on. It lists some of the specially important rights our government may not infringe, as well as some rights we've agreed to allow the government to infringe. It by no means lists all rights. The Declaration of Independence says our rights are endowed by our Creator, IE are natural rights, and are inalienable, IE may neither be granted nor denied. Government can only infringe rights, by use of force or threat of force, or by consensus, though the latter is usually so rare as to be of only theoretical consideration. >>And there is no right (as enumerated by the constitution and >>upheld by many levels of courts) to build a radio tower in your backyard. > >There is nothing enumerated in the Constitution that says I can wear a >Hawaiian shirt either, but yet I'm doing so at this very moment! Amazing! Yes, government only has the power to infringe rights, through use, or threat of use, of force. It never has the power to grant rights, which are our inalienable heritage, though it may attempt to grant special privileges to some, again backed by force or threats of force as necessary. Government is the embodiment of raw power, and as Mao said, "All power flows from the barrel of a gun." Government lives or dies on the fear engendered by its armed minions. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:19:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!agis!ns2.mainstreet.net!ftp.netgate.net!ng62.netgate.net!user From: rtm@ftp.netgate.net (Bob Martin N6MZV) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: M^2 eggbeater antenna Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 21:12:37 -0700 Organization: NetGate Communications Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3vrh4u$cj8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ng62.netgate.net In article <3vrh4u$cj8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jkenny809@aol.com (JKenny809) wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with the eggbeater antenna's? Please > share your story with me as I am contemplating purchasing them. I've got one and am very pleased with it. Been using it mostly for SAREX work, and WX sats. Good coverage down to the horizon and up overhead. I've been able to work the shuttle on its wonderful 28 degree orbits with the eggbeater, even though we only get about 11 degree elevation passes at best here in silicon gulch. The only thing I wish was different is to have an N connector on the thing rather than the UHF. When I assembled it, I put antioxidant on the ends of the copperweld where they go into the connectors on top of the phasing box. I'd call M2 direct and not bother with the dealers- get the ground plane kit at the same time, it will save you time trying to duplicate what they make very well- HRO didn't even know the ground plane kit existed for this antenna. 73- -- Bob Martin N6MZV * rtm@ftp.netgate.net From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!nando.net!ad4rk From: ad4rk@nando.net (Chip Irek) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Windows Logbook Shareware at FTP site Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:21:40 Organization: News & Observer Public Access Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: grail805.nando.net X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] I have uploaded the latest version of the AD4RK Logbook for Windows shareware (version 2.1). The FTP site is oak.oakland.edu and the path is pub3/hamradio/pc/logging/logbook.zip. You can get to this FTP site on the WWW at the Boston Amateur Radio Club FTP archive. Many thanks to Scott Ehrlich! Please give the logbook a try. Suggestions for improvements are welcome. Respond to ad4rk@nando.net. Thanks for your interest! 73 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:02 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Antenna and lighteni Message-ID: <1995Aug3.212303.2807@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <01HTJYCD6FHU00CU92@uthscsa.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:23:03 GMT Lines: 43 In article <01HTJYCD6FHU00CU92@uthscsa.edu> MUENZLERK@uthscsa.edu (Muenzler, Kevin) writes: >mead@tetonrtp.dg.com (Glenn Mead) writes: > >>It was explained to me that the grounds were >>there to attempt to equalize any electrical differences between the >>structure trying to be protected and the earth around it. The grounding >>systems were supposed to allow a slow, natural balancing of electrical >>potential in an effort to avoid the strike. > >This is also true. If you will notice, the large diameter conductors of >lightning "arrestor" systems on buildings are connected to large, sharp >spikes at the top corners of buildings since this is where static charges >would normally build anyway. These spikes will gather the charge and >divert it to ground, hopefully before a significant streamer can develop >from it. Since the copper in the wire is a much better conductor than >the building itself the slow buildup of static electricity is drained by the >wire to ground. This is false. The charge that generates streamers comes *from* the Earth (calling Earth zero volts is just a measuremental convention, and says nothing about the charges present). So the better conductors carry it to the pointed rods better than if it had to make its way up the unknown impedance of the building structure. And the pointed rods form streamers at a lower potential than blunt structures. Lightning is an attempt to equalize the charge between Earth and cloud. *Both* bodies have equal but opposite local charges (like the plates of a capacitor) induced by the storm. Streamer currents flow *up* from the Earth while step leader currents flow down from the cloud. (This is over simplified, either Earth or cloud can be the negative charge or the positive charge. The majority carriers obviously reverse with charge polarity reversals, but that's a detail we can ignore here.) The principle by which a lightning rod works is that of generating an early and strong streamer, so that it is preferentially the target of the strike, and not the rest of the structure that it is protecting. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 22:58:31 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vo6np$ah4@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vr735$5do@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: Cecil: I have a message for you. To your 5/4 dipole. You claim 9dbi. That is 7dBd. Your antenna is about 83.6 feet long. A half-wave dipole would be about 33.4 ft. Your antenna is 2.5 half-wave dipoles. Assuming it takes a doubling of antenna size to pick up 3dBd, now we are at 2 HW. Since it would take another TWO half-waves to pick up another 3dBd, the quarter-wave remaining adds a miniscule amount. As to where the other 4dBd you have claimed are hiding in all this is a good question. "square" antenna (which you mocked) beat your dipole? Yes. Since you chose to go to an "extended" dipole, I will go to the square antenna as outlined by Bill Orr on page 99 of his book "Quad Antennas".It is the "expanded" Quad, which is one half-wave on a side. It is a total of 2 WL to your 1-1/4.Touche' Next, the SGC: Their statements are: will typically yield 20dB of gain over a conventional 1.8 to 30 MHz HF HF mobile installation." Contrary to your interpretation, a "conventional, etc" would not have all of the outlined maladies they later mention. Next, here is the true crux of the matter: "you can get more than 20dB of gain by simply using a QMS compared with any other 1.8 to 30 MHz system. Their statement is ANY OTHER. ANY OTHER! It doesn't matter if they say, "let us show you how" They have committed themselves to saying ANY OTHER. As to their qualifiers: If you add them all up (as they state) you can get as high as nearly 40dB difference. That is 10x10x10x10. Or the difference between 100 Watts and .01 (1/100) of a watt. Just how totally bad would an antenna have to be to get beat like that by anything. Hardly a "conventional" antenna.....or "ANY OTHER" 1.8-30 MHz system. Your remarks are, of course, invited and will be given studious thought. PS. Only another OF would remember the back porch ice cream maker, round and round the crank went. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:05 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: Alternate feedline typesi X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <3vonnm$3ho@koala.uwec.edu> <3voti3$lga@news.ccit.arizona.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:01:10 GMT Lines: 52 Howard Lester (hlester@nemo.as.arizona.edu) wrote: : I have a dipole on my townhome roof (yes, there are restrictions) that : I feed with 300 ohm ladderline. Since the routing must be so convoluted, : I figure that the entire system is quite unbalanced, and I may not be : "enjoying" the low losses I might otherwise expect with this balanced : line. (The antenna is 55 feet long, and I use it on 40-10m via a transmatch.) : I thought of alternatives: Use SHIELDED twin-lead (yea, where am I going : to find THAT stuff any more?) - the shielding allowing me to run a balanced : line near metal and other material (which is the case with the present : configuration); : Use something like 93 ohm RG62/U coax, with ferrite beads at the feedpoint, : and hook up a 4:1 or 6:1 Un-un (unbalanced to unbalanced) transformer at : the base of my 7 ft. high center support pole (thus hidden from the : neighbors). : I know coax is lossy at high swr's compared to straight, in the clear : twinlead, but with relatively low-loss coax, and getting the swr's down : to some "manageable level" via the Un-un, maybe that system would work : better than what I have now, with the ordinary unshielded ladderline twinlead. : Ideas? : Howard Lester KE7QJ : hlester@as.arizona.edu I tried using shilded 300 ohm tv feeder once. The was loss was horrible! Don't bother. I used RG62 on my horizontal loop on all bands for 2 years. This worked good on all bands. I used a 4:1 balun at the transmitter end.The shields should be grounded at the rig end and left hanging at the feed point on the antenna. Try to avoid resonant lengths of coax because the shield makes an excellent antenna! I used 50ft. If it is resonant, you will experience RF on everything. Bear in mind this worked for a loop which always has a fairly low swr anyway. The dual rg62's total to around 200 ohms and the loop is close to that on all harmonically related frequencies. Not so with your dipole. If you try and use an 8o meter dipole on 40 and use any kind of coax, the swr is several hundred to one and losses are unbearable. I submitt that your better off with the inbalance as it is. Don't bother with alternate feeders. Note that 300 ohm transmitting line having small windows like the 450 ohms stuff is avaible. The smaller size, 1/2". will allow you to route it easier and keep it away from metal. Also, smaller balanced lines can be closer to metal without unbalancing it. Finally, the 300 ohms line results in smaller current/voltage excursions on the line thus lowering losses. -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:06 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!newshub.nosc.mil!news!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet From: Bill Harwood Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: jdow@BIX.com Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA References: <3vesft$bpj@newshost.lanl.gov> <3vi627$qjj@news2.delphi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:02:08 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3vi627$qjj@news2.delphi.com Lines: 16 I will add a couple of additional wrenches. The Navy, San Diego, was looking at HF antennas for small craft in the early 1960's. Their research showed that the higher you load an antenna the better its efficiency. Thus I use a top loaded SPIDER and an SGC-230 to broaden the frequency coverage. The SGC-303 antenna on the QMS system is sort of two continuous loaded antenna sections which are supposedly, according to the literature, resonate at about 10 MHz and 15 MHz approximatly. I have never been satisified with the transmit or recieve performance of the SGC-230 and SGC-303 combination. Have a Great One Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.eng.convex.com!cowart From: cowart@news.eng.convex.com (Michael Cowart) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: HELP with crank-up tower Date: 4 Aug 1995 03:09:39 GMT Organization: Engineering, Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx USA Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3vs31j$fca@worm.convex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I have an old Tri-Ex W36 crank-up tower. I need a baseplate, I know it will be hard to find one, but can anyone point me to one? I am pretty sure Tri-EX is out of business. I haven't seen them advertized in any mags since around 1988. any info would be appreciated, thanks Mike WA5CMI -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Cowart e-mail: cowart@convex.com Convex Computer Corp. My opinions are mine, not my employer's. Richardson, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: Theresa Pietrzak Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: test Date: 4 Aug 1995 04:25:34 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 2 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vs7fu$7k0@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-day-oh1-17.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1PE (Windows; I; 16bit) test From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.sandia.gov!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!newshost.lanl.gov!usenet From: Gerald Schmitt Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: HELP with crank-up tower Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 07:30:39 MST Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3vtb5r$bis@newshost.lanl.gov> References: <3vs31j$fca@worm.convex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ggspc.lanl.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Tri-Ex will be startled to learn of their demise. Please call then at 1-800-328-2393 and inform them they are out of business. Needle retracted I talked to them just a few days ago they are alive and well and very helpful with the older towers. I just bought a W-36 tilt over and could make you an engineering as built drawing from my base plate. 73 de Jerry From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!DIALix!melbourne.DIALix.oz.au!not-for-mail From: binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au (Martin Deeley) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Cell Phone Antennas Date: 4 Aug 1995 09:55:39 +1000 Organization: DIALix Services, Melbourne, Australia. Lines: 9 Sender: binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vrnlr$jsb$1@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au> References: <3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu> towen@freenet.vcu.edu wrote: : Why are all car cell phone antennas center loaded. It seems : that all of these antennas have a coil and are thus center : loaded; is this correct? Are they using a ground plane? : --------------------------------------------------------------- : Todd Owen (KE4UDN) Virginia Commonwealth University Really? look up 5/8 over 1/4 co-linears. G0OQC(inactive and wondering if he should ever bother again!) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!upsnews.ups.com!newsadm From: Guy Hamblen Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Antenna and lighteni Date: Fri, 04 Aug 95 10:30:17 PDT Organization: United Parcel Service Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <01HTJYCD6FHU00CU92@uthscsa.edu> <1995Aug3.212303.2807@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: guy_hamblin.telecom.ups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage > > The principle by which a lightning rod works is that of generating an > early and strong streamer, so that it is preferentially the target of > the strike, and not the rest of the structure that it is protecting. > -- > Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Gary's point is logically well taken. Now we have lightning rods, towers, and antenna systems becoming "preferential" targets for a cloud-earth equalization! So "lightning protection" becomes a misnomer. Since an "average" discharge can exceed 60 kiloamperes with a rampup time between 0.1 to 10 microsecs, protection efforts should focus on low *impedance* paths to dissipate this current. DC grounding techniques are not sufficient since a discharge has a RF component. RF grounding, shielding and bonding techniques must be applied to maximize protection to people. Gary C. has offered many months of reply comments on these techniques to readers of this group. Additional resources are: 1) IEEE Standard 587-1980, Surge Voltages in AC Power Circuits. 2) Roger Block, The Grounds for Lightning and EMP protection, Polyphaser Corp. 3) Richard Little, Designing Facilities for Lightning Protection, June 89 RF Design magazine. 4) The 1993 version of the NEC code. The Polyphaser guys are offering a tremendous amount of information for the ham community; much of it dispelling erroneous myths prevalent in our midsts. Keep up the effort Gary! Guy Hamblen, AA7QZ/2 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!gopher.cs.uofs.edu!triangle.cs.uofs.edu!bill From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 4 Aug 1995 11:27:03 GMT Organization: Department of Computing Sciences Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vt068$pig@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3u5u5r$q6k@usc.edu> <3uba16$j74@news.isc.rit.edu><3ur0f2$m5t@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <45@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <47@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <3v915b$4qc@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> <3vaub2$o6m@atheria.europa.com> <3vm785$g9c@hpbab.wv> NNTP-Posting-Host: triangle.cs.uofs.edu Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84320 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28883 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12571 In article <3vm785$g9c@hpbab.wv>, hanko@wv.mentorg.com (Hank Oredson) writes: |> |> You *are* a ham, right? |> |> Otherwise why would you take part in this discussion ... |> |> And you live right here in the Portland area, where it is almost |> impossible to put up a tower (or any other form of antenna) because |> of rules and regulations promulgated by bigots like yourself. |> |> Please go away and harass some other newsgroup. |> And you call him a bigot!! Non-hams own houses too. And a lot of them are very concerned with aesthetics and how they affect their property values. bill KB3YV ^^^^^ See, I got one. -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.uofs.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:11 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!xetron.com!news From: timh@xetron.com (Tim Huster) Subject: Re: Quadrifiler antenna Message-ID: Sender: news@xetron.com Nntp-Posting-Host: timh.xetron.com Organization: Xetron Corp. X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.11 References: <3vri0k$ct4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 12:05:40 GMT Lines: 15 "The Satellite Experimenter's Handbook" by Martin Davidoff K2UBC. $20 from the ARRL. pp 8-15 to 8-16. ISBN: 0-87259-004-6. In article <3vri0k$ct4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jkenny809@aol.com says... > >Does anyone know how to make this antenna or know where to find a good >explanation on how to make one properly? -- Timothy W. Huster timh@xetron.com kb8bnk@kc8tw.#cin.oh.usa.na "I like Daddy's car. It goes faster than Mommy's car!" Andrew H. age 3 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:12 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!DIALix!melbourne.DIALix.oz.au!not-for-mail From: binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au (Martin Deeley) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Cell Phone Antennas Date: 4 Aug 1995 14:06:01 +1000 Organization: DIALix Services, Melbourne, Australia. Lines: 11 Sender: binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vs6b9$jrm$1@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au> References: <3vmo3f$6qp@freenet.vcu.edu> towen@freenet.vcu.edu wrote: : Why are all car cell phone antennas center loaded. It seems : that all of these antennas have a coil and are thus center : loaded; is this correct? Are they using a ground plane? They're not loading coils, they're impedance transformers (or stubs if you like). the antennas are usually 5/8 over 1/4 colinear arrays. Mine is a higher gain model and has two coils cos its a 5/8 over 5/8 over 1/4. The "Ringo" 144mHz antennas are the same style but they use a stub instead. de G0OQC From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!col.hp.com!jwc From: jwc@col.hp.com (John Chapman) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Two Meter Intermod Cure - filter.txt (0/1) Date: 4 Aug 1995 14:55:25 GMT Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division Lines: 1 Message-ID: <3vtcct$hrt@nonews.col.hp.com> References: <3vk7b1$s72@tomcat.sasknet.sk.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: mssjwc.col.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: SSW1.POSTMSTR@TS3.teale.CA.GOV (Postmaster) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: DISTRIBUTION STATUS Date: 4 Aug 95 15:23:35 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu SMTP.HAMANT DISTRIBUTION STATUS INFORMATION 08/04/95 0 :20:00 ======================================================================= DISTRIBUTION ID: SMTP.HAMANT.5052 SUBJECT : Ham-Ant Digest V95 #330 DATE SENT : 08/04/95 TIME SENT: 08:20:00 ======================================================================= YOUR MAIL WAS NOT DELIVERED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASON: SNADS STATUS : 0401 EXPLANATION : INVALID DOCUMENT CLASS ======================================================================= RECIPIENT : DC.SYBOB RECIPIENT NAME : NATIVE NAME : From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!panix!news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!jbaltz From: jbaltz@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Jerry B Altzman) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 4 Aug 1995 15:38:11 GMT Organization: double ionizers association Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3vtet3$4ek@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3vj6k4$feb@atheria.europa.com> <3vm10l$bm@news.vcd.hp.com> <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84330 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28885 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12579 In article <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us>, Gary Coffman wrote: >to infringe. It by no means lists all rights. The Declaration of Independence >says our rights are endowed by our Creator, IE are natural rights, and are I wonder: what legal status does the DoI hold? I mean, can one win in court claiming that one's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness have been infringed? >Gary //jbaltz jerry b. altzman Entropy just isn't what it used to be +1 212 650 5617 jbaltz@columbia.edu jbaltz@sci.ccny.cuny.edu KE3ML (HEPNET) NEVIS::jbaltz From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.dal.mobil.com!usenet From: "Jake A. Hellbach" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Two Meter Intermod Cure - filter.txt (1/1) Date: 4 Aug 1995 16:28:29 GMT Organization: MEPTEC - Mobil Oil Corporation Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3vthrd$sl6@dlsn31.dal.mobil.com> References: <3vk7co$s72@tomcat.sasknet.sk.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: nolpc201.nol.mobil.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) I can't believe you are making us decode this just to see an ad to sell your filter. Thanks anyway but I think with this sales ploy I'll stay away. Jake KK5HYappld@mailhost.sasknet.sk.ca (Doug Appleton) wrote: >begin 644 filter.txt >M02!N97<@9FEL=&5R(&ES(&YO=R!A=F%I;&%B;&4@=&\@:&5L<"!S=7!PM From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!news From: Force Majeur Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 4 Aug 1995 17:01:59 GMT Organization: High Voltage Hobbyist Publications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3vtjq7$gh3@news.inc.net> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3vj6k4$feb@atheria.europa.com> <3vm10l$bm@news.vcd.hp.com> <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <3vtet3$4ek@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: will.rrgroup.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84333 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28887 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12581 jbaltz@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Jerry B Altzman) wrote: >In article <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us>, >Gary Coffman wrote: >>to infringe. It by no means lists all rights. The Declaration of Independence >>says our rights are endowed by our Creator, IE are natural rights, and are > >I wonder: what legal status does the DoI hold? None whatsoever. >I mean, can one win in court >claiming that one's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness have been infringed? No. The current government of the United States is founded on the Constitution, and is legally unrelated to any document preexisting the Constitution, including the Declaration of Independence. > >>Gary > >//jbaltz >jerry b. altzman Entropy just isn't what it used to be +1 212 650 5617 >jbaltz@columbia.edu jbaltz@sci.ccny.cuny.edu KE3ML (HEPNET) NEVIS::jbaltz -FM From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:17 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!elron2.elron.net!usenet From: ernie@netvision.net.il (Tsachy Lindenbaum) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Cushcraft AR270-10S 70 cm performance ? Date: 4 Aug 1995 17:14:35 GMT Organization: Your Organization Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3vtkhr$imc@elron2.elron.net> References: <3vossm$62h@elron2.elron.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts92p12.netvision.net.il Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.4 In article <3vossm$62h@elron2.elron.net>, atias@eldor.co.il says... > >Hi all, >Is any one has already some experience with this antenna, specially >with the 70 cm . >Can someone explain me the way it works without duplexer ? >Is there something unique in the matching ? >Thanks >David 4x4cg > Hi David I'm sorry but I can't help you. I don't think it's a duplexer problem - have you tried the UHF part only ? I just wanted you to know that I saw it. -- Good bye from: Tsachy Lindenbaum, P.O.B 21224 Tel-Aviv 62195, Israel 4Z4TL @ 4Z4AAA.ISR.MDLE 972-9-582959 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.gmi.edu!isclient.merit.edu!onramp.freeway.net!dave From: dave@freeway.net (Dave Wright) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 4 Aug 1995 17:15:47 GMT Organization: "Freeway (TM) - America's Public Information Network" Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3vtkk4$95u@onramp.freeway.net> References: <3v3432$sck@newshost.lanl.gov> <3v5lo4$i12@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vperf$m90@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: onramp.freeway.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #9 (NOV) cmoore@sedona.intel.com writes: >My concern is that some companies may have suffered loss of revenue >because of Mr. Sturba's incorrect quotations. Ever considered editing >his column for accuracy? If it was edited for accuracy, I think it would end up being to short. -- David Wright - N8IT dave@freeway.net From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 04 16:20:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 4 Aug 1995 17:16:59 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vtkmb$rc7@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vdrdh$74u@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vesft$bpj@newshost.lanl.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <3vesft$bpj@newshost.lanl.gov>, Gerald Schmitt wrote: >I don't think SGC can tolerate too much technical scrutiny. I called SGC and asked them how they justify their claims. Their advertising is based on the following shootout which they said they would be glad to see. Set up any mobile antenna system under 10 ft long before the testing begins. A "no hands" rule applies after the test begins. Run tests on every HF band keeping the "no hands" rule in effect for the duration of the tests. Average the tests for each configuration. They think the QMS system will win the shootout against a bugcatcher with a fixed tap. When they say, "Outperforms *any* other antenna system under 10 feet covering the full 1.8 to 30 MHz HF range", they are assuming the "no hands" rule. Just change bands while in motion and push the mike button. It appears they have not heard about the auto- tune screwdriver antennas which should win the above shootout. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (100% all my own fuzzy logic, not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!usenet.cis.ufl.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/8 wave vs. J-pole Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:48:18 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <3vmod6$6tq@freenet.vcu.edu> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: ssgreen@aerospace.aero.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:ssgreen-040895135010@greenberg-t.aero.org Lines: 10 Try ftp://oak.oakland.edu/pub/hamradio/mac/theory-and-morse/ I can't get it to respond today but I think there was one there. Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:09 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: 5/8 wave vs. J-pole Message-ID: <1995Aug6.145838.14816@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 14:58:38 GMT Lines: 29 In article Bill Harwood writes: > >Remember, a 5/8 wave antenna is just about a half wave electrically. >The 5/8 point is easier to match. i.e. A gamma type match as found on a >J pole vs a coil and capacitor arrangement at the 1/2 wave point. A 5/8 >performs very similar to a 1/2 wave. If you are over an "optional >ground plane and hoe you are spaced and decoupled from the ground plane >are interesting features. The Ringo Ranger is an interesting study in >5/8 .. 1/2 wave phased over a ground plane. To head off any possible misconceptions, a J-pole *is* a 1/2-wave radiator with a transmission line stub match (the J-hook) extending below it. The stub isn't part of the radiator, and isn't a gamma match. The aluminum dummy load, errr Ringo, is theoretically electrically the same as a J-pole, but physically coils the stub around its base instead of hanging it straight below the radiator. A 5/8-wave vertical radiator will have a lower angle of radiation than a 1/2-wave vertical over ground, and that can be useful for reaching your intended receiving target rather than warming birds. Remember, the horizon curves *down* below your line of sight, so it is rare to need antenna gain at an elevation above the horizon for terrestrial VHF operation. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: comunica@mvax1.red.cinvestav.MX (Benjamin Millan Garcia) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Antenna Spacing Date: 6 Aug 95 03:09:27 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 47 Message-ID: <199508060152.SAA13313@UCSD.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu >Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 22:12:34 +1000 >From: Stephen Shaw >Subject: Antenna Spacing > >Is there any simple formula to calculate the minimum seperation of two >VHF/ >UHF monopole/dipole antennas so that they will not interfere with each >other? > >------------------------------ Stephen, There are simple methods to calculate what you want. But the realiability is not as goods as the results given by more complex methods. These methods are known as propagation models, and as you could imagine, some ask you a lot of data, as for example: heights of antennas, powers, terrain irregularity, distance, frequency, topography, etc. But the simplest methods could give you an idea of the separation of the antennas working at the same frequency. The simplest of these models is known as free space transmision and it says that: Pr/Pt = GrGt(L/(4pid^2))^2 where Pr,t = (r)ecieved/(t)ransmitted power Gr,t = " " antenna gain power L = Wave length pi = 3.1415... d = distance between transmiter and receiver With this formula you could know the power in your receiver located at a distance d from the transmiter working at the frequency you are considering. In this way, you could know the saparation between the antennas knowing the powers of each system and a parameter known as Signal to Interference Ratio (SIR) which depends on your receiver mainly. So for example, if one of the receiver has a SIR of 10 dB, it says that if the power of the interfering signal is less than 10 times the power of the desired signal, it is going to work correctly. And what you have to calculate is the correct distance to give less than this power at the distance of the other antenna. There are other simple methods, and others are more complex that take into account refletion and difraction from obstacles (natural or made by man). Reflection and difraction are important fenomena in the frequencies you are working. I hope this give you an idea of what you want. Benjamin. comunica@mvax1.red.cinvestav.mx From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!news3.insinc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!usenet From: kmawji@Direct.CA (Karim Mawji) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: BEST EQUIPMENT FOR AM DXING Date: 7 Aug 1995 05:39:35 GMT Organization: Internet Direct Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4048un$5mg@grid.Direct.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.174.243.53 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ I've been thinking of getting into some am dxing. I live 300 miles north of Seattle, and someone told me that a GE superradio III along with 100 feet of wire strung 40 feet up in the air would allow me to get am channels from california as well as any other channels up to 1500 miles away. I was just wondering is this equipment very good or is there anything that is better. Also does anyone know of a company in Seattle or in Bellingham that carries the GE superradio? I am completely new to am dxing and would appreciate any information anyone could give me. I don't get a chance to read this usenet very often so perhaps someone could email me with some advice. Thanks Karim kmawji@direct.ca From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:12 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!globe.indirect.com!usenet From: Harold Lines Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 6 Aug 1995 07:28:15 GMT Organization: Internet Direct, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <401quf$554@globe.indirect.com> References: <3vm10l$bm@news.vcd.hp.com> <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <3vtet3$4ek@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3vtt94$8pj@ncar.ucar.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip179.indirect.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b4 (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84397 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28898 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12618 There's another thing to consider when you talk about CCRs, and that's the enforcement. When I bought my house here in Glendale, AZ (adjacent to Phoenix, 10 years ago), I had to sign a paper that kept me from installing outside antennas. The paper talked about a governing board in my development that would meet periodically and regulate what went on in the area. Well, of course, once the developers had sold all the houses, they took the money and ran away, and our development never did come up with a governing board. After I lived there for a couple of years, I put up an 80 meter dipole, and no one said anything. I put up a 2 meter Isopole a year later, and apart from one neighbor's question ("What is that thing, anyway?"), no one said anything. I could probably put up a tower and a tribander, if I wanted to, but I'm getting ready to move, so it's not worth the money. I'll move out into an area regulated by the County, where there are probably no CCRs (I hope). Of course, there's no way of telling how the CCRs will be enforced when you buy your house, but you might just luck into a situation like mine. Try putting up a couple of antennas and see if anyone says something. You might just be pleasantly surprised. - Harold KC7SZ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!ip102.phx.primenet.com!markem From: markem@primenet.com (Mark Monninger) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 20:33:29 MST Organization: Primenet Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3vm10l$bm@news.vcd.hp.com> <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <3vtet3$4ek@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3vtt94$8pj@ncar.ucar.edu> <401quf$554@globe.indirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip102.phx.primenet.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4] Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84443 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28903 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12635 In article <401quf$554@globe.indirect.com> Harold Lines writes: > ... >Of course, there's no way of telling how the CCRs will be enforced when >you buy your house, but you might just luck into a situation like mine. >Try putting up a couple of antennas and see if anyone says something. >You might just be pleasantly surprised. I live across town from Harold (in Gilbert, AZ) and I have a similar situation. There are CC&R's prohibiting the normal things but there was no enforcement written into them, no board or homeowner's association...only a civil suit and the loser pays all costs. There were several TV antennas in the neighborhood already so I put up my vertical on the roof. No one said anything. I now have three antennas up and a 8.5 ft TVRO dish. No one has said anything in 6 years so I figure I'm safe. At one time the mayor lived across the street, the town manager lived next door, and a couple town councilmen lived in the neighborhood, too. No one pays any attention to the CC&R's any more and, amazingly enough, the neighborhood has not gone to hell in a handbasket. Property values have steadily risen (could it be the LACK of CC&R enforcement? Perish the thought!) and houses put on the market sell faster than average. I don't know how the neighbors would feel about a nice tower & beam, but I don't have the money or real desire to have one anyway. On the other hand, most of the newer ticky-tacky developments in the area have the standard bull(chicken-?)shit CC&R's and gestapo HA's to go with them. I guess we just lucked out. 73... Mark AA7TA From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!swidir.switch.ch!newsfeed.ACO.net!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!pacifier!rvr From: rvr@pacifier.com (Ronald Ries) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: D3W Rotatable Dipole Date: 5 Aug 1995 03:23:55 GMT Organization: Pacifier, a public access Internet site. (360-693-0325) Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3vuo8b$sq1@news.pacifier.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacifier.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Anybody have experience or comments about the 12, 17, 30m rotatable dipole by Cushcraft. Seems like a compact solution for antenna restricted areas. Looking for performance observations xmitting and receiving. Thanks. Ron From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ka6a.ccsm.uiuc.edu!user From: jcoleman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Jim Coleman) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: D3W Rotatable Dipole Date: Sat, 05 Aug 1995 08:40:40 -0600 Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3vuo8b$sq1@news.pacifier.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ka6a.ccsm.uiuc.edu In article <3vuo8b$sq1@news.pacifier.com>, rvr@pacifier.com (Ronald Ries) wrote: > Anybody have experience or comments about the 12, 17, 30m rotatable > dipole by Cushcraft. Seems like a compact solution for antenna restricted > areas. > I used the D3W above a 10,15, 20 triband beam. Height about 55 ft. It worked very well and made me a fan of the rotatable dipole. The only reason I took it down (still have it actually) is that my 40m beam took some ice damage and I replaced it with Cushcraft's three element WARC beam. On the down side, a dipole is NOT a beam. On the up side, rotation definitely improves things over fixed dipoles. A dipole on the WARC bands is less of a handicap than a dipole on the conventional bands, simply because the traffic on the WARC bands is still less than on the others. You won't be sorry Jim, KA6A -- Jim jcoleman@uiuc.edu From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:55:11 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <3vdrdh$74u@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vesft$bpj@newshost.lanl.gov> <3vtkmb$rc7@chnews.ch.intel.com> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3vtkmb$rc7@chnews.ch.intel.com Lines: 12 To be fair, the text for the add was put together before the rash of screw driver antennas hit the market. The only thing for the no hands test that would lay a glove on them was an old home brew DK-3 (from the instructions) or one of the old hydraulic models from the 50s-60s. I like SGC but the claim for the QMS is about like all of the adds that Kurt N Sterba pings on every month. Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:57:13 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <3v3432$sck@newshost.lanl.gov> <3v5lo4$i12@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vperf$m90@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vtkk4$95u@onramp.freeway.net> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:3vtkk4$95u@onramp.freeway.net Lines: 10 Kurt is at least more accurate than most of the antenna adds you see even if he is far from perfect. Lets say he is 3 db better than a shopping cart and matbe better than a ladder. How is that? Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 5 Aug 1995 20:51:04 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <400ljo$s65@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3v3432$sck@newshost.lanl.gov> <3vperf$m90@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vtkk4$95u@onramp.freeway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , Bill Harwood wrote: >Kurt is at least more accurate than most of the antenna adds you see >even if he is far from perfect. Hi Bill, I never never meant to imply that his column is nearly as inaccurate as the antenna adds. It's just when one sets oneself up as near-perfect, one might expect the same judgement techniques one is using to be used to judge one's own work. You know, let he who is without sin cast the first stone... people in glass houses... etc. >Lets say he is 3 db better than a shopping cart and matbe better than a >ladder. How is that? Of course, he is doing more good than not. Just wish that his colunm was not 10% as outrageous as the adds he blasts. Of the 100% distance between the adds and Kurt's position, I am about 10% toward the center from Kurt. Hope that defines my position. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!DIALix!adelaide.DIALix.oz.au!not-for-mail From: rsilva@adelaide.DIALix.oz.au (Rob Silva) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 6 Aug 1995 17:14:35 +0930 Organization: DIALix Services, Adelaide, Australia. Lines: 44 Sender: rsilva@adelaide.DIALix.oz.au Message-ID: <401rt3$hi3$1@adelaide.DIALix.oz.au> References: <3vqqml$m7o@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rsilva@adelaide.dialix.oz.au cmoore@sedona.intel.com writes: >In article , wrote: >> writes: >>Some point in the spectrum. I thought we had to stay in the amateur bands. >Hi Armond, it occurred to me last night after my posting that you and >I could be suffering from language problems. Unfortunately, I learned >my English in Texas (some say they don't speak English in Texas :-) >I was speaking in the context of the HF amateur bands. Here's how their >claim could be true. Compare the QMS antenna system with a "conventional >9 ft whip" on 30m. Use my IC-725. I have no doubt that the QMS system >will radiate 20 dB more RF than the barefoot IC-725 because of foldback. >Admittedly, I am playing devil's advocate. I am not defending their claims. >I am demonstrating how they may be rationalizing their claims. >My native Japanese friends will never understand the difference between >"can" and "will". Compare the following two statements: >I can die tomorrow. Obviously true >I will die tomorrow. Probably false, hopefully I am mistaken. >SGS didn't say the QMS system "will" make a 20 dB difference. They >said it "can" make a 20 dB difference, given a certain set of >circumstances, which they enumerated. We all know that they exaggerated >the effects of the items they listed and it is not likely that all >the items would ever exist in unison. They may have meant to convey >the impression that the QMS system is 20 dB better, but they didn't >say it "will" improve things by 20 dB. I for one don't think they were being deliberately deceitful at all. Go back and look at the list of losses they enumerated. Clearly there are some exaggerations and it would be unlikely to get all of them in unison. Bear in mind, however, that all of the losses they list could be encountered in a conventional SG-230 + Whip installation. Perhaps they're just bagging their own product ;-) -- -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------ Rob Silva | The sooner you fall behind, the more | time you have to catch up rsilva@adelaide.DIALix.oz.au | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.pavilion.co.uk!usenet From: pgodbold@pavilion.co.uk (pgodbold) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EZNEC Date: 6 Aug 1995 22:15:36 GMT Organization: None Lines: 9 Message-ID: <403eu8$gu7@fitzherbert.pavilion.co.uk> References: <9507281458.0C4B60@democrat.iccy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: line04.kemp-du.pavilion.co.uk X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1 In article <9507281458.0C4B60@democrat.iccy.com>, jaydhall@everest.iccy.COM says: > >Can anyone tell me where to get this program? > >Jay D. Hall >WA6MOK >jaydhall@iccy.com > It's Available from Roy Lewelyn W7EL From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!news.paonline.com!paonline.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com Message-ID: <19950805.n64@paonline.com> Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:30:00 +0400 Subject: Re: Flexi-weave antenna w Organization: Pennsylvania Online! [uucp/slip/ppp/bbs/FTPHUB] X-Newsreader: TPCB 0.8 21100003 Lines: 18 Rk> Could you post some references on this? They should settle some Rk> arguments I've been in about this. Rk> Rick Karlquist N6RK Rk> rkarlqu@scd.hp.com Hi Rick: Sorry the books are at work and I'm on travel the next couple of weeks. The main one that comes to mind though is Radio Engineering by Frederick Terman. It describes just what you stated, that the current at RF is concentrated at the edges of a flat conductor, while it's spread over the entire surface of a round one. I can give you the exact page reference if you still want it when I'm back in the office. 73 Bill N6CQ@paonline.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!dobie.loop.com!news From: mjscanlan@loop.com (Michael J. Scanlan) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: FS: COMPACT TOWER & BEAM Date: Sat, 05 Aug 1995 14:38:26 GMT Organization: The Loop Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3vvvoc$7pv@dobie.loop.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pma12.loop.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99.82 For Sale: U.S. Tower Co. TMM-541SS compact crank up tower with mast, cable stand offs and brackets, etc. Extends to 41' plus 9' for the mast and retracts to 12' for low profile, neighbor pleasing operation. Excellent condition and has complete photo documentation of previous installation. All down and ready to go. $600; FOB Los Angeles, CA Cushcraft full size tri-band beam. Easily UPS-able to your QTH; in original box marked for quick reassembly. $275; FOB Los Angeles, CA 40 Meter add-on kit for above. $150; FOB Los Angeles, CA Ham II Rotor with control box & cable, FREE with purchase of tower & beam or $250, FOB Los Angeles. Further information available on request. "73" 13428 Maxella Ave., #347 Marina del Rey, CA 90292 (310) 397-1822; Pgr (310) 790-7140 A.R.S. WAØEPW/6 - Licensed since 1965 mjscanlan@loop.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!warp.cris.com!usenet From: PPICKENS@POP3.CRIS.COM Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 5 Aug 1995 14:47:48 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 12 Message-ID: <4000ak$amp@warp.cris.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crc3-fddi.cris.com Keywords: GAP ANTENNA X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) I am thinking about purchasing a GAP Titan DX 8 band antenna. I am currently using a G5RV for all my HF work. The G5RV doesn't tune very well on 30 meters but does quite well on all other bands. I noticed that the Titan DX does tune on 30 meters. My space is limited and I don't want have to run any ground radials, so I an thinking about the GAP. Does anyone have any experience with any of the GAP antennas? 73's Phil AD4WP From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:21 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!sysop From: Rick Lehman Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 6 Aug 1995 08:42:02 GMT Lines: 24 Message-ID: <401v8q$1iss@news.gate.net> References: <4000ak$amp@warp.cris.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dffl5-34.gate.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: PPICKENS@POP3.CRIS.COM I own a GAP vertical and use it on 80, 40 and rarely on 12 meters. I do not recall the model number of my GAP but it is 31 feet high and covers 80 through 2 meters(except 17 and 30 meters). It is admittedly in a poor location resting 10 feet from a six feet high chain link fence, 10 feet from a single story house and 30 feet from my tower and beam. There are 3 radials which were trimmed for 40 meter VSWR. The radial length does not affect 80 meter VSWR which is very good or the other bands. My results are as follows: 80 meters---Very poor. I no longer transmit on this band it is too frustrating. The antenna VSWR is very good, just like a dummy load. 40 meters-- Good. Has served me well on this band. 12 meters-- Fair. Worked OK. Seemed to not work as well when compared to another local ham working the same station as I. He was using a wire antenna. My antenna model absolutely must be guyed( epecially if you get any thunderstorms) a disappointment for me as I was under the understanding that it was not an absolute requirement.I believe the Titan antenna was designed for operation on the lower bands(e.g. 80 meters) and therefore may work considerably better than mine. Good luck , 73 Rick WB4EJC From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!interramp.com!usenet From: Grant H Youngman Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 7 Aug 1995 03:14:20 GMT Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link Lines: 33 Message-ID: <4040ec$7lt@usenet1.interramp.com> References: <4000ak$amp@warp.cris.com> <401v8q$1iss@news.gate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip121.ft.worth.tx.interramp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b4 (Windows; I; 16bit) You're talking about the Challenger VIII. Your observations match mine pretty well -- especially on guying and 80 meter performance. The Titan isn't going to be a very good 80 meter antenna either, presuming GAP uses the same tuning method they use in the GAP. I have blown several (one just yesterday) "top cap" assemblies on 80 meters. It just won't handle a legal limit load reliably, even at 1:1 SWR. GAP keeps sending me free top cap assemblies, but it is just more hassle to pull the antenna down to replace them than the antenna is worth. The antenna is tuned on 80 meters with a coax stub terminated in a couple of 1000V mica caps. They can't hack it, and will arc through. Grant/NQ5T > >80 meters---Very poor. I no longer transmit on this band it is too >frustrating. The antenna VSWR is very good, just like a dummy load. > >40 meters-- Good. Has served me well on this band. > >12 meters-- Fair. Worked OK. Seemed to not work as well when compared >to another local ham working the same station as I. He was using a wire >antenna. > >My antenna model absolutely must be guyed( epecially if you get any >thunderstorms) a disappointment for me as I was under the understanding >that it was not an absolute requirement.I believe the Titan antenna was >designed for operation on the lower bands(e.g. 80 meters) and therefore >may work considerably better than mine. Good luck , 73 Rick WB4EJC > From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ip.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ground rods Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 01:18:40 GMT Message-ID: <388628881-950803181840@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 22 -> -> On a related note, the normal "installation" method seems to be poun -> the rods into the ground with a sledge, but the last time I did this -> refused to go any further than 6', in an area not noted for being ro -> -> I recently saw a TV clip (This Old House??) where they were installi -> ground rods with a heavy duty electric drill. Has anyone tried this? -> Yes, I have indeed tried this and it works great! Actually, the drill is a rotohammer and just looks like a drill. Some of them send a powerful vibration down a ground rod and push it right through whatever might be in the way. Drills designed for using carbide concrete bits work too. I have also used electric jack hammers and these have worked better than anything I have ever tried. You can rent them for about $25 to $35 dollars a day and if you have alot of rods to install, this is a cheap way to go, if'n your time is worth anything. Jim RACEBBS - QWK Internet Gateway - 520.669.9225 From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news3.insinc.net!news.globalx.net!usenet From: "Steve P." Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ground rods Date: 5 Aug 1995 16:43:33 GMT Organization: HOME CONTROLS & SYSTEMS Lines: 58 Message-ID: <40073l$cdj@news.globalx.net> References: <58926143-950801204758@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cn.globalx.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) wrote: >-> >-> jcoleman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Jim Coleman) writes: >-> >-> > Unless the flexibility of braid is absolutely necessary, you can us >-> > copper water tubing as a ground connection. It's available in vario >-> > sizes at all home supply stores. I use it on my tower legs. You fla >-> > one end and make a good mechanical connection (like a bolt through >-> > drilled hole). Then you follow it up with silver solder and a propa >-> > torch. Easy to do and has maintained its integrity for more than 8 >-> > years... >-> >-> Grounding connections should NEVER be soldered. The heat generated by >-> strike will melt your solder and there goes the connection. ONLY use >-> mechical connections in ground systems! > >Come on now! A good silver soldered connection, if done correctly >is a darn good, low resistance connection. The copper would have >to glow red before that solder would let go. I would guess brazing >is about the best connection as it would blend the metals better >than just about anything. >Most companies in the business of grounding are cad welding the >connections and staying completely away from any mechanical connections >what-so-ever. >Anyway, if one were to take a direct strike, a 1/4" copper wire is >going to be destroyed in microseconds no matter what type of connection >is on it. >All we can do is minimize the effects of a direct hit. If you are >grounding for lightning protection, you are messing with mother nature >and a 2"thick ground buss might not be big enough. > >Jim Wooddell >WA6OFT > >RACEBBS - QWK Internet Gateway - 520.669.9225 > This subject is certainly open to hysteria. Lightning is not that energetic. Amps may range from 5k to 30k amps, typically 10k but the duration is a few microseconds to a few dozen microseconds, possibly repeated a few times. Calculate the ohmic heat then consider the duration (actual energy). Good connections are obviously mandatory. GE and others who design and install commercial microwave and repeater sites publish good guidebooks on how to render sites lightning proof. One of the big secrets is to have everything "rise and fall" together voltage wise, avoiding voltage DIFFERENCES between equipments. Ground the tower, then ground the antenna to the tower. Put inductive loops in the transmission line etc. etc. etc. Commonalise the tower grouns with the power ground AT THE GROUND POINT. The best ground (for we rural dwellers) is a well casing. Avoid lip-service manuals. Well that's two cents... -- Steve P... steventp@globalx.net 45 17'N, 76 09'W. Aim Carefully _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _ ___ _ ___ ___ _ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!cencore!forrest.gehrke Distribution: world Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Heights tower - info want From: forrest.gehrke@cencore.com (Forrest Gehrke) Message-ID: <6e.507.719@cencore.com> References: <3vl6ad$ss9@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 Aug 1995 16:28:00 -0500 Organization: Central Core BBS 201.575.8991 Lines: 16 FZ> I am considering erecting a Heights self-supporting tower and would FZ> like to hear from anyone who has had any experience with them, FZ> especially with the fold-over kit...Please email or call me at FZ> 214-233-2386 (Dallas). Thanks, FZ If you plan this tower to be unguyed consider very carefully the worst case wind load of your antenna *and* tower. Compare that with the tower rating and add at least 50% safety factor. Aluminum is subject to fatigue cracking and it gets plenty to be fatiged about if your location is noted for gusty winds. --k2bt * RM 1.3 02583 * Skeptics are seldom deceived. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!clyde.open.ac.uk!adminmbx From: "Fraser Robertson (G4BJM)" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Help G5MH (?) Minibeam Date: 3 Aug 1995 08:31:14 GMT Organization: Open University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3vq1gi$2jm@clyde.open.ac.uk> References: <3v8f7c$9uc@mn5.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: adder.open.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) To: hansd@algonet.se Hi Hans, it's G4MH, not G5!! They are still available, address as follows: The Amateur Radio Shop G4MH 2/4 Cross Church Street Huddersfield West Yorks HD1 2PT England Tel: 01484 420774 G4MH's name is Jim Fish. Good luck/73 Fraser G4BJM From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!usenet From: jbmitch@vt.edu (jbmitch) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: HF Mobile - RD Grounding Observation Date: 5 Aug 1995 18:42:52 GMT Organization: Virginia Tech/Blacksburg Electronic Village Lines: 23 Message-ID: <400e3c$kum@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: jbmitch.beva.blacksburg.va.us X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1 Hi Mobileers! Just some quick observations on a problem and solution (I hope) that came up during my HF Mobile installation. My full size Dodge PU experienced RFI to vehicle electronics and "hot" metal surfaces, especially rig knobs, after completing what I thought was proper installation of 500 W/Bugcatcher combo. Here's what I found... The antenna was well grounded to chassis through the bumper mount. The rig/amp were grounded to the cab. Upon investigation, I found the cab was mounted to the chassis through humongous rubber doughnut washers (to improve ride/noise level) which acted as insulators. RF ground return path was therefore thru whatever path was available -- linkages, cable harnesses, you name it. Addressed problem thru ground strapping underside of cab to main chassis. The result is no discernable RFI (so far) and no RF to mention in the cab. Also the antenna seems to dip smoother on the auto swr meter (textbook sine curve either side around 1:1) indicating hi-er Q. This points up to me the necessity of good grounding throughout the vehicle; I plan to strap other points which may not make a good RF connection, such as the hood, in the near future. This is just posted FYI, but, although this should be obvious, some may not have considered it. The five page Technical Service Bulletin which Dodge puts out doesn't mention this problem (otherwise excellent TSB). Buying a new computer for the truck would not be fun! 73, all - - John From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:30 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: HF Mobile - RD Grounding Observation Message-ID: <1995Aug6.143752.14610@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <400e3c$kum@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 14:37:52 GMT Lines: 66 In article <400e3c$kum@solaris.cc.vt.edu> jbmitch@vt.edu (jbmitch) writes: >The antenna was well grounded to chassis through the bumper mount. The >rig/amp were grounded to the cab. Upon investigation, I found the cab was >mounted to the chassis through humongous rubber doughnut washers (to >improve ride/noise level) which acted as insulators. RF ground return >path was therefore thru whatever path was available -- linkages, cable >harnesses, you name it. Addressed problem thru ground strapping underside >of cab to main chassis. The result is no discernable RFI (so far) and >no RF to mention in the cab. Also the antenna seems to dip smoother on >the auto swr meter (textbook sine curve either side around 1:1) indicating >hi-er Q. This points up to me the necessity of good grounding throughout >the vehicle; I plan to strap other points which may not make a good RF >connection, such as the hood, in the near future. Yes!!!! This was a well known technique years ago, but is often overlooked by today's unibody driving, glass mount using, amateurs. Both my Jeeps needed *extensive* body bonding work to serve as ground return for my equipment and groundplane for my antennas. Making sure all body parts have a good DC and RF bond will virtually eliminate RFI both to and from the vehicle systems. Note: Jeeps are particularly notorious for poor electrical bonding since the parts are painted before assembly. That practice has been adopted by other manufacturers now for improved corrosion protection, but it plays hell with good electrical continuity. Any system that uses the body/chassis for return currents is begging to form a ground loop across the various impedances at the body/chassis joining points. Use short heavy straps, and make sure you make good electrical contact at each end. Bolts with ordinary washers aren't usually sufficient. Sand paint off joins, or use *aggressive* star washers under the bolts. I use NoAlOx (or similar) as a dissimilar metal protectant in the connections, and give the finished bond a shot of cold galvanizing spray to restore some of the corrosion resistance lost from the removed paint. If you follow good VHF RF practice, you'll join every seam once at least every 5 cm along the seam, or you won't really have a good RF bond. That's overkill for HF, but large panels should have more than a single RF bond. Hoods and doors are particular problems since they have to open and close. The hinges should be jumped with flexible copper strap, the latches should have good bare metal to metal contact, and if you want to get extreme, you can use continuous finger stock along the seams, or at least pieces of finger stock every foot or so along the seam. For hoods, I'd recomend at least a couple inches of fingerstock at the front corners in addition to jumpering the hinges at the rear. Don't forget the internal vehicle grounds either. Make sure the engine block is well grounded to the frame, and any electrical common points elsewhere in the vehicle are too, especially under the dash. Engine accessories, like AC units and alternators, need to be checked too. If their brackets are well painted, every time the AC clutch engages you'll have a noise spike, and alternator whine will be much higher than is tolerable. I even had to sand paint from the horn mounting bracket to get reliable horn operation. Don't forget to double check fuel tank grounds to help reduce fuel pump noise, and ground the exhaust system at *both* ends. It's normally rubber isolated, and makes a dandy HF radiating element. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.magg.net!news From: "Terrence R. Redding" Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Looking for Crankup/foldover 50 to 70 tower Date: 6 Aug 1995 20:08:45 GMT Organization: M.A.G. Information Services (MAGG.NET) Lines: 5 Message-ID: <4037gd$ei7@grumpy.magg.net> References: <3vj2gh$o4p@news.compulink.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: wpb-105.magg.net Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.shortwave:56626 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12625 I am looking for a crankup tower, 50 to 70 feet. If you know of a used one for sale please call me at 407 659-6062 (night) and 407 835-4446 (day). Thanks, 73 Terry From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!i-2000.com!usenet From: daved@i-2000.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: looking for plans: CB base antenna Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 21:51:52 GMT Organization: I-2000 Inc. - Internet Services Lines: 6 Message-ID: <40330m$15v@i-2000.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: riverhead1.access1.dh.i-2000.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 My young nephew got an old 23 channel CB and power supply at a yard sale. He is looking for an antenna but his funds are limited. Does anyone have, or know where I can get plans for a simple ground plane? Construction from copper pipe or tensioned wire is what I am thinking of. I think he would enjoy making the antenna more than saving to buy one. Any suggestions appreciated. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!news.funet.fi!mordred.cc.jyu.fi!kajami From: kajami@tarzan.math.jyu.fi (Jani 'Dii' Kanala) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Looking to buy TS-850SAT Date: 5 Aug 1995 02:06:39 GMT Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3vujnf$sgb@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: tarzan.math.jyu.fi X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I'm looking to buy Kenwood TS-850SAT... If anyone is selling this let me know fast since I'll be going back to Finland in 5 days.. Thanks in advance. 73...OH6LJN PS. my email is in Finland, but I'm currently staying in Indiana. -- regards, Jani From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!news.funet.fi!mordred.cc.jyu.fi!kajami From: kajami@tarzan.math.jyu.fi (Jani 'Dii' Kanala) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Looking to buy TS-850SAT Date: 5 Aug 1995 02:09:05 GMT Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3vujs1$sgn@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> References: <3vujnf$sgb@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: tarzan.math.jyu.fi X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sorry everyone, I posted this to wrong newsgroup... -- regards, Jani From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:33 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!fonorola!news.compulink.com!abyss!lethe!gts!westonia!ppp-4 From: joe@westonia.com (Joseph Cooper) Subject: Loop Receiving Antenna for 80/160 Message-ID: Sender: news@westonia.com Nntp-Posting-Host: ppp-4.ppp.westonia.com Organization: Westonia X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 23:47:02 GMT Lines: 16 Would anyone have some information (particularly the proper formula) for loop antenna's for 80/160m (or for BC and VLF receiving for that matter), I've read various books, such as the ARRL material, as well as others, but they seem to be making a number of assumptions about the readers background knowledge that does not help. What I would like to be able to do is order a set of Ferrite rods from Amidon, and be able to work out the proper number of turns for a particular wire size, and then optimize this with the proper tunable capacitor. Any suggestions (old magazine articles in particular if they are available). Thanks and 73 Joe VE3FMQ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!newsfeed.tip.net!usenet From: hermod@sds.se (Hermod Pedersen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Loop Receiving Antenna for 80/160 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 21:52:03 GMT Organization: Sydsvenska Dagbladet, Malmo, Sweden Lines: 30 Message-ID: <403do3$n84@stella.tip.net> References: Reply-To: hermod@sds.se NNTP-Posting-Host: a3119.dial.tip.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 joe@westonia.com (Joseph Cooper) wrote: >I've read various books, such as the ARRL material, as well as others, but >they seem to be making a number of assumptions about the readers background >knowledge that does not help. >What I would like to be able to do is order a set of Ferrite rods from Amidon, >and be able to work out the proper number of turns for a particular wire size, >and then optimize this with the proper tunable capacitor. NNTP-Posting-Host: per-du2-2.opennet.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.2 I am interested in building a antenna for my Marine Radio VHF Australian. On the frequency 157Mhz It is for a Home base setup and size and space are not a problem. A 5/8 ground plane perhaps? Any advise and ideas would be appreciated. ps: I need real measurements Regards Brent Western Australia. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!news.bu.edu!news3.near.net!news2.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!southwind.net!onyx!troy From: troy@onyx.southwind.net (Troy Majors) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 7 Aug 1995 15:26:23 GMT Organization: SouthWind Internet Access, Inc. Lines: 4 Message-ID: <405bav$aac@opal.southwind.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: onyx.southwind.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] -- From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!news.bu.edu!news3.near.net!news2.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!southwind.net!onyx!troy From: troy@onyx.southwind.net (Troy Majors) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 7 Aug 1995 15:29:18 GMT Organization: SouthWind Internet Access, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: onyx.southwind.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Still looking for a copy of the book by Walt Maxwell REFLECTIONS: TRANSMISSION LINES AND ANTENNAS. ARRL is sold out. Anyone have an extra copy they want to sell? 73 Troy WI0R troy@southwind.net -- From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: MJF-941B Antenna Matching Unit - Help Date: 5 Aug 1995 20:26:47 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <400k67$qv8@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vu5gs$66q@owl.nstn.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <3vu5gs$66q@owl.nstn.ca>, Bryan Weaver wrote: >Interestingly enough, when I connect to the balanced line connectors, the >receive sigs are very weak, regardless of the inductance & cap's setting on >the MJF. But it seems to work fine when I use any of the coax inputs. Hi Bryan, the baluns in any of the 300w MFJ tuners are designed to work only into close to resistive loads, which yours is not. IMO, the single component you can add to your system to get it to work is a 4:1 balun like the Amidon HBHT200 rated at "10kw". The tiny balun in your MFJ- 941 is probably saturating and could even be damaged. There's a possible jumper on the back from "balanced line" to "wire" that should be removed if it exists. Even with a huskier balun, you may need to vary the length of the ladder-line (doesn't change SWR but does change impedance). It actually does change the "measured" SWR on the tuner meter. The ideal solution would be some sort of balanced tuner but I don't know of any reasonably priced commercially available units. I personally use a 300w MFJ with the Amidon HBHT200 balun and it works very well. 73 and good luck, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:40 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!mkeitz From: mkeitz@bev.net (Mike Keitz) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: MJF-941B Antenna Matching Unit - Help Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 21:29:07 GMT Organization: TSE Systems Lines: 62 Message-ID: <400nrp$t4f@solaris.cc.vt.edu> References: <3vu5gs$66q@owl.nstn.ca> <400k67$qv8@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mkeitz.beve.blacksburg.va.us X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 In article <400k67$qv8@chnews.ch.intel.com>, cmoore@sedona.intel.com wrote: >In article <3vu5gs$66q@owl.nstn.ca>, Bryan Weaver wrote: > >>Interestingly enough, when I connect to the balanced line connectors, the >>receive sigs are very weak, regardless of the inductance & cap's setting on >>the MJF. But it seems to work fine when I use any of the coax inputs. > >Hi Bryan, the baluns in any of the 300w MFJ tuners are designed to work >only into close to resistive loads, which yours is not. IMO, the single >component you can add to your system to get it to work is a 4:1 balun >like the Amidon HBHT200 rated at "10kw". The tiny balun in your MFJ- >941 is probably saturating and could even be damaged. There's a possible >jumper on the back from "balanced line" to "wire" that should be removed >if it exists. No, the jumper probably needs to be there, and not having it is the cause of the problem you are having. On the MFJ-949D anyway (the 941 may be built differently, and I could be off-base about it), when you turn the selector to "Bal. Line / Wire," the output of the tuner is connected only to the "Wire" post on the back. Therefore if you don't have the jumper in place, nothing is going to get to your balanced feedline other than what couples through the air inbetween the posts. The balun is simply a rather wimpy center-tapped bifilar wound toroid autotransformer with the ends of the transformer connected to the two "Balanced Line" posts and the center tap to ground. This is the classic "4:1 Balun" shown in the ARRL Handbook. There is no other input to it, the balun is connected only to the two posts and ground. So you need to make the connection externally, shown with a dotted line on the back panel, if you intend to use a balanced line. I would tend to agree with Cecil that a more optimum installation for transmitting more than QRP levels involves an external balun with more capacity. But the stock one should work OK for receiving (saturation not a problem). The fact that adjusting the tuner does nothing at all indicates that you are probably working with almost no coupling to the antenna, just leakage into the radio and wiring (almost as if there were no antenna at all). You may want to open your unit up and look at the balun to see if it is indeed connected as I described, and that it isn't obviously burned out. Even with a huskier balun, you may need to vary the length >of the ladder-line (doesn't change SWR but does change impedance). It >actually does change the "measured" SWR on the tuner meter. > The second sentence sounds like folklore to me. It is important to remember that the SWR meter in the tuner is located before the tuning network, not after it. So you can always adjust the tuner to vary the impedance seen by the transmitter and the SWR meter to 50 ohms (low SWR), regardless of what is connected to the antenna port (within reason of course). That's why you use a tuner in the first place, right? But with an imperfect balun, some antenna/feedline impedances will work better than others, and you may get less loss in the balun and tuner components (thus more power at the antenna feedpoint) if the impedance at the tuner end of the feedline ends up reasonably near what the tuner is built for. Changing the length of the feedline could do that, but I'm not sure if watching the measured SWR before the tuner will give any insight into what is best. Adjusting the impedance by changing the length of the line is of course frequency-dependent, so it may not be optimum on more than one band. -Mike KD4QDM From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:41 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ip.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: MJF-941B Antenna Matching Unit - Help Date: Sat, 05 Aug 1995 13:57:41 GMT Message-ID: <285554042-950805065741@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 29 -> From: nstn4279@fox.nstn.ca (Bryan Weaver) -> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna -> -> heart grow fonder?). I've misplaced the instruction for my MJF-941B a -> matching unit. I wonder if anyone here would care to post or email me -> proper technique of matching. (I'm using a 'G5RV' ant up about 50', f -> 400 ohm ladder line.) After I tume up the rig into a dummy load and s -> over to my antenna, I can't seem to get the MJF unit to give me a mat -> -> Interestingly enough, when I connect to the balanced line connectors, -> receive sigs are very weak, regardless of the inductance & cap's sett -> the MJF. But it seems to work fine when I use any of the coax inputs. -> -> Thanks for any help! -> -> Bryan, VE3TRJ I have not used my 941E with wire line, however I find it easy to tune by setting my rig to am or fm and clicking the inductor selector for the highest s-meter reading, and then adjust the transmitter and antenna knobs for a peak reading, then I transmit and fine tune the antenna and transmitter knobs. If your antenna is way out of wack, or you have something wrong, it wont work and the 941's burn up really fast. If your signals are way down, switch to by-pass and if they are still down, you have antenna problems. Jim jim.w@racebbs.com jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:42 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ip.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: MJF-941B Antenna Matching Unit - Help Date: Sat, 05 Aug 1995 13:57:41 GMT Message-ID: <1948565710-950805065741@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 29 -> From: nstn4279@fox.nstn.ca (Bryan Weaver) -> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna -> -> heart grow fonder?). I've misplaced the instruction for my MJF-941B a -> matching unit. I wonder if anyone here would care to post or email me -> proper technique of matching. (I'm using a 'G5RV' ant up about 50', f -> 400 ohm ladder line.) After I tume up the rig into a dummy load and s -> over to my antenna, I can't seem to get the MJF unit to give me a mat -> -> Interestingly enough, when I connect to the balanced line connectors, -> receive sigs are very weak, regardless of the inductance & cap's sett -> the MJF. But it seems to work fine when I use any of the coax inputs. -> -> Thanks for any help! -> -> Bryan, VE3TRJ I have not used my 941E with wire line, however I find it easy to tune by setting my rig to am or fm and clicking the inductor selector for the highest s-meter reading, and then adjust the transmitter and antenna knobs for a peak reading, then I transmit and fine tune the antenna and transmitter knobs. If your antenna is way out of wack, or you have something wrong, it wont work and the 941's burn up really fast. If your signals are way down, switch to by-pass and if they are still down, you have antenna problems. Jim jim.w@racebbs.com jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: MJF-941B Antenna Matching Unit - Help Date: 6 Aug 1995 00:07:18 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 35 Distribution: world Message-ID: <40113m$8oa@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vu5gs$66q@owl.nstn.ca> <400k67$qv8@chnews.ch.intel.com> <400nrp$t4f@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <400nrp$t4f@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, Mike Keitz wrote: >In article <400k67$qv8@chnews.ch.intel.com>, cmoore@sedona.intel.com wrote: >>There's a possible jumper on the back from "balanced line" to "wire" >>that should be removed if it exists. >No, the jumper probably needs to be there, and not having it is the cause >of the problem you are having. I probably wasn't clear. If he chooses to go with an external balun, as I recommended, then he needs to remove the jumper. > Even with a huskier balun, you may need to vary the length >>of the ladder-line (doesn't change SWR but does change impedance). It >>actually does change the "measured" SWR on the tuner meter. >The second sentence sounds like folklore to me. I probably wasn't clear again. Assuming the tuner goes through 50 ohm coax to the external balun and then into the ladder-line, he can get some relative idea about what SWR the tuner is seeing by switching to "coax direct" and looking at the SWR meter. With the tuner reactive components thus switched out of the circuit, he can vary the SWR the tuner is seeing by varying the length of the ladder-line. It's not folklore. That's exactly the way I trim my ladder-line to some impedance that the tuner can handle. I have found by trial and error that if my tuner sees an SWR of less than 8:1 in the "coax direct" position it will usually match whatever it is seeing. The SWR on the ladder-line does not change when the length is trimmed. The impedance the tuner sees does change when the length is trimmed and the SWR reported by the 50 ohm SWR meter does change when the length is trimmed... scout's honor. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: steve6920@aol.com (Steve6920) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Scanner discone/RG-8 cable question Date: 6 Aug 1995 20:53:28 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 20 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <403o68$a1r@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: steve6920@aol.com (Steve6920) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Hi Steve, Your are losing most of your signals in the coax between the antenna and the scanner. Here are the figures (I used the table found in the Radio Shack catalog for reference): 100Mhz 400Mhz RG-58 3.375db 7.5db RG-8 1.425db 3.075db These figures are for your 75 foot run. A rule of thumb is you lose half your signal for every 3 db of loss. At 100Mhz you will only have about half the signal strength at the receiver that you had at the output of your antenna. At 400MHz, you will only have about 1/4th the signal left by the time it reaches your scanner. Antenna height is important, but you have to get the signals to the receiver as well. I would change your cable first and see what you get. You could use a 100 feet of RG-8 and then would have additional cable if you wanted to raise the antenna. Also please note the cable loss increases significantly as the frequency goes up, so if you are listening to trunking frequencies (800MHz) you will have hardly any signal at all with the RG-58. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!tonto-slip13.cis.brown.edu!user From: ap201002 (Steven Thompson) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Scanner discone/RG-8 cable question Date: 6 Aug 1995 23:40:42 GMT Organization: Brown University -- Providence, Rhode Island USA Lines: 9 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: tonto-slip13.cis.brown.edu I am currently re-doing by scanner base set-up I have a bearcat 350A and a Radio Shack pro-26 hooked up to a discone antenna. The antenna is seven feet off my roof in a residential area, I have 75 feet of RG-58 cable connecting it to my scanners. What is my biggest problem as far as signal loss is it the cable or the height of my antenna? Would RG-8 cable make a difference here? Any suggestions you could give would be a greatly appreciated. Steve Thompson From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news3.insinc.net!news.globalx.net!usenet From: "Steve P." Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Tubes Date: 5 Aug 1995 16:51:18 GMT Organization: HOME CONTROLS & SYSTEMS Lines: 13 Message-ID: <4007i6$cdj@news.globalx.net> References: <3vr825$kfe@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cn.globalx.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Jim_pestell@mindlink.bc.ca (jim pestell) wrote: >Any one have a good sorce or tubes? >I need a 6bv8 as will as others for my old tube rigs > Lots o' LUCK !!! I used mine for target practice with the kids about 15 years ago. -- Steve P... steventp@globalx.net 45 17'N, 76 09'W. Aim Carefully ...* . ...** *.* . **. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:45 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!pacbell.com!amdahl.com!juts.ccc.amdahl.com!Amdahl From: bgn00@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Bill.Nadzam) Subject: Re: Tubes Message-ID: <400mst$fps_001@ccc.amdahl.com> Sender: netnews@ccc.amdahl.com (UTS Tech Support) Organization: spg.amdahl.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 References: <3vr825$kfe@fountain.mindlink.net> <4007i6$cdj@news.globalx.net> Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 21:13:01 GMT Lines: 11 I have been getting my tubes from "QUEST Electronics" they list 6BV8 for 4.85 New and used for 3.71... Same Day shipping on most orders. check them out. 303-274-7545 ------------------------------------------------ Name: Bill.Nadzam E-mail: bgn00@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Bill.Nadzam) ------------------------------------------------ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 07 15:03:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!info.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ratatosk.yggdrasil.com!nntp-sc.barrnet.net!news.fujitsu.com!amdahl.com!amd!netcomsv!uucp3.netcom.com!tksbbs!stephen.king From: stephen.king@kandy.com (STEPHEN KING) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: tubes Message-ID: <8AE9294.09EF001679.uuout@kandy.com> Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 11:00:00 -0800 Distribution: world Organization: The Kandy Shack BBS/Garden Grove, CA/+1-714-636-2667 Reply-To: stephen.king@kandy.com (STEPHEN KING) References: <3vr82a$kfe@fountain.mindlink.net> X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.22 X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.20 Lines: 12 JN>I have older rigs and need tubes , has any one got a good sorce?? Here's the address of a vendor out here in CA. JIMMIE L. HAWKINS 11777 Foothill Blvd. #A-3 Lakeview Terrace, CA 91342 (818) 896-2838 (818 896-2919 FAX --- þ QMPro 1.53 þ stephen_king@bbs.fullcoll.edu From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: COMUNICA@mvax1.red.cinvestav.MX (ESTUDIANTES DE COMUNICACIONES) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: (none) Date: 8 Aug 95 04:36:00 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 2 Message-ID: <199508080438.VAA07393@UCSD.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu Subscribe From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!prodigy.com!usenet From: BDCX79B@prodigy.com (Daniel Bersak) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: *Stealth Operating* Date: 9 Aug 1995 01:27:03 GMT Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY Lines: 9 Distribution: world Message-ID: <4092t7$2bl6@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: inugap4.news.prodigy.com X-Newsreader: Version 1.2 My family was recently forced to relocate. we moved into a very nice house that my mother designed and built. She is now denying me access to the roof and the back yard as far as antennas go. Does anyone have any tips as to how to operate high power DX stealthily without frying myself?? ????? KA1ZUF From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:17 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.encore.com!psoper From: psoper@encore.com (Pete Soper) Subject: 1/4 wave match questions Organization: Encore Computer Corporation Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:06:13 GMT Message-ID: Sender: news@encore.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: sysgem1.encore.com Lines: 42 I've made a custom two element diamond loop with elements cut for a 14.2mhz target frequency and a 1/4 wave piece of RG11 as a matching section. The velocity factor of the (foam) RG11 was in doubt, so I assumed the 80% value rather than 78%, erring on the side of a longer piece that could be trimmed. The loop is close to exactly square, fed from the bottom corner which is 25-30 feet above the ground, the top corner being 50-55 feet up. (It will eventually be 10 feet higher) After the RG11 is 120 feet of RG8X feedline. Finally, this antenna has four booms at the corners rather than a center boom and spreaders, in case that might have any bearing on anything. The SWR comes out to 1.4 at 14.176mhz dipping down to 1.15 at 14.347mhz. That is, the "center" is 150khz or more above my target. My question is whether this indicates the antenna driven element is simply too short, the 1/4 wave section is too long (or short!) or some other tuning parameter needs adjustment next. I have no instruments except the SWR meter of the tuner. If it wasn't for the matching section I'd add 1% to the driven element length as the next step before focusing on the front to back ratio. But I'm uncertain how the matching transformer being too long or short interacts with the SWR across frequency. Also, I'm considering eventually replacing the RG11 and most of the RG8X with 75 ohm twin lead, using an odd number of quarter wavelengths to a point near the house, then finishing off with regular coax. So the matching section would also be the majority of the feed to the station. Am I likely to get this matched properly over the course of seven quarter wave lengths, or might small differences in velocity factor gang up on me and present a problem? Is the length non-critical or should I borrow an instrument to have any chance of getting the length correct? Finally I wonder if moisture on the twinlead will change the velocity factor, presumably corrupting the match and make this whole idea a very bad one? Thanks very much in advance for any light you can shed on this subject. I hope to have this little popgun tuned and pointed at Europe in time for the WAE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete Soper KS4XG (psoper@encore.com) 919 481 3730/voice 919 481 3868/FAX Encore Computer Corp 901 Kildaire Farm Rd Cary, NC 27511 USA "5 months a Ham" From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:18 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!hydra.carleton.ca!im From: im@hydra.carleton.ca (Ian McEachern VE3PFH) Subject: Re: 5/8 wave vs. J-pole X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hydra.carleton.ca Message-ID: Sender: news@cunews.carleton.ca (News Administrator) Organization: Carleton University X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <1995Aug6.145838.14816@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:22:30 GMT Lines: 15 Gary Coffman (gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us) wrote: : intended receiving target rather than warming birds. Remember, the horizon : curves *down* below your line of sight, so it is rare to need antenna : gain at an elevation above the horizon for terrestrial VHF operation. Unless you live in the mountains in the west of course:-) im -- Ian A. McEachern, VE3PFH | Try our new www server: Packet Working Group, Ottawa A.R.C. | http://hydra.carleton.ca/ im@hydra.carleton.ca | Interesting stuff about packet http://hydra.carleton.ca/~im/im.html | radio & our 56kbps radio LAN From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/8 wave vs. J-pole Date: 10 Aug 1995 08:22:47 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 4 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40ctmn$r7t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com And remember a 5/8 wave depends on a large (several wavelength) good conducting ground to acheive it's gain. So a 5/8 stuck up in the air or over a small groundplane does not acheive anywhere near it's theoretical gain, and may even be worse than a 1/2 wave. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news From: Eric Hoppe <102475.3010@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,alt.radio.pirate Subject: An SWR/RF Power Meter Date: 10 Aug 1995 00:53:52 GMT Organization: Progressive Concepts Lines: 8 Message-ID: <40blb0$et2$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12711 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8852 alt.radio.pirate:9558 We have the Diamond Antenna Model SX-200 RF power Meters in stock for only $135 plus $6 shipping. These meters show forward and reflected power and SWR. Switchable full scale readings of 5, 20, and 200 watts. 30 day money back offer, and full one year warranty. Visa and Master Card accepted. Call Today! -- Progressive Concepts (909)626-4969 Fax:(909)626-4329 From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:20 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Antenna and lighteni Message-ID: <1995Aug8.171632.24780@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <01HTJYCD6FHU00CU92@uthscsa.edu> <1995Aug3.212303.2807@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <403vho$sgd@cocoa.brown.edu> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:16:32 GMT Lines: 32 In article <403vho$sgd@cocoa.brown.edu> CC015012@brownvm.brown.edu (john 015) writes: >In article <1995Aug3.212303.2807@ke4zv.atl.ga.us>, gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary >Coffman) said: > >>The charge that generates streamers comes *from* the >>Earth (calling Earth zero volts is just a measuremental convention, >>and says nothing about the charges present). So the better conductors >>carry it to the pointed rods better than if it had to make its way up >>the unknown impedance of the building structure. And the pointed rods >>form streamers at a lower potential than blunt structures. > >According to the books I have read (dated), no real difference >has been *observed* between pointed and blunt lightning rods. >I'd be interested in data showing that there is a difference. >Anyone have a reference ? Even Ben Franklin, the inventor of the lightning rod, noticed that a sharp rod broke into corona (streamer formation) earlier than a blunt rod. That's also why mobile antennas have a "anti-corona ball" on the end rather than a sharp point. It's not just because you could put someone's eye out with it. :-) For academic references, try _Atmospheric Electricity_ by John Chalmers, or _Lightning_, Vol 1, _The Physics of Lightning_ edited by R. H. Golde, or _The Lightning Discharge_ by Martin Uman. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:21 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!wabe.csir.co.za!news.pix.za!net-17 From: pb000005@pixie.co.za Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Balun Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 05:11:30 GMT Organization: PiX - Proxima information X-change Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4072m2$flv@foxbat.pix.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: net-17.pix.za To: Everyone X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3 This is a message on behalf of a friend of mine. please reply to pleiad@pixie.co.za Regards Paul > Cut here < Could anyone please help with a diagram of how to wind a 9:1 or a 10:1 balun for a HF antenna. I would like to cover the frequencies 3 to 30mhz. Which emporium sells the ferrite rings for the above Your assistance is appreciated. Regards Ken Lawrence (ZR6KJL) > Cut here < From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!news.jf.intel.com!ornews.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Balun Date: 8 Aug 1995 19:20:19 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <408ddj$3re@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <4072m2$flv@foxbat.pix.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <4072m2$flv@foxbat.pix.za>, wrote: >Could anyone please help with a diagram of how to wind a 9:1 >or a 10:1 balun for a HF antenna. I tried the email address given and it bounced. My question was: Is this for a transmitting antenna? Is this for a high SWR application? If so, 450/9=50 ohms may not apply since the impedance may never be 450 ohms. If this is for a non-resonant transmitting antenna, then a 4:1 or 1:1 balun may be as good, better, or worse than a 9:1 depending on the impedance seen by the balun. Let's say the SWR is 10:1 and the impedance the balun sees is 4.5+j0. A 9:1 balun would make a low impedance problem even worse by transforming it to 0.5+j0 ohms. The balun does not transform the characteristic impedance of the transmission line unless the SWR=1:1. If the SWR is not close to 1:1 then the balun attempts to transform whatever impedance it sees which is not the characteristic impedance of the transmission line. At the resistive points it would be 450*SWR or 450/SWR for 450 ohm ladder-line. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!sum-bk From: sum-bk@garnet.berkeley.edu (Christopher Jou) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Beginner Antenna Date: 10 Aug 1995 03:12:10 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 12 Message-ID: <40btea$fcp@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Hello, my names Chris, and I'm just beginning to open the book on Radios and Antennas. My interest in radios has just begun, I have my commercial radio license, and I'm into CB's. Shortly, after I study, I wanna get my two meter ticket, and build from there. I have a FM10a ramsey FM stereo transmitter. It broadcasts on 88-108mhz FM. I was wondering how I could build a J-pole antenna. Since I'm a novice at this, it may take more than a little instruction and plain english. If anybody is willing to help, please e-mail me at sum-bk@garnet.berkeley.edu or christopher.jou@beenet.com. Thank You! ttyl =) Christopher jou From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!DIALix!melbourne.DIALix.oz.au!not-for-mail From: binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au (Martin Deeley) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Butternut help wanted Date: 9 Aug 1995 11:56:01 +1000 Organization: DIALix Services, Melbourne, Australia. Lines: 4 Sender: binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au Message-ID: <4094jh$7bf$1@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: binzel@melbourne.dialix.oz.au Can anyone help with construction details of a Butternut HF5B type antenna. Thanks in advance for replies by email. 73 de G0OQC From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!ames!olivea!express.ior.com!news From: Joe Pfeuffer Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Butternut help wanted Date: 10 Aug 1995 02:04:36 GMT Organization: Internet On-Ramp, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <40bpfk$hr3@express.ior.com> References: <4094jh$7bf$1@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs4-16.ior.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au Hi: I put one togeather for Field Day and it was no problem (really). I would be glad to help if you need a manual, or a specific answer, just let me know. 73 Joe - KW1K P.S. I'm planning on selling the antenna (used for 48 hours) since I've now got a set of phased verticals. ======================================================================= binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au (Martin Deeley) wrote: >Can anyone help with construction details of a Butternut HF5B type antenna. >Thanks in advance for replies by email. >73 de G0OQC > From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:25 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!rbloom From: rbloom@netcom.com (Ron Bloom) Subject: Butternut HF6V-X: Need Guys? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:46:39 GMT Lines: 5 Sender: rbloom@netcom8.netcom.com Can't tell from instructions if this antenna is meant to withstand winds or not. The mounting section is isolated from the antenna by a fiberglass connecting section: looks like it can't take as much bending as the rest of the aluminum... From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.nic.surfnet.nl!tuegate.tue.nl!turtle.stack.urc.tue.nl!esrac From: esrac@stack.urc.tue.nl (ESRAC) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V-X: Need Guys? Date: 10 Aug 1995 10:39:12 GMT Organization: Student Association Stack, Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands Lines: 15 Message-ID: <40cnkg$maq@tuegate.tue.nl> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: turtle.stack.urc.tue.nl X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Ron Bloom (rbloom@netcom.com) wrote: > Can't tell from instructions if this antenna is meant to withstand > winds or not. The mounting section is isolated from the antenna > by a fiberglass connecting section: looks like it can't take > as much bending as the rest of the aluminum... Well Ron, I have the HF6VX with the extension kit for 12 and 17m. It is about 30 feet high on a pole along the house. I have it guyed at ONE THIRD from the bottom of the antenna. It's been up that pole for 4 years now. I've talked to people that had it on the ground without guys. The anten- na broke several times at the fiberglass section... 73 de Aurelio a.m.m.bellussi@stud.tue.nl From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:26 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!omen!caf From: caf@omen.com (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V-X: Need Guys? Organization: Omen Technology INC Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 11:06:23 GMT Message-ID: References: Lines: 18 In article , Ron Bloom wrote: > >Can't tell from instructions if this antenna is meant to withstand >winds or not. The mounting section is isolated from the antenna >by a fiberglass connecting section: looks like it can't take >as much bending as the rest of the aluminum... I've had a 6v for some years with no problems in the antenna, except it doesn't work when iced up. It does bend in the wind. It is on its second matching cable (a length of 75 Ohm coax). Water got into the first cable. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX caf@omen.COM http://www.omen.com Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software" Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, GSZ and DSZ TeleGodzilla BBS: 503-621-3746 FTP: ftp.cs.pdx.edu pub/zmodem From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:28 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!news.halcyon.com!usenet From: gfiber@halcyon.com (Gary P. Fiber) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 8 Aug 1995 03:31:50 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <406lr6$pm6@news.halcyon.com> References: <3vm10l$bm@news.vcd.hp.com> <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <3vtet3$4ek@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3vtt94$8pj@ncar.ucar.edu> <401quf$55 NNTP-Posting-Host: blv-pm2-ip20.halcyon.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84492 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28910 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12658 In article , markem@primenet.com (Mark Monninger) says: > >In article <401quf$554@globe.indirect.com> Harold Lines writes: >> ... >>Of course, there's no way of telling how the CCRs will be enforced when >>you buy your house, but you might just luck into a situation like mine. >>Try putting up a couple of antennas and see if anyone says something. >>You might just be pleasantly surprised. > >I live across town from Harold (in Gilbert, AZ) and I have a similar >situation. There are CC&R's prohibiting the normal things but there was no >enforcement written into them, no board or homeowner's association...only a >civil suit and the loser pays all costs. There were several TV antennas in the >neighborhood already so I put up my vertical on the roof. No one said >anything. I now have three antennas up and a 8.5 ft TVRO dish. No one has >said anything in 6 years so I figure I'm safe. At one time the mayor lived >across the street, the town manager lived next door, and a couple town >councilmen lived in the neighborhood, too. > >No one pays any attention to the CC&R's any more and, amazingly enough, the >neighborhood has not gone to hell in a handbasket. Property values have >steadily risen (could it be the LACK of CC&R enforcement? Perish the thought!) >and houses put on the market sell faster than average. I don't know how the >neighbors would feel about a nice tower & beam, but I don't have the money or >real desire to have one anyway. > >On the other hand, most of the newer ticky-tacky developments in the area have >the standard bull(chicken-?)shit CC&R's and gestapo HA's to go with them. I >guess we just lucked out. > >73... Mark AA7TA All kidding aside, if you do not get the relief you are looking for. Check into livestock restrictions. Nothing like a couple smelly Hogs grazing in your yard to bring the neighbors to their senses :) It has worked in many places before. Best time is summertime when the winds of summer blow the right direction. Gary From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:29 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!stevew From: stevew@netcom.com (Steve Wilson) Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3vc51n$f35@nuclear.microserve.net> <3vci2j$kvt@ccnet2.ccnet.com> <405pjf$af2@redstone.interpath.net> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:22:45 GMT Lines: 52 Sender: stevew@netcom21.netcom.com Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84503 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28912 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12663 Curt Phillips (KD4YU@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net) wrote: : stevew@netcom.com (Steve Wilson) wrote: : >Curtis Wheeler (cwheeler@ccnet.com) wrote: : >: stevew@netcom.com (Steve Wilson) wrote: : >Notice : >how absolute I made that statement. I'd love to be proved wrong on : >this, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that you can't find a : >new house developement anywhere in the country that doesn't prohibit : >external towers/antennas in some fashion. : We still have developments here in central N.C. that don't have : restrictions against antennas. You have to get away from the Raleigh/ : Research Triangle area, but you can still be within commuting distance. How many donuts would you like bearing in mind that I have to packetize them before I send them to you via the net.. ;-) : As an ME, that's one of the reasons I took a real estate course : (only $15 at the local community college) before I bought my house : 12 years ago. Actually, I took the course 4 years before I bought : my house, and as I bought and sold some land prior to buying the : house, it paid for the time and effort overwhelmingly in the real : estate fees I saved by handling some of the sales myself. A good idea! But this is to my point also(I don't really think you were arguing with me ;-) in that most of us are ignorant. A class on the subject is a pretty good remedy for the situation! I'm fortunate in having been exposed to this subject pretty thoroughly when growing up. My dad is a real estate appraiser and I helped him on weekends to make my spending money. My grandfather was an agent also, and both of them did general contracting as well at one time or another. So I've been around the building/land business as an observer for awhile. As you'd imagine, there were a lot of calls to Dad when I made the offer on my first house! : When I made the offer for the house, it was contingent upon their : being "no restrictions on outside antennas". I've been a ham since : I was 13 years old, and a car/home without an antenna is unthinkable! : Fortunately, this development was out in the boonies (but not so much, : nowadays) and there was no restrictions on antennas. There WERE : quite a few other restrictions though, and I'm glad I knew about them : before purchasing the house. : I definitely recommend taking a real estate course if you can. Good idea! : Curt Phillips KD4YU (ex-WB4LHI) |"I don't want to gain immortality Steve KA6S From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!gopher.cs.uofs.edu!triangle.cs.uofs.edu!bill From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 9 Aug 1995 12:06:18 GMT Organization: Department of Computing Sciences Lines: 80 Distribution: world Message-ID: <40a8bq$fbq@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3u5u5r$q6k@usc.edu> <3uba16$j74@news.isc.rit.edu><3ur0f2$m5t@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <45@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <47@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <3v915b$4qc@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> <3vaub2$o6m@atheria.europa.com> <3vm785$g9c@hpbab.wv> <3vt068$pig@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> <405q2b$rvc@hpbab.wv> NNTP-Posting-Host: triangle.cs.uofs.edu Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84572 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28915 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12688 In article <405q2b$rvc@hpbab.wv>, hanko@wv.mentorg.com (Hank Oredson) writes: |> |> And just how do towers and antennas affect adjoining property values? |> The answer is "They do not." I'll bet you also think having a house next door that has 4 foot high weeds and junked cars on the front lawn won't effect your chances of selling your house too. Like it or not, some people (non-hams) see towers and antennae exactly the same way. And as long as hams make up a totally non-significant percentage of the population, this will continue to be the case. |> |> Several people have already posted the results from the studies |> which show this. My wife sells houses for a living. I have heard a lot of reasons why people decide not to buy a house. Most of them strike me as absurd, but we are talking aesthetics here, and everyones taste is different. CC&Rs against towers and antennae would not exist unless someone was concerned enough about it to go to the trouble of drafting them. If they didn't think it would increase their ability to sell property, do you really think developers would bother?? Large numbers of people must agree with them, or it would become a simple matter of getting your neightbors to agree to remove them. It isn't, so what does that tell you?? |> |> The issue is not one of property values, but one of "We can control |> you, and if you do not think so, just try and put up an antenna |> here. We don't like them, and so we will not allow them." Nobody is controlling the ham. He can choose to live somewhere else. There is no guaranteed right to have a 200 foot tower in a residential neighborhood. |> |> I don't happen to like lots of things my neighbors do (like |> painting their houses in pastel colors, for example, or having |> tiny little manicured lawns instead of natural habitat). Then you should have looked for a place to live that had CC&Rs against those things. I have seen CC&R's that controlled the color you could paint your house. That too is an aesthetic that can adversely effect your abilty to sell your house at a later date. But fewer people care about it, so CC&Rs concerning house color are much less common. |> |> But I do not attempt to CONTROL what they do, but rather attempt |> to INFLUENCE how they do these things. |> |> In most of the Western US, if you want a tower, you cannot live in: |> a city; a housing development; a neighborhood; a large town. |> |> You have little or no control over the use of the property you own; |> what you can do, how you do it, and when you can do it has been |> decided for you. If you don't like it, you CANNOT "buy some other |> house" because they don't exist. But you agreed to that restriction before you bought the house. End of story. No one came in and told you after the fact that they were going to start restricting your activities. You agreed to the restriction when you signed the contract for the house. The best and only practical suggestion to come out of any of this is the suggestion that you add a clause to the contract concerning making all CC&Rs known and that if antennae are prohibited, the contract becomes void. The only other thing to do is if you really want to live in a particular area and it prohibits antennae, you could go from house to house and see if your prospective neighbors are willing to agree to the removal of that particular CC&R, before you buy the house. Of course, I highly suspect you will find that there are a lot more people who find towers and antennae unsightly than what you think. And in the end, it comes down to what I said above. Ham's are a statistically insignificant number in the population. And this is after all, supposed to be a democracy, with majority rule. All the best. bill KB3YV -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.uofs.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:36 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!stevew From: stevew@netcom.com (Steve Wilson) Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3u5u5r$q6k@usc.edu> <3uba16$j74@news.isc.rit.edu><3ur0f2$m5t@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <45@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <47@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <3v915b$4qc@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> <3vaub2$o6m@atheria.europa.com> <3vm785$g9c@hpbab.wv> <3vt068$pig@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> <405q2b$rvc@hpbab.wv> <40a8bq$fbq@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:33:17 GMT Lines: 143 Sender: stevew@netcom21.netcom.com Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84584 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28919 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12693 Bill Gunshannon (bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu) wrote: : I'll bet you also think having a house next door that has 4 foot high weeds : and junked cars on the front lawn won't effect your chances of selling your : house too. Like it or not, some people (non-hams) see towers and antennae : exactly the same way. And as long as hams make up a totally non-significant : percentage of the population, this will continue to be the case. Well, first Bill, you are ignoring what the "scientific" studies say, and second you are ignoring a fundamental piece of human behavior. People don't look up, they look at eye level or lower typically. I have a quick existance proof of this. When I was first courting my XYL, I took her over to my house the first time, and I'd warned her about the HF antenna I had in the middle of the roof. The house is your typical 1960's ranch style house in the burbs. The antenna is about 20 feet above the roof mounted smack dab in the center of same. Well, to make a long story short. We visited my house for the first time, then after we'd pulled away, and were down the street aways I asked what she thought of the antenna... "Oh darn, I forgot to look!" She hadn't noticed it EVEN THOUGH SHE KNEW ABOUT IT and was expecting to see some horrible monstrosity. It just didn't enter her field of vision while we walked up to the house front door, or left. : |> : |> Several people have already posted the results from the studies : |> which show this. : My wife sells houses for a living. I have heard a lot of reasons why people : decide not to buy a house. Most of them strike me as absurd,but we are talkin : aesthetics here, and everyones taste is different. CC&Rs against towers and : antennae would not exist unless someone was concerned enough about it to go to : the trouble of drafting them.If they didn't think it would increase their ability : to sell property, do you really think developers would bother?? Large numbers of : people must agree with them, or it would become a simple matter of getting your : neightbors to agree to remove them. It isn't, so what does that tell you?? It tells me that there are alot of control freaks out there! The problem is that the supply and demand are all out of whack. Sure there are some people that will only move into places like this...but then there is the another set, that I would argue is the silent majority, that are just like hams, and that don't know the CC&R's are even there! The ignorance arguement can be used quite strongly here...just as we don't know enough to ask about CC&R's when were looking, the average home buyer probably doesn't either. Your wife sells real estate, but has she ever done land development? The typical developer just uses the same set of CC&R's over and over again. In fact, one adhock survey found that there are just four boiler-plate sets of CC&R's in the Greater LA area (like San Diego to Santa Barbara) in use by all the different developers! There isn't a whole lot of thinking here...the formula works (so they think..) so they keep repeating it, and the general public doesn't know what they are getting into typically, especially if you are the second buyer of the property! : |> The issue is not one of property values, but one of "We can control : |> you, and if you do not think so, just try and put up an antenna : |> here. We don't like them, and so we will not allow them." : Nobody is controlling the ham. He can choose to live somewhere else. There : is no guaranteed right to have a 200 foot tower in a residential neighborhood. Where? Within the town I live in there are three sets of developments. There is stuff that is vintage 1960's, there is stuff that is circa 1980, and the majority is circa 1990+. So the vast majority of the property I can buy has CC&Rs on it(1980+) and the majority of that set includes CC&R's that prohibit antennas. Further, you assume it's gonna be a 200 foot tower...no...55 feet will do thank you, and that is actually limit placed by most of the municipalities around here. But this isn't even relevant since the CC&R's prohibit ANY antenna. You say I have a choice as to where I get to live...yep...anything in this town built around 1960 will be what I'm restricted too! I don't accept that as a reasonable answer! : |> : |> I don't happen to like lots of things my neighbors do (like : |> painting their houses in pastel colors, for example, or having : |> tiny little manicured lawns instead of natural habitat). : Then you should have looked for a place to live that had CC&Rs against those : things. I have seen CC&R's that controlled the color you could paint your : house. That too is an aesthetic that can adversely effect your abilty to : sell your house at a later date. But fewer people care about it, so CC&Rs : concerning house color are much less common. Yeah..and CC&Rs as to what type of front door you have, and what style roof you have, etc. Tell these dweebs to get a life and start worrying about their own affairs, not mine! : |> to INFLUENCE how they do these things. : |> : |> In most of the Western US, if you want a tower, you cannot live in: : |> a city; a housing development; a neighborhood; a large town. : |> : |> You have little or no control over the use of the property you own; : |> what you can do, how you do it, and when you can do it has been : |> decided for you. If you don't like it, you CANNOT "buy some other : |> house" because they don't exist. : But you agreed to that restriction before you bought the house. End of story. Uh..wait a minute here. What if he didn't know about the restrictions. You are ignoring that full disclosure isn't required in all 50 states! : No one came in and told you after the fact that they were going to start : restricting your activities. You agreed to the restriction when you signed the : contract for the house. The best and only practical suggestion to come out of : any of this is the suggestion that you add a clause to the contract concerning : making all CC&Rs known and that if antennae are prohibited, the contract becomes : void. The only other thing to do is if you really want to live in a particular : area and it prohibits antennae, you could go from house to house and see if your : prospective neighbors are willing to agree to the removal of that particular CC&R, : before you buy the house. Of course, I highly suspect you will find that there : are a lot more people who find towers and antennae unsightly than what you think. : And in the end, it comes down to what I said above. Ham's are a statistically : insignificant number in the population. And this is after all, supposed to be : a democracy, with majority rule. Yep, and protection of a minorities rights. (Igoring the fact that I don't have a right to put up a tower from a federal point of view.) What about the right to live in a place that I can afford, and raise my family. There are enough places that are seniors only, or now children as an example. (In CA the above is illegal...I don't know about other locales. ) The point is that there are deceptive selling practices going on in many places, and there is also a huge busy-body factor that just isn't right! : All the best. : bill KB3YV Steve KA6S From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: jonathan.ho@Xilinx.COM (Jonathan Ho) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 9 Aug 95 16:35:33 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 22 Message-ID: <199508091635.JAA00781@clemenza.xilinx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu Dear Netter, I have seen of a lot of arguments ranging from "you need to see the CC&R before you buy the property" to "the realtor is obligated to show the CC&R to the buyer" etc. I think that this is a bit far from the subject of this discussion. Why not we just give your own experience such as how to: 1. apply a tower permit from your city. 2. deal w/ the CC&R in your own neighbourhood. 3. deal w/ your neighbours (try to be a nice neighbour). 4. what to do if your neighbour wants to sell his house and says curb appearance is tarnished because of your tower/antenna etc. In this way, hams around the country can be beneficial from your discussions. 73, Jonathan ab6ls From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.service.uci.edu!e4e.oac.uci.edu!jwkelley From: jwkelley@e4e.oac.uci.edu (James W. KELLEY) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 9 Aug 1995 18:14:49 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 46 Message-ID: <40atup$scq@news.service.uci.edu> References: <199508091635.JAA00781@clemenza.xilinx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: e4e.oac.uci.edu Good point Johnathon!. I am preparing to go to my association with an application to the Architectural Committee to put up a vertical antenna (for 2 meters in this case). I expect the application to be denied. I will then go to the Board of Directors for an appeal. This is a common practice among homeowners in our association for any violation of CC&R's. At that time I will present the Board with Part 97 of the CFR (the part about local governments making reasonable allowances for amateur radio operators), and the House and Senate joint resolution in the same regard. In addition, I will present some examples of how city and county ordinances have been changing recently in accordance with PRB-1. I also intend to present some of the reports regarding radio amateurs who participated in the emergency efforts during the Northridge earthquake, and Laguna Beach and Malibu fires. I may also show some photographs of antenna installations in which the antennas are barely noticeable, and wouldn't be considered a "nuisance"! I would suggest some compromise guidelines. For instance, no 40 meter beams, or no masts over 35 feet - but R7's, R5's, j-poles - any kind of vertical or long wire under a certain height would be acceptable. I would be prepared to have a lengthly discussion about interference. I understand the FCC has a new book out about it which I could make available to the board. The point could be made that having the antenna up higher reduces interference. The fact that cable TV is prevalent in these neighborhoods means that interference to television is not at all likely in most cases. Some people also complain about interference to cellular and portable phones, so I will have to prepare for that. The Board of Directors can certainly still say no, and I will have little recourse except to continue to apply for an exemption. But!, this particular association sees themselves as a local government in a sense, so they already feel obliged to abide by the rulings of higher legislative bodies and courts. We have already had certain parts of our CC&R's superseded by state law, in effect voiding those particular parts. I will not have any luck trying to convince them that putting up an antenna is my right, but I might be able to convince them that they are obliged to allow me to do it - within reason. Jim KE6JPO From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:42 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 03:53:26 GMT Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET Lines: 66 Distribution: world Message-ID: <40c0k1$73n@nuclear.microserve.net> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3u5u5r$q6k@usc.edu> <3uba16$j74@news.isc.rit.edu><3ur0f2$m5t@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <45@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <47@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <3v915b$4qc@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> <3vaub2$o6m@atheria.europa.com> <3vm785$g9c@hpbab.wv> <3vt068$pig@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> <405q2b$rvc@hpbab.wv> <40a8bq$fbq@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> <40c08u$73n@nuclear.microserve.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 stevew@netcom.com (Steve Wilson) wrote: > >You say I have a choice as to where I get to live...yep...anything in >this town built around 1960 will be what I'm restricted too! I don't >accept that as a reasonable answer! I really don't understand the basis of this argument. The houses you want to buy are private property. They don't belong to you. Why would you ever think you have the right to tell the seller what conditions he should be allowed to place on the sale? The solution is no different than if you lived somewhere that had no jobs - find a different place to live. >Yeah..and CC&Rs as to what type of front door you have, and what >style roof you have, etc. Tell these dweebs to get a life and start >worrying about their own affairs, not mine! It is exactly their own affairs that they *are* worrying about. If you don't want to agree to the restrictions, the sellers are perfectly happy to see you walk away. You, on the other hand, are implying that they should be forced to sell regardless of your intent, and without regard for their own well-being. The fact that you don't agree with them as to the effect of your antennas on their welfare is entirely irrelevant to the principles involved. >Uh..wait a minute here. What if he didn't know about the >restrictions. > >You are ignoring that full disclosure isn't required in all 50 states! Full disclosure is a convenience, not a substitute for the buyer's need to be aware. Unless you want to live in a totally socialist state, it must be the buyer's responsibility to investigate the merits of the purchase. The seller only has to be honost in whatever representations he chooses to make regarding the property. Given that the covenants are a matter of public record, it is difficult to imagine how the seller could defraud a buyer in this regard. >Yep, and protection of a minorities rights. (Igoring the fact that >I don't have a right to put up a tower from a federal point of view.) The issue has nothing to do with minority rights. It has to do with the rights of the seller to attach whatever conditions he wishes to the sale, be it price, time of closing, condition of the property, or restrictive covenants. >What about the right to live in a place that I can afford, and >raise my family. You have no such right - you only have the right to purchase property that a seller agrees to sell. >The point is that there are deceptive selling practices going on in >many places, and there is also a huge busy-body factor that just >isn't right! The busy-body factor can't bother you unless you voluntarily agree to the covenants proposed by the seller. On the other hand, if you try to force the seller by law to agree to your terms instead, then *you* will have destroyed the concept of private property in a way much worse than any covenant could ever do. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!newsfeed.ACO.net!paladin.american.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 03:47:32 GMT Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET Lines: 66 Distribution: world Message-ID: <40c08u$73n@nuclear.microserve.net> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3u5u5r$q6k@usc.edu> <3uba16$j74@news.isc.rit.edu><3ur0f2$m5t@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <45@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <47@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <3v915b$4qc@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> <3vaub2$o6m@atheria.europa.com> <3vm785$g9c@hpbab.wv> <3vt068$pig@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> <405q2b$rvc@hpbab.wv> <40a8bq$fbq@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84640 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28924 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12718 stevew@netcom.com (Steve Wilson) wrote: > >You say I have a choice as to where I get to live...yep...anything in >this town built around 1960 will be what I'm restricted too! I don't >accept that as a reasonable answer! I really don't understand the basis of this argument. The houses you want to buy are private property. They don't belong to you. Why would you ever think you have the right to tell the seller what conditions he should be allowed to place on the sale? The solution is no different than if you lived somewhere that had no jobs - find a different place to live. >Yeah..and CC&Rs as to what type of front door you have, and what >style roof you have, etc. Tell these dweebs to get a life and start >worrying about their own affairs, not mine! It is exactly their own affairs that they *are* worrying about. If you don't want to agree to the restrictions, the sellers are perfectly happy to see you walk away. You, on the other hand, are implying that they should be forced to sell regardless of your intent, and without regard for their own well-being. The fact that you don't agree with them as to the effect of your antennas on their welfare is entirely irrelevant to the principles involved. >Uh..wait a minute here. What if he didn't know about the >restrictions. > >You are ignoring that full disclosure isn't required in all 50 states! Full disclosure is a convenience, not a substitute for the buyer's need to be aware. Unless you want to live in a totally socialist state, it must be the buyer's responsibility to investigate the merits of the purchase. The seller only has to be honost in whatever representations he chooses to make regarding the property. Given that the covenants are a matter of public record, it is difficult to imagine how the seller could defraud a buyer in this regard. >Yep, and protection of a minorities rights. (Igoring the fact that >I don't have a right to put up a tower from a federal point of view.) The issue has nothing to do with minority rights. It has to do with the rights of the seller to attach whatever conditions he wishes to the sale, be it price, time of closing, condition of the property, or restrictive covenants. >What about the right to live in a place that I can afford, and >raise my family. You have no such right - you only have the right to purchase property that a seller agrees to sell. >The point is that there are deceptive selling practices going on in >many places, and there is also a huge busy-body factor that just >isn't right! The busy-body factor can't bother you unless you voluntarily agree to the covenants proposed by the seller. On the other hand, if you try to force the seller by law to agree to your terms instead, then *you* will have destroyed the concept of private property in a way much worse than any covenant could ever do. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!depot.mro.dec.com!mrnews.mro.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph From: randolph@est.enet.dec.com (Tom Randolph) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 10 AUG 95 11:44:58 Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <40d9ic$e6e@mrnews.mro.dec.com> References: <3u3upn$c7c@shell1.best.com> <3u5u5r$q6k@usc.edu> <3uba16$j74@news.isc.rit.edu><3ur0f2$m5t@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <45@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <47@ibbs.anaheim.ca.us> <3v915b$4qc@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> <3vaub2$o6m@atheria.europa.com> < <40a8bq$fbq@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pida.enet.dec.com Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84666 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28926 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12729 As a ham who'll be buying a house sometime soon, I've been following this discussion closely. My wife's a ham too, and shares similar views in regard to CC&Rs. A question: is there any reason the seller and I can't come to an agreement to simply waive the CC&Rs that I don't like? Especially if this is included in a purchase contract in some way? The part I don't see is what a homeowner's association would have to say about this one way or another... unless they have some way of preventing me from buying under the conditions I want. Luckily, there's plenty of houses with no restrictions whatsoever here in New England. -Tom R. N1OOQ randolph@est.enet.dec.com From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.oberlin.edu!ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu!PRUTH From: pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Counterpoises for Butternut vertical Date: 10 Aug 1995 13:09:36 GMT Organization: Oberlin College, Oberlin, Ohio Lines: 17 Message-ID: <40d0eg$onq@news.cc.oberlin.edu> Reply-To: pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu A 19" counterpoise wire on my 2m HT has made a distinct improvement in incoming and outgoing signals. I'm wondering if putting single counterpoise wires for each of the WARC bands between 80-10m out from my ground-mounted Butternut might result in the same success I'm enjoying on 2m. I'm already using several random-length bare wires buried 1" under the sod, along with a ground rod, but due to severe RFI suffered by my neighbors I switched to a dipole which has helped the RFI problem. I really enjoy using the HF6V vertical, and wonder if counterpoises draped over the ground in the ravine behind our rental might eliminate the RFI enough so that I can start to use the vertical again. I'm thinking of using 12 gauge insulated solid copper wire for the counterpoises, one 1/4 wave wire for each band to start, but am not sure what the right length for each should be...is it a simple mechanical 1/4 wavelength, or electrical 1/4 wavelength, and if the latter, what is the velocity factor and resulting length of 1/4 wave for 12 gauge solid copper wire for the WARC bands between 80-10m? Thanks for your help. Bill KB8USZ pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:47 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!southwind.net!symbios.com!kthompso.wichitaks.ncr.com!ken.thompson From: ken.thompson@KS.Symbios.COM (Ken Thompson) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Dish-cone HF Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:10:24 Organization: Symbios Logic Lines: 14 Distribution: usa Message-ID: References: <3u1f62$qae@nexus.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kthompso.wichitaks.ncr.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] In article <3u1f62$qae@nexus.uiowa.edu> jstroppe@uhl.uiowa.edu (John Stroppel) writes: >From: jstroppe@uhl.uiowa.edu (John Stroppel) >Subject: Dish-cone HF >Date: 12 Jul 1995 21:34:58 GMT > >Can the bottom of the skirt of an HF dish-cone antenna be grounded? In >other words- The copper pipe which I used to bond the skirt wires together, >Can it be buried in the ground? John WA0VYZ DISC CONE and yes its tied to the coax shield anyway, one can ground it. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:48 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 6 Aug 1995 19:53:10 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 26 Distribution: world Message-ID: <4036j6$gnj@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vqqml$m7o@chnews.ch.intel.com> <401rt3$hi3$1@adelaide.dialix.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <401rt3$hi3$1@adelaide.dialix.oz.au>, Rob Silva wrote: >I for one don't think they were being deliberately deceitful at all. Go back >and look at the list of losses they enumerated. Clearly there are some >exaggerations and it would be unlikely to get all of them in unison. Bear in >mind, however, that all of the losses they list could be encountered in a >conventional SG-230 + Whip installation. Perhaps they're just bagging their own >product ;-) Hi Rob, it took me a day after talking to them to experience their mind set. (where they are coming from, as my daughter would say). Their world has an antenna system at the top of a 20 foot mast. One installs it and uses it, as is, for all-band HF operation. An auto-tuned screwdriver may win under those conditions, but I don't know of anything else that would be better than the SGC system *for those circumstances*. Looks to me the mistake that SGC made was assuming that land vehicles have the 20 foot mast problem to contend with. Still, a shootout from a moving vehicle would make the SGC system look good against anything that is not auto- tuned over the whole amateur HF spectrum. Jim, W5GYJ, would win such a shootout. He has a bugcatcher on his pickup and could have me in the back changing taps. "Don't key up yet and watch that curve." :-) 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:49 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 8 Aug 1995 04:05:00 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <406npc$7nq@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3v3432$sck@newshost.lanl.gov> <3vckq3$lh9@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com I want to thank Armond for sending me the Oct. '94 "Worldradio" and returning my two bucks. In that issue, "Aerials" used more than half the column slamming a company selling an auto-tuner and vertical antenna for $900, not for the price but for the claim, "eliminates power-draining antenna wire- runs between the (SGC-303) antenna and (SGC-230) tuner." Mr. Sterba then used (1) a 50 ohm antenna??? and (2) an SWR of 4:1??? to "prove" that this antenna company was wrong. He strongly implies that the loss in 10 ft of RG-213 is neglible. He then offers the challenge, "I'll be short of breath the whole time waiting for the rebuttal..." The rebuttal didn't come from Bellevue, It came from me. I pointed out that there was no (switchable) loading coil in the SGC system and instead of 4:1, the SWR might be 400:1. I calculated the loss in 10 ft of RG-213 at *7 dB* using a 9 ft. whip on 20m as an example where the loss in 10 ft of RG-213 is *not* neglible. I don't have an SGC-303 antenna but I'm willing to bet that the loss in 10 ft of RG-213 feeding an SGC-303 antenna without an SGC-230 tuner, is indeed "power draining" in contradiction to what Mr. Sterba implied in his column. He did not talk about the expected high SWR with the SGC-303 antenna, so why did he slam their true statement? Instead of a "power-draining" sky high SWR between the tuner and the antenna, the SWR between the auto-tuner and the transceiver is near perfect. Please don't mention "blast holes through major mountain ranges and probably some laws of physics." I concede they can not blast holes through the laws of physics. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:49 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!newsfeed.gsfc.nasa.gov!usenet From: kirk@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Ferrite bead any good for antenna Date: 9 Aug 1995 19:19:30 GMT Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA Lines: 9 Message-ID: <40b1o2$iub@post.gsfc.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: isobar.gsfc.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 I just got a new computer that came with a ferrite bead to clamp around the video cable for certain monitors. I don't need it for my monitor, so is there any good use I can put it to? Would it help at the junction of the coax to my roll-up 2M Jpole? Anything else? I hate to throw gear away. Bob Kirk N3OZB From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!news.bu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!adamkern.tiac.net!adamkern From: adamkern@tiac.net (Adam Kern) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Fritzel 80-10 m Dipole Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:32:05 Organization: The Internet Access Company Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: adamkern.tiac.net Summary: I need input on which antenna to get. X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] Hey! I'm starting up a first time HF sations, with a Kenwood 450SAT as the rig. I need to know what antenna to get. I was thinking about starting with a Fritzel 80-10 m dipole. I would then get a Telex Hy-Gain rooftower package in about a year. Could somebody give any feedback on the fritzel antenna if they've used it. I heard good things about it from HRO, but I wanted to check with other hams that weren't trying to sell it to me. Thanks alot! adamkern@tiac.net From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:51 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet From: ignacy@misz.animal.uiuc.edu (Ignacy Misztal) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Fritzel 80-10 m Dipole Date: 10 Aug 1995 13:47:24 GMT Organization: University of Illinois Lines: 20 Message-ID: <40d2lc$oke@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: Reply-To: ignacy@uiuc.edu (Ignacy Misztal) NNTP-Posting-Host: misz.animal.uiuc.edu X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.02 In , adamkern@tiac.net (Adam Kern) writes: >Hey! > >I'm starting up a first time HF sations, with a Kenwood 450SAT as the rig. I >need to know what antenna to get. I was thinking about starting with a >Fritzel 80-10 m dipole. I would then get a Telex Hy-Gain rooftower package in >about a year. I think that Fritzel is a Windom antenna, i.e., fed at about 1/3 length and matched to coax via 1:6 balun. QST had a review article on a U.S.-made Windom antenna. I had one home-made. Had wider bandwith than the dipole on 80m but worked worse than a vertical on 10-20m. Ignacy Misztal Ham radio: NO9E, SP8FWB E-mail: ignacy@uiuc.edu University Of Illinois 1207 W. Gregory Dr., Urbana, IL 61801, USA tel. (217) 244-3164 Fax: (217) 333-8286 From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!newsmaster From: "Franklin M. Hays" <102156.3135@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 7 Aug 1995 21:32:41 GMT Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Lines: 8 Message-ID: <4060pp$9dl@dub-news-svc-6.compuserve.com> References: <4000ak$amp@warp.cris.com> <401v8q$1iss@news.gate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dd06-008.compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: rlehman@gate.net Hi...de VE6INA name is Frank, I had the GAP VOYAGER DX-IV. A very poor constructed antenna, mine broke in half by only 45 mph wind. Performance was poor to considering the price. The support was almost nil, the guy in Florida could not answer my questions and was not very friendly. NO GAP FOR ME ANYMORE...73 de Frank VE6INA From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: buddy10@aol.com (BUDDY10) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 8 Aug 1995 19:41:19 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 3 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <408smv$led@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4060pp$9dl@dub-news-svc-6.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Well,well,well... It is interesting to see some negative comments on the GAP's. If you do not like the GAP's what would you recomend to someone looking for a general coverage vertical antenna ? From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: buddy10@aol.com (BUDDY10) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 8 Aug 1995 20:29:19 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 3 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <408vgv$mi9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4060pp$9dl@dub-news-svc-6.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Well,well,well... It is interesting to see some negative comments on the GAP's. If you do not like the GAP's what would you recomend to someone looking for a general coverage vertical antenna ? From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 01:37:11 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 2 Message-ID: References: <4060pp$9dl@dub-news-svc-6.compuserve.com> <408vgv$mi9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com X-To: BUDDY10 Butternut! From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!news.funet.fi!news.csc.fi!nokia.fi!ntc.nokia.com!usenet From: mlaiho@trsisy02es.ntc.nokia.com (Mikko Laiho) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 9 Aug 1995 11:36:37 GMT Organization: Nokia Telecommunications Lines: 15 Message-ID: <40a6k5$ajb@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> References: <4000ak$amp@warp.cris.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc139-47.trs.ntc.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Keywords: GAP ANTENNA X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 I have had a GAP Challenger VI for four years. On 80m GAP is 0 to 3 S-units down on receive compared to a dipole at 6 meters height. Long distance stations are sometimes equal on both, dipole wins always for short distances. On 15m GAP seems to be about 1 S-unit down compared to a plain ground plane antenna which base is 4 meters above ground. On other bands GAP seems to work reasonably well, maybe because I have nothing to compare with. 73 Mikko OH2BCH From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.rcinet.com!sally.dma.org!millersg From: millersg@dma.org (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 9 Aug 1995 15:03:19 GMT Organization: Dayton Microcomputer Association; Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 10 Message-ID: <40ainn$dnj@sally.dma.org> References: <4060pp$9dl@dub-news-svc-6.compuserve.com> <408vgv$mi9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dmapub.dma.org In article , wrote: > Butternut! With a good radial system! -- Steve Miller millersg@dmapub.dma.org WD8IXE - Ridin' the aethereal waves From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Date: 9 Aug 1995 11:25:51 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 3 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40ak1v$6vn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40a6k5$ajb@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com The results of use of my GAP have shown it to be a very poor performer. A ground mounted Butternut kills it on all bands. It does have a good SWR though. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:56 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!mikeka From: mikeka@netcom.com (Mike Kapitan) Subject: Re: GAP ANTENNAS??? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <40a6k5$ajb@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <40ak1v$6vn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 19:13:53 GMT Lines: 12 Sender: mikeka@netcom12.netcom.com W8JI Tom (w8jitom@aol.com) wrote: : The results of use of my GAP have shown it to be a very poor performer. A : ground mounted Butternut kills it on all bands. It does have a good SWR : though. 73 Tom I agree with Tom ... I own a GAP Eagle ... was a replacement for an r7 I had up for 2 yrs (problems with that are material for a whole 'nuther post). Though the swr is very good on all bands its performance is basically dismal with 40m being particularly bad despite a 1.2:1 swr. Performance on 12 and 15M bands is best with my g5rv beating it handily on all other bands. 73, Mike From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:57 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!rbloom From: rbloom@netcom.com (Ron Bloom) Subject: ground for radial system on roof? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:49:43 GMT Lines: 12 Sender: rbloom@netcom8.netcom.com Butternut antenna on 3rd story flat roof (office building) + radials. what is to be used for "ground" ?? we've got : 1.) cold water pipes 2.) building structural steel (eye-beams) thanx, wa6mqc From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!carbon!hermes.cair.du.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.continuum.net!usenet From: jrovero@q.continuum.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: ground for radial system on roof? Date: 10 Aug 1995 01:06:27 GMT Organization: Ocean Surveys, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <40bm2j$rjb@news.continuum.net> References: Reply-To: jrovero@q.continuum.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cd-24.continuum.net X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.09 In , rbloom@netcom.com (Ron Bloom) writes: > >Butternut antenna on 3rd story flat roof (office building) + radials. > >what is to be used for "ground" ?? > >we've got : 1.) cold water pipes > 2.) building structural steel (eye-beams) > If you can tie to one of these things near the base of the antenna, fine. If not, the radials will provide a RF, but not DC (lightning) ground. P.J. "Josh" Rovero work: provero@connix.com Ocean Surveys, Inc. play: jrovero@q.continuum.com Old Saybrook, CT 06475 USA Amateur Radio: KK1D From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.gmi.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Helically would rotatable dipoles Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 01:35:11 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 1 Message-ID: References: <1995Aug7.093327.1@orion.alaska.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com X-To: The Lakeview Co. makes the elements and the dipole connector. Good folks. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!solitaire.cv.nrao.edu!sadira.gb.nrao.edu!dgordon From: dgordon@sadira.gb.nrao.edu (David Gordon) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Help with 2m LPF in series Date: 8 Aug 1995 22:13:03 GMT Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory Lines: 7 Distribution: world Message-ID: <408nhf$p19@solitaire.cv.nrao.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dubhe.gb.nrao.edu When connecting 2 2m LPF together, should you use a 1/2 wave section or does the length matter??? I think it does, they should be in-phase(?). Thanks for the help. Post here and send me an email copy please. David - KB4LCI dgordon@nrao.edu From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:28:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.cais.com!news From: mozez@pacificnet.net (The Magik is Mine!!!) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Ignore This...I'm New and Just Testing Stuff Date: 10 Aug 1995 05:45:51 GMT Organization: The Magik is Mine!!! Lines: 2 Message-ID: <40c6ef$6it@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.199.120.117 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.3 I told you to just ignore this!!! Sorry for the Bother! From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:00 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!blackbird.afit.af.mil!tecsun1.tec.army.mil!navair2.nalda.navy.mil!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet From: Bill Harwood Subject: Re: J-pole and ground plane Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA References: <405f7m$phb@freenet.vcu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 19:15:22 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:405f7m$phb@freenet.vcu.edu Lines: 28 I know that j-poles don't require a ground plane, but would the existance of a ground plane hamper their performance. Absolutely not. A ground plane always helps the performance of an antenna although it may not be "required". I would like to put the ARRL Antenna Book's 2m Super J-pole (1/2 wave over 1/2 wave) on my car. Is this ok? Its pretty tall. Lots of luck. I have seen some on boats and motor homes. Also a guy in our town has a 440 version. Can I add a 1/2 wave section to my existing 5/8 wave mag mount antenna to form a 1/2 over 5/8 antenna? If you can get the phasing and matching to work, go for it.... It is possible to get your antenna pattern so flat in the verticle that you won't work high placed repeaters well. Check the pattern with one of the antenna modeling programs. Have a great time. Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.ip.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Leave it on, or take it off??? Date: Wed, 09 Aug 1995 04:59:09 GMT Message-ID: <1088975916-950808215909@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 25 I' ve been playing around with various dipole wire antennas on 40 and 80 meters. Using home made 1:1 air core baluns and insulated wire (12 gauge), I am seeing reflected power of about 5 watts with 100 watts forward on the 80 meter dipole. I trimmed the antenna for the lowest reflected power at 3.9 mhz and on both sides of center freq, the reflected power goes up as I would think it would. However, I am curious as to why I have 5 watts reflected. The wire I am using is 12 gauge thhn insulated wire. When I place my mfj 941 inline, I can not "tune" out this 5 watts reflected power. On the 40 meter dipole, I have about 10 watts reflected for 100 out! Ouch! Same kind of wire, different balun, same coax...random length. Does anyone have any experience with swr effects leaving the insulation on the wire? The tuner will tune out the reflected power. I have a 40 meter wire dipole at my house with no balun and stripped 12 gauge wire and have .5 watts reflected with 100 watts out. Same with my 20 meter dipole...no balun and stripped wire and .75 watts reflected. Both of these antennas have random lengths of coax. Any Ideas??? Jim Wooddell jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!news.bu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!nexus.interealm.com!root From: gmolnar@nexus.interealm.com (George J. Molnar) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Leave it on, or take it off??? Date: Wed, 09 Aug 1995 12:56:40 GMT Organization: ICG/MagNET (303) 745-9205 Lines: 44 Message-ID: <40ab35$hud@nexus.interealm.com> References: <1088975916-950808215909@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp201.interealm.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) wrote: >I' ve been playing around with various dipole wire antennas on 40 and 80 >meters. Using home made 1:1 air core baluns and insulated wire (12 >gauge), I am seeing reflected power of about 5 watts with 100 watts >forward on the 80 meter dipole. I trimmed the antenna for the lowest >reflected power at 3.9 mhz and on both sides of center freq, the >reflected power goes up as I would think it would. However, I am >curious as to why I have 5 watts reflected. The wire I am using is >12 gauge thhn insulated wire. When I place my mfj 941 inline, I can not >"tune" out this 5 watts reflected power. >On the 40 meter dipole, I have about 10 watts reflected for 100 out! >Ouch! Same kind of wire, different balun, same coax...random length. >Does anyone have any experience with swr effects leaving the insulation >on the wire? The tuner will tune out the reflected power. >I have a 40 meter wire dipole at my house with no balun and stripped >12 gauge wire and have .5 watts reflected with 100 watts out. >Same with my 20 meter dipole...no balun and stripped wire and .75 watts >reflected. Both of these antennas have random lengths of coax. >Any Ideas??? The amount of reflected power is no big deal. Your VSWR values are quite low, even on 40 meters, and there will be no performance improvement, most likely, if you change things. The small residual SWR values could be caused by 1) meter error, 2) effect of nearby objects, 3) antenna height above real ground, 4) losses in the system (balun, cable, etc). The insulation on the antenna wire probably isn't a problem, unless it contributes to a lossy dielectric path at the feedpoint or support points. If you're making contacts, and the reports are satisfactory, take the SWR meter and tuner out of line and just enjoy yourself. You're probably losing more signal in the tuner and meter than you are with the small (apparent) mismatch. 73, George J. Molnar Highlands Ranch, Colorado Internet: gmolnar@nexus.interealm.com Packet radio: KF2T@N0QCU.#NECO.CO.USA.NA From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:03 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: looking for plans: CB base antenna Message-ID: <1995Aug8.170541.24681@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <40330m$15v@i-2000.com> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:05:41 GMT Lines: 31 In article <40330m$15v@i-2000.com> daved@i-2000.com writes: >My young nephew got an old 23 channel CB and power supply at a yard sale. He is >looking for an antenna but his funds are limited. Does anyone have, or know >where I can get plans for a simple ground plane? Construction from copper pipe >or tensioned wire is what I am thinking of. I think he would enjoy making the >antenna more than saving to buy one. Any suggestions appreciated. Ok, lets try something real simple and real cheap. Got a tree handy? Measure from the highest limb you can fling a rope over to where you're going to put the radio. Now go buy that much RG-8. Put a PL-259 on the radio end. Now take a knife and remove the outer insulation from 104 inches of the other end of that cable. Now push, wiggle, and finagle the braid back from the end of the cable until it's not tight on the inner conductor anymore. Start rolling it down the coax (like a sock) so that the braid doubles back over the insulation below the cut. When you're done, you'll have 104 inches of exposed inner conductor and 102 inches of shield braid folded back over the cable. Now skin a couple of inches of inner insulation off the end of the cable, twist a loop in it and tie a rope to it. Use that rope to hoist it up in the tree. You're done, have fun transmitting. This is called a coaxial sleeve dipole. If you had a VSWR bridge, you could trim the lengths of inner conductor and braid to exact resonance, but it'll work well enough as described. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:04 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Loop Receiving Antenna for 80/160 Message-ID: <1995Aug8.165336.24521@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <403do3$n84@stella.tip.net> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:53:36 GMT Lines: 15 In article <403do3$n84@stella.tip.net> hermod@sds.se writes: >Why can't those antenna gurus write a simple >Do-it-exactly-like-this-1-2-3-4....-and-you-can't-go-wrong? Probably because real antennas are very rarely so cut and dried. Almost always there are objects in the near field that alter the behavior enough that you have to fall back on measure, cut, and try. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!newsserver.trl.OZ.AU!pcies4.trl.OZ.AU!ddiamond From: ddiamond@TRL.OZ.AU (Drew Diamond) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Loop Receiving Antenna for 80/160 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:37:25 Organization: TRL Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pcies4.trl.oz.au Keywords: loop antenna X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev Final Beta #7] >Would anyone have some information (particularly the proper formula) for loop >antenna's for 80/160m (or for BC and VLF receiving for that matter), >I've read various books, such as the ARRL material, as well as others, but >they seem to be making a number of assumptions about the readers background >knowledge that does not help.>What I would like to be able to do is order a set of Ferrite rods from Amidon, >and be able to work out the proper number of turns for a particular wire size, >and then optimize this with the proper tunable capacitor.>Any suggestions (old magazine articles in particular if they are available)>Thanks and 73>Joe>VE3FMQ Joe, see if you can look up; "Wideband Active Loop Antenna" Barendrecht- Elektor Electronics Mar '95, (loop 1 metre diameter), "Compact 160 m Transmitting Loop Antenna"- Marris, G2BZQ, 73 Sep. '94 (square loop), "The disciminator" (directional receiving antenna) Marris 73 Sep '94, (looks good, uses loopstick and "sense" antenna, maybe what you are looking for), "An Experimental 14 MHz Loopstick Antenna"- Marris, Short Wave Mag. May '94. "The Square Pancake Antenna"- Doolottle, W2SMR, 73 Sep. '91. "External Ferrite Aerial Units for SW, MW and LW Radios" Marris, Elektor Electronics, May '93 ( looks good, I think this is also maybe what you are after). 73 Drew, VK3XU. Telstra Research Laboratories.l From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!news.funet.fi!news.tele.fi!news.inet.tele.fi!usenet From: Osmo.Vuorio@tele.telebox.fi (Osmo Vuorio) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Loop Receiving Antenna for 80/160 Date: 9 Aug 1995 20:56:09 GMT Organization: TELECOM FINLAND, Engineering Lines: 15 Message-ID: <40b7d9$cpu@kuikka.inet.fi> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vuorios1.dial.tele.fi X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ In article , ddiamond@TRL.OZ.AU (Drew Diamond) says: .. >knowledge that does not help.>What I would like to be able to do is order a >set of Ferrite rods from Amidon, >and be able to work out the proper number of >turns for a particular wire size, >and then optimize this with the proper >tunable capacitor.>Any suggestions (old magazine articles in particular if >they are available)>Thanks and 73>Joe>VE3FMQ .. There is also a european book: Soft Ferrites, written by Snelling. I do not remember the exact information of the book. 1st edition was 197x and the 2nd edition is from the late 198x. Professional level ferrite bible ( to build up physical equipments ) Osmo Vuorio, OH2EU From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 10 Aug 1995 08:27:36 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 6 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40ctvo$r8o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Troy, I think the ARRL quit selling the book because their technical staff doesn't understand conjugate matching. It is an excellent book in my opinion. If you really want a copy bad I can call Maxwell and ask if he has any. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: MJF-941B Antenna Matching Unit - Help Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 00:20:01 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <1948565710-950805065741@racebbs.com> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:1948565710-950805065741@racebbs.com Lines: 27 G5RV's in any specific application are frequently very pickey about feed line length. Try adding or deleating 1/8 to 1/4 wave length at the frequency that is giving you trouble. The Antennas West book that comes with their G5RV's talks about this behavior. I have seen the behavior in my own G5RV installations and could not match them with a MFJ-941. Change the length and the problem goes away and it tunes fine. Also some of the "dial setttings on the MFJ-941 may be strange. That is not always is continuoulsly more inductance needed as you go down in frequency as you usually see in a multiband 1/2 wave dipole. Courage and good luck. I remember that first time. That "this tuner was supposed to tune anything and won't tune this" feeling. Good Luck Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!erinews.ericsson.se!usenet From: Jon Bell Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: MJF-941B Antenna Matching Unit - Help Date: 9 Aug 1995 13:11:17 GMT Organization: Ericsson Lines: 34 Message-ID: <40ac5l$ad2@erinews.ericsson.se> References: <1948565710-950805065741@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vkpc112.ericsson.se > G5RV's in any specific application are frequently very pickey about > feed line length. Try adding or deleating 1/8 to 1/4 wave length at the > frequency that is giving you trouble. > > > The Antennas West book that comes with their G5RV's talks about this > behavior. I have seen the behavior in my own G5RV installations and > could not match them with a MFJ-941. Change the length and the problem > goes away and it tunes fine. > > Also some of the "dial setttings on the MFJ-941 may be strange. That is > not always is continuoulsly more inductance needed as you go down in > frequency as you usually see in a multiband 1/2 wave dipole. > > > Courage and good luck. > > I remember that first time. That "this tuner was supposed to tune > anything and won't tune this" feeling. > > > Good Luck > > Bill Harwood You said it! Like when the 941E wouldn't tune on 160 meters, but the the small model with the meter (forgo the number) did it without the least problem. Weird! Jon > AB6DY > > From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!freenet3.freenet.ufl.edu!afn17891 From: "Thomas W. Castle" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Need Dimensions for Ladder Line J-POLE Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 04:24:36 -0400 Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <405mdq$nb3@mercury.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.afn.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <405mdq$nb3@mercury.interpath.net> The 450 ohm ladder wire j-pole specs' are as follows... Take at least a 60" piece of 450 ladder wire; skin the 2 wires at one end approx 1/2" each. Bend them over towards each other and solder them together... Then measure one side of the ladder wire to a dimension of 58" from the soldered ends and cut it off there.... On the other side of the ladder wire, measureing from the soldered ends to 19" and cut there. Then remove the piece of wire abt 41" by cutting the webbs; this will leave you a j-pole looking piece of 450 ladder wire. Now measure up about 3 & 1/2" from the solder joint on each side of the ladder wire an clean an area for you to terminate your coax feed line to... The center conductor to the long side an the sheild to the short side. The positioning of the coax on the ladder wire will determine quite a bit about your SWR. By trimming an moving coax along the ladder wire you can tailor the j-pole to preform to where you want it. BTW> This antenna works on 70cm as well as on 2 mtrs at the same time. So this will preform as a dual band antenna. I encapsulate mine in PVC pipe 3/4" & 1/2" with a reducer just above the end of 19" leg going to the 1/2" size pipe, with a cap glued on top. This allows me to either mast or roof mount it. The wire dimensions here; have been adjusted for the reaction to the pvc pipe enclosure... Hope this helps... De Tom KD4QHH | | | | | | | | | | | | | < 3.5" from bottom - coax attaches. |_| 19" side 58" side Good Luck... From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: frankg@gremlin.greenville.lib.sc.us Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Need Help with Interference from Computer to Radio Date: 9 Aug 1995 18:08:18 -0500 Organization: GreMLIN: Greenville, SC Lines: 14 Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu Message-ID: <9508091801.D4775Rx@gremlin.greenville.lib.sc.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu Subject: Need Help with Computer Interference I am having problems with interference from my computer to my 2 meter handheld HAM radio. I am using an inside antenna, and cannot use an outside one right now. Can anyone help me solve it? My computer is a 486 DX2/66. Should I install a high-pass filter at my antenna feed point? -Francis Gallivan replies MUST be sent to: frankg@gremlin.greenville.lib.sc.us From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!news.bu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!ip209.msp.primenet.com!berg From: berg@primenet.com (david berg) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: NEW WEB SITE Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 06:41:18 MST Organization: Primenet Lines: 2 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ip209.msp.primenet.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4] Check out the new web site at: www.primenet.com/~berg "THE HAM TRADER" list an ad for free. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:12 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!tivoli.tivoli.com!usenet From: Tim Deagan Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Q's on 3 element phased array Date: 8 Aug 1995 18:19:56 GMT Organization: thInk AgAIn services Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4089sc$ms9@tivoli.tivoli.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tivoli.tivoli.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 32bit) A FOAF bought a HUD home and is offering me the nifty looking antenna and 30' mast in the backyard for the taking. I am definetly going to grab it, but am not quite sure what it's original use was (I'll have to bring the thing down to measure lengths and such.) The antenna appears to be a three-element phased array using (1/2 wavelength?) center fed vertical dipoles. Each of the 3 verticals appears to be approx. (very approx.) 2 - 2.5 meters in length, made from thin diameter telescoped aluminum. They are fed from some kind of black box, possibly the phasing transformer. Inside the house there is a wallplate with a UHF female and a funky plug approx. the same diameter as the UHF, with four male prongs inside (possibly the mechanical switch contacts for the transformer circuit.) I'm guessing that this may have been a big CB antenna, although I wouldn't be surprised to find it was for an HF band. I just passed my Tech class exam (ticket's in the mail :-( and really only listen in on HF, and don't do any CB. I intend to do primarily VHF and UHF (since those are my privleges) until at some later date I pass the code test. The mast and mounting hardware is immediately useful, but I'm curious as to what uses I might put the antenna, or what mods it might survive. Any suggestions welcomed, I'll post the actual measurements later in the week when I get the thing on the ground. 73, --Tim -- ,----, <> ReV.TiM <> .----. { <> /--------------------------------------------------\ <> } `--( tim@thinkagain.com http://www.fc.net/~tdeagan )--' `--------------------------------------------------' From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!ulowell.uml.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!news1.oakland.edu!newshub.gmr.com!news.delcoelect.com!usenet From: pjdobosz@msmail.rey.delcoelect.com (Paul J. Dobosz) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Quadrifilar Antenna's Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 23:46:48 GMT Organization: Delco Electronics Corp. Lines: 27 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <4064nc$abh@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com> References: <3v7bqg$kkd@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <3vui1b$rah@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.208.19.134 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.46 Dan Bathker wrote: >ranecurl@engin.umich.edu (Rane Curl) wrote: >> >> In article , >> William Penner wrote: >> >I have been looking for information on the construction of Quadrifilar >> >antennas for use with GPS. Does anyone know off-hand where I might find >> >some discussion on this? None of the ARRL books seem to have anything. >> > >> >Bill Penner, WB7DPF >> > >> The ARRL publication _Satellite Experimenters Handbook_ (1990 - still >> available) contains parameters (in units of wavelengths) for the >> quadrifilar helical antenna. Some time ago a ham reported in >> sci.geo.satellite-nav that he had built one from semi-rigid coax >> for GPS use, and it worked. >> >> Rane Curl N8REG >> >> >Test,test A rather complete coverage of this antenna is contained in the ARRL book REFLECTIONS written by Walter Maxwell, W2DU. If I'm not mistaken, he was responsible for the antennas on the early OSCAR satellites. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.gmi.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: mikedom@aol.com (MikeDom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.equipment Subject: Re: ROTOR - Channel master - old tv salvage Date: 9 Aug 1995 00:45:08 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 7 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <409egk$sbn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <3vonnm$3ho@koala.uwec.edu> Reply-To: mikedom@aol.com (MikeDom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12681 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8816 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84560 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:15580 Hi Dan, You have an old channel master rotor, and all of the 3 wire rotors were basically the same. A new control box will run you old motor. I believe its something like 20 volts AC to run the thing if you want to make your own control. We just used one of those beasts this last field day....but we had a 12V DC motor installed in it ( we were QRP Battery) it worked quite well. 73 mike From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: tberdan@ix.netcom.com (Temp Berdan ) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Scanner ants: dual vs single efficiency? Date: 9 Aug 1995 21:04:01 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 19 Message-ID: <40b7s1$4ba@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sb1-08.ix.netcom.com Hi: Thought you fine Amateurs could give this scanner buff some good advice. I'm been using a combination of Grove Scanner beam (no rotor) and A/S broadband omni ants. (with Grove 3db (loss) splitter)with good results. As I'm going to be relocating to a new location, I am going to be replacing the old gear with new. Location is going to be 120 mi north of PHX and 30 miles south southeast of FLG @ 4000 ft., with a good sized "hill" bet. me and my main point of interest, PHX. Two questions: 1. What would you use as the best single or dual antenna setup (30mh-920mh)? 2. Lottsa monsoon and heat lightening there --- any suggestions as to good static lightening protection? Thanks for your help. Temp P.S. Which preamps are you getting the best results with? tb From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.iii.net!iii2.iii.net!not-for-mail From: sefranek@iii2.iii.net (Thomas C Sefranek) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Tubes Date: 9 Aug 1995 14:34:17 -0400 Organization: iii.net Lines: 11 Message-ID: <40av39$3v3@iii2.iii.net> References: <4007i6$cdj@news.globalx.net> <400mst$fps_001@ccc.amdahl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: iii2.iii.net I have discovered a small collection of true ANTIQUE tubes. Like what I saw illustrated by De-Forest? They make an 80 look modern! I also have some very old scokets. Make me an offer! Tom -- Thomas C. J. Sefranek WA1RHP Work: 508-425-2200 From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!clipper.ssb.com!usenet From: Larry Brandt Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: TVRO for microwave EME or radio astronomy? Date: 7 Aug 1995 22:12:59 GMT Organization: State Street Bank & Trust Co. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <40635b$hll@svna0001.clipper.ssb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lbrandt.ssb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 32bit) Anyone know where, how much, etc. for a 3 meter TVRO dish. I'd prefer solid (alum or f. glass) and not mesh. What newsgroup could I ask? TNX ES 73, Larry AA1EA From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: jonathan.ho@Xilinx.COM (Jonathan Ho) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: unsubscribe Date: 10 Aug 95 15:57:30 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 1 Message-ID: <199508101557.IAA01510@clemenza.xilinx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu unsubscribe From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: pglibber@uk.oracle.com (Peter Glibbery) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc Subject: US Military Field Expedient Antennas Date: 9 Aug 1995 04:25:19 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Lines: 42 Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu Message-ID: <9508090927.AA22216@ukpyr2.uk.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12685 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8820 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84567 I have some fairly basic questions that I would appreciate your help and guidance with. I have been reading a US Army Special Forces manual which discusses various types of improvised, field-expedient antennas such as: Ground Plane Horizontal Long-wire Half-Rhombic Doublet I'm writing from the UK and the references mentioned in the manual are not at all easy to come by - I've tried. 1) In the case of some of these designs there is a need for a 'ground'. The diagrams in the manual show one end of a wire attached to a metal stake which is pushed into the ground, while the other end is attached to the radio set itself. Where on the radio set is the free end of the ground wire attached ? Is it attached to some kind of socket, or do you somehow attach it to the body of the radio set ? 2) When using a 1/2-Rhombic the manual mentions that you feed the two 1/4 wave antenna elements from the centre using a 'coax'. What exactly is a 'coax' and how does it differ from the antenna wire itself ? 3) With the 1/2-Rhombic design the manual suggests that if a coax is not available to use a 'twisted pair'. What is a twisted pair ? My guess is two sheathed copper wires twisted together - but is this too simple a thought ? 4) With the 1/2-Rhombic one end of the antenna wire is attached to a terminating resistor. The idea of this resistor is to give some directionality to the radio wave (I recognise that there is a difference between a resistor and an insulator (in the later case, the manual suggests a piece of wood or a C-ration spoon)). Does anyone have a good idea of what would make a good field expedient resistor ? Thanks, Peter From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!Nntp.wes.army.mil!usenet From: butch@apollo.wes.army.mil (Butch Magee) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc Subject: Re: US Military Field Expedient Antennas Date: 9 Aug 1995 14:02:44 GMT Organization: USACE WES ITL Lines: 6 Message-ID: <40af64$hi3@prop.wes.army.mil> References: <9508090927.AA22216@ukpyr2.uk.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 134.164.80.37 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12698 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8837 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84595 In article <9508090927.AA22216@ukpyr2.uk.oracle.com>, pglibber@uk.oracle.com (Peter Glibbery) says: > >You'r kidding us, right Peter? Playing a little "see who will respond" game? Ok! you got one, me. Butch From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!tonto-slip3.cis.brown.edu!user From: ap201002 (Steve Thompson) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: What kind of coax do I need? Date: 8 Aug 1995 13:04:58 GMT Organization: Brown University -- Providence, Rhode Island USA Lines: 7 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: tonto-slip3.cis.brown.edu I have two scanners hooked up to a discone antenna on my roof, requiring 75 feet of cable. I primarily want to listen to the military aviation band 225-400mhz and want to receive signals from Otis AFB approx 45 miles away. Is RG-8 good enough for my needs or do I need better, of course I'd like to have minimal signal loss. Your imput will be of great help. Steve From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:20 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: What kind of coax do I need? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 01:30:14 GMT Lines: 25 Steve Thompson (ap201002) wrote: : I have two scanners hooked up to a discone antenna on my roof, requiring : 75 feet of cable. I primarily want to listen to the military aviation band : 225-400mhz and want to receive signals from Otis AFB approx 45 miles away. : Is RG-8 good enough for my needs or do I need better, of course I'd like : to have minimal signal loss. Your imput will be of great help. : Steve TIP: Take your scanner up on the roof and connect it directly to the antenna to see if you can pick up Otis before you haul off and invest in expensive cable. If you can't hear it, don't bother buying the fancy stuff. If you can hear it weakly then you better get some good stuff. Try 9913. This coax uses 9ga copper center conductor and has lower loss than RG8. They make a flexible version also. The real 9913 is so stiff that it will support your antenna without a tower! 73 :-) -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:21 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What kind of coax do I need? Date: 9 Aug 1995 03:34:57 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 8 Distribution: world Message-ID: <409ad1$sms@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , Steve Ellington wrote: >The real 9913 is so stiff that it will support your antenna without a tower! Hey Steve, I tried it and now my ground plane is a top hat. :-) 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Where to buy: Those lamps... Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 03:49:37 GMT Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: <406ni1$jhr@nuclear.microserve.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 depaul@spk.hp.com (Marc DePaul) wrote: >Where do you buy/replace those little lamps in the SB1000...WHat will >act as a replacement? How about the FT101E or the '830? Audio/video service companies have access to miniature wire lead and bi-pin lamps in a variety of voltage and current ratings. Most of them use suppliers like MCM Elctronics and CEI (Consolidated Electronics). I don't have the addresses anymore, but a shop in your area should be able to help. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:23 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!crash!galaxy.cts.com!quasar From: quasar@cts.com (Stephen F.) Subject: Re: Where to buy: Those lamps... Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:01:37 GMT Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4] References: Sender: news@crash.cts.com (news subsystem) Nntp-Posting-Host: galaxy.cts.com Lines: 22 In article depaul@spk.hp.com (Marc DePaul) writes: >From: depaul@spk.hp.com (Marc DePaul) >Subject: Where to buy: Those lamps... >Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 18:38:51 GMT >Hello. >Where do you buy/replace those little lamps in the SB1000...WHat will >act as a replacement? How about the FT101E or the '830? >Thanks, >Marc :You might try Radio Shack. I had an '830 long ago and the panel light behind :the meter was just a "grain-of-wheat" light. They sell 'em at Radio Shack. :The voltage ought to be 6.3V?? Check it with a meter. 73 - Steve in San Diego, CA From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!vax2.concordia.ca!hirschj From: hirschj@vax2.concordia.ca (JACK HIRSCHBERG) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: where to get air gap variable capacitors Date: 8 Aug 1995 15:50 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 7 Distribution: world Message-ID: <8AUG199515502767@vax2.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: vax2.concordia.ca NNTP-Posting-User: HIRSCHJ News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 where does one get these things. I need one to make a good loop antenna for am dxing. can anyone tell me also how to substitute a varicap for the capacitor if i can't find the value i'm looking for? Thanks, --jack From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuhou.aloha.net!usenet From: swt@aloha.net (Steve W. Teegarden) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Windows Logbook Shareware at FTP site Date: 9 Aug 1995 06:17:10 GMT Organization: Hawaii OnLine - Honolulu, HI Lines: 39 Message-ID: <409jt6$hso@nuhou.aloha.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: oahu-5.u.aloha.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.11 In article , ad4rk@nando.net says... > > >I have uploaded the latest version of the AD4RK Logbook for Windows shareware >(version 2.1). The FTP site is > > oak.oakland.edu > >and the path is > > pub3/hamradio/pc/logging/logbook.zip. > >You can get to this FTP site on the WWW at the Boston Amateur Radio Club FTP >archive. Many thanks to Scott Ehrlich! > >Please give the logbook a try. Suggestions for improvements are welcome. >Respond to ad4rk@nando.net. > >Thanks for your interest! 73 > > > > Well I have an improvement for your review.... The install program doesn't work, and there is a file missing. It's called MSAJT11.DLL and was not in ANY of the disk ZIP files , or created anywhere. I downloaded that monster 2 MEG file 3 times to check it on three different machines, and then sent you mail asking for help... No reply from you, so I'll post here in case someone else has encountered the same problems... If you get around to fixing it, it might be nice to have the "Fix" located on the FTP site you listed above... Steve WH6IC From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.cerf.net!nntp-server.caltech.edu!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!newshost.lanl.gov!usenet From: Gerald Schmitt Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Windows Logbook Shareware at FTP site Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 08:30:50 MST Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Lines: 7 Message-ID: <40akhk$bn9@newshost.lanl.gov> References: <409jt6$hso@nuhou.aloha.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ggspc.lanl.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Steve, I had similar problems and gave up but I am still uninstalling. Not worth the trouble IMHO. 73 de Jerry From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 10 14:29:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: Listserv@ucsd (Mailing List Processor) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: your LISTSERV request "help with 2m lpf in series" Date: 9 Aug 95 14:41:59 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 3 Message-ID: <199508091441.HAA00901@mail.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu The mailing list "with" could not be found. You may use the INDEX command to get a listing of available mailing lists. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!li.net!adruda From: adruda@newshost.li.net (Andy Druda) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: *Stealth Operating* Date: 12 Aug 1995 14:45:45 GMT Organization: LI Net (Long Island Network) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <40ieqp$evg@linet02.li.net> References: <4092t7$2bl6@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> <40em44$fbs@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: linet01.li.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] WA6UBE (wa6ube@aol.com) wrote: : You can have great results on the lower amateur bands ( 40/80 meters) with : horizontal dipole antennas as close to the ground as six feet .. On 40 : meters, the difference in performance can be as little as 4 or 5 dB in : comparison to a 40 meter dipole that is 30 feet off the ground.. since 4 : to 5 dB is less than one "S-Unit", and closer to the ground also means : less reception of man-made noise in some cases, the results can indeed be : surprizing .. : 73- : Patricia Gibbons - wa6ube .. : WA6UBE@aol.com "The Vertical Skywave Girl" You think no one will notice that six foot dipole? Andy From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: v31ry@aol.com (V31RY) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: *Stealth Operating* Date: 13 Aug 1995 11:37:57 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 16 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40l68l$84d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4092t7$2bl6@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> Reply-To: v31ry@aol.com (V31RY) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com From: BDCX79B@prodigy.com (Daniel Bersak) >My family was recently forced to relocate. we moved into a very nice >house that my mother designed and built. She is now denying me access >to the roof and the back yard as far as antennas go. Does anyone have any >tips as to how to operate high power DX stealthily without frying myself?? How about an attic dipole?? Make one with legs for as many bands as you want to operate (and will fit across the attic), and feed it with some kind of balanced line, connected to a good quality tuner.. I've worked RTTY-DXCC and RTTY-WAS in 2 years from my attic, running 100w.. You don't need high power for DXing!! Good Luck! Glenn AE0Q/V31RY ex: WA0VPK, GM5BKC, ZB2WZ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:28 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!dd650 From: dd650@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Drew Loker) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2m/70mm car antenna too close to radio antenna?? Date: 14 Aug 1995 04:28:12 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <40mjcs$ofb@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kanga.ins.cwru.edu I think I have accidently mounted the two antennas too close to each other. They are about 3" apart. At the time, I was thinking that it would great to have them next to each othe, rather than have on on each side. They are mounted right next ot the engin hood. The problem is that when I xmit on 2m, it creats a loud sound on the radio if it is on. It even does it if I am listening to a CD. For the time being, I have been just turning off the radio completely before xmiting. I was considering moving the antenna to the other side, but was wondering if this would solve the problem, or if I was still going ot have this problem even on the other side? If so, then I don't want to mess with moving it, not tom mention the holes I already drilled for the trunk lip mount. BTW, I have not tried to xmit on 440 to see if it is also a problem. ANy suggestions? Thanks!! Drew Loker, loker@tenet.edu From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:28 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/8 wave vs. J-pole Date: 12 Aug 1995 12:11:52 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 16 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40ijs8$hs9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >So, I should add radials to my 5/8 J-pole? Where would they go? At the base >of the "J", or at the top of the matching section? Neither really seems right. >Greg KO6TH Greg, The problem is the radials have to be very dense (many of them) and very long (maybe ten feet or more). That's a lot of work for a few dB. On the other hand a few 1/4 wl radials will help decouple the feedline if placed at the feedpoint connection and connected to the shield of the feedline. Tom From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:29 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.magg.net!news From: "Terrence R. Redding" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info Date: 12 Aug 1995 19:54:12 GMT Organization: M.A.G. Information Services (MAGG.NET) Lines: 11 Message-ID: <40j0t4$9pm@grumpy.magg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wpb-109.magg.net I've located a tower, at subject, but know nothing about it. Has anyone seen or heard of the 70' Rohn crankup/foldover tower? I will have to drive 3,000 miles round trip to get it and pay about $1,500 for it. It comes with a HamIV and HAM-M rotor and also a non-working TailTwister rotor, plus a TH6DXX beam. All comments aprreciated. Thanks, Terry WB5LMJ @ WB4MOZ.FL.USA.NA From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.isl.net!usenet From: gbaron@sparc.isl.net (Gilbert Baron) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 23:47:33 GMT Organization: Information Superhighways Limited Lines: 33 Message-ID: <40jfo3$3v@news.isl.net> References: <40j0t4$9pm@grumpy.magg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sparc.isl.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99.82 "Terrence R. Redding" wrote: >I've located a tower, at subject, but know nothing about it. >Has anyone seen or heard of the 70' Rohn crankup/foldover tower? >I will have to drive 3,000 miles round trip to get it and pay >about $1,500 for it. It comes with a HamIV and HAM-M rotor and also >a non-working TailTwister rotor, plus a TH6DXX beam. >All comments aprreciated. Thanks, Terry >WB5LMJ @ WB4MOZ.FL.USA.NA I had that tower for 23 years before I moved. It is very sturdy and a good tower. I think that you are paying too much for a used tower. I sold mine for 500. That was a bargain of course and no rotator or beam. If the beam and rotator are in good shape maybe it is fair but the 1500 mile trip will cost you. You need a LOT to haul it. The disadvantage is that it requires guying at two heights. It is guyed at the fold and the top. It takes 8 guys. It served me well but I doubt I would buy another. It cost me 400 delivered but that was many years ago. BE CAREFUL taking it down. When taking mine down the fold over folded when not ready and almost knocked someone of of the tower. IT SI DANEROUS. Much more in taking down than putting up. Gil Baron W0MN gbaron@sparc.isl.net, finger for my pgp key "Bailar es vivir" pgp2.6 key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html "Cuatro caminos hay en mi vida. Cual de los cuatro sera el mejor" [Posted with Agent .99. For info, email agent-info@forteinc.com.] From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!usenet From: jbmitch@vt.edu (jbmitch) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info Date: 13 Aug 1995 14:47:48 GMT Organization: Virginia Tech/Blacksburg Electronic Village Lines: 10 Message-ID: <40l3ak$9ji@solaris.cc.vt.edu> References: <40j0t4$9pm@grumpy.magg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jbmitch.beva.blacksburg.va.us X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1 In article <40j0t4$9pm@grumpy.magg.net>, "Terrence R. Redding" says: >Has anyone seen or heard of the 70' Rohn crankup/foldover tower? >All comments aprreciated. Thanks, Terry >WB5LMJ @ WB4MOZ.FL.USA.NA You might ask if the tower is built of 25 or 45 sections; Rohn offers both. The 45 is much heavier duty. I believe the tilt over is an excellent design, particularly if you don't like climbing towers. (who does?) In short, probably too much money for the 25, but not bad if it's 45. 73, John From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: Jim.Hansen@stpete.honeywell.COM (Hansen, James K (FL40)) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info Date: 14 Aug 95 20:05:00 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 42 Message-ID: <302FAEB9@vax-flcgr.stpete.honeywell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu >I've located a tower, at subject, but know nothing about it. > >Has anyone seen or heard of the 70' Rohn crankup/foldover tower? If my memory serves me, this is not a self supporting tower. You should verify this point. A self supporting tower is much easier to put up in a typical city lot! >I will have to drive 3,000 miles round trip to get it and pay >about $1,500 for it. It comes with a HamIV and HAM-M rotor and also >a non-working TailTwister rotor, plus a TH6DXX beam. About 7 years ago I purchased a new Telex-HiGain HD70 tower. It is self supporting, 20' when down, 70' when up. This tower is aesthetically better than most due to the lack of guy wires and the fact that I hid it directly behind my chimney. This was an important consideration towards obtaining the variance to the deed restriction. For less than $100 I constructed a derrick which gave me the foldover feature. The derrick attached to the mounting feed and did not utilize a counterpoise. The commercially available kit for folding the tower up required a counterpoise, which was not possible due to the fact that the tower had to tilt town away from the house and was only 1' from the house. I believe that the fold over feature could be added to almost any self supporting crank-up tower as I did to mine. However, make sure of the structural integrity of such a modification. I performed an engineering analysis to verify the integrity of the derrick I built and also verified that the shear stress on the bolts where within a safe margin. I purchased my tower new at a time when Telex-HiGain was offering a free antenna with the purchase of a tower, rotator, and stand-off brackets. I have got the TH7DX and tail twister in the package for something like $3000 to $4000. If the tower you are thinking of is self supporting, the price is fair. However, I know of others who have obtained 50' crank up towers for as little as $400. But then again, how long do you want to shop for that kind of deal? Personally I would have to be in a very hard spot to consider letting mine go for less than $2000! Jim WD0DIA From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!dd650 From: dd650@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Drew Loker) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 70cm sets off sensor light?? Date: 14 Aug 1995 04:32:07 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) Lines: 8 Message-ID: <40mjk7$os1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kanga.ins.cwru.edu I have an external antenna at about 25', which is about 30 feet away from a motion sensor flood light int he back yard. WHen I xmit on any 70cm freq, it is setting the sensor light off. Is there anything I can do about this? Moving either is not really an option. Thanks!! Drew Loker, loker@tenet.edu From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!bman.uucom.com!ns1.iamerica.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!mhv.net!usenet From: "Bruce J. Goldstein" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 70cm sets off sensor light?? Date: 14 Aug 1995 14:26:34 GMT Organization: MHVNet, the Mid Hudson Valley's Internet connection Lines: 40 Message-ID: <40nmeq$so2@over.mhv.net> References: <40mjk7$os1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulster-port5.mhv.net dd650@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Drew Loker) wrote: > > > I have an external antenna at about 25', which is about 30 feet away > from a motion sensor flood light int he back yard. WHen I xmit on any > 70cm freq, it is setting the sensor light off. Is there anything I can do > about this? Moving either is not really an option. > > Thanks!! > Drew Loker, loker@tenet.edu For whatever it is worth. My motion sensors are set off by just about anything but 2 meters. HF is really bad. I have thought about ferrite beads on the ac lines but most of the lights are in positions where getting to the ac would be impossible. My utimate solution was: 1. Lose my job (downsizing!) 2. Sell my house 3. Hope my next abode is better. 4. Know anyone wanting a software project manager, QA leader, system programmer, system tester, or technical writer? Sorry, I can not be any more helpful. - WA3AFS From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:34 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!venus.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!centralnews1.Central.Sun.COM!sunicnc.France.Sun.COM!smckinty From: smckinty@sunicnc.France.Sun.COM (Steve McKinty - SunSoft ICNC Grenoble) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: ? LongWave (198kHz) antenna Date: 14 Aug 1995 13:46:29 GMT Organization: SunConnect Lines: 35 Sender: smckinty@hardy (Steve McKinty - SunSoft ICNC Grenoble) Distribution: world Message-ID: <40nk3l$f43@centralnews1.Central.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.france.sun.com I know that isn't an amateur band, but I'd appreciate any help, most of my antenna experiments have been VHF, not HF. I live in SE France, and my girlfriend has recently moved to an apartment at about 800m ASL. On a small portable radio the BBC signal on 198kHz is faint, but audible. Not really a usable signal. On a car radio outside, and on an inexpensive HiFi tuner (both digital, probably with broadband untuned front ends) there is a signal present, but the content can't be distinguished. What I'm trying to find for her is an antenna which will lift the signal far enough out of the noise to be at least usable for news, even if not of especially great quality. I'd prefer not to modify the radios (or replace them with expensive GC receivers!), at least to start with, so I'm looking for suggestions for a reasonable LW antenna. 'reasonable' has to mean not too obtrusive, I might get away with an internal longwire along a wall, or an external one across the eaves. Any suggestions on dimensions, tuning, and any other hints (including RTFM pointers) would be welcome. Would replacing the HiFi tuner's loop with a ferrite rod antenna help? Thanks Steve F5VCG -- Steve McKinty | Sun Microsystems ICNC | 38240 Meylan, France | email: smckinty@france.sun.com | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Antenna spark problem Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:43:34 GMT Message-ID: <473213044-950811084334@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 37 -> Path: global.gc.net!athos.itribe.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.primene -> usenet -> From: thomasj@primenet.com (Jeffrey Thomas) -> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna -> Lines: 10 -> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip167.fhu.primenet.com -> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99.82 -> -> I live in SE Arizona. During the monsoon season (now) every evening -> we experience a large amount of storms and electricity in the sky. I -> have 2 antennas, a beam and a G5RV. I disconnect the coax's from th -> switch box prior to each storm and can watch the cable emit a spark -> from the connector. Is there a way I can eliminate this? -> -> Any help is appreciated. -> -> Jeff -> What you are doing is VERY Dangerous. Before a storm, if you disconnect your antenna lead, make sure you GROUND the coax, BOTH the shield and the center conductor. Voltage on a open coax during a storm can also be high enough to arc through the dielectric insulaton between the coax shield and center conductor and ruin your coax. Again, NEVER NEVER DISCONNECT A TRANSMISSION LINE BEFORE A STORM OR DURING A STORM AND LEAVE IT OPEN. SOMEONE CAN BE KILLED OR DAMAGE CAN OCCUR. **********ALWAYS GROUND AN OPEN TRANSMISSION LINE, BOTH THE CENTER CONDUCTOR AND THE SHIELD.************* I sure hope someone learns from this message. Jim Wooddell, WA6OFT jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:36 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!darwin.sura.net!fconvx.ncifcrf.gov!mack From: mack@ncifcrf.gov (Joe Mack) Subject: Re: Antenna spark problem Message-ID: Organization: Frederick Cancer Research and Development Center References: <40empe$dh0@nnrp3.primenet.com> <1995Aug11.154419.8082@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 02:54:22 GMT Lines: 16 In article <1995Aug11.154419.8082@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) writes: >In article <40empe$dh0@nnrp3.primenet.com> thomasj@primenet.com (Jeffrey Thomas) writes: >>I live in SE Arizona. During the monsoon season (now) every evening >>we experience a large amount of storms and electricity in the sky. I >>have 2 antennas, a beam and a G5RV. I disconnect the coax's from the >>switch box prior to each storm and can watch the cable emit a spark >>from the connector. Is there a way I can eliminate this? Do you have a direct DC path from your antenna to ground? This will eliminate static build up (and associated RF noise from corona discharge) in the antenna. A big toroid on the antenna side of the tuner is the sort of thing I'm thinking of. Joe NA3T From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 04:44:17 GMT Lines: 17 Message-ID: <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: >Radio Works also makes a choke balun that can be placed anywhere >along the coax. I've always believed that connecting coax to a 1/2 wave dipole without installing a balun at the center can cause significant skewing of the pattern. If a choke balun is located at the opposite end of the feedline (near the transmitter), does that alleviate this problem? Isn't the dipole still being driven by an unbalanced feed? 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.cerf.net!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!not-for-mail From: turner@safety.ics.uci.edu (Clark Savage Turner) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 11 Aug 1995 23:53:57 -0700 Organization: UC Irvine Department of ICS Lines: 18 Message-ID: <40hj65$gm@safety.ics.uci.edu> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: safety.ics.uci.edu In <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: >I've always believed that connecting coax to a 1/2 wave dipole without >installing a balun at the center can cause significant skewing of the >pattern. I always wondered why I would worry about the pattern of my 1/2 wave dipole. I figure that the building proximity, height above ground and stuff would affect it enough, and, besides, the dipole is essentially omni directional anyway. I suspect that a big beam might need the balun to keep the integrity of the pattern because that is the point of the beam. I am afraid of the losses in a balun, especially when using an antenna on many bands where SWR can get a little wild at the balun/feedpoint. No antenna expert here, just my gut feeling. Clark WA3JPG From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:38 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 15:36:03 GMT Lines: 30 : I've always believed that connecting coax to a 1/2 wave dipole without : installing a balun at the center can cause significant skewing of the : pattern. : If a choke balun is located at the opposite end of the feedline (near : the transmitter), does that alleviate this problem? Isn't the dipole : still being driven by an unbalanced feed? : 73, : Jack WB3U Here's a hot one for ya. Coax is really balanced. The current on the center conductor is balanced against the current on the inside of the outer conductor. Problems only arrise when the outside of the shield picks up signal. This can be avoided by cutting the coax to a non-resonant length and dropping it down at right angels to the antenna. A balun at the antenna doesn't stop this from happening. As long as the antenna is resonant and matches the feed line, a 1:1 balun won't do beans. Got Rf on the coax getting into the shack and biteing your lips? Choke it out with an in-line current choke before it gets into the shack. That's why I mentioned the radio Works current choke. -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 12 Aug 1995 17:51:04 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 32 Message-ID: <40ipm8$ast@maureen.teleport.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx2-47.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) writes: ; Recently I have been testing several different 1/2 wave dipole antennas ; with and without 1:1 baluns. ; Because things are never perfect....like swr, coax length, etc., I'd ; like to know some educated thoughts on why I should use a 1:1 balun ; instead of connecting a 50 ohm coax directly to a center fed 1/2 wave ; dipole. I can choke off the current flow in the outside conductor ; with several turns of coax at the feed point. ; jim.w@racebbs.com ; RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider ; Jim, see "Some Aspects of the Balun Problem", QST, March 1983, p. 38 "Baluns: What They Do and How They Do It", The Arrl Antenna Compendium, Vol. 1, p. 157 or the ARRL Handbook back to 1992 or so (see the index under "baluns"). These all explain what baluns do. 73, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com [Beginning August 17, any other of my Internet addresses will be invalid.] From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:40 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug12.183006.14348@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <40hj65$gm@safety.ics.uci.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:30:06 GMT Lines: 16 In article <40hj65$gm@safety.ics.uci.edu> turner@safety.ics.uci.edu (Clark Savage Turner) writes: >I always wondered why I would worry about the pattern of my 1/2 wave dipole. >No antenna expert here, just my gut feeling. Your gut is pretty smart. The only thing a balun buys you with a typical HF dipole is perhaps keeping RF from backing up into the shack, IE the hot mike syndrome. If you don't have that problem, a balun is just a nuisance, and another loss term. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:40 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 14:50:21 GMT Message-ID: <788176772-950812075021@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 46 -> -> n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: -> -> >Radio Works also makes a choke balun that can be placed anywhere -> >along the coax. -> -> I've always believed that connecting coax to a 1/2 wave dipole withou -> installing a balun at the center can cause significant skewing of the -> pattern. I' ve tried this both ways and could not tell any difference in pattern.. although I never put any real test equipment on to test for this. -> If a choke balun is located at the opposite end of the feedline (near -> the transmitter), does that alleviate this problem? Isn't the dipole -> still being driven by an unbalanced feed? -> -> 73, -> -> Jack WB3U I wonder if you can really consider putting chokes on the outside of a coax a true balun. They will stop the current flow on the shield, but this is only one purpose of a true balun???? On another note about baluns... In a perfect situation, the balun, is a 1:1 device to match an unbalanced 50 ohm (nominal) coax to a 50 ohm (nominal) dipole that is perfectly set-up as far as hight above ground, perfectly horizontal, and has the correct electrical length of coax (in 1/2 wave lengths) installed. When is this ever a true case? I am finding in my portable installation the impedence of my centerfed antennas are lower than 50 ohms, due to the ends of the antenna being lower than the feed point and being close to ground. I am now wanting to build a balun to have 0.5:1 or .75:1 ratio to see if that will cure my constant reflected power I am seeing. I figure if my tuner can tune it out, I too, should be able to. To prove that I am correct, I am going to set up my antenna, test it and set my tuner for 0 reflected power. Then, I'll start trying dummy loads with variable resistance to determine just what the antenna, coax and balun actually look like. Jim Wooddell jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:41 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 13 Aug 1995 04:17:19 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: <40jucf$2mq@maureen.teleport.com> References: <788176772-950812075021@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx7-34.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) ; jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) writes: ; ; . . . ; I wonder if you can really consider putting chokes on the outside of ; a coax a true balun. They will stop the current flow on the shield, ; but this is only one purpose of a true balun???? ; ;. . . Yes. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:41 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 13 Aug 1995 05:06:49 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 24 Message-ID: <40k199$4hj@maureen.teleport.com> References: <40jucf$2mq@maureen.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx9-31.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) : w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) writes: : ; jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) writes: : ; : ; . . . : : ; I wonder if you can really consider putting chokes on the outside of : ; a coax a true balun. They will stop the current flow on the shield, : ; but this is only one purpose of a true balun???? : ; : ;. . . : : Yes. : : Roy Lewallen, W7EL : w7el@teleport.com Some days are like that. I meant, Stopping the current flow in the shield *is* the one purpose of a true balun. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:42 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 16:24:03 GMT Lines: 23 Message-ID: <808331847.9553@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <40hj65$gm@safety.ics.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 turner@safety.ics.uci.edu (Clark Savage Turner) wrote: >I always wondered why I would worry about the pattern of my 1/2 wave >dipole. I figure that the building proximity, height above ground >and stuff would affect it enough, and, besides, the dipole is >essentially omni directional anyway. Obviously, I can't speak for your particular installation. However, the pattern is essentially 180 deg, not omnidirectional. I have tried to take advantage of that fact when possible. >I am afraid of the losses in a balun, especially when using an >antenna on many bands where SWR can get a little wild at the >balun/feedpoint. Clark, this is absolutely correct and I have long since stopped using baluns with non-resonant antennas. However, the original post did refer to 1/2 wave dipoles. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 16:34:36 GMT Lines: 24 Message-ID: <808332481.9553@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: >Got Rf on the coax getting into the shack and biteing your lips? >Choke it out with an in-line current choke before it gets into the >shack. That's why I mentioned the radio Works current choke. FWIW, I was using ferrites back in the early 70's for this purpose, long before I ever saw anyone else do it. This is certainly a helpful technique, but it does have some of the same drawbacks as baluns, including (sometimes) loss. Anyone who uses this technique should be certain it's not costing them RF on any of the bands of operation. Some of the chokes I've built seemed fine running barefoot, but would get too hot to touch at higher power. This means they're not only capable of choking the RF, but also of absorbing it. This is OK when you need an RFI filter on a power cord, but not on an antenna feedline. The proper solution is to fix the real problem. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!newsfeed.tip.net!usenet From: hermod@sds.se (Hermod Pedersen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 22:48:09 GMT Organization: Sydsvenska Dagbladet, Malmo, Sweden Lines: 29 Message-ID: <40lvlp$bfs@stella.tip.net> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <40f1a2$j1j@antares.lu.erisoft.se> Reply-To: hermod@sds.se NNTP-Posting-Host: a3119.dial.tip.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 gadget@sa.erisoft.se (gadget) wrote: >In article 950809053218@racebbs.com, jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) writes: >>Recently I have been testing several different 1/2 wave dipole antennas >>with and without 1:1 baluns. >>Because things are never perfect....like swr, coax length, etc., I'd >>like to know some educated thoughts on why I should use a 1:1 balun >>instead of connecting a 50 ohm coax directly to a center fed 1/2 wave >>dipole. I can choke off the current flow in the outside conductor >>with several turns of coax at the feed point. >One reason to use a 1:1 balun, could be to have a nice attachment for the >lines in which you hang the dipole. :-) >Since the function of the balun, among other things, would depend on the antenna >being "symmetrical" towards ground (i.e. surrounding objects), I do not believe >that the 1:1 balun ever will be anything else than a good attachment point, and >a possible source for water leakage, and, in the case of baluns wound on a core, >a possible source for imbalance caused by saturation of that core. According to William Orr, in one of his many antenna handbooks, by using a 1:1 balun on a dipole you will get a much more narrow null at the short side of the antenna. Without the balun the dipole tends to become more omnidirectional. Regards, Hermod Pedersen Malmo, Sweden From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 13 Aug 1995 23:29:29 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 44 Message-ID: <40m1sp$9b6@maureen.teleport.com> References: <808332481.9553@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx5-26.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) ; jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: ; n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: ; ; >Got Rf on the coax getting into the shack and biteing your lips? ; >Choke it out with an in-line current choke before it gets into the ; >shack. That's why I mentioned the radio Works current choke. ; ; FWIW, I was using ferrites back in the early 70's for this purpose, ; long before I ever saw anyone else do it. This is certainly a helpful ; technique, but it does have some of the same drawbacks as baluns, ; including (sometimes) loss. ; ; Anyone who uses this technique should be certain it's not costing them ; RF on any of the bands of operation. Some of the chokes I've built ; seemed fine running barefoot, but would get too hot to touch at higher ; power. This means they're not only capable of choking the RF, ; but also of absorbing it. This is OK when you need an RFI filter on a ; power cord, but not on an antenna feedline. ; ; The proper solution is to fix the real problem. ; ; 73, ; ; Jack WB3U ; ;>>> If you're running a kW and can still put your finger on the balun without burning yourself, the loss is negligible from a signal-strength standpoint. Some baluns, like the air-core variety, or ones using 60-series ferrite, have an impedance that's primarily inductive. This is inherently lower loss. In the case of ferrites, it's more difficult to get enough Z with 60-series ferrite. It's relatively easy to get high Z at HF with 70-series ferrites, but the Z is primarily resistive. When using this material, the cause of a excessive loss is that the impedance isn't high enough. The current through the balun is the undesired current on the outside of the coax. If the balun Z is high enough, the current is small (which is what you want) and the balun dissipation is also small. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 04:09:28 GMT Lines: 32 Message-ID: <808374177.23585@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <808360990.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40mca8$gfs@maureen.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) wrote: > If a balun doesn't heat with a kW, it means that it's doing its job >well because it's brought the current to a very low level, that it's >resistive and has very low Z so isn't doing its job well, or that >its Z is primarily inductive and it may or may not be working. You >won't be able to distinguish which is true if heating is your only >means of evalutation. This is all true, but I was referring specifically to losses that can occur within the choke, thus the reference to heat. Personally, I think the other ways in which the choke might not do its job are still reasonably detectable. My initial comments on this were related to the use of the choke when it's located close to the transmitter, in order to eliminate RF on the chassis of the rig ("mic bite"). If the choke isn't doing its job (whether or not it gets hot), the symptoms will probably persist. >If a balun is a "band aid" method of reducing the current on the >outside of the shield to a low value, what's the real "cure"? Referenced to using the choke for the purpose described above, the solution is to perform the unbalanced-to-balanced conversion at the feedpoint of the antenna. That not only presents a more predictable environment for the ferrite, but minimizes radiation from the feedline. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 23:51:04 GMT Lines: 34 Message-ID: <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: >Here's a hot one for ya. Coax is really balanced. The current on the >center conductor is balanced against the current on the inside of the >outer conductor. > >Problems only arise when the outside of the shield picks up signal. Not true. The ARRL Antenna Book explains this best: "A centerfed antenna with open ends, of which the half-wave type is an example, is inherently a balanced radiator. . . . If the antenna is fed at the center through a coaxial line, this balance is upset because one side of the radiator is connected to the shield while the other is connected to the inner conductor. On the side connected to the shield, a current can flow down over the *outside* of the coaxial line. The fields thus set up cannot be canceled by the fields from the inner conductor because the fields *inside* the line cannot escape throught the shielding afforded by the outer conductor. Hence, these "antenna" currents flowing on the outside of the line will be responsible for radiation." I think it is also safe to say that radiation from the coax is also *partly* responsible for the skewed pattern that results when a dipole is fed directly from a coaxial line. So, back to my original question. If the balun is omitted and a shield choke is used instead (at the transmitter end of the feedline), will the radiation pattern still be skewed? 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:47 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 00:29:44 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: <808360990.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <808332481.9553@pinetree.microserve.com> <40m1sp$9b6@maureen.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) wrote: >; jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: >; Anyone who uses this technique should be certain it's not costing >;them RF on any of the bands of operation. Some of the chokes I've >;built seemed fine running barefoot, but would get too hot to touch >;at higher power. This means they're not only capable of choking the >;RF, but also of absorbing it. >If you're running a kW and can still put your finger on the balun >without burning yourself, the loss is negligible from a >signal-strength standpoint. I think someone could take exception to that statement on at least two grounds. The first is that if the ferrite device is large, or the transmit duty cycle low, heating may not be a reliable indicator. Second, I don't know what degree of power loss you have in mind, but my concept of acceptable loss may not be quite the same as yours. Actually, I should have been clearer on this entire point. What I meant was that the power lost in the ferrite when running a KW is easily detected, due to heating. This may not be the case with QRP, or even 100 watts, and the operator may incur losses he's not aware of. This is why I consider these devices to be band aids, and why I dislike them. :) 73 Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:48 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.cerf.net!nntp2.cerf.net!pelican.com!grian!morris From: morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Mike Morris) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug14.014302.27231@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us> Organization: College Park Software, Altadena, CA References: <40jucf$2mq@maureen.teleport.com> <40k199$4hj@maureen.teleport.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 01:43:02 GMT Lines: 40 w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) writes: >: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) writes: >: ; jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) writes: >: ; . . . >: ; I wonder if you can really consider putting chokes on the outside of >: ; a coax a true balun. They will stop the current flow on the shield, >: ; but this is only one purpose of a true balun???? >: ;. . . >: >: Yes. >: Roy Lewallen, W7EL >Some days are like that. I meant, > Stopping the current flow in the shield *is* the one purpose of a true balun. >Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com Speaking of stopping the current flow in the shield.... A friend of mine and I were discussing six meter repeaters the other day, and possible antenna systems that wouldn't need four or six water-heater-sized cavities, and we came up with putting the receive antenna at 120' on the tower, and the transmit antenna at either 40', 60' or 80', whichever would place the RX antenna in a null for the TX antenna. However, he feels that the TX antenna would "warm up" the RX antenna feedline to RF, which would be ducted right into the front end of the receiver by the feedline outer shield. Even with grounding the outer jacket at the building entrance, and using a cavity on the RX, there would still be a unbroken path for RF to the RX chassis. Any ideas? The equipment in question is a 60w Master Pro 6m repeater that is currently being used as a base station... Mike Morris WA6ILQ | All opinions must be my own since nobody PO Box 1130 | pays me enough to be their mouthpiece... Arcadia, CA. 91077 | ICBM: 34-07.9N, 118-03.8W | Reply to: morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us -- From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:49 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 14 Aug 1995 02:15:24 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: <40mbjs$gfs@maureen.teleport.com> References: <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx3-19.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: > . . . > So, back to my original question. If the balun is omitted and a > shield choke is used instead (at the transmitter end of the feedline), > will the radiation pattern still be skewed? > > 73, > > Jack WB3U A "current" or "choke" balun is a shield choke -- no more and no less. It'll frequently do the job if placed somewhere besides the feedpoint, but the effectiveness depends on the length of the feedline and the effective distance from the insertion point to RF ground. In general, it'll do best if placed an integral number of half wavelengths from the feedpoint, but this isn't a hard and fast rule. The one thing you can depend on is that the current on the outside of the shield will be small at the point where the balun (or "choke") is inserted. 73, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 14 Aug 1995 02:27:20 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 53 Message-ID: <40mca8$gfs@maureen.teleport.com> References: <808360990.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx3-19.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) : jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: : w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) wrote: : >; jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: : >; Anyone who uses this technique should be certain it's not costing : >;them RF on any of the bands of operation. Some of the chokes I've : >;built seemed fine running barefoot, but would get too hot to touch : >;at higher power. This means they're not only capable of choking the : >;RF, but also of absorbing it. : >If you're running a kW and can still put your finger on the balun : >without burning yourself, the loss is negligible from a : >signal-strength standpoint : I think someone could take exception to that statement on at least two : grounds. The first is that if the ferrite device is large, or the : transmit duty cycle low, heating may not be a reliable indicator. This is true. : Second, I don't know what degree of power loss you have in mind, but : my concept of acceptable loss may not be quite the same as yours. This is also true. My statement was based on the fact that a 1 dB loss when a kW is being used is about 250 watts. This'll cook any balun. Even 1/10 this amount would get most of them really hot, and I wouldn't consider this amount of loss (0.11 dB) significant -- especially if I had a kW to begin with! But you may. : Actually, I should have been clearer on this entire point. What I : meant was that the power lost in the ferrite when running a KW is : easily detected, due to heating. This may not be the case with QRP, : or even 100 watts, and the operator may incur losses he's not aware : of. This is why I consider these devices to be band aids, and why I : dislike them. :) You could say exactly the same of antenna tuners and quite a number of other circuits. If a balun doesn't heat with a kW, it means that it's doing its job well because it's brought the current to a very low level, that it's resistive and has very low Z so isn't doing its job well, or that its Z is primarily inductive and it may or may not be working. You won't be able to distinguish which is true if heating is your only means of evalutation. If a balun is a "band aid" method of reducing the current on the outside of the shield to a low value, what's the real "cure"? 73, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 14:10:50 GMT Message-ID: <1496753942-950813071050@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 40 -> -> jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) writes: -> ; Recently I have been testing several different 1/2 wave dipole ant -> ; with and without 1:1 baluns. -> ; Because things are never perfect....like swr, coax length, etc., I -> ; like to know some educated thoughts on why I should use a 1:1 balu -> ; instead of connecting a 50 ohm coax directly to a center fed 1/2 w -> ; dipole. I can choke off the current flow in the outside conductor -> ; with several turns of coax at the feed point. -> ; jim.w@racebbs.com -> ; RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Pr -> ; -> -> -> Jim, see -> -> "Some Aspects of the Balun Problem", QST, March 1983, p. 38 -> -> "Baluns: What They Do and How They Do It", The Arrl Antenna Compendiu -> Vol. 1, p. 157 -> -> or the ARRL Handbook back to 1992 or so (see the index under "baluns" -> -> These all explain what baluns do. -> -> 73, -> Roy Lewallen, W7EL Thanks Roy! I understand what they do, I' ve been build them for awhile! However, I must admit my books go way back! I doubt the principles have changed much. In my original post, I think I was looking for real experiences and educated thoughts on why they should be used. I would love to read the articles you mentioned, however. Now just finding them! Jim jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:51 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!bman.uucom.com!ns1.iamerica.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 14 Aug 1995 15:41:18 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 40 Message-ID: <40nqqu$dru@maureen.teleport.com> References: <1995Aug14.014302.27231@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx3-04.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Mike Morris) writes: > . . . > Speaking of stopping the current flow in the shield.... > A friend of mine and I were discussing six meter repeaters the other > day, and possible antenna systems that wouldn't need four or six > water-heater-sized cavities, and we came up with putting the receive > antenna at 120' on the tower, and the transmit antenna at either 40', > 60' or 80', whichever would place the RX antenna in a null for the TX > antenna. However, he feels that the TX antenna would "warm up" the > RX antenna feedline to RF, which would be ducted right into the front > end of the receiver by the feedline outer shield. Even with grounding > the outer jacket at the building entrance, and using a cavity on the RX, > there would still be a unbroken path for RF to the RX chassis. > Any ideas? The equipment in question is a 60w Master Pro 6m repeater > that is currently being used as a base station... In theory, current on the outside of the shield won't get into the second receiver. If the bulkhead grounding is done right, the current will end up on the outside of the bulkhead. Any which would get through should end up on the outside, not inside, of the second receiver if its shielding is good. I presume the tower is metal. If the cable is dressed against the tower, any current on the outside of the cable would also be induced into the tower, which probably (although not certainly) would reduce the current on the outside of the coax by the time it left the tower. If current on the outside of the coax is a problem in cases like this, you can reduce it to a low value by putting 2 or 3 "current" ("choke") baluns at about 1/4 wavelength intervals beginning at the coupling point. 73, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: Jim.Hansen@stpete.honeywell.COM (Hansen, James K (FL40)) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: RE: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 14 Aug 95 20:20:00 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 23 Message-ID: <302FB38C@vax-flcgr.stpete.honeywell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu >Speaking of stopping the current flow in the shield.... >A friend of mine and I were discussing six meter repeaters the other >day, and possible antenna systems that wouldn't need four or six >water-heater-sized cavities, and we came up with putting the receive >antenna at 120' on the tower, and the transmit antenna at either 40', >60' or 80', whichever would place the RX antenna in a null for the TX >antenna. That is the way it used to be done on 2M and 70cm repeaters when the cost of the prohibitive and/or the insertion loss couldn't be tolerated. (The insertion loss of the early duplexers was very high.) >However, he feels that the TX antenna would "warm up" the >RX antenna feed-line to RF, which would be ducted right into the front >end of the receiver by the feed-line outer shield. Even with grounding >the outer jacket at the building entrance, and using a cavity on the RX, >there would still be a unbroken path for RF to the RX chassis. I don't believe this will be a problem assuming the antenna is well matched to the feed line and that the shielding of the feed line is adequate. You could go and continue debating this subject for some time, or you could just try it and proceed from there! From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!stargate!rdixon From: rdixon@stargateacs.ohio-state.edu (Bob Dixon) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 14 Aug 1995 15:35:50 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 22 Sender: rdixon@stargate (Bob Dixon) Message-ID: <40nqgm$iqh@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> References: <3vm10l$bm@news.vcd.hp.com> <1995Aug3.195128.2219@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <3vtet3$4ek@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3vtt94$8pj@ncar.ucar.edu> <401quf$55 <406lr6$pm6@news.halcyon.com> <40dhtg$46s@nnrp1.primenet.com> Reply-To: Bob_Dixon@osu.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: stargate.acs.ohio-state.edu Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84896 rec.radio.amateur.policy:28989 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12893 I believe that these restrictions aften get applied more out of habit and neglect than intention. I used to serve on a local zoning board, and we had to approve or disapprove any new housing development in our area. One of the things we looked at was the CCRs. To a great extent, these were often just boilerplate that was very repetitive from one development to another, even though they were from different developers. I suspect the developers just use some standard CCRs they get from their own "Developers Association" or whatever, and make a few additions of their own at the end. The zoning board really had no grounds to force changes in the CCRs unless they were in conflict with the zoning code or master plan or other applicable regulations. So there was nothing I could do to get the antenna restrictions taken out. I believe the only way to prevent these antenna CCRs in the future is to work with the "Developers Associations" at the national or state levels, and convince them to remove or modify them in their standard boilerplate. Otherwise developers will just continue to take the course of least resistance and use the typical CCR document and not even think much about its content. Bob W8ERD From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!gwen.pcug.co.uk!kate.ibmpcug.co.uk!gbscomms!gordy Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <906@gbscomms.win-uk.net> Reply-To: gordy@gbscomms.win-uk.net (Gordon B. Slater) From: gordy@gbscomms.win-uk.net (Gordon B. Slater) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 09:36:22 GMT Subject: COCO analysis reqd Lines: 7 Hi can anyone point me to analytical data on the COCO (coaxial-colinear) antenna? TIA Gordy -- Caution: Keys now changed at random security intervals. Contact for current armoured transport file. "You are reminded that this is an insecure circuit. The use of names, ranks and classified information is forbidden." From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.campus.mci.net!calweb!web1.calweb.com!dlangley From: dlangley@web1.calweb.com (Doug Langley) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: cubical quad plans Date: 13 Aug 1995 20:43:02 GMT Organization: Calweb Lines: 8 Message-ID: <40lo4m$8g8@calweb.calweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: web1.calweb.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Does anyone have plans for the cubicle quad they could send me? I had all the formulas a few years back and seem to have lost them. Any help would be greatly appreciated. P.S. I'm looking for the specs for 2m, 220 and 440. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: cubical quad plans Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 02:00:33 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <40lo4m$8g8@calweb.calweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: Doug Langley Doug Langley writes: >Does anyone have plans for the cubicle quad they could send me? I had all >the formulas a few years back and seem to have lost them. Any help would be >greatly appreciated. > >P.S. I'm looking for the specs for 2m, 220 and 440. From ARRL Antenna Book #17, page 18-30....Reflector 1046.8/F-MHz, DE 985.5/F-MHz, Directors 973.3/F-MHz......spacing is: 16" from Ref. to DE, 13 inches fro DE to Dir and 13 from dir to next director....formula is for 146 MHz....I imagine that it would scale to the other bands you want. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:55 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 15:44:13 GMT Lines: 24 I'll make you'all a bet. Take any of these expensive multiband verticals and compare them to the following antenna and I just bet you can't tell the difference. Take wire or aluminum or copper pipe or whatever and make a vertical stick the same length as your $300 vertical. Feed it with open wire line and a tuner. That's right. Hang a 25ft vertical dipole from a tree, wooden pole or tape the wire to a fiberglass fishing pole and stick it on your roof, whatever. Feed it with 300 ohm, 450 ohm or lamp cord, whatever. Want some radials? Fine, use some wire and make them all the same length. Use a tuner and presto, instant multiband antenna. I just betya the losses in that tuner and feeder are less than in the traps of some verticals. Have fun -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:56 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!usenet From: DB Wilhelm Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: 13 Aug 1995 01:53:26 GMT Organization: News & Observer Public Access Lines: 48 Message-ID: <40jlum$nug@parsifal.nando.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vyger409.nando.net n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: > > I'll make you'all a bet. > > Take any of these expensive multiband verticals and compare them to the > following antenna and I just bet you can't tell the difference. > > Take wire or aluminum or copper pipe or whatever and make a vertical > stick the same length as your $300 vertical. Feed it with open wire line > and a tuner. > > That's right. Hang a 25ft vertical dipole from a tree, wooden pole or > tape the wire to a fiberglass fishing pole and stick it on your roof, > whatever. Feed it with 300 ohm, 450 ohm or lamp cord, whatever. Want some > radials? Fine, use some wire and make them all the same length. Use a > tuner and presto, instant multiband antenna. > > I just betya the losses in that tuner and feeder are less than in the > traps of some verticals. > > Have fun > -- > Steve > n4lq@iglou.com > > I second that. I have been a follower of some of the work W8JK has done in the past, and I believe that much of his work points out the philosophy that - if you feed it right with low loss line, and you can get power to it, it will radiate. IMHO the real key to success with an antenna is to keep the feedline loss low. Many of the designs W8JK used called for 24 foot elements and were optimized for 20, 15 and 10 meters. They would also work on 40 with some sacrifice in efficiency, and in a pinch, I have loaded them on 80 too, but that is pushing it. The bottom line is: If you can feed a 24 foot element, it will radiate just as good as any other 24 foot element. I admit that there may be some things that could be done (such as top loading) to increase the current density in the radiating element thereby increasing the efficiency, The latter is not the usual case, particularly in some of the multi-band vertical designs that I have seen. 73 de W3FPR Don From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 22:32:42 GMT Lines: 19 Message-ID: <808353989.15819@pinetree.microserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: >I'll make you'all a bet. > >Take any of these expensive multiband verticals and compare them to >the following antenna and I just bet you can't tell the difference. >I just betya the losses in that tuner and feeder are less than in the >traps of some verticals. If the antenna/feedline you described is fed directly from a tuner with a balun at the output, losses on at least one or two bands is likely to be very high. Unless you exclude this configuration, you'll probably lose your bet. :) 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!gwen.pcug.co.uk!kate.ibmpcug.co.uk!gbscomms!gordy Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <913@gbscomms.win-uk.net> References: Reply-To: gordy@gbscomms.win-uk.net (Gordon B. Slater) From: gordy@gbscomms.win-uk.net (Gordon B. Slater) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:42:21 GMT Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Lines: 7 In article , Steve Ellington (n4lq@iglou.iglou.com) writes: >I'll make you'all a bet. no thanks, I reckon you're taking pocket money from kids :) IMHO yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, .......... -- Caution: Keys now changed at random security intervals. Contact for current armoured transport file. "You are reminded that this is an insecure circuit. The use of names, ranks and classified information is forbidden." From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 20:08:05 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vdec2$o2i@newshost.lanl.gov> <3vdrdh$74u@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vh6rr$56l@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1g.delphi.com X-To: writes: >In an earlier article, Kurt said that a square antenna is always better >than a dipole. I challenged him to come up with a square that will >outperform my 88ft dipole on 20m *and* 17m (2 lobes@9dbi and 4 lobes@ >8dbi respectively). I haven't heard anything from him. You have said many times that WR or later KNS "stretches the truth and you give your answer to his statement as your version of the proof or the truth. NOT a dipole to start with. Here: "It is a collinear dipole, although it can't rightfully be called a dipole because each half of its length is greatervthan 1/2 WL (each half is actually 0.64WL). This means that is has a reversal of current flow in each antenna half, and therefore has more than two "poles". Thus, your antenna is not a dipole at all. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:51:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!DIALix!brisbane.DIALix.oz.au!not-for-mail From: mkelly@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au (Murray Kelly) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ferrite bead any good for antenna Date: 12 Aug 1995 18:55:03 +1000 Organization: DIALix Services, Brisbane, Australia. Lines: 17 Sender: mkelly@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au Message-ID: <40hq97$sp0$1@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au> References: <40b1o2$iub@post.gsfc.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: mkelly@brisbane.dialix.oz.au kirk@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov (Robert Kirk) writes: >I just got a new computer that came with a ferrite bead to clamp >around the video cable for certain monitors. I don't need it for >my monitor, so is there any good use I can put it to? Would it >help at the junction of the coax to my roll-up 2M Jpole? Anything >else? I hate to throw gear away. >Bob Kirk >N3OZB Despite the 'gain sayer' the ferrite will stop RF even tho it was sold to stop much lower freqs. It will decouple the feeder on your 2m antenna. Murray Kelly. vk4aok. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: audi4don@ix.netcom.com (Donald W. Culpepper) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: G5RV antenna inquiry. Date: 14 Aug 1995 01:54:30 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 4 Message-ID: <40macm$nrn@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-jac2-01.ix.netcom.com If anyone has experience using a G5RV type dipole for SWL DX for the 16m - 49m bands I'd appreciate your info. It almost seems too simple a design to be a multiband. But that's what Joseph Carr, MSEE, calls it. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:00 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40macm$nrn@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 22:03:42 GMT Lines: 13 Donald W. Culpepper (audi4don@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : If anyone has experience using a G5RV type dipole for SWL DX for the : 16m - 49m bands I'd appreciate your info. It almost seems too simple a : design to be a multiband. But that's what Joseph Carr, MSEE, calls it. The whole G5RV thing is bunk. For SWL's any length dipole longer than about 50ft will give great results. Feed it with 300 ohm twin lead and use a cheapo tuner to peak it up. -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: jlb@earthlink.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: GAP Antennas Date: 12 Aug 1995 07:45:24 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Lines: 48 Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu Message-ID: <199508121250.FAA08696@atlas.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu I have read a lot of posts in this newsgroups about how poorly their GAP antennas perform and quite frankly am puzzled. I own 2 GAP antennas. I bought a DX-V when they first came out, installed in per the directions and have been working DX with 100 watts ever since. I became interested in 40m, 80m, and 160m and bought the DX-IV shortly after it came out and again I was more than pleased. I still use both antennas regularly and can't figure out why these antennas get such a bad rap. The Old Timers object to the claim that the GAP design eliminates ground losses. I am not an engineer so I don't know if it is true or not. The newer hams are disappointed that the antenna doesn't work when it is mounted between their apartmenthouse and the neighbor's metal garden shed. (What antenna will?) Of all the people who have complained how many have followed the set-up instructions and if they had a problem called GAP and talked to one of the techs or the owner? And how many think that they followed the instructions but haven't really? I have found the GAP antennas to be unusual antennas because through experience I have found that the angle of radiation is so low. Many times I have worked DX that others could not hear and had to tape record the QSO to prove it to others. And I think the the low angle is causing many people to say that the antennas do not work. If the band is not open for DX you won"t hear anything. If I want to ragchew I can't do it with either of my GAP antennas. Instead I use a regular size G5RV. When I do work DX often times the DX op will say that I am the only stateside signal that is coming through. To give a blanced view I will say that yes the GAP antennas do have weaknesses that are a result of compromises that the designer decided to trade off. For instance my DX-V works best on 10m through 20m. I have worked DX on 40m and 80m but not as regularly. With the DX-IV I do work DX regularly on 40m and 80m. 160m is another matter. Considering the size of an antenna that is needed to put a signal on 160m I feel fortunate to be on the band at all. And no I do not work DX regularly on 160m but I do have QSO's on the band. If I didn't have the GAP I would not be on 160m at all. So I am happy. I live in an apartmnet and both GAP's are ground mounted with the feed points located above the building per the instructions. We are nearing the bottom of the sunspot cycle so buying an antenna with a low angle of radiation may not be what you are looking for. GAP antennas are not a fix all for poor band conditions, poor locations, poor installations. Something else that I would like to bring to light is the fact that as Hams we are being hemmed in with antenna restrictions and height restrictions. Why is the Ham community not taking the offensive and correcting this situation? We should be building and experimenting with antennas that we are happy with. Instead we have to read catalogs and try to find something that might work on a 2 foot square of land. And that 2 foot square usually has a metal fence around it. Joe AA6WG From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: horrock@aol.com (Horrock) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 11 Aug 1995 20:44:59 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 3 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40gtib$4j0@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> Reply-To: horrock@aol.com (Horrock) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I have a challenger and like it. I do guide the antenna. 10meter - 80meter work fine, but remember it is still a vertical. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!newsfeed.pitt.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!pagesat.net!liberty.liberty.com!usenet From: brannick@liberty.com (Bill Brannick) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 00:39:38 GMT Organization: LIBERTY Information Network Lines: 19 Message-ID: <40gtat$7pq@liberty.liberty.com> References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: midcom.midcom.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 vspscpub@xs4all.nl () wrote: >Hello out there! >As I am planning to buy a GAP TITAN Vertical, I would like to know >something more about its qualities from HAMS who already work with it. >Both positive and negative reactions.... I had a GAP Challenger VI for three years prior to putting up A Lightning Bolt Quad.. The Gap is a fine antenna.... most problems folks have with any vertical , more often then not, can be attributed to the surrounding environment.... verticals don't like to compete with other metallic objects.... I had a problem for a day or two with mine and discovered the kids left a alumunum ladder leaning against the house..... also watch out for drain pipes, etc.... but remember this goes for any vertical.... IMHO , based on reports from folks around here.. GAP's antennas compete very well with their competition. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!pipeline!not-for-mail From: acatalan@nyc.pipeline.com (Anthony G. Catalano) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 12 Aug 1995 01:02:04 -0400 Organization: The Pipeline Lines: 22 Message-ID: <40hckc$je3@pipe1.nyc.pipeline.com> References: <40g8un$r9h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pipe1.nyc.pipeline.com X-Newsreader: The Pipeline v3.1.1 On 11 Aug 1995 in article , 'w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom)' wrote: re: the gap antenna: >On the positive side it does match >well on all bands. -- So does a 10,000 meters of RG-8 ------------------------------------------------ Anthony G. Catalano WW2W From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!news.erinet.com!en.com!usenet From: Dana Henry Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 13 Aug 1995 19:24:37 GMT Organization: Exchange Network Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <40ljhl$imh@antares.en.com> References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: l2-29.en.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: vspscpub@xs4all.nl() I have a GAP Titan, up for the last 6 months. Save your money. I have more invested in phone calls to their Tech support, than I do in the antenna. Our only local stocking dealer, even took his down. Don't take this as someone who hoped for too much from a trapped vertical. 300 countries with a string of 4BTV's, Butternuts, 14AVQ's and now the GAP. I have used verticals for all of my 25 years as a ham. You won't hear too much bad about a GAP, because you don't hear them....."WHAT A PIECE OF GAP" Dana, AI8W.....danaai8w@en.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.erinet.com!en.com!usenet From: Dana Henry Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 13 Aug 1995 19:26:24 GMT Organization: Exchange Network Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <40ljl0$imh@antares.en.com> References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: l2-29.en.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: vspscpub@xs4all.nl() I have a GAP Titan, up for the last 6 months. Save your money. I have more invested in phone calls to their Tech support, than I do in the antenna. Our only local stocking dealer, even took his down. Don't take this as someone who hoped for too much from a trapped vertical. 300 countries with a string of 4BTV's, Butternuts, 14AVQ's and now the GAP. I have used verticals for all of my 25 years as a ham. You won't hear too much bad about a GAP, because you don't hear them....."WHAT A PIECE OF GAP" Dana, AI8W.....danaai8w@en.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!noc.near.net!usenet.teradyne.com!ttd.teradyne.com!rice From: rice@ttd.teradyne.com (John Rice) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: ground for radial system on roof? Date: 14 Aug 95 14:54:23 CDT Organization: Teradyne Inc., Telecommunications Division Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1995Aug14.145423.1@ttd.teradyne.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: riker1.ttd.teradyne.com In article , rbloom@netcom.com (Ron Bloom) writes: > > Butternut antenna on 3rd story flat roof (office building) + radials. > > what is to be used for "ground" ?? > > > we've got : 1.) cold water pipes > 2.) building structural steel (eye-beams) From a 'radiation' standpoint, install as many 'tuned' radials as you can, for each of the bands you will be operating. From a 'protection' standpoint, if you can get a good connection to the building 'structural steel', go for that. It's got to be a lower resistance path to ground than the water pipes, but if you've got access to both, use both. -------- John Rice - K9IJ | "I speak for myself, not my employer". k9ij@avsoft.com | Miracles, Magic and Sleight-of-hand done here. k9ij@amsat.org | Licensed since 1959 (708)-438-5065 - (bbs ) | Ex: K8YZR, KH6GHC, WB9CSP, W9MMB, WA1TXV From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!dd650 From: dd650@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Drew Loker) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Ground plane size??? Date: 13 Aug 1995 23:39:52 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) Lines: 31 Message-ID: <40m2g8$sdf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kanga.ins.cwru.edu >I know the $16 MFJ mag mount does 440 as well as 2 meters ... Actually, I have two of these. In fact, the second one that I just got in on Friday is going to go up on the roof. How big of a piece of metal I need to use for a ground plane? I think the piece I have cut already is 3'x2'. Somebody suggested that I use a 4x4, but I just do not have that size available. Also, I have another question. At my wife's work place, she works in an office inside a warehouse. The office is constructed of plywood which fits inside the warehouse which is much bigger. Because of the metal warehouse, we have her hooked up to a MFJ mag mount. I drilled a hole in the roof of the office building. The problem is that I am not able to get the antenna outside of the building, and I can not get it to be perfectly vertical while sticking it on something metal. It would be great if I could just stick the thing along the vertical side of the metal building, but then it will be paralel to the ground, and against the polarization of the repeater we are trying to get her to reach. As the antenna is now, it is hardly working better than when we had it hooked up inside her office on-top of a metal cabinet. If I really try, I can probably get it out of the building, but that is not my first choice. Currently, the antenna is using the entire metal building as a ground plane, but it is not orientated correctly (it is hanging upside down on the underside of the roof, but still not quite straight up and down). So I am thinking about putting the antenna on another piece of sheet metal that I have, but which is only 2'x3'. Will this work? It would be flat, straight up and down. Or would it be better to leave it on the building??? Thanks for any feedback. Drew Loker, loker@tenet.edu From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ground plane size??? Message-ID: From: Bill Harwood Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 19:11:44 GMT Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) References: <40m2g8$sdf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Organization: NAWS, China Lake, CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: dd650@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:40m2g8$sdf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu Lines: 8 A pizza pan is the beloved expedient ground plane of all amateurs. Note: you must chose at any time to cook pizza or operate the radio. The pan provides dual but not simultanious service. Bill Harwood AB6DY From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!sparc03bilt.unity.ncsu.edu!jwprice From: jwprice@unity.ncsu.edu (James Warren Price) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: ideas: rooftop wire antennas Date: 14 Aug 1995 02:51:25 GMT Organization: North Carolina State University Lines: 53 Message-ID: <40mdnd$8hj@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sparc03bilt.unity.ncsu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] The NCSU club W4ATC will be moving into a new shack in a couple of days, and we hope to get a 10/15/20m yagi back on our old tower, from which we used to do EME around 1980. In addition, we have the ENTIRE ROOF of the EE building available for wire antennas, and I think it offers challenges and opportunities for creativity. Specs are: 1. Square building, 190' on a side, courtyard in middle 2. Relatively flat roof at 65' above street 3. Front/back of building oriented at 15-degrees NNE 4. 30' feed through old vent from shack to rooftop (on south side ~50' from SSE corner) 5. 25' tower on elevator room on inside SSW corner 6. possible problem finding good ground 7. restrictions: can put nothing on flat roof surface, but can mount masts, etc. on side walls, tower on elevator room, etc. +-------------------+ | | | | | | | |-------+ | | | | | front | | | | <--- back side side | | | | | | | | | | | | lines represent 4 ft walls | t-------+ | t = 25' tower on elevator room | | d | d = dish pointed S (avoid interfering with) | | f | f = vent to room next to shack +-------------------+ Rig will be a Drake TR-7 at about 75 watts. Don't know what bands we'll be operating on. Also interesting: we've been given 1,000 ft of 12-gauge solid aluminum wire (stiff and sturdy). What should we put up? A full-wave "lazy quad" for 160m? 80m wire yagi? Phased longwires arranged at an angle so coverage overlaps NE towards Europe? I've made and used an 80m dipole and 20m groundplane (works great!) hung in the trees, as well as a 6m x-beam and 35-el 2m yagi using aluminum rod. I have a British book on wire antennas to work from, but thought someone else's creativity and experience might come in handy. (BTW I'm a forestry student, not EE.) This could be an interesting project. I'd love to hear any suggestions. 73 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Price, ARS N3QYE, jwprice@unity.ncsu.edu Secretary/Historian W4ATC StARS - NCSU Student Amateur Radio Society http://www.acs.ncsu.edu/HamRadio/StARS/ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: kd8ih@aol.com (Kd8ih) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Iso-loop vs. multi-band verticals Date: 13 Aug 1995 17:07:43 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 10 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40lpiv$dj8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: kd8ih@aol.com (Kd8ih) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Good day, This may be an old discussion topic but I am curious about performance comparisons between the Iso-loop (or MFJ's version) with multi-band verticals. Thanks, Bob KD8IH From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Leave it on, or take it off??? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 05:03:03 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: <808204575.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <1362912208-950808215909@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) wrote: >I' ve been playing around with various dipole wire antennas on 40 and >80 meters. Using home made 1:1 air core baluns and insulated wire >(12 gauge), I am seeing reflected power of about 5 watts with 100 >watts forward on the 80 meter dipole. >On the 40 meter dipole, I have about 10 watts reflected for 100 out! This VSWR is not excessive, but it *might* be indicative of a problem other than antenna/coax impedance. I'm curious how you're constructing the baluns. Are you sure the windings have sufficient inductance for 80 and 40 meters? The general rule of thumb for toroidal transformers is that the inductive reactance of the windings should be approximately 5 times the impedance of the circuit. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Leave it on, or take it off??? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 15:08:35 GMT Message-ID: <1565287047-950812080835@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 46 -> -> jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) wrote: -> -> >I' ve been playing around with various dipole wire antennas on 40 an -> >80 meters. Using home made 1:1 air core baluns and insulated wire -> >(12 gauge), I am seeing reflected power of about 5 watts with 100 -> >watts forward on the 80 meter dipole. -> -> >On the 40 meter dipole, I have about 10 watts reflected for 100 out! -> -> This VSWR is not excessive, but it *might* be indicative of a problem -> other than antenna/coax impedance. I'm curious how you're -> constructing the baluns. Are you sure the windings have sufficient -> inductance for 80 and 40 meters? The general rule of thumb for -> toroidal transformers is that the inductive reactance of the windings -> should be approximately 5 times the impedance of the circuit. -> -> 73, -> -> Jack WB3U If I had a scanner, I'd send you a GIF of what Iam building! The Balun is an air-core trifilar wound 1:1 balun and are built differently for 80 and 40 meters. I do not have a grid dip meter, however, I am told they are very wide-banded and can handle 2kw easy. ------|--| ----------- X | X---| X X | X | X 1X | 2X | 3X X |-------X |-------X | | | | | | |-----------0 |--------| so-239 0 = center conductor | = shield X = coils 40 meter balun is trifilar wound on a 7" piece of 3/4" pvc 15 turns of #14 solid insulated wire. Then the whole thing is cased in a 10" piece of 1 1/2" pvc. 80 meter is 18 turns on a 10" piece of 3/4" pvc. Jim Wooddell jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Leave it on, or take it off??? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 23:17:18 GMT Lines: 37 Message-ID: <808356643.18052@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <1565287047-950812080835@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) wrote: > 40 meter balun is trifilar wound on a 7" piece of 3/4" pvc > 15 turns of #14 solid insulated wire. Then the whole thing > is cased in a 10" piece of 1 1/2" pvc. > 80 meter is 18 turns on a 10" piece of 3/4" pvc. Jim, I don't think you have sufficient inductance in these baluns. To explain, the windings across the input and output should have an XL equal to approximately 4 to 5 times the impedance of the circuit. In this case, the impedance of both input and output is 50 ohms, therefore each *pair* of series windings should have an XL of 200 to 250 ohms. Breaking this down to a single winding, 100 to 125 ohms is required. This isn't exact, but it's close enough for purposes of this discussion. I calculated the approximate inductance of the windings using the diameter, number of turns and coil length you described. On 80M, the winding will have an inductance of approximately 0.44 uH, which presents an XL of only 10 ohms at 3.5 MHz. On 40M, the winding calculates to 0.43 uH, which has an XL of 19 ohms at 7 MHz. Neither of these numbers is sufficient and this means that you may be effectively loading up the balun instead of the antenna. This could also explain why you can't bring the VSWR to 1:1 - the load seen by the tuner could simply be outside its tuning range. If you're using 1/2 wave (resonant) dipoles, I personally think you'll be much better off building a toroidal balun for this use. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: n7chs@aol.com (N7CHS) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Mailing List Date: 13 Aug 1995 07:52:15 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 6 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40kp1f$5uv@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader I understand this newsgroups is echoed on a UCSD mailing list. Please post the address. Thank You Chuck Berry N7CHS/4 From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:12 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Make $50 000 cash fast, I From: clint.bradford@woodybbs.com (Clint Bradford) Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!wwswinc!clint.bradford Distribution: world Message-ID: <93.1846.7581.0NFBAD48@woodybbs.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 95 11:56:00 -0500 Organization: WoodyWare Software, Inc. - 516-736-6662 Lines: 16 Subject: Make $50 000 cash fast, I did!! 10. Robert M. White RR#1 Country Harbour Guys. Co., N.S., Canada BOH 1JO Dear Canadian Friends of Telecommunications Services, Please dial this gentleman up. At all hours of the day and night. And advise him that this nonsense is as illegal in Canada as it is in the United States. Thank you very much. Hope NAFTA is working out well for you. --- þ wcECHO 4.1 ÷ AR-Net: ATTENTION to Details þ Mira Loma, CA þ 909-681-6221 From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!caen!ranecurl From: ranecurl@engin.umich.edu (Rane Curl) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 14 Aug 1995 04:42:25 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 18 Sender: ranecurl@umich.edu Message-ID: <40mk7h$fbe@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ca.engin.umich.edu In article <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net>, Troy Majors wrote: >Still looking for a copy of the book by Walt Maxwell >REFLECTIONS: TRANSMISSION LINES AND ANTENNAS. > >ARRL is sold out. Anyone have an extra copy they >want to sell? (I followed the later posts back to this one.) I am seeking a copy of the article about quadrifilar helical antennas, that I learned from another article was in REFLECTIONS. Of course I checked the ARRL list (before reading this), and also searched local and a university library, without success. I would appreciate leads to finding a copy of the article (if not a copy of the book, which is sounding more interesting with discussion). Rane Curl N8REG From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.ultranet.com!k1log.ultranet.com!commo From: commo@k1log.ultranet.com (Norm Commo) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 22:33:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <40ctvo$r8o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: k1log.ultranet.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4] In article armond@delphi.com writes: >From: armond@delphi.com >Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 95 02:18:41 -0500 >W8JI Tom writes: > >>Troy, I think the ARRL quit selling the book because their technical staff >>doesn't understand conjugate matching. It is an excellent book in my > >Spectacular! You know where I would bet my dime. That's interesting. I just got a copy of this from them a fwe month's ago. Gee, maybe I got one of the last copies and it will be a collector's item now! 73s, -ricK1log From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!bman.uucom.com!ns1.iamerica.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 14 Aug 1995 15:43:53 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 14 Message-ID: <40nqvp$dru@maureen.teleport.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx3-04.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) >W8JI Tom writes: >Troy, I think the ARRL quit selling the book because their technical staff >doesn't understand conjugate matching. It is an excellent book in my I certainly hope this isn't true! Would one of the folks from the ARRL please confirm or repute this? Thanks, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 18:09:04 GMT Lines: 33 Message-ID: <808424560.4627@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <40mk7h$fbe@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 ranecurl@engin.umich.edu (Rane Curl) wrote: >In article <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net>, >Troy Majors wrote: To anyone looking for a copy of Reflections, I just received a copy from Joe Hays at Ham Radio Outlet in Colorado. Their Ph. is (800) 444-9476. I don't know how many they have left, but if these are indeed out of print the supply is limited. 73, Jack WB3U >>Still looking for a copy of the book by Walt Maxwell >>REFLECTIONS: TRANSMISSION LINES AND ANTENNAS. >> >>ARRL is sold out. Anyone have an extra copy they >>want to sell? > >(I followed the later posts back to this one.) I am seeking a >copy of the article about quadrifilar helical antennas, that I >learned from another article was in REFLECTIONS. Of course I >checked the ARRL list (before reading this), and also searched >local and a university library, without success. I would >appreciate leads to finding a copy of the article (if not a copy >of the book, which is sounding more interesting with discussion). > >Rane Curl N8REG > From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!dartvax.dartmouth.edu!usenet From: Michael McAmis Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: MLog log/packet freeware, minor screwup Date: 14 Aug 1995 13:30:07 GMT Organization: ValleyNet, INC Lines: 27 Message-ID: <40nj4v$fjk@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: v2-p-101.valley.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b4 (Windows; I; 16bit) > Disappointed with the commercial and shareware Windows > logging/packet software out there? Try MLog, freeware > now available on the internet. > > For ftp users, sign on to oak.oakland.edu and get > pub3/hamradio/pc/logging/mlog0116.zip > > If you're using a Web browser, start at BARC's home > page (www.acs.oakland.edu/barc.html), pick > "barc archives", then "PC files" (even though it > says DOS only). Select the "logging" directory > and fetch mlog0116.zip > > Have fun... The file import.bas was supposed to be a "little QBasic prgram" used to import foreign logs. Instead I included a chunk of MLog code with the same name. Entertaining but not very useful. If you need the real thing, let me know. It's quite small and e-mailable. Hopefully, I'll get 1.17 posted soon. Mike/WA3ECT michael_mcamis@valley.net (internet) WA3ECT @ W1ET.NH (packet) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!dartvax.dartmouth.edu!usenet From: michael_mcamis@valley.net (Michael McAmis) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: MLog, New Windows Log/Packet/CW freeware Date: 12 Aug 1995 15:02:37 GMT Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA Lines: 14 Message-ID: <40ifqd$nt6@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: v1-p-28.valley.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 Tired of all the commercial and shareware Windows junk out there? Well try mine... For ftp users, sign on to oak.oakland.edu and get pub3/hamradio/pc/logging/mlog0116.zip If you're using a Web browser, start at BARC's home page (www.acs.oakland.edu/barc.html), pick "barc archives", then "PC files" (even though it says DOS only). Select the "logging" directory and fetch mlog0116.zip Have fun... From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:17 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!network.ucsd.edu!btree.is.brooktree.com!usenet From: tedm@btree.brooktree.com (Ted Morange) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Need Help on Mobile Antenna Specs Date: 13 Aug 1995 14:30:10 -0700 Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego Lines: 15 Message-ID: <40lqt2$bh6@btree.brooktree.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: btree.is.brooktree.com Need help in understanding why the Diamond NR-770HA 2/.7m mobile antenna is specified as "1-1/2, 2-5/8". It's 40" long total, with only a loading circuit at the base and a few turns in the whip in the center. The whip length of about 36" roughly corresponds to 1/2 wavelength at 146MHz and 2 x 5/8 wavelength at 445MHz, but what is the theory behind specifying it in this way? Need references if possible. Pls any suggestions. Thanks. Ted KE6MWB -- UUCP: ...ucsd!btree!tedm From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:17 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!news.ecn.bgu.edu!feenix.metronet.com!jspencer From: jspencer@metronet.com (Joe Spencer) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: PDL II to 10M QUAD? Date: 14 Aug 1995 13:48:09 GMT Organization: Texas Metronet, Inc (login info (214/705-2901 - 817/571-0400)) Lines: 6 Message-ID: <40nk6p$pl8@feenix.metronet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fohnix.metronet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I am trying to convert a PDL-II (11meter) dual quad beam to 10 meters. I have tried shortening the wires on the quads but the SWR is still terrible. Had to quit due to the heat but I am considering dumping the Gamma match and feeding the quad direct. Has anyone tried this or anyone with comments would be appreciated. 73, Joe KK5NA From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!express.ior.com!news From: Joe Pfeuffer Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Portable Beam Antenna ?? Date: 12 Aug 1995 01:51:32 GMT Organization: Internet On-Ramp, Inc. Lines: 2 Message-ID: <40h1f4$75f@express.ior.com> References: <40du60$224@aurora.nscee.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs4-03.ior.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) What frequency range ?? From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: v31ry@aol.com (V31RY) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Portable Beam Antenna ?? Date: 13 Aug 1995 17:25:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 13 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40lqjh$dt4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40h1f4$75f@express.ior.com> Reply-To: v31ry@aol.com (V31RY) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com For 2m or 70cm, the Arrow Beam is made for hiking and backpacking.. It's sold by Antennas West, in Utah.. Designed by a ham in Loveland, Co.. Has 4 elements on a 4ft boom, all parts fit inside the boom, and you use it as a walking-stick. Assembles in about 5 or 10 minutes.. Their nr is 800-926-7373 or e-mail at radventr@itsnet.com Jim KK7C is very helpfull there, nice to do business with.. Good Luck! Glenn AE0Q/V31RY ex: WA0VPK, GM5BKC, ZB2WZ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:19 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.telalink.net!uro!jackatak!root From: root@jackatak.theporch.com (Jack GF Hill) Subject: Re: Portable Beam Antenna ?? Organization: Jack's Amazing CockRoach Capitalist Ventures Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 12:53:12 GMT Message-ID: References: <40du60$224@aurora.nscee.edu> Sender: bbs@nowhere.uucp (Superuser) Lines: 22 Brett Evans writes: > I'm looking for a comercial portable beam antenna that is easy to put > together and when broken down, it would fit in a backpack. Ahhhhh.... what band? 75M? ;^) Why not just build a walking stick beam (assuming you really mean 146MHz)??? The materials are readily available, the cost is reasonable, several people have built them with ease and good results, and you can better chose your style... Picking from a catlog is such hard work! ;^) -- 73, Jack, W4PPT/M (75M SSB 2-letter WAS #1657/#1789 -- both from the mobile! ;^) +--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--+ | Jack GF Hill |Voice: (615) 459-2636 - Ham Call: W4PPT | | P. O. Box 1685 |Modem: (615) 377-5980 - Bicycling and SCUBA Diving | | Brentwood, TN 37024|Fax: (615) 459-0038 - Life Member - ARRL | | root@jackatak.theporch.com - "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose" | +--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--+ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!simtel!not-for-mail From: hlee@guilford.bme.jhu.edu (Sean Lee) Newsgroups: comp.archives.msdos.announce,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: rascal21.zip - Single/Dual-reflector antenna designs w/source Keywords: simtel, msdos Summary: Reposted by Keith Petersen Message-ID: <9508131807.kp2286@SimTel.Coast.NET> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 18:07:44 GMT Followup-To: comp.archives.msdos.d Sender: msdos-ann-request@simtel.coast.net Organization: SimTel, the Coast to Coast Software Repository (tm) Approved: w8sdz@SimTel.Coast.NET Lines: 27 Xref: grape.epix.net comp.archives.msdos.announce:11383 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12852 I have uploaded to SimTel, the Coast to Coast Software Repository (tm), (available by anonymous ftp from the primary mirror site ftp.coast.net and the secondary mirrors of SimTel): ftp://ftp.coast.net/SimTel/msdos/electric/rascal21.zip SimTel/msdos/electric/ rascal21.zip Single/Dual-reflector antenna designs w/source RASCAL v2.1 is a Computer Aided Design for antennas. Radiation and feed patterns are computed easily. The designer only needs to move reflectors around, and type in the desired parameter values. The software has been presented in IEEE AP-S symposium twice. Two papers and manual are available upon request at prata@hertz.usc.edu. Special requirements: 386 or above with Math co-processor, MSDOS 5.0 Mouse with driver installed. Changes: Three more configurations of antennas now are available. rascal21.zip has replaced rascal10.zip. FreeWare. Uploaded by the author. Sean Lee hlee@eureka.wbme.jhu.edu or contact prata@hertz.usc.edu From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:21 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: re: Scanner discone/RG-8 From: art.harris@woodybbs.com (Art Harris) Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!wwswinc!art.harris Distribution: world Message-ID: <93.1910.7581.0NFBAD57@woodybbs.com> References: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 16:03:00 -0500 Organization: WoodyWare Software, Inc. - 516-736-6662 Lines: 35 In <201002-0608951944550001@tonto-slip13.cis.brown.edu>, Steve Thompson wrote: AP>I am currently re-doing by scanner base set-up I have a bearcat 350A and a AP>Radio Shack pro-26 hooked up to a discone antenna. The antenna is seven AP>feet off my roof in a residential area, I have 75 feet of RG-58 cable AP>connecting it to my scanners. What is my biggest problem as far as signal AP>loss is it the cable or the height of my antenna? Would RG-8 cable make a AP>difference here? Any suggestions you could give would be a greatly AP>appreciated. Depends. How high is your roof? What is the surrounding terrain like? Increased antenna height will always improve signal strength, but the effect is most noticeable if the additional height allows you to clear a nearby obstruction such as a building or hill. 75 feet of RG-58 has about 9 db loss at 500 MHz which means almost 90 percent of the signal is lost in the line. But that might not be as bad as it sounds. Since most scanners (particularly Bearcats) can't tolerate high signal levels without desensitizing and/or generating intermod, you might not gain much by making antenna system improvements. The effect of changing to a lower-loss cable will be most noticeable at the highest frequencies (e.g., 800 MHz). If you are experiencing ANY intermod now, the condition will only get worse if you improve the antenna system. On the other hand, if you have no such problems and no nearby transmitters, replacing the coax and raising the antenna might be worthwhile. BTW, are you using a splitter to feed both radios from the single antenna? That's another source of signal loss. Art, N2AH From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: wa6ube@aol.com (WA6UBE) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: SG230 component value Date: 12 Aug 1995 01:35:15 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 20 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40heij$aub@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: wa6ube@aol.com (WA6UBE) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Hello -- I have a misprint in the manual for my SG230 smart-tuner -- there is a resistor that connects from the base of Q4 to Ground. my particular schematic lists two R50's on the drawing, one where R51 is supposed to go. Does anyone have a schematic that shows what the value of R51 is supposed to be? The color code on the resistor itself indicates 7500 Ohms but I don't think that is what it is supposed to be. before I call the factory and have to get into a phone conversation with Pierre up there, I would rather find out if anyone on the net here can answer this for me .. thanx and 73 - Trish WA6UBE@aol.com "The Vertical Skywave Girl" From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: ibmdelf@aol.com (IBM Del F) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SG230 component value Date: 12 Aug 1995 18:22:37 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 8 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40j9jd$oba@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40heij$aub@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: ibmdelf@aol.com (IBM Del F) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Looking at a schematic drawing ( revision "T", April, 93 ) R51 is connected across the emitter and base of Q4 with the emitter being grounded. The value of R51 is 7.5k Ohms (7500). R50, on the other hand, connects to the base of Q4 and is shown as 10k Ohms. Del, KD4B Raleigh, NC From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!gwen.pcug.co.uk!kate.ibmpcug.co.uk!gbscomms!gordy Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <903@gbscomms.win-uk.net> Reply-To: gordy@gbscomms.win-uk.net (Gordon B. Slater) From: gordy@gbscomms.win-uk.net (Gordon B. Slater) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 21:02:15 GMT Subject: Slim Jim/Modified Slim Jim construction info Lines: 94 Hi all, after several requests, I'm posting the following text I have sent to Gary as email. .... The Slim Jim was invented by Fred Judd, G2-something or other. It looks basically like a jpole, ie it has a 1/4 wave parallel matching stub at the bottom, and the "radiating" section is 1/2 wave high, starting from the top of the matching section. The 2 differ in that the Slim Jim's upper section takes the form of a folded element, whereas the basic Jpole is a single length. Just imagine a Jpole with a top section twice the length, then fold this top section in half, so that the end of it comes to within spitting distance of the top of the open end of the matching stub. Because of the folded element, the bandwidth of the antenna is larger than for a simple Jpole. The Greek Modified Slim Jim is similar in appearance to the standard SJ but the dimensions are different. The modifications give slightly better matching, and a lower angle of max radiation. The SJ and the MSJ are good antennae, but are apparently not widely used outside of UK/Europe. The design is a bit critical of close spacing to other conductors alongside the element, but the tapping points on the stub can be adjusted until the VSWR is acceptable. Basic design for the SJ (MSJ has the gap further up) ----- shorted at top I I I I I I I I I I I I upper I I radiator I I 1/2 wave radiator I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc Organization: Toronto Free-Net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <9508090927.AA22216@ukpyr2.uk.oracle.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 17:06:07 GMT Lines: 45 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12826 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8918 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84809 Peter Glibbery (pglibber@uk.oracle.com) wrote: [stuff deleted] : I'm writing from the UK and the references mentioned in the manual are not at : all easy to come by - I've tried. : 1) In the case of some of these designs there is a need for a 'ground'. The The word in the U.K. for 'ground' is 'earth'. : diagrams in the manual show one end of a wire attached to a metal stake which : is pushed into the ground, while the other end is attached to the radio set : itself. Where on the radio set is the free end of the ground wire attached ? Is : it attached to some kind of socket, or do you somehow attach it to the body of : the radio set ? Depends on make/model of radio, often a screw designed just for attaching a grounding wire. : 2) When using a 1/2-Rhombic the manual mentions that you feed the two 1/4 wave : antenna elements from the centre using a 'coax'. What exactly is a 'coax' and : how does it differ from the antenna wire itself ? Coax is short for coaxial cable. A shielded cable (ie: conductor surrounded by insulation, a shield (ie: a conductor), and more insulation). : 3) With the 1/2-Rhombic design the manual suggests that if a coax is not : available to use a 'twisted pair'. What is a twisted pair ? My guess is two : sheathed copper wires twisted together - but is this too simple a thought ? Your guess is right re: twisted pair, two insulated wires twisted together. : 4) With the 1/2-Rhombic one end of the antenna wire is attached to a : terminating resistor. The idea of this resistor is to give some : directionality to the radio wave (I recognise that there is a difference : between a resistor and an insulator (in the later case, the manual suggests a : piece of wood or a C-ration spoon)). Does anyone have a good idea of what would : make a good field expedient resistor ? On this one you have got me. Colin McGregor - VE3ZAA From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!mkeitz From: mkeitz@bev.net (Mike Keitz) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc Subject: Re: US Military Field Expedient Antennas Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 18:20:46 GMT Organization: TSE Systems Lines: 27 Message-ID: <40irfi$hk1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> References: <9508090927.AA22216@ukpyr2.uk.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mkeitz.beve.blacksburg.va.us X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12828 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8921 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84811 In article , aa005@torfree.net (Colin McGregor) wrote: >Peter Glibbery (pglibber@uk.oracle.com) wrote: > >[stuff deleted] [More stuff deleted] [Need for resistor to load rhombic antenna] >: piece of wood or a C-ration spoon)). Does anyone have a good idea of what would >: make a good field expedient resistor ? > >On this one you have got me. * Carbon rod from dry-cell battery (not alkaline) Resistance of these is quite low (1-5 ohms) * Pencil "lead", also likely to be too low in resistance to serve as antenna load. * Bare wires dipped in container of salt water. Will not withstand DC or much AC current flow without corrosion. Also likely to corrode by itself, depending on choice of materials. * Antenna input of another receiver. -Mike KD4QDM From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!gwen.pcug.co.uk!kate.ibmpcug.co.uk!gbscomms!gordy Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc Message-ID: <911@gbscomms.win-uk.net> References: <9508090927.AA22216@ukpyr2.uk.oracle.com> Reply-To: gordy@gbscomms.win-uk.net (Gordon B. Slater) From: gordy@gbscomms.win-uk.net (Gordon B. Slater) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 14:37:45 GMT Subject: Re: US Military Field Expedient Antennas Lines: 13 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12853 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8936 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84853 >: 4) With the 1/2-Rhombic one end of the antenna wire is attached to a >: terminating resistor. The idea of this resistor is to give some >: directionality to the radio wave (I recognise that there is a difference >: between a resistor and an insulator (in the later case, the manual suggests a >: piece of wood or a C-ration spoon)). Does anyone have a good idea of what would >: make a good field expedient resistor ? > >On this one you have got me. iron wire is often used. at rf is has quite high resistance, but it varies with wire type, condition (corrosion) etc. Gordy -- Caution: Keys now changed at random security intervals. Contact for current armoured transport file. "You are reminded that this is an insecure circuit. The use of names, ranks and classified information is forbidden." From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: ibmdelf@aol.com (IBM Del F) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc Subject: Re: US Military Field Expedient Antennas Date: 14 Aug 1995 00:33:35 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 13 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40mjmv$mej@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <911@gbscomms.win-uk.net> Reply-To: ibmdelf@aol.com (IBM Del F) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12869 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8943 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84866 You can also use a standard 'lead' (graphite core) pencil. Attach a wire at each end where you expose the core (alligator clips?). The amount of resistance will vary with the graphite core length, density, diameter. You can increase the resistance by filing through the pencil more or less in the middle but just don't cut all the way through the core or you've ruined it.. The deeper the cut into the graphite core, the higher the resistance, BUT, you will lower the amount of power it can dissipate at that point. The assumption here is that you have some means of determining the resistance as you file into the core if you are concerned about a specific value such as 600 Ohms. Del, KD4B Raleigh, NC From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:28 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!newshost.marcam.com!Empire.Net!news.net99.net!news.monmouth.com!usenet From: Jim Hendrickson Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc Subject: Re: US Military Field Expedient Antennas Date: 14 Aug 1995 01:27:38 GMT Organization: Monmouth Internet Corporation Lines: 2 Message-ID: <40m8qa$t8f@shell.monmouth.com> References: <9508090927.AA22216@ukpyr2.uk.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp4.monmouth.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12874 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:8946 rec.radio.amateur.misc:84872 The terminating resistor is 600 ohms, non inductive. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:28 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What kind of coax do From: art.harris@woodybbs.com (Art Harris) Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsboy.utelfla.com!news.iag.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!wwswinc!art.harris Distribution: world Message-ID: <93.1945.7581.0NFBAD63@woodybbs.com> References: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 95 19:45:00 -0500 Organization: WoodyWare Software, Inc. - 516-736-6662 Lines: 23 In , Steve wrote: AP>I have two scanners hooked up to a discone antenna on my roof, requiring AP>75 feet of cable. I primarily want to listen to the military aviation band AP>225-400mhz and want to receive signals from Otis AFB approx 45 miles away. AP>Is RG-8 good enough for my needs or do I need better, of course I'd like AP>to have minimal signal loss. Your imput will be of great help. More important than the coax is your antenna height. If you're trying to hear ground transmissions from Otis over a 45-mile path, it might be difficult. Hearing aircraft even 100 miles away is usually not a problem. I would say RG-8 should be acceptable for your situation. I do quite a bit of listening in the 225 - 400 MHz range using a 40 foot high discone and about 50 feet of RG-8X cable. BTW, I'm on Long Island and listen to the ANG flights out of Otis on a regular basis. 73, Art (N2AH) art.harris@woodybbs.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:29 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!veltman From: veltman@netcom.com (paul Veltman) Subject: Wind Loading Forumuas Wanted Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 14:38:10 GMT Lines: 17 Sender: veltman@netcom16.netcom.com Hi Sports Fans, I am installing a 70 foot tower. The antenna will be a 4 element collinear that I estimate will consume 2 sq ft of wind loading. The guy anchors are rated a 1000 lbs of force each. The question is: What are the formulas used to calculate the amount of force on the guy anchors at a given wind speed (say 60 mph to be safe) for a certain square area of tower face plus antenna. My gut tells me I'm safe, but I want the numbers to prove it. My usual antenna references are great for designing the antennas, but are greatly lacking in engineering support structures. Thanks, Paul WA6OKQ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!ip145.phx.primenet.com!nx7u From: nx7u@primenet.com (Scott Townley) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Wind Loading Forumuas Wanted Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 08:23:28 MST Organization: Primenet Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ip145.phx.primenet.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4] In article veltman@netcom.com (paul Veltman) writes: >From: veltman@netcom.com (paul Veltman) >Subject: Wind Loading Forumuas Wanted >Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 14:38:10 GMT >Hi Sports Fans, >I am installing a 70 foot tower. The antenna will be a 4 element >collinear that I estimate will consume 2 sq ft of wind loading. >The guy anchors are rated a 1000 lbs of force each. >The question is: What are the formulas used to calculate the amount of >force on the guy anchors at a given wind speed (say 60 mph to be safe) >for a certain square area of tower face plus antenna. My gut tells me >I'm safe, but I want the numbers to prove it. My usual antenna >references are great for designing the antennas, but are greatly lacking >in engineering support structures. >Thanks, >Paul WA6OKQ > Although seemingly not related, a GREAT source of information on mechanical antenna structures is: Leeson, "Physical Design of Yagi Antennas", ARRL which goes into a LOT of the wind loading, moment arm, stress and strain of typical antenna configurations. scott townley nx7u@primenet.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!pipeline!not-for-mail From: acatalan@nyc.pipeline.com (Anthony G. Catalano) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Windows Logbook Shareware at FTP site Date: 12 Aug 1995 00:59:37 -0400 Organization: The Pipeline Lines: 27 Message-ID: <40hcfp$j0t@pipe1.nyc.pipeline.com> References: <40gn8m$mbs@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pipe1.nyc.pipeline.com X-Newsreader: The Pipeline v3.1.1 On Fri, 11 Aug 1995 in article , '70172.2325@compuserve.com (Bob Ingersoll)' wrote: >During setup I get a COMMDLG.DLL IN USE error. I select IGNORE and the >install completes. Then when I start LOGBOOK I get a MSAJT112.DLL NOT >FOUND error. -- Thanks Bob, Osmo and Jerry, you guys just saved me from waisting my time. ( I have enough software headached at this time as a Novell CNE! ) ;-) I will check my windows installation to see if I any other programs that I have installed (many) may have placed that in my windows directory. Anthony G. Catalano WW2W From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!qnet.com!usenet From: werich@qnet.com (Bill Richards) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Windows Logbook Shareware at FTP site Date: 12 Aug 1995 19:56:14 GMT Organization: Quantum Networking Solutions, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <40j10u$77p@mandolin.qnet.com> References: <40gn8m$mbs@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup11.av.ca.qnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.11 > >During setup I get a COMMDLG.DLL IN USE error. I select IGNORE and the >install completes. Then when I start LOGBOOK I get a MSAJT112.DLL NOT >FOUND error. > >I sent the author Email a week ago and have not had any response to >date. > >Am I wasting my time? > >I am afraid you are wasting your time I have had the exact same problem, and Emailing the author brought no response. > > -- 73, Bill N6WXF DM14 Palmdale,CA werich@qnet.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!news.bu.edu!dartvax.dartmouth.edu!usenet From: michael_mcamis@valley.net (Michael McAmis) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Windows Logbook Shareware at FTP site Date: 12 Aug 1995 14:54:14 GMT Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA Lines: 7 Message-ID: <40ifam$nt6@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> References: <40gn8m$mbs@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: v1-p-28.valley.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 Try this, get mlog0116.zip from oak.oakland.edu ftp site, directory pub3/hamradio/pc/logging Have fun and let me know if you have any problems. Mike/WA3ECT From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!newsmaster From: 70172.2325@compuserve.com (Bob Ingersoll) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Windows Logbook Shareware at FTP site Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 23:02:16 GMT Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Lines: 18 Message-ID: <40jbvf$6fq@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com> References: <40gn8m$mbs@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com> <40ifam$nt6@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ad08-036.compuserve.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 michael_mcamis@valley.net (Michael McAmis) wrote: >Try this, get mlog0116.zip from oak.oakland.edu ftp site, >directory pub3/hamradio/pc/logging >Have fun and let me know if you have any problems. >Mike/WA3ECT I got it! I'm usin' it! Thanks From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!newsfeed.tip.net!usenet From: hermod@sds.se (Hermod Pedersen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Wire gauge Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 22:48:13 GMT Organization: Sydsvenska Dagbladet, Malmo, Sweden Lines: 16 Message-ID: <40lvlt$bfs@stella.tip.net> Reply-To: hermod@sds.se NNTP-Posting-Host: a3119.dial.tip.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 In all my American (and British too, for that matter) antenna litterature the authors always refer to using wires with different gauge. Now that may be practical to most of you, but it isn't for me. Living in Sweden, where wires are measured in millimeters (or parts of mm), it would be handy if someone have a gauge->metric conversion table. I can't even find one in ARRL Antenna Compendium (too bad, in my opinion). Sometime I think a saw a note that American and British wire gauge even are different. If so, I guess that's one way of making life more interesting... Regards, Hermod Pedersen Malmo, Sweden From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Wire gauge Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 03:39:32 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <808372381.23005@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40lvlt$bfs@stella.tip.net> <808359559.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 I wrote: >Gauge Diam in Mils (Wire Table) Two people caught my goof on this one. Yes, the table is milli-inches, not millimeters. Sorry for the error Hermod. Can't put anything past this group. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:34 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Wire gauge Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 00:05:53 GMT Lines: 55 Message-ID: <808359559.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40lvlt$bfs@stella.tip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 hermod@sds.se (Hermod Pedersen) wrote: >In all my American (and British too, for that matter) antenna >litterature the authors always refer to using wires with different >gauge. Now that may be practical to most of you, but it isn't for >me. Living in Sweden, where wires are measured in millimeters (or >parts of mm), it would be handy if someone have a gauge metric >conversion table. The following is from the Copper-Wire Table in the ARRL Handbook. Maybe this will provide at least a temporary solution. Gauge Diam in Mils 1 289.3 2 257.6 3 229.4 4 204.3 5 181.9 6 162.0 7 144.3 8 128.5 9 114.4 10 101.9 11 90.7 12 80.8 13 72.0 14 64.1 15 57.1 16 50.8 17 45.3 18 40.3 19 35.9 20 32.0 21 28.5 22 25.3 23 22.6 24 20.1 25 17.9 26 15.9 27 14.2 28 12.6 29 11.3 30 10.0 31 8.9 32 8.0 33 7.1 34 6.3 35 5.6 36 5.0 37 4.5 38 4.0 39 3.5 40 3.1 From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news From: Lawrence Bordeaux <76003.1221@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Wire gauge Date: 14 Aug 1995 02:14:33 GMT Organization: Ghostbusters Lines: 6 Message-ID: <40mbi9$dd7$1@mhafn.production.compuserve.com> References: <808359559.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> If I recall, that table is showing the diameter in mils, or thousandths, of an inch. I'm gonna guess that if you multiply the 'mils' setting by .00254 that will give you the right mm diameter. -Lawrence From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Wire gauge Date: 14 Aug 1995 02:34:54 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 24 Message-ID: <40mcoe$gfs@maureen.teleport.com> References: <808359559.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx3-19.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) ; jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: ; hermod@sds.se (Hermod Pedersen) wrote: ; The following is from the Copper-Wire Table in the ARRL Handbook. ; Maybe this will provide at least a temporary solution. ; Gauge Diam in Mils ; [wire table] One mil = 0.001 inch = 0.0254 mm Multiply the table values by 0.0254 to get the diameter in mm. These values are American Wire Gauge (AWG) which is universally used in the U.S. The British use SWG, which is, as was said, different. Any edition of the ARRL Handbook has a table showing the diameters of wires of a given AWG, and the nearest SWG size. Roy Lewallen, W7EL From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:36 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpcvsnz!tomb From: tomb@lsid.hp.com (Tom Bruhns) Subject: Re: Wire gauge Sender: news@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com (News ) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 18:11:53 GMT References: <40lvlt$bfs@stella.tip.net> Nntp-Posting-Host: hplsnb.lsid.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.4] Lines: 56 Hermod Pedersen (hermod@sds.se) wrote: : In all my American (and British too, for that matter) antenna : litterature the authors always refer to using wires with different : gauge. : Now that may be practical to most of you, but it isn't for me. Living : in Sweden, where wires are measured in millimeters (or parts of mm), : it would be handy if someone have a gauge->metric conversion table. I : can't even find one in ARRL Antenna Compendium (too bad, in my : opinion). How about a formula instead of a table? If you are already working out antenna sizes and have a calculator (with exponentials) available, you can use this: For AWG wire: diameter in inches: inches = 10^(-.05035*gauge - 0.4884) diameter in millimeters = diameter in inches*25.4, so mm = 10^(-.05035*gauge + .9164 ) (For gauges like 00, etc., use -1, etc. instead...) This is quite accurate, close than any reasonable manufacturing tolerances, and you can probably do fine with just: +-----------------------------------------+ | mm approx= 10^(-.05*gauge + .9 ) | +-----------------------------------------+ or equivalently (slightly more accurately, actually) +-----------------------------------------+ | mm approx= 8 * 10^(-.05*gauge) | +-----------------------------------------+ For this last equations, the errors at a couple different points: 10 gauge: -2.3% 20 gauge: -1.5% 30 gauge: -0.7% If you want to know the resistance at 20C, a very close approximation for the resistance in ohms per 1000 feet (or per 300 meters) is: +-----------------------------------------+ | R1000 = 10^(0.1*gauge - 1 ) | +-----------------------------------------+ Maybe if someone asks for it I can work it out for BWG (British Wire Gauge) as well -- but I'm not sure I have an accurate table for that standard. 73, K7ITM From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 14 20:52:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: Listserv@ucsd (Mailing List Processor) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: your LISTSERV request "help g5mh (?) minibeam" Date: 13 Aug 95 14:07:43 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 3 Message-ID: <199508131407.HAA18482@mail.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu The mailing list "g5mh" could not be found. You may use the INDEX command to get a listing of available mailing lists. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:00 1995 From: ka0gkc@hamlink.mn.org (Claton Cadmus) Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!rosevax!hamlink!fredmail Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 5/8 Wave vs. j-pole Message-ID: <808657333.AA03269@hamlink.mn.org> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:10:40 -0100 X-FTN-To: All Lines: 25 Tom W8JI wrote: W8>As modeled on a NEC based program I have. Gain is in dBi: W8>With solid metal groundplane extending 2 wl each direction W8>1/4 wl vert 5.2 dBi >1/2 wl vert 6.6 dBi >5/8 wl vert 7.9 dBi I think you need to replace your antenna modeling software! These fiqures are way to high for single element antennas. Now we know where the beam manufactures get their gain figures. 73 de Claton Cadmus, KA0GKC ______________________________________________________________ | FIDOnet= Claton Cadmus 1:282./100 | | INTERnet= Claton.Cadmus@hamlink.mn.org | | PACKETnet= KA0GKC@WB0GDB.#STP.MN.USA.NA | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If anything I have written makes any cents, I claim copyright! * SLMR 2.1a * This tagline is umop apisdn. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/8 Wave vs. j-pole Date: 17 Aug 1995 16:37:38 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 31 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4109ai$jd1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <808657333.AA03269@hamlink.mn.org> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Claton Wrote: >W8>1/4 wl vert 5.2 dBi >> >1/2 wl vert 6.6 dBi >> >5/8 wl vert 7.9 dBi >I think you need to replace your antenna modeling software! These >fiqures are way to high for single element antennas. Now we know >where the beam manufactures get their gain figures. >73 de Claton Cadmus, KA0GKC Clayton, I may have confused people by giving dBi figures. A half wave dipole in free space has 2.15 dB gain over an isotropic radiator. The ground can add 4.8 dB or so to this gain, for a total of 7 dBi for a simple vertical dipole above a perfect ground. Page 2-13 of the Antenna Engineering Handbook by Jasik lists the gain of various simple antennas. A quarter wave vertical dipole has 5.15 dBi in that table. This closely agrees with the modeling program I used, as do tables in several other reference books. Perhaps I should have given dBi figures and not dBd. To get dBd, subtract 2.15 dB from the dBi figures. But the point was to illustrate that a very big perfect ground is necessary to reach the gain potential of a 5/8 wave vertical. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!vax.sonoma.edu!harrisok From: harrisok@vax.sonoma.edu (Ken Harrison) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/8 Wave vs. j-pole Date: 18 Aug 95 02:30:13 -0800 Organization: Sonoma State University Lines: 42 Message-ID: <1995Aug18.023013.1@vax.sonoma.edu> References: <808657333.AA03269@hamlink.mn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: vax.sonoma.edu In article <808657333.AA03269@hamlink.mn.org>, ka0gkc@hamlink.mn.org (Claton Cadmus) writes: > > Tom W8JI wrote: > > W8>As modeled on a NEC based program I have. Gain is in dBi: > > W8>With solid metal groundplane extending 2 wl each direction > > W8>1/4 wl vert 5.2 dBi > >1/2 wl vert 6.6 dBi > >5/8 wl vert 7.9 dBi > > I think you need to replace your antenna modeling software! These > fiqures are way to high for single element antennas. Now we know where > the beam manufactures get their gain figures. And *I* always thought they got the figures from the sales department... :-) Ken -- __________________________________________________________________________ Ken Harrison --- harrisok@vax.sonoma.edu --- Amateur Radio: N6MHG ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/8 Wave vs. j-pole Date: 18 Aug 1995 09:34:50 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 2 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4124tq$5og@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4105il$67h@aurora.nscee.edu> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Bret, The figues were reasonable. They agree with textbooks. They were in dBi, not dBd. My last post explains it. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.magg.net!news From: "Terrence R. Redding" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info Date: 16 Aug 1995 01:48:11 GMT Organization: M.A.G. Information Services (MAGG.NET) Lines: 16 Message-ID: <40rior$pjv@grumpy.magg.net> References: <40j0t4$9pm@grumpy.magg.net> <40l3ak$9ji@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: wpb-105.magg.net jbmitch@vt.edu (jbmitch) wrote: > > In article <40j0t4$9pm@grumpy.magg.net>, "Terrence R. Redding" says: > >Has anyone seen or heard of the 70' Rohn crankup/foldover tower? > >All comments aprreciated. Thanks, Terry > >WB5LMJ @ WB4MOZ.FL.USA.NA > > You might ask if the tower is built of 25 or 45 sections; Rohn offers > both. The 45 is much heavier duty. I believe the tilt over is an > excellent design, particularly if you don't like climbing towers. (who does?) > In short, probably too much money for the 25, but not bad if it's 45. > 73, John I certainly don't "like" climbing towers, and I am looking toward the day when I "wont" climb towers. Thanks for the comments. Cheers, Terry From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Antenna T/R Switch? Date: 16 Aug 1995 01:46:27 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 12 Message-ID: <40rilj$qjn@news.azstarnet.com> References: <40rc57$ebd@chaos.dac.neu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite191.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) To: dcassell@lynx.dac.neu.edu dcassell@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Damon Z Cassell) wrote: >Help! I need a transmit/receive switch to match some old transmitters >with receivers. Any suggestions on how to build one? Or buy one? > >Thanks. You can try posting on rec.radio.amateur.swap. If you want to build one, at HF (3-30 MHz), an open frame SPDT relay mounted in a small metal box with SO239 connectors will probably suffice. Buying new these days is almost out of the question unless you're related to Ross Perot or Bill Gates. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Antenna T/R Switch? Date: 16 Aug 1995 01:49:17 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 6 Message-ID: <40riqt$qjn@news.azstarnet.com> References: <40rc57$ebd@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <40rilj$qjn@news.azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite191.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) To: N7WS@azstarnet.com Wes Stewart wrote: <>> >You can try posting on rec.radio.amateur.swap. <> > OOPS... Make that REC.RADIO.SWAP From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:05 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch!avery.med.Virginia.EDU!tjb9c From: tjb9c@avery.med.Virginia.EDU (Theodore J. Bittner) Subject: Any good antenna tuners? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: avery.med.virginia.edu Message-ID: Sender: usenet@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU Organization: uva Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:52:31 GMT Lines: 13 My MFJ 949-D gave up the ghost recently and I need to find another antenna tuner. While the 949 worked pretty good, I have not had the best of luck with MFJ products and wondered what others use. Has anyone had good luck with Vectronics? I run low power <100 watts into a G5RV @ 25 ft because of CCR's, so my tuner needs to work well with an all band antenna. Any comments or suggestions would be most helpful and appreciated. Thanks. Ted--KQ4MZ-- -- Ted Bittner Charlottesville,Va University of Virginia Internet: tjb9c@galen.med.virginia.edu Dept of Radiology Amateur Radio: KQ4MZ 804-924-9399 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Any good antenna tuners? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 04:55:09 GMT Lines: 23 Message-ID: <808636141.524@pinetree.microserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 >> tjb9c@avery.med.Virginia.EDU (Theodore J. Bittner) wrote: > I run low power <100 watts into a G5RV @ 25 ft because >of CCR's, so my tuner needs to work well with an all band >antenna. Generally speaking, a G5RV does not make great demands on a tuner. Therefore, of the designs currently available, I believe you want a basic tuner using either a "T" or Pi configuration (no split caps), and the highest quality components you can find for the dollar. In the used market, the low power Johnson Matchbox is a great performer. I also believe there is little difference in loss or versatility between tuners with rotary inductors and those with switched coils. Either style can be good or bad depending on its physical design. BTW, the subject of tuners is a somewhat personal issue due to a lack of hard and fast data on the efficiency of many models. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: "James A. Storm" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Any good antenna tuners? Date: 17 Aug 1995 06:52:56 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 10 Message-ID: <40up08$h3@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sf6-29.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1PE (Windows; I; 16bit) To: tjb9c@avery.med.Virginia.EDU Hi Ted, You might want to try Tucker Electronics as advertised in QST. I use the high power one and it works quite well and is well made. I suspect it's made by Vectronics since the pictures I see look the same. It is very easy to tune and once you've logged your settings, it's highly repeatable. 73, Jim WB6LWS in Pacifica, CA From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 01:48:01 GMT Message-ID: <556969537-950814184801@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 52 -> -> > Speaking of stopping the current flow in the shield.... -> > A friend of mine and I were discussing six meter repeaters the oth -> > day, and possible antenna systems that wouldn't need four or six -> > water-heater-sized cavities, and we came up with putting the recei -> > antenna at 120' on the tower, and the transmit antenna at either 4 -> > 60' or 80', whichever would place the RX antenna in a null for the -> > antenna. However, he feels that the TX antenna would "warm up" th -> > RX antenna feedline to RF, which would be ducted right into the fr -> > end of the receiver by the feedline outer shield. Even with ground -> > the outer jacket at the building entrance, and using a cavity on t -> > there would still be a unbroken path for RF to the RX chassis. -> -> > Any ideas? The equipment in question is a 60w Master Pro 6m repea -> > that is currently being used as a base station... -> -> In theory, current on the outside of the shield won't get into the se -> receiver. If the bulkhead grounding is done right, the current will e -> up on the outside of the bulkhead. Any which would get through should -> up on the outside, not inside, of the second receiver if its shieldin -> good. -> -> I presume the tower is metal. If the cable is dressed against the tow -> any current on the outside of the cable would also be induced into th -> tower, which probably (although not certainly) would reduce the curre -> on the outside of the coax by the time it left the tower. -> -> If current on the outside of the coax is a problem in cases like this -> you can reduce it to a low value by putting 2 or 3 "current" ("choke" -> baluns at about 1/4 wavelength intervals beginning at the coupling -> point. -> -> 73, -> Roy Lewallen, W7EL -> w7el@teleport.com And, on another note, many of the 6m antennas are not of the grounded type. It would be well worth the effort to buy or build antennas that are grounded. You can solve alot of problems on a hill top with a good antenna. And, at 6m, you can sure cause alot of problems on hilltops! I had a node on a 6m backbone wipe out a microwave path for a telco everytime it transmitted. I was very close to their building and was getting into their DS3 equipment big time. Believe it or not, the Cushcraft 6m Ringo is a fair 6m antenna if the weather is not to severe. They are cheap and hold up well on a tower and are grounded. I have never ever had one fail and I have used them all at one time or another and also have never seen a case where a choke balun has had to be installed on a coax at a repeater site. Jim Wooddell WA6OFT jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!usenet From: DB Wilhelm Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 17 Aug 1995 04:08:10 GMT Organization: News & Observer Public Access Lines: 28 Message-ID: <40ufba$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vyger707.nando.net Wes Stewart wrote: > Snip... > > The balun will probably be most effective if it is used at the feed point, particularly on a > multi-band antenna. Getting cute and putting it somewhere else on the line can bite you if you > pick a quarter-wave multiple for the position. > > > > It is true that induced current from dipole radiation should cancel if the line is dressed > away from the dipole properly. This does not correct for the above, however. > > Note that IMHO the seminal (what a word!) work on this topic is found in Volume 1 of the ARRL > Antenna Compendium and is titled "Baluns: What They Do and How They Do It" by Roy, W7EL. > > > > Regards, Wes -- N7WS > Wes, I really don't know why anyone would want to feed a multiband antenna with coax (I am assuming HF antennas). I would not want to suffer the losses involved in using coax with a high VSWR. My points are only valid for a resonant and matched dipole. Sorry, I failed to make that clarification. 73 de W3FPR Don From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!parsifal.nando.net!usenet From: DB Wilhelm Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 17 Aug 1995 01:52:34 GMT Organization: News & Observer Public Access Lines: 96 Message-ID: <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vyger707.nando.net jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > > n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: > > >Here's a hot one for ya. Coax is really balanced. The current on the > >center conductor is balanced against the current on the inside of the > >outer conductor. > > > >Problems only arise when the outside of the shield picks up signal. > > Not true. The ARRL Antenna Book explains this best: > > "A centerfed antenna with open ends, of which the half-wave type is an > example, is inherently a balanced radiator. . . . If the antenna is > fed at the center through a coaxial line, this balance is upset > because one side of the radiator is connected to the shield while the > other is connected to the inner conductor. On the side connected to > the shield, a current can flow down over the *outside* of the coaxial > line. The fields thus set up cannot be canceled by the fields from > the inner conductor because the fields *inside* the line cannot escape > throught the shielding afforded by the outer conductor. Hence, these > "antenna" currents flowing on the outside of the line will be > responsible for radiation." > I must disagree with this statement in the Antenna Book. In a perfect coax cable, the entire field will be contained inside the shield. The equal and opposite currents on the center conductor and on the shield will cancel all radiation to the outside of the coax shield. This is why you can lay the coax on the ground, tape it to a tower leg and do all sorts of things with it that you could never do with a parallel conductor line and still have it perform properly. You can even ground it if you want, and no radiation will leak out to interfere with the ground point. Alas, the real world is not as easy as the theoretical one, and most coax braids do have some leakage, but a GOOD coax will have very little leakage. So inside a good coax, there exists a balanced field, and simply feeding a dipole by direct connection should connect these equal and opposite currents into the two halves of a dipole. Therefore IMHO - Coupling of the radiated wave (from the dipole) back onto the outside of the coax shield WILL cause RF on the outside of the coax, and will skew the radiation pattern of the dipole. If this happens to a parallel line, the induced current will have an effect on both conductors, and should be seen as a common mode current, while the transmitted signal is differential mode. With coax, the induced current is applied only on the outer shield while none should appear on the center conductor, resulting in a differential mode current which can add or subtract directly from the transmitted current. Physically running the feedline at right angles to the dipole is the only way I know of to keep this undesired coupling from occuring. The use of a choke balun should keep any of this induced current in check, and I believe that if it is to be effective it should be placed near the transmitter end, with the shack entrance being the most desirable location. I fail to see how a balun at the antenna end could keep this induced current out of the shack except that it will reduce the current on all parts of the coax shield, but this will also happen if it is placed at the shack end. An adequately sized coil of coax should be quite effective in acting as a choke balun. So why not coil up that extra coax outside the shack and hang it on a convenient nail. It will work. If the coil is not big enough, I would be inclined to add a chunk of ferite around the outside of the coax until all the RF was gone. > I think it is also safe to say that radiation from the coax is also > *partly* responsible for the skewed pattern that results when a dipole > is fed directly from a coaxial line. > > So, back to my original question. If the balun is omitted and a > shield choke is used instead (at the transmitter end of the feedline), > will the radiation pattern still be skewed? > > 73, > > Jack WB3U I don't know if I helped with your question Jack, but in theory, the pattern should not be skewed in the first place. I believe it is skewed only because we live in an imperfect world, and have to do the best we can with imperfect materials. My guess is the real answer is "it depends ,,," (on the antenna and feed configuration, nearby stuff, and lots of other things too numerous to think about.) For most real dipoles, why is a little pattern skewing really a bad thing, for we can't get into free space anyway. For a beam, this would be an important parameter. My $0.02 worth, 73 de W3FPR Don From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!parsifal.nando.net!usenet From: DB Wilhelm Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 17 Aug 1995 02:23:13 GMT Organization: News & Observer Public Access Lines: 39 Message-ID: <40u96h$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> References: <40qikf$o2a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vyger707.nando.net w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) wrote: > > (SNIP)... > >Why does current flow? Usually because there is a difference in > >potential between two points. Right? At the center of a matched dipole, > >there is no voltage. Right? So there is no current "flowing back down > >the coax". > > Absolutely.......NOT!!!! There certainly is voltage if there is any power > at > all! If the antenna is perfectly balanced 50 ohms with 1500 watts there is > > 274 volts RMS across the terminals or 387 volts peak. Half of this > voltage appears from the terminal connected to the shield and earth. The > voltage potential exists for appreciable current to flow in a matched > dipole system! If the antenna is not perfectly symmetrical this condition > can become either worse or better. > When the antenna is a resonant dipole, the feedpoint is an RF voltage minimum and a current maximum. Therefore we could ground the feedpoint of the dipole. This in fact is what is done in many beam antennas, the driven element is fastened to the boom, and the boom is often grounded as well. The point is that there should be zero volts RF across the feedpoint of a resonant dipole. In the real world of ham radio, we seem to tune our antennas not for resonance, but for minimum VSWR. (Unless the feedline Z0 is equal to the feedpoint impedance, the two points are different) Could it be that we do not really have a half wave dipole, and that is the real cause of most of the RF on the outside of the coax. If the feedpoint does have a voltage differential, there will be current flow on the outside of the coax since it is grounded, and will result in a skewed pattern to boot. 73 de W3FPR Don of the RF on the outside of the coax. I From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:12 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 17 Aug 1995 03:20:00 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 90 Message-ID: <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite187.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) DB Wilhelm wrote: >jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > > > > n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: > > > > >Here's a hot one for ya. Coax is really balanced. The current on the > > >center conductor is balanced against the current on the inside of the > > >outer conductor. > > > > > >Problems only arise when the outside of the shield picks up signal. [Jack's comments deleted to protect the innocent] >I must disagree with this statement in the Antenna Book. In a perfect >coax cable, the entire field will be contained inside the shield. The >equal and opposite currents on the center conductor and on the shield >will cancel all radiation to the outside of the coax shield. This is >why you can lay the coax on the ground, tape it to a tower leg and do >all sorts of things with it that you could never do with a parallel >conductor line and still have it perform properly. You can even ground >it if you want, and no radiation will leak out to interfere with the >ground point. > [Some comments deleted to make my newsreader happy] >Coupling of the radiated wave (from the dipole) back onto the outside >of the coax shield WILL cause RF on the outside of the coax, and will >skew the radiation pattern of the dipole. If this happens to a parallel >line, the induced current will have an effect on both conductors, and >should be seen as a common mode current, while the transmitted signal >is differential mode. With coax, the induced current is applied only >on the outer shield while none should appear on the center conductor, >resulting in a differential mode current which can add or subtract >directly from the transmitted current. > >Physically running the feedline at right angles to the dipole is the >only way I know of to keep this undesired coupling from occuring. >The use of a choke balun should keep any of this induced current in >check, and I believe that if it is to be effective it should be placed >near the transmitter end, with the shack entrance being the most >desirable location. I fail to see how a balun at the antenna end >could keep this induced current out of the shack except that it will >reduce the current on all parts of the coax shield, but this will >also happen if it is placed at the shack end. An adequately sized >coil of coax should be quite effective in acting as a choke balun. >So why not coil up that extra coax outside the shack and hang it >on a convenient nail. It will work. If the coil is not big enough, >I would be inclined to add a chunk of ferite around the outside of >the coax until all the RF was gone. > [More of Jack's comments deleted] > [More stuff deleted] Look at it this way... in one respect, the coax is a balanced transmission line, ie equal and opposite currents on the inside of the cable. The problem is, we are using it to feed an UNBALANCED radiator. What?, you say. A dipole is a balanced antenna. Yes I say, until you hang that transmission line on the feed point. Now you have one side fed with the inner conductor, which is enclosed in that nice Faraday shield and the other side fed with that outer conductor that has a propensity to radiate. What the currents "see" when they encounter the feed point are two different loads. The shield (inner) current has a load that consists of one half of the dipole in parallel with the outside of the cable. The center conductor is loaded by the other half of the dipole in parallel with --- the center conductor. The currents divide in inverse proportion to the parallel impedances, some into the dipole, some into the shield. The object of the choke balun is to simply make the shield impedance much higher than the half-dipole impedance, so the preponderance of the current flows in the dipole not in the shield. The balun will probably be most effective if it is used at the feed point, particularly on a multi-band antenna. Getting cute and putting it somewhere else on the line can bite you if you pick a quarter-wave multiple for the position. It is true that induced current from dipole radiation should cancel if the line is dressed away from the dipole properly. This does not correct for the above, however. Note that IMHO the seminal (what a word!) work on this topic is found in Volume 1 of the ARRL Antenna Compendium and is titled "Baluns: What They Do and How They Do It" by Roy, W7EL. Regards, Wes -- N7WS From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 16 Aug 1995 23:57:52 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 28 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40ueo0$5ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40u96h$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Hi Don, Sorry, but I disagree with this totally: >When the antenna is a resonant dipole, the feedpoint is an RF voltage >minimum and a current maximum. Therefore we could ground the feedpoint >of the dipole. This in fact is what is done in many beam antennas, >the driven element is fastened to the boom, and the boom is often >grounded as well. The point is that there should be zero volts RF >across the feedpoint of a resonant dipole. The key word is minimum, but the minimum can not be zero. If it is zero the power is zero. There is a finite amount of current, and a finite amount of voltage. If the SWR is 1:1 with a 50 ohm feedline, the voltage to current ratio must provide a 50 ohm impedance (this is similar to the source impedance I talked about in conjugate mating a PA stage to the load). So it boils down to E/I must equal 50 for a 1:1 SWR in a 50 ohm system. Whether it's 50 volts and one amp, or 5000 volts and 100 amps depends on the power level, but the ratio stays the same. I agree with Wes, the proper place is at the feedpoint. If the feedline is coupled to the antenna because of poor dress I would add a second choke balun where the feedline leaves the area of the antenna at a non-resonate length point. The top one would insure the currents were balanced at the antenna, the lower one would insure the feedline was not resonate and coupled heavily to the antenna. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:00:12 GMT Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <40vpse$1fh@nuclear.microserve.net> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> <40ufba$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 DB Wilhelm wrote: >Wes, I really don't know why anyone would want to feed a multiband >antenna with coax (I am assuming HF antennas). I would not want >to suffer the losses involved in using coax with a high VSWR. My >points are only valid for a resonant and matched dipole. Don, there are many reasons why someone might want to do this and it isn't always detrimental to any significant degree. I use totally random dipoles, and I feed them with ladder line. To prevent the balun at the tuner from misbehaving in the face of extreme reactance on some bands, I have relocated it to the input of the tuner's variable components. That said, the fact remains that there are specific combinations of non-resonant dipole lengths, in combination with cetrtain feedline lengths, that will yeild a more reasonable VSWR (reactance) on multiple bands. These combinations can be fed with coax, assuming a heavy-duty balun is installed at the center of the dipole. Coax loss that results from VSWR is not nearly as high as most people believe and some of these systems perform extremely well. The only reason I don't personally use them is my aversion to the need to use only a specific length feeder, and the fact that the use of ladder line does not pose a problem at my QTH. Yes, I like to think that I might "get out" better than a similar system with coax. In reality though, the difference between my system and a coax system is probably undetectable on the air. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:33:21 GMT Lines: 58 Message-ID: <808678039.7176@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 DB Wilhelm wrote: >jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > > Not true. The ARRL Antenna Book explains this best: >I must disagree with this statement in the Antenna Book. In a >perfect coax cable, the entire field will be contained inside the >shield. The equal and opposite currents on the center conductor and >on the shield will cancel all radiation to the outside of the coax >shield. At the point where the coax connects to the dipole, the outer shield no longer encloses the inner conductor. It is at this point that the feedline's inherent internal field cancellation properties are lost, and at which the RF is free to take any available path to ground. Thus, current flows down the outside of the shield. >This is why you can lay the coax on the ground, tape it to a tower >leg and do all sorts of things with it that you could never do with a >parallel conductor line and still have it perform properly. You can >even ground it if you want, and no radiation will leak out to >interfere with the ground point. > >Alas, the real world is not as easy as the theoretical one, and most >coax braids do have some leakage, but a GOOD coax will have very >little leakage. The issue is not one of leakage, rather, the problem occurs because an unbalanced source has been connected to a balanced load. >So inside a good coax, there exists a balanced field, and simply >feeding a dipole by direct connection should connect these equal and >opposite currents into the two halves of a dipole. Please see my other post on the meaning of "balance". The fields in the coax are equal and opposite, but they are not necessarily at the same potential with respect to ground. This means they are only balanced with respect to each other, and will unbalance any symmetrical "floating" load to which they are fed. >Physically running the feedline at right angles to the dipole is the >only way I know of to keep this undesired coupling from occuring. No, it won't help. The current on the outside of the coax is not the result of current induced due to its proximity to the dipole. It is caused by the RF exiting the coax attempting to travel to ground. Don, I appreciate your comments on this, but I think we're not in agreement on the basic premise. IMO, the radiation pattern becomes skewed because an unbalanced feed is connected to a balanced load. If we don't agree on this point, my question regarding the choke balun at the transmitter becomes non-sensical. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:17 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 17 Aug 1995 16:49:02 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 41 Message-ID: <40vrtu$3pq@news.azstarnet.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> <40ufba$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite50.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) To: w3fpr@nando.net DB Wilhelm wrote: >Wes Stewart wrote: > > Snip... > > > > The balun will probably be most effective if it is used at the feed point, particularly on a > > multi-band antenna. Getting cute and putting it somewhere else on the line can bite you if you > > pick a quarter-wave multiple for the position. > > [snip]> >Wes, I really don't know why anyone would want to feed a multiband >antenna with coax (I am assuming HF antennas). I would not want >to suffer the losses involved in using coax with a high VSWR. My >points are only valid for a resonant and matched dipole. Sorry, I >failed to make that clarification. > >73 de W3FPR >Don > Don: Does not a trap-dipole or tri-band beam qualify as a multi-band antenna? I have protested against the idea that tuned feeders are a great idea (good maybe, but not great) but I have no problem with using coax to feed an antenna which has been resonated on each frequency of interest. To clarify my previous point. Assume a 40/80 meter trap-dipole. For whatever reason, we decide that a distance of 1/2 wavelength on 40 meters is a good place for the choke balun. Theoretically, the impedance repeats every half-wavelength so the line behaves as though the choke is at the feed point. We QSY to 80 meters. Oooops --- the choke is 1/4 wavelength from the feed point. Because of the magic properties of 1/4 wave lines, the high impedance generated by the choke is transformed (inverted) to a very low impedance at the feed point. The current division between the dipole half and the shield moves in the wrong direction. Could be that this is actually a better radiator in some circumstance, but it is just circumstantial. Regards, Wes From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 15:27:44 GMT Lines: 25 Message-ID: <808674097.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Wes Stewart wrote: >Look at it this way... in one respect, the coax is a balanced >transmission line, ie equal and opposite currents on the inside of >the cable. The problem is, we are using it to feed an >UNBALANCED radiator. I think we have a point of confusion here that's semantic in nature. The fact that currents on the inside of the coax are equal and opposite does not mean that the feedline is balanced. In order to qualify as balanced, opposing voltages within the feedline, and at both its source and load, must also be equidistant from ground. This requires that the feedline (or any source or load) be electrically symmetrical. In most cases at RF, this also means it will be physically summetrical. It is the symmetry of the entire system with respect to ground that maintains balance. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 17 Aug 1995 17:22:26 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 48 Message-ID: <40vtsi$3pq@news.azstarnet.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> <808674097.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite50.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > Wes Stewart wrote: > >>Look at it this way... in one respect, the coax is a balanced >>transmission line, ie equal and opposite currents on the inside of >>the cable. The problem is, we are using it to feed an >>UNBALANCED radiator. > >I think we have a point of confusion here that's semantic in nature. Agreed. But I did try to qualify this remark with "in one respect" > >The fact that currents on the inside of the coax are equal and >opposite does not mean that the feedline is balanced. In order to >qualify as balanced, opposing voltages within the feedline, and at >both its source and load, must also be equidistant from ground. Back to semantics -- from the perspective of the fields on the inside of the line, they don't care one wit what's happening outside. It isn't until we introduce a THIRD conductor (ground) that we can talk about unbalance. It's the purpose of the balun to _disconnect_ this third conductor. >This requires that the feedline (or any source or load) be >electrically symmetrical. In most cases at RF, this also means it >will be physically summetrical. > >It is the symmetry of the entire system with respect to ground that >maintains balance. > >73, > >Jack WB3U Let's take a battery-powered rf source and enclose it in a totally shielded box. Introduce a coaxial connector into the wall of the box and connect to it an arbritrary length of perfectly shielded cable. Terminate the far end of the cable with a perfectly shielded termination. I believe that we agree that the transmission line currents on the inside of the line are equal and opposite. So let's see what is going on outside. Well -- nothing, actually. I can think of no way to know what is going on inside this system by measuring something from the outside. We can ground the box, ground the load, ground the cable anywhere on its length, unground anything or everything and it still makes no difference. Is this system balanced with respect to ground? I believe it is. I know this flies in the face of conventional wisdom and you and many others might continue to disagree but I offer it as food for thought. Regards, Wes -- N7WS From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 17 Aug 1995 16:32:57 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 34 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41091p$ja5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40vtsi$3pq@news.azstarnet.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Wes wrote: *snip* >I can think of no way to know what is going on inside this system by >measuring something from the outside. We can ground the box, >ground the load, ground the cable anywhere on its length, unground >anything or everything and it still makes no difference. That makes sense Wes. The coax "doesn't care" if it is connected to earth or not. Radiation stops when the current in the center and shield are equal and 180 degrees out of phase. The center conductor can be grounded and the shield connected to the point where the center conductor normally is, and the line still won't radiate if good choke balun is installed. In some power amplifiers this technique is used to provide a 180 degree phase inversion to drive a push pull stage, or in more sophisticated forms to accurately transform impedances over extremly wide bandwidths. The simplest way to see these equal currents "in action" is to connect two small light bulbs in series at the end of a short piece of coax mounted over a piece of PC board. Ground the shield to the PC board at the input, and put some good ferrite sleeves over the cable. Drive the input with RF until the bulbs just light, and then ground each connection point of the series bulb string to the PC board (one point at a time!). If the sleeve was properly selected to provide enough choking impedance, both bulbs will light the same amount no matter what single point is grounded ...either the shield side or the center conductor side, or even the middle of the bulbs. I believe this illustrates the point you made Wes. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:21 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!iglou!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> <40ufba$9sl@ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 19:41:42 GMT Lines: 19 parsifal.nando.net> <40vpse$1fh@nuclear.microserve.net> Organization: IgLou Internet Services Distribution: world : reactance on some bands, I have relocated it to the input of the : tuner's variable components. Concerning putting the balun on the input of the tuner; I've wondered how this works. It sounds like a good idea but would there be a greater chance of rf on the case of the tuner? Would this require insulated knobs etc? -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:21 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 21:18:16 GMT Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET Lines: 37 Distribution: world Message-ID: <410cgs$6gg@nuclear.microserve.net> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> <808674097.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> <40vtsi$3pq@news.azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Wes Stewart wrote: >jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: >> >>I think we have a point of confusion here that's semantic in nature. > >Agreed. But I did try to qualify this remark with "in one respect" Yes you did. Still, given that I have heard this twice during the course of the thread, I wanted to clarify it. :) >Let's take a battery-powered rf source and enclose it in a totally << additional description deleted >> >I can think of no way to know what is going on inside this system by >measuring something from the outside. We can ground the box, ground >the load, ground the cable anywhere on its length, unground anything >or everything and it still makes no difference. Is this system >balanced with respect to ground? I believe it is. Your conclusion is based on the invalid assumption that "ground" is synonymous with "earth". "Ground" refers to the zero-voltage reference point that the transmission system (i.e. antenna) works against. Because we were talking about a terrestrial-based system that radiates RF over earth ground, earth was the reference for the previous discussions. Your hypothetical system is independant of earth because you have moved the reference point. In effect, you have constructed an artificial ground plane that encloses the entire system. Relative to that ground plane, the system is *not* balanced. Sorry Wes, no ceegar fer you. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 21:35:44 GMT Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET Lines: 40 Distribution: world Message-ID: <410dhl$6gg@nuclear.microserve.net> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> <40ufba$9sl@ NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: > I wrote: >: reactance on some bands, I have relocated it to the input of the >: tuner's variable components. > >Concerning putting the balun on the input of the tuner; > >I've wondered how this works. It sounds like a good idea but would >there be a greater chance of rf on the case of the tuner? Would >this require insulated knobs etc? Ahh HAH!!! Someone who _hasn't_ seen my previous posts on this. Heh, heh. Just kidding Steve. 'Balun first" tuners (my description) work very well. Yes, *everything* has to be isolated from ground. My tuner is a Dentron SST ("3KW") that I modified for this. I moved the tap switch onto a very thick homebrew aluminum "L" bracket mounted on ceramic standoffs, then added a fiber shaft and front panel chassis bearing. I also had to pull the bottom of the inductor off ground. The capacitors were already on standoffs and already had plastic shaft couplers and plastic knobs. The input balun is inside the case, fed from the original input connector. In fact, from the outside the tuner looks completely original. I used to feed ladder line to a 55-60' dipole with this arrangement on 160 through 10 meters. On 80 - 10, I was running a KW. Even being on the second floor with no RF ground on the system, there was *never* any RF in the shack. Other antennas have given similar results. This system works extremely well and does an excellent job of keeping the system balanced. You can find a representative circuit in the ARRL Handbook in the Balanced QRP Tuner construction article. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 17 Aug 1995 21:41:28 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 31 Message-ID: <410d28$9ln@news.azstarnet.com> References: <40vtsi$3pq@news.azstarnet.com> <41091p$ja5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite43.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) wrote: >Wes wrote: > >*snip* [snip] >The center conductor can be grounded and the shield connected to the >point where the center conductor normally is, and the line still won't >radiate if good choke balun is installed. In some power amplifiers this >technique is used to provide a 180 degree phase inversion to drive a >push pull stage, or in more sophisticated forms to accurately transform >impedances over extremly wide bandwidths. I've seen this done. Thanks for pointing it out. This phase inversion can also be accomplished over a narrow band by grounding the shield 1/4 wavelength from the open end. >The simplest way to see these equal currents "in action" is to connect >two small light bulbs in series at the end of a short piece of coax >mounted over a piece of PC board.... [snip] >I believe this illustrates the point you made Wes. > >73 Tom Indeed it does, Tom. I've tried the same experiment with different equipment. Mine was a slightly more expensive HP8510 Network Analyzer (~$150K more) , but the answer comes out the same. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 23:05:15 GMT Lines: 37 Message-ID: <808701557.13613@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <344297559-950809053218@racebbs.com> <808203450.14179@pinetree.microserve.com> <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> <40ufba$9sl@ NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: >Concerning putting the balun on the input of the tuner; > >I've wondered how this works. It sounds like a good idea but would >there be a greater chance of rf on the case of the tuner? Would >this require insulated knobs etc? Ahh HAH!!! Someone who _hasn't_ seen my previous posts on this. Heh, heh. Just kidding Steve. 'Balun first" tuners (my description) work very well. Yes, *everything* has to be isolated from ground. My tuner is a Dentron SST ("3KW") that I modified for this. I moved the tap switch onto a very thick homebrew aluminum "L" bracket mounted on ceramic standoffs, then added a fiber shaft and front panel chassis bearing. I also had to pull the bottom of the inductor off ground. The capacitors were already on standoffs and already had plastic shaft couplers and plastic knobs. The input balun is inside the case, fed from the original input connector. In fact, from the outside the tuner looks completely original. I used to feed ladder line to a 55-60' dipole with this arrangement on 160 through 10 meters. On 80 - 10, I was running a KW. Even being on the second floor with no RF ground on the system, there was *never* any RF in the shack. Other antennas have given similar results. This system works extremely well and does an excellent job of keeping the system balanced. You can find a representative circuit in the ARRL Handbook in the Balanced QRP Tuner construction article. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsjunkie.ans.net!netnews.lightside.com!user55.lightside.com!user From: wb6siv@lightside.com (Raymond J. Sarrio) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:11:28 +0100 Organization: Raymond Sarrio Co. Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <40qikf$o2a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <40u96h$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user55.lightside.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We carry a book in our WWW catalog titled "Building and using baluns and ununs" by Jerry Sevick W2FMI. I think it will answer many of your questions. The WWW site is at URL http://www.csz.com/sarrio.html. Hope the book helps, 73's Ray -- Ray Sarrio Co. http://www.csz.com/sarrio.html From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ecrc.de!news.forth.gr!news-ath.forthnet.gr!news.compulink.gr!usenet From: zliangas@athena.compulink.gr (Zacharias Liangas) Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: beam antenna project: HELP Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 21:37:24 GMT Organization: ME!!!!! Lines: 62 Sender: zliangas@athena.compulink.gr Distribution: world Expires: 10 days Message-ID: <410fk4$1oj@news.compulink.gr> Reply-To: zliangas@athena.compulink.gr NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.compulink.gr X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.shortwave:57259 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13055 Dear friends I have a big doubt so I post this masage here First lemme tell you my system configuration fr the moment before I advise you my problem : I use a SONY ICF 7600D , a Lowe HF150 and a Philips Magnavox 2395 all are digital - wire antennas - of 6m sloped 60 deg paralel to az 120 deg - and a hor wire 13 m [aralel to 15 deg az .Both are TV antenna mast guides -home brewn ATU operating 2- 7 mHz for 20 - 5 dB respectively Palce of Reception ; Thessaloniki 40N 23E Due to my interest in SEA I have the particular interest for listening to the folowing radio stations and under the condidtions as below : - STM / V o Malaysia ( dir 120 dg az) in 15295 at mean levels of 2- 3 with QRMers as R Liberty fgrom 15290 at levels S4-5 ( abt 15-25 dB more) R F I from 15300 at nearly same as R L from varius hand made account-ments I understood that a great amount of signal abt 50-60% is lost due to possible reflexions coming from the city's mountains at an angle of 270-025 deg az -RRI Jakarta in 9680 at mean levels (not always receivable) of S1-2 Only V of Turkey is QRMer at 9675 but not always QRMing due to very low mod - R Singapore in 6000 at mean levels of S2to 3 with Deutschlandfunk in 6005 (S4) as the only QRMer or sometimes Radio Dubai at 6000 but at verylow level I asked the experts of my city for making a common antenna constru ction for these 3 freqs of a antenna individual per band , I also read many boks abt antennas found solutions but most of them are un- suitable for my place ( they were quad - X beam for example) as I have minimal room in the 7 level building and possibly can use only small constructions of no more than 4 x 4 sqm PLease help me , and suggest a good protype fr beam antenna(s) under the above conditions Thank you in advance zliangas@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr PLEASE ADIVSE ME YOUR OPINIONS BY EMAIL ONLY ! ====== test for 8-bit æá÷áñéáò ëéÜãêáò Zakaria Liang! (namanya untuk kawan sahaja!) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:28 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!slafetra From: slafetra@ppg01.sc.hp.com (Skip LaFetra) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V-X: Need Guys? Date: 16 Aug 1995 15:07:13 GMT Organization: Hewlett Packard Lines: 8 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <40t1j1$o6h@hpscit.sc.hp.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppg01.sc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.2] If I recall correctly (and I'm pretty certain that I do), the literature which came with my HF6V-X claimed that it will withstand 80 mph winds. Mine bends a lot (and would probably get to darn close to horizontal long before the winds hit 80 mph), but it does seem to handle the wind quite well. - Skip AA6WK From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:29 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!ncr-sd!lcpd2!copsw61!gr5 From: gr5@ElSegundoCA.ATTGIS.COM (Gary Rotter) Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenn Message-ID: Sender: news@lcpd2.SanDiegoCA.ATTGIS.COM (News Administrator) Nntp-Posting-Host: copsw61.elsegundoca.attgis.com Reply-To: gr5@ElSegundoCA.ATTGIS.COM Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions References: Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:20:28 GMT Lines: 28 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:84996 rec.radio.amateur.policy:29008 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12951 In article Fn4@netcom.com, stevew@netcom.com (Steve Wilson) writes: [Some quoted text deleted to save space] > : Bob W8ERD > > ARRL national has attempted from time to time to make such connections > but my understanding is that they have always been rebuffed. The > developer's associations, etc. don't need, nor want our input into > their business. A shame really. > > Steve KA6S Perhaps a letter writing campaign from a few thousand hams saying that they are unwilling to buy new homes with CC&Rs that totaly restrict all antennas would get a response. I am willing to live some restrictions but most CC&Rs restrict all antennas. I have even seen CC&Rs which restrict all operation of "shortwave" transmitters and receivers! So, does anyone know who to write to ? --- Gary Rotter Phone: (310) 524-7672 Teradata Decision Enabling Systems Center Email: gr5@ElSegundoca.ATTGIS.COM AT&T Global Information Solutions Voice Plus: 427-7672 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gdss.grumman.com!usenet From: higniro@gdss.grumman.com (Rod Hignite) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: CCR restrictions (was Re: Local Antenna Restrictions) Date: 16 Aug 1995 14:08:04 GMT Organization: Northrop Grumman Data Systems; Herndon, VA Lines: 13 Message-ID: <40su44$mjp@moose.gdss.grumman.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: higniro1.grumman.com X-Newsreader: Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:85035 rec.radio.amateur.policy:29013 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:12976 > > *** Much Deleted **** > I think it is high time that we reconsider the amount > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >of power these little tyrants sitting on HOA boards give themselves! >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Steve KA6S In a nutshell - Steve says it all...... Rod - KB3MK From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!noah!dbeach From: dbeach@kean.ucs.mun.ca (David Beach, NorFam, Memorial University) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Coax Collinear VHF Ant. Plans Wanted Date: 17 Aug 95 10:08:29 -0330 NST Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1995Aug17.100829.1@noah> NNTP-Posting-Host: noah.ucs.mun.ca I have a surplus 150 MHz whip which, after X-raying, seems to be constructed from modified coaxial cable inside a hollow, flexible fibreglass casing. I presume it is a coaxial collinear. Before I begin cutting and chopping to make this antenna resonate on 2M, I would like to get some more theory on this type of antenna. My standard references (1994 ARRL Handbook and Antenna Book and an old Antenna Anthology) make no reference to coax collinears. I would prefer not to buy another book if possible - any on-line references to this type of antenna? If not, any suggestions for books or articles? David Beach VO2BD From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Corrected: major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 01:42:42 GMT Message-ID: <1003198191-950816184242@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 68 -> Path: global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell -> From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) -> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna -> Lines: 64 -> -> -> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbonham.seanet.com -> -> X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) -> -> -> -> I'm looking for someone who knows antennas and other RF design iss -> -> help me with a patented -> -> wildlife monitoring system. The amount of available money will de -> -> what happens in September -> -> when I show a prototype at a national conference for wildlife biol -> -> Portland. -> -> I have jillions of questions - but one question is fairly urgent -> -> to transmit at 220 MHz between -> -> two fixed, line-of-sight points, but my transmitter can put out on -> -> I can use directional antennas -> -> for both transmit and receive. What's the most gain I can expect -> -> out of an antenna, what's the -> -> best general design, and how far can I expect to clearly transmit -> -> signal that has a deviation of -> -> only 300 Hz? -> -> If anyone is interested in helping with this project, please let -> -> Thanks, -> -> D.Bonham -> -> -> Well, you left out some important information about your receiver! -> So, I am going to assume some things based on experience. -> -> 10mw = 10dbm -> -> assume a directional antenna of 7db gain. -> assume misc. transmit losses of 1.5 db -> -> 10db+7db-1.5db = 15.5 db transmit signal. -> -> Assume a RSL of -70dbm for good receiver quiting and a reasonable -> path fade margin. -> Assume a receiver antenna gain of 7db -> Assume 1.5db losses -> (-70) - 7 + 1.5 = -75.5dbm rsl required at antenna. -> -> Using the formula... -> free-space path attenuation= -> 36.6 + 20 log f(mhz) + 20 log d(miles) -> -> 15.5dbm tx power + (-75.5dbmRSL) = 90.5db path loss -> 90.5 = 36.6 + 20 log 220(mhz) + 20 log d(miles) 90.5 = 36.6 + 46.848 + 20 log d 90.5 = 83.448 + 20 log d 7.052 = 20 log d .3526 = log d 2.25 = d My first post was way off! I made a direction error...I shoulda went right and went left! Oh well! Above is a corrected figure of 2.25 miles. 15.5 >-------path loss----------------------->-75.5 Sorry for the first bloop! I gota quit doing this stuff at 5am! Jim Wooddell jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Counterpoises for Butternut vertical Date: 17 Aug 1995 00:09:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 41 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40ufd1$5if@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40d0eg$onq@news.cc.oberlin.edu> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Hi Bill, I see you access through Oberlin. I used to live in South Amherst on Russia and Quarry Roads when that was all farm land. I loved it there. You wrote: >I'm wondering if putting single counterpoise wires for each of the >WARC bands between 80-10m out from my ground-mounted >Butternut might result in the same success I'm enjoying on 2m. There probably is no simple universally correct answer for that. But in general if there are enough wires the length doesn't need to be resonant. To be resonant they must be some distance above earth. >I really enjoy using the HF6V vertical, and wonder if counterpoises >draped over the ground in the ravine behind our rental might eliminate >the RFI enough so that I can start to use the vertical again. Only if the interference is caused by parallel currents on the feedline or maybe a "hot" radial that is somehow coupled to the neighbors stuff. If it is the feedline you could install a choke type balun (such as a simple air wound solenoid of coax) in the feedline near the antenna. If the interference is due to the antenna's normal radiation, improving the ground can only make the interference worse. Remember the vertical's maximum response is along the horizon, and the dipole's (at low heights) is straight up. Also, did you try a good low pass filter? Are the connections on the antenna all good (no corroded joints that may generate harmonics)? Is the antenna away from the CATV and power lines or the neighbor's antenna? >but am not sure what the right length for each should be...is it >a simple mechanical 1/4 wavelength I measured some elevated radials (8 feet high) on 80 meters. The resonant length on 3.8 MHz was around 61 feet. So 232 divided by frequency should work OK. It is not very critical. 73 Tom W8JI From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:34 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!szinski From: szinski@prairienet.org (Steve Zinski) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Dressler ARA30 antenna - HELP! Date: 16 Aug 1995 23:39:32 GMT Organization: Prairienet, the East-Central Illinois Free-Net Lines: 10 Message-ID: <40tvjk$39g@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I was just given (for free) a Dressler ARA30 Active Receiving Antenna and I am wondering what it is used for. Any help would be appreciated. --Steve -- ============================================================ == Steven C. Zinski - N9VAH == szinski@prairienet.org == == Richmond, Virginia, USA == == ============================================================ From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: 16 Aug 1995 01:03:36 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 36 Message-ID: <40rg58$qjn@news.azstarnet.com> References: <40p5sj$75i@news.azstarnet.com> <808475739.15184@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite191.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > Wes Stewart wrote: > >>In a never published letter to QST's Technical Correspondence Column, >>I explored this "Feed anything with low-loss line and your problems >>are over" idea. In a word, this is BS. > > << good information deleted >> > >>Look at it this way, you have a very short antenna. The efficiency >>is poor and it's a problem to match. > >Would you agree that the efficiency of the antenna itself is poor only >if its I2R losses are significint? Not exactly. I2R loss is what we are after, as long as the R is _radiation_ resistance. The antenna efficiency is equal to Rr/(Rr+Rl) where Rr is the real part of the radiation resistance and Rl is the sum of all the other loss resistances, ie, ground, conductor, loading coils, etc. Clearly, if Rr is relatively large and Rl is small then (antenna) efficiency is high. If the antenna is a small loop with Rr less than an ohm, then it doesn't take much loss resistance to put the efficiency in the toilet. On the other hand, if the antenna is a full-wave loop, then Rr ~ 140 ohm and small loss resistances don't take much of a toll. 'Course, get that small loop efficiency too high and the bandwidth will be so narrow you can't use it . You'll be like NAA running FSK, tuning the antenna between mark and space. None of this addresses line and tuner losses tho... >BTW, zip cord works very well if you split it apart and install >ceramic spacers. Right you are, I hadn't thought of doing that . Regards, Wes From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:35 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40r22v$soj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 02:48:55 GMT Lines: 14 : I would be willing to bet a trap vertical with a good ground system would : beat any ground independent antenna of the same length if the antennas are : electrically short. Ok then. Put your 2 meter 1/4 wave vertical on the ground with some radials and compare it to the same antenna with radials which is up off the ground say 30ft. or so. What about all these guys using "elevated feed verticals" for 80 and 160 meter dx work? They all claim far superior results than one mounted on the ground and at a far less expense of ground wires. -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: 15 Aug 1995 23:39:45 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 26 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40rpa1$8f4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Steve wrote: >>>>> Ok then. Put your 2 meter 1/4 wave vertical on the ground with some radials and compare it to the same antenna with radials which is up off the ground say 30ft. or so. What about all these guys using "elevated feed verticals" for 80 and 160 meter dx work? They all claim far superior results than one mounted on the ground and at a far less expense of ground wires. -- Steve <<<<< We can't compare apples to oranges Steve. The two meter antenna at 30 feet is nearly 5 wavelengths above ground. The lossy earth is in the far field of that antenna. There is no comparison between the two meter example you gave and a 160 meter vertical placed 1/10 wavelength above lossy earth. In this case the earth is in the near field of the meager ground system. To be more fair, place the two meter antenna 7.6 inches above ground. Compare that to a two meter antenna on the ground. That is a realistic comparison. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:37 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40rpa1$8f4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 12:16:29 GMT Lines: 35 W8JI Tom (w8jitom@aol.com) wrote: : Steve wrote: : We can't compare apples to oranges Steve. The two meter antenna at 30 feet : is nearly 5 wavelengths above ground. The lossy earth is in the far field : of that antenna. : There is no comparison between the two meter example you gave and a 160 : meter vertical placed 1/10 wavelength above lossy earth. In this case the : earth is in the near field of the meager ground system. : To be more fair, place the two meter antenna 7.6 inches above ground. : Compare that to a two meter antenna on the ground. That is a realistic : comparison. Lossy earth. Howbout this. "Ground independent" veritcals (don't you just love how new jargon crops up) supposingly have their high current portion elevated above ground. This is supposed to reduce near field ground loss. I have had two Cushcraft R7's pass through my hands recently. I mounted one about 8ft off the ground. Performance compared to my 160m horizontal loop at 65ft. on 40m was excellent. in fact, almost identical. The higher bands were lousey. I put the other R7 on top of the tower. Performance on 40 was terrible. The higher bands performed somewhat better but still no where close to the loop. -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:38 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: 16 Aug 1995 10:13:12 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 30 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40sudo$h5t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Steve wrote: >Lossy earth. Howbout this. "Ground independent" veritcals (don't you >just love how new jargon crops up) That's not new jargon. I have millitary antenna design books that used that jargon in the 40's. > supposingly have their high current portion elevated above ground. This is >supposed to reduce near fieldground loss. The key word is "supposed". That is a huge supposition. > I have had two Cushcraft R7's pass through my hands recently. I mounted one >about 8ft off the ground. Performance compared to my 160m horizontal loop at >65ft. on 40m was excellent. in fact, almost identical. The higher bands were >lousey. I have one here and compared to a ground mounted Butternut it is weaker on every band (but weaker by the least amount on ten meters). A 40 meter dipole at 85 feet smokes it and even beats the Butternut (unless the signal is off the ends of the dipole). >I put the other R7 on top of the tower. Performance on 40 was terrible. >The higher bands performed somewhat better but still no where close > to the loop. And what opinion have you formed from this Steve? 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:39 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40sudo$h5t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:38:02 GMT Lines: 46 W8JI Tom (w8jitom@aol.com) wrote: : Steve wrote: : >Lossy earth. Howbout this. "Ground independent" veritcals (don't you : >just love how new jargon crops up) : That's not new jargon. I have millitary antenna design books that used : that jargon in the 40's. : > supposingly have their high current portion elevated above ground. This : is >supposed to reduce near fieldground loss. : The key word is "supposed". That is a huge supposition. : > I have had two Cushcraft R7's pass through my hands recently. I mounted : one >about 8ft off the ground. Performance compared to my 160m horizontal : loop at >65ft. on 40m was excellent. in fact, almost identical. The higher : bands were >lousey. : I have one here and compared to a ground mounted Butternut it is weaker on : every band (but weaker by the least amount on ten meters). A 40 meter : dipole at 85 feet smokes it and even beats the Butternut (unless the : signal is off the ends of the dipole). : >I put the other R7 on top of the tower. Performance on 40 was terrible. : >The higher bands performed somewhat better but still no where close : > to the loop. : And what opinion have you formed from this Steve? Just like I suspected all along. The Butternut is the best of the sticks. Check out the article in the new QST, Sept 95, where several mobile antennas were compared. I'de like your opinion on this one. It was a contest for the strongest 75 meter mobile signal. The benchmark was a Hamstick. The winner was more than 10db stronger. Measurements took place at a distance of 2000ft. What does this prove? 10db seems like too much to me. Could it just be the radiation angles beign slightly different. Also, different vehicles were used. -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:40 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!atha!rwa From: rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: 16 Aug 1995 17:53:24 GMT Organization: Athabasca University Lines: 22 Message-ID: <40tbal$2cq@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> References: <40r22v$soj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aupair.cs.athabascau.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #10 (NOV) n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) writes: >: I would be willing to bet a trap vertical with a good ground system would >: beat any ground independent antenna of the same length if the antennas are >: electrically short. > Ok then. Put your 2 meter 1/4 wave vertical on the ground with some > radials and compare it to the same antenna with radials which is up > off the ground say 30ft. or so. What about all these guys using > "elevated feed verticals" for 80 and 160 meter dx work? They all > claim far superior results than one mounted on the ground and at a > far less expense of ground wires. What point are you making? You seem to be in violent agreement with the first poster :). Elevated radials are "a good ground system" if results are anything to go by. "Ground independant" doesn't mean monopole+radials; radials are an artificial ground. regards, Ross ve6pdq -- Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- rwa@cs.athabascau.ca From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:40 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!atha!rwa From: rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: 16 Aug 1995 17:57:09 GMT Organization: Athabasca University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <40tbhl$2cs@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> References: <40rpa1$8f4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aupair.cs.athabascau.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #10 (NOV) n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) writes: >I mounted [an R7] about 8ft off the ground. Performance compared >to my 160m horizontal loop at 65ft. on 40m was excellent. in fact, almost >identical. The higher bands were lousey. >I put the other R7 on top of the tower. Performance on 40 was terrible. >The higher bands performed somewhat better but still no where close >to the loop. Since you don't say how long the 40m path lengths were, and since a horizontal loop is a cloud warmer by definition, it's hard to conclude very much from this anecdote. regards, Ross ve6pdq -- Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- rwa@cs.athabascau.ca From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:41 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 21:01:53 GMT Lines: 38 Message-ID: <808607745.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40sudo$h5t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: >Check out the article in the new QST, Sept 95, where several mobile >antennas were compared. I'de like your opinion on this one. > >It was a contest for the strongest 75 meter mobile signal. The >benchmark was a Hamstick. The winner was more than 10db stronger. >Measurements took place at a distance of 2000ft. What does this >prove? 10db seems like too much to me. Could it just be the radiation >angles beign slightly different. Also, different vehicles were used. These tests emphasize a basic problem in our service, but are also problematic in themselves. The interest generated by the tests serves to underscore, and is largely the result of, the manufacturers' continued failure to publish complete and meaningful product performance specifications. Illumination of this fact is the only value to be found in the publication of the tests mentioned above. Because some readers will fail to recognize this, however, the authors have done a not insignificant disservice to the Amateur community by publishing the article. Even if it is assumed that flawed results are harmless (they're not), the very existence of the tests reinforces the concept that in the face of insufficient product data, independent testing is not only acceptable, but normal and routine. This effectively validates the manufacturers' lack of accountability, and to both the reader and the industry represents an official sanctioning of their negligence. Given the unscientific and less than worthless results of this particular test, is it also any wonder the manufacturers remain unconcerned? 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:42 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40rpa1$8f4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <40tbhl$2cs@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:35:22 GMT Lines: 35 Ross Alexander (rwa@cs.athabascau.ca) wrote: : n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) writes: : >I mounted [an R7] about 8ft off the ground. Performance compared : >to my 160m horizontal loop at 65ft. on 40m was excellent. in fact, almost : >identical. The higher bands were lousey. : >I put the other R7 on top of the tower. Performance on 40 was terrible. : >The higher bands performed somewhat better but still no where close : >to the loop. : Since you don't say how long the 40m path lengths were, and since a : horizontal loop is a cloud warmer by definition, it's hard to conclude : very much from this anecdote. : regards, : Ross ve6pdq : -- : Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- rwa@cs.athabascau.ca Results were the same on all paths, long and short. The R7 was WAY down compared to the loop in all directions and all distances. A 160 meter horizontal loop on 40m is not a cloud warmer. Computer generated patterns as well as experience shows that it has a low angle on 40 and above. I think it is around 25 degrees or lower. The higher the frequency, the lower the angle of the biggest lobe. This is beauty of the horizontal loop. Low angles on higher frequencies is a real advantage for a utility antenna. -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: 17 Aug 1995 00:09:12 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 20 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40ufd8$5iq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >A 160 meter horizontal loop on 40m is not a cloud warmer. Computer >generated patterns as well as experience shows that it has a low >angle on 40 and above. I think it is around 25 degrees or lower. >The higher the frequency, the lower the angle of the biggest lobe. No, the higher the antenna in terms of WAVELENGTH the lower the radiation angle. As you move up in frequency, the height in WL goes up so the radiation angle drops. >This is beauty of the horizontal loop. Low angles on higher frequencies >is a real advantage for a utility antenna. This is the beauty of increasing the operating frequency. For the same height above ground, the wave angle lowers with nearly any elevated antenna (one exception, a vertical without traps or decoupling that splits into high angle lobes from out of phase currents in the radiator). My dipole has a lower angle of radiation on 20 than on 80. ;-) 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!mango.epix.net!gmfoster From: Garry Foster Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:21:16 -0400 Organization: epix.net Lines: 76 Message-ID: References: <40sudo$h5t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <808607745.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mango.epix.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: gmfoster@mango.epix.net In-Reply-To: <808607745.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, WB3U wrote: :> n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: :> :> >Check out the article in the new QST, Sept 95, where several mobile :> >antennas were compared. I'de like your opinion on this one. :> > :> >It was a contest for the strongest 75 meter mobile signal. The :> >benchmark was a Hamstick. The winner was more than 10db stronger. :> >Measurements took place at a distance of 2000ft. What does this :> >prove? 10db seems like too much to me. Could it just be the radiation :> >angles beign slightly different. Also, different vehicles were used. :> ;> These tests emphasize a basic problem in our service, but are also :> problematic in themselves. :> :> The interest generated by the tests serves to underscore, and is :> largely the result of, the manufacturers' continued failure to publish :> complete and meaningful product performance specifications. :> Illumination of this fact is the only value to be found in the :> publication of the tests mentioned above. :> :> Because some readers will fail to recognize this, however, the authors :> have done a not insignificant disservice to the Amateur community by :> publishing the article. Even if it is assumed that flawed results are :> harmless (they're not), the very existence of the tests reinforces the :> concept that in the face of insufficient product data, independent :> testing is not only acceptable, but normal and routine. This :> effectively validates the manufacturers' lack of accountability, and :> to both the reader and the industry represents an official sanctioning :> of their negligence. :> :> Given the unscientific and less than worthless results of this :> particular test, is it also any wonder the manufacturers remain :> unconcerned? :> :> 73, :> :> Jack WB3U :> :> Jack Even the experts cam't agree on what constitutes "proper" specifications, so I don't really understand all this beating up of antenna manfactures. If people don't have enough understanding of the principles to have a very good idea of what works and what doesn't the all the real data in the world won't mean anything to them/us. And what one person considers worthless is an inportant issus to another. I think A/B tests are about the best type of testing there is and this is basically what the test in QST was. Also much (if not most ) of the 75 meter work is on ground wave so the 2000 ft path seems reasonable. (I would have perfered a longer path over typical terrian:however I don't think many could agree on typical.) Also these types of shootouts aren't to compare one antenna type to another but one hams signal to another. Therefore vehicles shold vary as well as mounting styles because they all influence one's signal. The part I thought was significent was how close all the better antennas were. I just reread the third paragraph and must admit that the author did say the purpose was to comepare antennas which would tend to cloud the issue. Be that as it may do you see anything in the results that surprises you? I mean Big coil up high and large capicity hat properly placed wins. Sounds good to me. Next a screwdriver mounted high on a spare tire holder (in the clear comes in second). Forth and fifth are two large coils with poorly positioned hats. However both of these antennas are mounted high and in the clear. If you would have looked at these 6 instalations pictured couldn't you have just about placed thier order of finish? What would be interestin is to have cut the whip off of 4 and 5 above the hat and seen what differance if any resulted. Garry(WB0NNO) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!atha!rwa From: rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: 17 Aug 1995 19:24:12 GMT Organization: Athabasca University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <41050s$jj0@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> References: <40rpa1$8f4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <40tbhl$2cs@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: aupair.cs.athabascau.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #10 (NOV) n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) writes: >A 160 meter horizontal loop on 40m is not a cloud warmer. Computer >generated patterns as well as experience shows that it has a low >angle on 40 and above. I think it is around 25 degrees or lower. >The higher the frequency, the lower the angle of the biggest lobe. That would be very strongly dependant on the height of the loop and the local soil conductivity. You don't mention a value for either, (nor do you say whether your numerical model understands imperfect ground, but it probably does.) The point I'm trying to make is that anecdotes without numbers are just stories. Call me a soulless number addict :). I'm not disputing your observations, just trying to pin down what was being observed. regards, Ross -- Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- rwa@cs.athabascau.ca From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:47 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 01:41:24 GMT Lines: 78 Message-ID: <808710923.15290@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40sudo$h5t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <808607745.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Garry Foster wrote: >Even the experts cam't agree on what constitutes "proper" >specifications, so I don't really understand all this beating up of >antenna manfactures. I don't know which experts you mean, but the mechanical and electrical characteristics of antennas can be measured and recorded. Manufacturers of well-engineered products such as Andrew, Mark, etc. publish standard and complete specifications to describe the performance of all their products. >If people don't have enough understanding of the principles to have a >very good idea of what works and what doesn't the all the real data >in the world won't mean anything to them/us. First, without specifications, manufacturers cannot be held accountable for the performance of their products. Second, to say that that proper specifications aren't useful to an uneducated purchaser assumes that we all live in a vacuum. Given Amateur publications, the Internet, and on-air QSO's, even non-technical Hams can learn the meaning and importance of this information. >And what one person considers worthless is an inportant issus to >another. That's why legitimate manufacturers produce differnt versions of their products. Non-technical customers consult engineers and the product is selected that best meets the client's needs. BTW, the fact that many Hams aren't engineers (myself included) is no excuse for any of this. QST is supposed to be one of our sources of legitimate information, not a repository for technical voo-doo or a safe haven for shoddy products. If a product is poorly made or a poor performer because it's inexpensive, that's OK. What isn't OK is for the magazine and the manufacturers to assume a posture that prevents us from knowing that. >I think A/B tests are about the best type of testing there is and >this is basically what the test in QST was. Non-amateur manufacturers and their clients disagree with you. They know that A/B testing of antennas is wasted effort because objective single-item testing provides objective performance specifications that can be objectively compared on paper. >Also much (if not most ) of the 75 meter work is on ground wave so >the 2000 ft path seems reasonable. (I would have perfered a longer >path over typical terrian:however I don't think many could agree on >typical.) Also these types of shootouts aren't to compare one antenna >type to another but one hams signal to another. Therefore vehicles >shold vary as well as mounting styles because they all influence >one's signal. The problem with this is that the test results can't possibly tell you to what extent any one of those factors actually does affect the signal. The entire exercise is meaningless to an extreme degree. >The part I thought was significent was how close all the better >antennas were. That could mean that those products are uniformly good, or that one or two inefficient antennas had better ground planes, or any number of other things. It is all useless information except to those who want to believe it. Those folks will be saved the anguish of trying to make an informed decision. >I just reread the third paragraph and must admit that the author did >say the purpose was to compare antennas which would tend to cloud >the issue. Perhaps he felt the article had to feign technical merit in order to be published. :) 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:48 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.wimsey.com!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!newshost.marcam.com!usc!news.cerf.net!ent-img.com!wb6hqk!bart From: bart@wb6hqk.ampr.org (Bart Rowlett) Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Organization: wb6hqk Message-ID: References: <40sudo$h5t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <808603067.23687@pinetree.microserve.com> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 03:09:48 GMT Lines: 59 In article <808603067.23687@pinetree.microserve.com>, WB3U wrote: > n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: > >>Check out the article in the new QST, Sept 95, where several mobile >>antennas were compared. I'de like your opinion on this one. >> >>It was a contest for the strongest 75 meter mobile signal. The >>benchmark was a Hamstick. The winner was more than 10db stronger. >>Measurements took place at a distance of 2000ft. What does this >>prove? 10db seems like too much to me. It's not too much. You can predict almost exactly 10 dB difference in efficiency just by comparing easily measurable VSWR vs frequency characteristics of the various antennas. The measurements are also in good agreement, usually within a dB, with classical analysis techniques. >Could it just be the radiation >>angles beign slightly different. Also, different vehicles were used. The stated purpose of the shootout was to objectively compare the performance of various mobile antenna installations. The vehicle, antenna placement and matching arrangements can have a considerable effect on performance as was verified by further test measurements. All of the antennas tested were vertically polarized and very short compared to the minimum self resonant length of a quarter wavelength. The sense antenna was out well out of the near field but was designed to be sensitive only to the horizontal component of the radiated magnetic field to insure absoultly minimum interference from neighboring objects. The shootout results correlate very well with A/B comparisons performed between DX stations (Japan primarily) and some of the exact mobiles measured. >The problems illustrated by these tests are twofold: > >First, the need to even conduct the tests merely emphasizes the >manufacturers' avoidance of product performance issues. This is >further evidenced by their continued publication of specifications >that are neither meaningful nor sufficient to allow purchasers to >objectively evaluate product performance. Yes, exactly the reason for the shootout! >Second, the authors have done a not insignificant disservice to >the Amateur community by publishing such an article. Even if it is >assumed that flawed results are harmless (they're not), the very >existence of the tests reinforces the concept that for some reason, a >lack of objective testing is not only acceptable, but normal and >routine. This validates the manufacturers' failure to provide useful >specifications to which they can be held accountable and provides >nothing less than a further continuance of the problem. I hope it makes a difference. bart wb6hqk bart@wb6hqk.ampr.org From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:49 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: EXPENSIVE VERTICAL BUNK Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 06:01:16 GMT Lines: 19 Message-ID: <808726514.18690@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40sudo$h5t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <808603067.23687@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 bart@wb6hqk.ampr.org (Bart Rowlett) wrote: >WB3U wrote: >>This validates the manufacturers' failure to provide useful >>specifications to which they can be held accountable and provides >>nothing less than a further continuance of the problem. >I hope it makes a difference. Bart, you may have brought up a very good point with this comment. Maybe, just maybe, if subjective tests like this one put the heat on the wrong manufacturers, they'll start publishing specs to backup the quality of their products. :) 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 01:57:03 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <3vh6rr$56l@chnews.ch.intel.com> <40oam2$suo@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: writes: >Hi Armond, a "dipole" is a generic term defined as "a radio antenna >consisting of two horizontal rods in line with each other with their ends One, di means TWO. You have received a quote, not from either of us but from a serious book. If people "generic" term use is wrong, that does not make it correct. You can not find a serious book where dipole is used for anything but the everyday normal 1/2 wave antenna. Your antenna is a multi- pled antenna which can not be a "di" pole. No way. Also, how can you justify those gain figures for nothing more than 2 5/8 wave antennas. One is a smidge over a dipole and the other is 3dB over that?????Where all those other numbers coming from??????? From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:51 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 17 Aug 1995 00:11:27 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 32 Distribution: world Message-ID: <40u1ff$6m7@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <40oam2$suo@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , wrote: > writes: >>a "dipole" is a generic term defined (quoting the dictionary) as >>"a radio antenna consisting of two horizontal rods in line with each >>other with their ends slightly separated". >You can not find a serious book where dipole is used for >anything but the everyday normal 1/2 wave antenna. We are probably at the crux of the problem. If you don't believe Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary is a "serious" book, we do not share a common language. Do you believe "The ARRL Antenna Book" is not a "serious" book? Take a look at "dipole" in the index. There are 24 sub-topics under "dipole". One of those sub-topics is "Half wavelength". Others are "Cage", "Fan", "Folded", "Short", and "Trap", all adjectives describing different types of "dipoles". A "dipole" is an antenna with two physical poles. (Butchering the English language is a pet peeve of mine.) >Also, how can you justify >those gain figures for nothing more than 2 5/8 wave antennas. One is a >smidge over a dipole and the other is 3dB over that?????Where all those >other numbers coming from??????? Directly from ELNEC modeled at 30 ft over *real ground* so I guess the question needs to be directed to W7EL. A half-wave dipole over *real ground* has about 6dbi gain. a 10/8 dipole should be about 3db better. ELNEC says that a 20m 10/8 dipole has an 8dbi clover-leaf pattern on 17m over *real ground*. Do you disagree with ELNEC? If so, that's about the only new thing in this thread. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:52 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!news.psc.edu!hudson.lm.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hplextra!hplb!hpwin055.uksr!hpqmoea!dstock From: dstock@hpqmdla.sqf.hp.com (David Stockton) Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Sender: news@hpqmoea.sqf.hp.com (SQF News Admin) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:49:33 GMT References: Nntp-Posting-Host: hpqmocc.sqf.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard LTD, South Queensferry, Scotland X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8] Lines: 11 armond@delphi.com wrote: : You can not find a serious book where dipole is used for : anything but the everyday normal 1/2 wave antenna. I prefer funny books. David, GM4ZNX From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!news1.halcyon.com!coho!ki7zd From: ki7zd@coho.halcyon.com (Randy Seacat) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. Date: 16 Aug 1995 07:28:25 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <40s6mp$p0f@news1.halcyon.com> References: <40macm$nrn@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coho.halcyon.com n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) writes: >Donald W. Culpepper (audi4don@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: If anyone has experience using a G5RV type dipole for SWL DX for the >: 16m - 49m bands I'd appreciate your info. It almost seems too simple a >: design to be a multiband. But that's what Joseph Carr, MSEE, calls it. >The whole G5RV thing is bunk. For SWL's any length dipole longer than >about 50ft will give great results. Feed it with 300 ohm twin lead and >use a cheapo tuner to peak it up. >-- > Steve >n4lq@iglou.com > > It sure is a shame to have this sort of BUNK info being said. THe G5RV is a great performer. And its a shame that a 1x2 call would claim different. I use a G5RV with 30 watts, and I have worked 4 conts., and 96 countries with it. I get 20 over s9 sig reports on 80 meters on any night. And get accused of lieing about my power output. I have not found a better piece of wire to date. And, it cost a whole $4.00 to build it. (Not counting feedline) I had a guy tell me before I put it up, not to. He claimed it was a terrible ant. That it wouldnt work. Well, hate to say it, but it does. When I talked to him with it, he said "I see you decided to use something besides" sorry, but its a g5rv design, and for multiband oper. It works well. Not to discount that a 50 foot wire with a tuner wouldnt work either, but Im sure that a g5rv with a tuner will work much better. My 2 cents. Real radios glow in the dark! ki7zd@halcyon.com -- /-/-/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Amateur Radio Station Inet: ki7zd@halcyon.com | KI7ZD | WWA CN87 73's _._ .. __... __.. _.. "If RST > 519, Reduce Power!" From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 08:13:09 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: <808561614.15483@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40macm$nrn@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <40s6mp$p0f@news1.halcyon.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 In article <40s6mp$p0f@news1.halcyon.com>, ki7zd@coho.halcyon.com (Randy Seacat) wrote: >n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) writes: > >>The whole G5RV thing is bunk. For SWL's any length dipole longer >>than about 50ft will give great results. Feed it with 300 ohm twin >>lead and use a cheapo tuner to peak it up. >It sure is a shame to have this sort of BUNK info being said. THe >G5RV is a great performer. Yes, the G5RV design can work very well, but so will Steve's >50 foot dipole. Given that he included an impedance matching network (tuner) in the proposed configuration and that the antenna will be used for SWL only, there should be very little difference in performance between the two types of antennas. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!van-bc!news.wimsey.com!sanjuan.amtsgi.bc.ca!salmon!clinton.peebles From: clinton.peebles@saloon.bcbbs.net (Clinton Peebles) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: G5RV antenna inquiry. Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 12:32:00 GMT Message-ID: <9508160647134848@saloon.bcbbs.net> Organization: Salmon Siding Saloon BBS 604-357-9942 Distribution: world References: <40macm$nrn@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Lines: 10 A>If anyone has experience using a G5RV type dipole for SWL DX for the A>16m - 49m bands I'd appreciate your info. It almost seems too simple a A>design to be a multiband. But that's what Joseph Carr, MSEE, calls it. G5RV is a good antenna. I had one that was 102' long, there are some half that size and others double that size, and it worked great from 10-80meters. --- þ QMPro 1.53 þ Salmon Siding Saloon - Salmo B.C. (604) 357-9942 From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!ip240.phx.primenet.com!markem From: markem@primenet.com (Mark Monninger) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:48:58 MST Organization: Primenet Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <40macm$nrn@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <40s6mp$p0f@news1.halcyon.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip240.phx.primenet.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4] In article <40s6mp$p0f@news1.halcyon.com> ki7zd@coho.halcyon.com (Randy Seacat) writes: > ... >Not to discount that a 50 foot wire with a tuner wouldnt work either, but >Im sure that a g5rv with a tuner will work much better. > If you're using a tuner, it isn't a real G5RV. I'd advise you to read Maxwell's book 'Reflections' about it (there's a whole chapter on it) and also some of G5RV's own writings on the antenna. Most of the so-called "G5RV's" aren't. They can and do work but they're not the mystical, magical antenna that lots of folks seem to think they are. Now, let's talk about 2M J-poles... 73... Mark AA7TA From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:56 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: G5RV Dimensions Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 07:11:29 GMT Lines: 27 Message-ID: <808644319.1675@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40ptk9$p8p@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 ultravis@ix.netcom.com (Guy Scott ) wrote: > Hello everybody, I'm looking for dimensions and materials required >to build a g5rv ant. The Radio Works in Portsmouth, VA sells kits as well as individual components and materials. Their number is (804) 484-0140. RW sells a "G5RV Plus" for $55 in their standard catalog. It covers 80 - 10 meters plus WARC. Each leg of the dipole is shown to be 51' long and the dipole is fed with 31' of ladder line. At the source end of the ladder line a current balun is used, which converts the system to coaxial feed. RW also sells "Carolina Windoms" as well as a number of other interesting designs. Incidentally, in addition to their standard catalog, RW publishes a $5 "Reference Catalog". This item contains descriptive information regarding products and techniques not found in their standard catalog. I don't agree with everything they have to say on antennas and ground theory, but it's an interesting piece just the same. :) 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!itnews.sc.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: G5RV Dimensions Date: 18 Aug 1995 16:10:34 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <412e1q$lk6@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <40ptk9$p8p@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <40ptk9$p8p@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, Guy Scott wrote: > Hello everybody, I'm looking for dimensions and materials required to >build a g5rv ant. A description here or an ftp site would be just fine. Hi Henry, G5RV's latest recommendation is to forget the coax and bring the ladder-line all the way to the shack. 102 ft center-fed dipole is most popular. I personally use an 88 ft center-fed dipole because it gives me world-wide coverage on 20m and 17m with a two-lobed broadside pattern on 20m and a cloverleaf pattern on 17m. I suggest you study the radiation patterns before you erect the antenna. Otherwise, you may be radiating primarily over water and uninhabited land areas like the South Pole. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: G5RV Dimensions Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 16:33:12 GMT Lines: 14 Message-ID: <808764433.24853@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40ptk9$p8p@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <412e1q$lk6@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 cmoore@sedona.intel.com wrote: >I suggest you study the radiation patterns before you erect the >antenna. Otherwise, you may be radiating primarily over water and >uninhabited land areas like the South Pole. Cecil, how is the radiation pattern of a non-resonant antenna determined? I've never seen this published, but there's obviously a way to do it. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: michewh@pb.COM (William Michels) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: G5RV references? Date: 16 Aug 95 16:44:24 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 42 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu Hi All, I am looking for copies of some of the papers regarding Louis Varney's G5RV antenna and similar designs. Specifically, the references are: 1) Varney, L., "ATU or astu?" Radio Communication, August, 1983. 2) Varney, L. "HF Antennas in Theory and Practice - A Philosophical Approach," Radio Communication, Sept. 1981. 3) B. Austin, "Computer-Aided Design of Multi-band Dipole Based on the G5RV Principle," Radio Communication, August, 1985 4) P. Hawker, "More on the G5RV/ZS6BKW Antennas," Technical Topics, Radio Communication, Jan, Feb & Apr 1993. 5) Varney, L., "An Effective Multi-Band Aerial of Simple Construction," RSGB Bulletin, July 1958. A formal interlibrary loan request for this came back negative. (There were only a couple of libraries in the country that had RSGB Bulletin archives going back as far as 1958 and neither one could fill the request). Old serials seem to be the first thing a library throws out when it needs to free up some space. Note that Radio Communication is the current name of the RSGB Bulletin; these are publications of the Radio Society of Great Britain. In the hope that some dedicated ham antenna people have saved old issues of the above, I am posting this request here. I would like to buy the specific issues mentioned or pay reasonable copying costs, whichever is best for you. Best Regards, Bill Michels michewh@pb.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!darwin.sura.net!mother.usf.edu!frog!sffuom From: sffuom@frog.thpl.lib.fl.us (Arjay Morgan) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 16 Aug 1995 06:23:09 GMT Organization: University of South Florida Lines: 17 Message-ID: <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: frog.thpl.lib.fl.us X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] vspscpub@xs4all.nl wrote: : Hello out there! : As I am planning to buy a GAP TITAN Vertical, I would like to know : something more about its qualities from HAMS who already work with it. : Both positive and negative reactions.... : Greetings, : 73 DE PAOVNL : Hans :I've never found a ham in Tampa,FL who could get a gap to work :Arjay, N3LKZ From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:45:59 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!iglou.iglou.com!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: GAP Verticals X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:41:21 GMT Lines: 16 : :I've never found a ham in Tampa,FL who could get a gap to work : :Arjay, N3LKZ Boy, Someone needs to Flame those Gaps. If they are really this bad, one of our fine Amateur Radio Publications needs to make us aware of it. I read the review in QST some time ago but they go soft on stuff like this. N4lq -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!NewsWatcher!user From: limtiaco@uwashington.edu (Matso Limtiaco) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 16 Aug 1995 18:25:01 GMT Organization: UW Athletic Bands Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.95.77.80 In article , n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: > : :I've never found a ham in Tampa,FL who could get a gap to work > : :Arjay, N3LKZ > > Boy, Someone needs to Flame those GapsŠ > > N4lq > -- > Steve > n4lq@iglou.com > > I agree. I saw a couple of reviews of the GAP in 73 and CQ (I think...might have been QST) from a few years ago and they seemed to be pretty positive. Also, around two months ago, someone came on this newsgroup and asked about the GAP. I remember about six or seven replies saying "You'll never need another antenna" and only one who said it was a waste of $$. Where were all the people who've had no luck with the GAP back then? 73s Matso Limtiaco N7DUB PS. Yes, I bought one. Either conditions on 40 and 30 have really been that bad, or this antenna just plain doesn't work real well. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:01 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!iglou!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: GAP Verticals X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:40:25 GMT Lines: 39 Matso Limtiaco (limtiaco@uwashington.edu) wrote: : In article , n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: : > : :I've never found a ham in Tampa,FL who could get a gap to work : > : :Arjay, N3LKZ : > : > Boy, Someone needs to Flame those GapsŠ : > : > N4lq : > -- : > Steve : > n4lq@iglou.com : > : > : I agree. I saw a couple of reviews of the GAP in 73 and CQ (I : think...might have been QST) from a few years ago and they seemed to be : pretty positive. Also, around two months ago, someone came on this : newsgroup and asked about the GAP. I remember about six or seven replies : saying "You'll never need another antenna" and only one who said it was a : waste of $$. Where were all the people who've had no luck with the GAP : back then? : 73s : Matso Limtiaco N7DUB : PS. Yes, I bought one. Either conditions on 40 and 30 have really been : that bad, or this antenna just plain doesn't work real well. Well, when you look at the Challanger, those (radial) wires are really part of the lower half of the radiator and they lay on the ground. Am I correct? Is this weird or what? In other words, if this is a center fed, elevated feed antenna, then the lower half consists of some wire which lays on the ground. I think the whole deal here is just a way to get a low swr with little consideration given to radiation efficiency. -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 21:12:40 GMT Lines: 14 Message-ID: <808608388.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: >Well, when you look at the Challanger, those (radial) wires are >really part of the lower half of the radiator and they lay on the >ground. Am I correct? Is this weird or what? In other words, if this >is a center fed, elevated feed antenna, then the lower half consists >of some wire which lays on the ground. I think the whole deal here is >just a way to get a low swr with little consideration given to >radiation efficiency. Everyone is able to visually distinguish a dummy load from a radiating element. It's not so easy though when a manufacturer combines the two and calls it an antenna. :) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: horrock@aol.com (Horrock) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 16 Aug 1995 18:46:32 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 25 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <40tsg8$r2b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: horrock@aol.com (Horrock) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >Boy, Someone needs to Flame those Gaps. If they are really this bad, >one of our fine Amateur Radio Publications needs to make us aware of >it. I read the review in QST some time ago but they go soft on stuff >like this. N4lq > The problem is that I like my GAP, and I would buy one again. Of course I wish I had a sixty foot tower and multiband antenna for 40-6meters on it. Not to mention the fifty foot phone poles for all the wire antennas I wish I had. But I don't expect the GAP to work as well as my dream antenna system does (in my mind). I have had other verticals, Cushcraft aand Hustler, they both worked good - but required a little more work in the adjustments department. The WORST vertical I ever had was a BUTTERNUT. Yet there are people who like their Butternut. I don't know the conditions other people used the GAP under (poor soil, tight space, bad location, incorrect construction, stupidity) but a few years back a DX station in Antarctic was using the big GAP and I worked him from Wisconsin. They can't be that bad! In any case I still want my dream antenna field! From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:04 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!iglou!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: GAP Verticals X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40tsg8$r2b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 03:48:22 GMT Lines: 32 : The problem is that I like my GAP, and I would buy one again. : Of course I wish I had a sixty foot tower and multiband antenna : for 40-6meters on it. Not to mention the fifty foot phone poles : for all the wire antennas I wish I had. But I don't expect the GAP : to work as well as my dream antenna system does (in my mind). : I have had other verticals, Cushcraft aand Hustler, they both worked : good - but required a little more work in the adjustments department. : The WORST vertical I ever had was a BUTTERNUT. Yet there are : people who like their Butternut. : I don't know the conditions other people used the GAP under : (poor soil, tight space, bad location, incorrect construction, stupidity) : but a few years back a DX station in Antarctic was using the big GAP : and I worked him from Wisconsin. They can't be that bad! : In any case I still want my dream antenna field! OOOOOH!!! This is getting too technical for me. The world has been worked on Gotham verticals, bed springs and barbed wire. In 1965 you could work anywhere in the world on 20 meters with a coat hanger too. I saw it done. N4LQ -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:05 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!voder!nsc!news From: "Al Koblinski (W7XA)" Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com Sender: news@nsc.nsc.com (netnews maintenance) Nntp-Posting-Host: akoblinski.nsc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> <808608388.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 19:51:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:808608388.24646@pinetree.microserve.com Lines: 11 For what it's worth, I've had a Gap DX-IV for two years and found it to be an excellent performer on 40 and 80 for working DX both long and short path from the west coast. It also hears well on 160 although hard to judge results since I don't use an amp there. On 20 meters it seems pretty poor compared with a three element quad, about 10 to 20 db down but maybe that is a function of the radiation angle differences. In general, Im very pleased with the results on this particular model. It is definitely better than the 45' base loaded vertical previously in use. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: horrock@aol.com (Horrock) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 17 Aug 1995 18:16:48 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 23 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <410f4g$ld4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: horrock@aol.com (Horrock) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com > >OOOOOH!!! This is getting too technical for me. The world has been worked >on Gotham verticals, bed springs and barbed wire. In 1965 you could >work anywhere in the world on 20 meters with a coat hanger too. I saw >it done. > >N4LQ > Steve, maybe you have a point here. Lets examine it. Since we are in a low solar activity period right now and someone buys a $300 ground mounted antenna, wishing he had a 60' tower with a tri-bander, and after putting up is ground mounted antenna he isn't able to work the world ---- WELL may be he would be disappointed and blame the antenna. I'm sure that was your point - wasn't it? Because as you pointed out, when conditions are very good you can work the world on a coat hanger. So how good/bad is any antenna really? You can't trust performance because of conditions - as you have pointed out. This leaves us with the non-science appoarch: Do you feel good about your GAP or not? The most interesting thing about this thread is that it bring the N4LQ's out in the open. I enjoy your input speak to us some more. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:06 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: GAP Verticals X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> <808608388.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:07:47 GMT Lines: 14 Lets see. Gap is 10 to 20db down on 20 meters from an antenna that should have a higher radiation angle and "I'm pleased"???? And it's better than a 45ft vertical???? Wonder how many db down it was??? Hears well on 160 but cant tell because no amp???? Beam me up Scotty! OH, Now we have a New New New vertical. The Hygain Vertical WINDOM. OOOOOH check this out in the new QST. What next? How about a vertical G5RV? I can see the add now. COVERS ALL BANDS WITH A TUNER. SUPER DX .. I WORKED ZL WITH ONLY 2 picowatts. YOU CAN TOO!! -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!squarethru.mti.sgi.com!rfrench From: rfrench@squarethru.mti.sgi.com (Robert French) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 18 Aug 1995 00:40:34 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <410ni2$iuo@fido.asd.sgi.com> References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> <808608388.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> Reply-To: rfrench@mti.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Host: squarethru.mti.sgi.com Well, I just received my GAP Titan the other day. I hope to be able to put it up this weekend. I live in an area with no snow, little wind, and occasional earthquakes :-) so I don't really care all that much about it needing to support a 100MPH windload and 2 tons of ice. The comparison antennas (which I'll leave up for a while) are 20m and 40m inverted vee dipoles up a whopping 15'. (They used to be up 25' but a squirrel ate thru my hoist rope and I haven't fixed it) So if my GAP works better than a dipole up 15', I will be happy. Also, I'm running only 100w. My performance for the past year has been that I could very occasionally work someone on the east coast SSB, and have worked 2 DX stations CW. (This as compared to a local contest station I sometimes use where I've worked 47 states and 52 countries in the same time frame) I'll post a review once I get a chance to compare. Yours for realism in antenna choice, Rob From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.eng.convex.com!news.netins.net!usenet From: crcarlson@netins.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Gap verticals Date: 18 Aug 1995 03:03:18 GMT Organization: INS Information Services, Des Moines, IA USA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <00995075.B96F5E5F@netins.net> Reply-To: crcarlson@netins.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ins.netins.net Well.....I have owned my Gap DX-VIII for about three years now. My previous antennas were ground mounted verticals of the 14AVQ variety with only average ground. I used these kind of antennas for many years, dating back to the purchase of a New Hallicrafters FPM- 300 Mk II. I can recall using a 14 AVQ on forty phone and asking for a signal report from my (then) home in Kansas City. A guy in Dallas gave me "20 over". This on a vertical with about 4 poorly attached radials. O.K. so I didn't know much about verticals then..... Mechanically my GAP has held up to northern Iowa winter well. There are no particalar adjustments to make (i.e. no rotor to turn, etc) and it "gets out" well. But then recall what I did with an antenna that was little more than one of Kurt N Sterba's grocery carts. I have worked quite a lot of DX with mine, back when you could get 15 meters, with QRP. And I only have room, money and a tolerance for one antenna so I VERY happy with mine. On 80 its not much, but 40 and 20 works pretty good. Remember this is anecdotal. There was recently a good article in one of the ham magazines that explained the operation of this kind of antenna. But when I move to the farm in a few weeks Its no longer gonna be my only antenna and I am going to put up a bunch of wire!!!! Assuming you had a lot of room you could do better (ie Rhombics, etc) with about $50 worth of wire. ...Just my $.02 worth. 73 WB0FDJ From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:09 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: GAP Verticals X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <410f4g$ld4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 02:57:44 GMT Lines: 10 When one pays $300 for an antenna, he may as well feel good. I have spoken. N4LQ -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Gap verticals Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 16:39:56 GMT Lines: 12 Message-ID: <808764837.24853@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <00995075.B96F5E5F@netins.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 crcarlson@netins.net wrote: >Assuming you had a lot of room you could do better (ie Rhombics, etc) >with about $50 worth of wire. ...Just my $.02 worth. Actually, good quality antenna wire has gotten pretty expensive. $50.00 probably won't buy enough for a decent rhombic. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Grounding from the 2nd floor Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 03:10:49 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <808543472.11955@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40r947$qnc@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Jim_pestell@mindlink.bc.ca (jim pestell) wrote: >ssgreen@aerospace.aero.org (Steve Greenberg) wrote: > You and I are in the same boat, and I have been playing wth ground >systems for years, there is only one ground that works, use a quarter >wave length of wire for each band you work , just make sure no one can touch the ends of the wire while you are on the air! What types of antennas are you gentlemen using? If the antenna system is balanced, you shouldn't need an RF ground at the rig. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.isi.edu!news.aero.org!news2.aero.org!greenberg-t.aero.org!user From: ssgreen@aerospace.aero.org (Steve Greenberg) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Grounding from the 2nd floor Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: 16 Aug 1995 19:57:14 GMT Organization: Aerospace Corp Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <40r947$qnc@fountain.mindlink.net> <808543472.11955@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: greenberg-t.aero.org Yes, I have heard of the use of 1/4 wave radials for each band, attached to the ground lug of rig or tuner. I am tempted to try. I am using a full size G5RV to a tuner. Maybe I should loose the G5RV/tuner, and go to a balanced system such as a beam or vertical. Not sure. Any other comments would be appreciated. tnx & 73s Steve, WA6TAF From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Grounding from the 2nd floor Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 06:52:40 GMT Lines: 19 Message-ID: <808643190.1675@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40r947$qnc@fountain.mindlink.net> <808543472.11955@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 ssgreen@aerospace.aero.org (Steve Greenberg) wrote: >I am using a full size G5RV to a tuner. > >Maybe I should loose the G5RV/tuner, and go to a balanced system such >as a beam or vertical. Not sure. The G5RV should not cause feedline radiation. Check the usual things first. The ladder line should travel away from the antenna at right angles, and it should not be routed near other objects, especially if they're conductive. Out of curiosity, did you purchase the antenna from a commercial vendor, or is it homebrew? Also, how much power do you use? 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:12 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!a2i!olivea!express.ior.com!news From: Joe Pfeuffer Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Grounding from the 2nd floor Date: 17 Aug 1995 02:10:54 GMT Organization: Internet On-Ramp, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <40u8fe$k3c@express.ior.com> References: <40r947$qnc@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs4-03.ior.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) In the past I have used (sucsessfully) a coaxial groud comprised of RG-8 with center conductor (not shield) tied to ground and the transmitter. At each end the braid is connected to the center conductor via a .01ufd 5000V cap. The theory is - the braid prevents RF reaching the center conductor and the cap(s) provide a path for RF on the braid. This was used to instal a (semi-serious) contest station on the 8th floor of a 14 story buliding and seemed to work fine (no RF bite and only unbalanced antennas). I have subsequently used this type of ground (for smuch shorter runs) and never experienced any problems. I hope this may help your situation 73 Joe - KW1K From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.aero.org!news2.aero.org!greenberg-t.aero.org!user From: ssgreen@aerospace.aero.org (Steve Greenberg) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Grounding from the 2nd floor Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: 17 Aug 1995 18:20:13 GMT Organization: Aerospace Corp Lines: 39 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <40r947$qnc@fountain.mindlink.net> <808543472.11955@pinetree.microserve.com> <808643190.1675@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: greenberg-t.aero.org In article <808643190.1675@pinetree.microserve.com>, jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > > ssgreen@aerospace.aero.org (Steve Greenberg) wrote: > > >I am using a full size G5RV to a tuner. > > > >Maybe I should loose the G5RV/tuner, and go to a balanced system such > >as a beam or vertical. Not sure. > > The G5RV should not cause feedline radiation. Check the usual things > first. The ladder line should travel away from the antenna at right > angles, and it should not be routed near other objects, especially if > they're conductive. > > Out of curiosity, did you purchase the antenna from a commercial > vendor, or is it homebrew? Also, how much power do you use? > > 73, > > Jack WB3U HI Jack The G5RV is homebrew, the power level is 100 watts, & the ladder line is running down a center pole, then down the side of the house to the feedline at ground level. The feedline then runs back up the same side of the house and over the roof to the shack on the opposite side of the house. Do you think I should reposition the ladder line, if so, then it will be running down the pole, and go horizontal over the roof to the feedline and to the shack. But I thought the intention of the ladder line was to be vertical. Oh well, everything is a compromise. Tnx for the info & 73s Steve. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!gwen.pcug.co.uk!kate.ibmpcug.co.uk!gbscomms!gordy Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <925@gbscomms.win-uk.net> References: <40r947$qnc@fountain.mindlink.net> <808543472.11955@pinetree.microserve.com> <808643190.1675@pinetree.microserve.com>, Steve Greenberg (ssgreen@aerospace.aero.org) writes: >Do you think I should reposition the ladder line, if so, then it will be >running down the pole, and go horizontal over the roof to the feedline and >to the shack. But I thought the intention of the ladder line was to be >vertical. yes, it should be as vertical as possible, and make sure that you're not using a metal/conductive pole. If so, try and get athe biggest possible stand-off between the mast and line, at least 18 inches to 2 feet. However, you may find (if you have a balanced tuner or 4-6:1 balun) that if the twin lead will reach the shack, just cut the coax connector off the end, plug the twin lead in the back of the tuner and away you go! Problem solved Gordy -- Caution: Keys now changed at random security intervals. Contact for current armoured transport file. "You are reminded that this is an insecure circuit. The use of names, ranks and classified information is forbidden." From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.wimsey.com!io.org!interlog.com!news1.fonorola.net!kowloon.terraport.net!archangel.terraport.net!mercury115 From: ve3trj@terraport.net (Bryan Weaver) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Help with a Ringo Ranger Date: 18 Aug 1995 02:13:56 GMT Organization: TerraPort Online Inc. (416) 492-3050, Your Gateway to the Internet Lines: 11 Message-ID: <410t14$nb5@archangel.terraport.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mercury115.terraport.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3 Wonder if anyone can give me the lengths of the various parts of a Ringo Ranger. It is a 2 meter version. I have one which has been dismantled for re-furbishing but don't have any documentation. Specifically, what is the distance from the bottom insulator to the hairpin, and from the hairpin to the top. Also the matching stub at the feed point. Any help would be appreciated. Please reply here or email me at: ve3trj@terraport.net tnx & 73 de Bryan, VE3TRJ From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!ulowell.uml.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!news1.oakland.edu!newshub.gmr.com!rcsuna.gmr.com!news From: vbreault@rinhp750.gmr.com (Val Breault) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Hustler shock mount (was Re: CCR restrictions) Date: 17 Aug 1995 13:26:56 GMT Organization: General Motors R&D Center Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <40su44$mjp@moose.gdss.grumman.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rinhp750.gmr.com In-reply-to: higniro@gdss.grumman.com's message of 16 Aug 1995 14:08:04 GMT Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:85089 rec.radio.amateur.policy:29029 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13024 > > I think it is high time that we reconsider the amount > > of power these little tyrants sitting on HOA boards give themselves! > >Steve KA6S Steve, I kindly disagree. People that live in those communities willfully and sometimes gladly give those HOA boards the power to control the community. The boards have no power, no influence, no say in the lives of people that have not given them that power. Far too often in far too many ways the American people are willing, nay eager to sign away their freedoms. They believe that someone else can protect them better than they can protect themselves. The HOA board, like the congress, has only as much power as the people give them. I personally find that to be an unacceptable situation. Every opportunity I have I vote with my feet, my money, and my ballot to change it. ObRadio: I've been having a ball running HF-mobile using a Hustler system mounted on the side of my van. I've set it up so that the hinge in the fold over mast is about at the drip rail level. I can easily reach it to set it up or bring it down and I can anchor the loose end to the roof using a magnet. I've installed a stand off support just below the hinge to take the lateral load from this rather long, stiff and heavy antenna. This is all well and good but it's a real pain to stop at the end of my tree lined street to erect or take down the antenna every time I use it. I'd really REALLY like to be able to put a shock spring just above or just below the hinge. That way I'd be able to leave the antenna up when driving down tree lined streets or campgrounds. Has anyone done this? Does anyone know someone that does it? I'll be away for a couple days longer than our local 'expire' time so E-mail responses would be appreciated. -- Val Breault vbreault@rinhp750.gmr.com \ /| GM R&D Center - instrumentation dept. \ / | My opinions are not necessarily those \ /__| ars N8OEF of GM R&D or of the GM Corporation. \/ |___ Pres GM ARC From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!qnet.com!usenet From: spacone@qnet.com (chris spacone) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: INMARSAT Terminals Date: 17 Aug 1995 01:35:01 GMT Organization: Quantum Networking Solutions, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <40u6c6$j8j@mandolin.qnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup18.av.ca.qnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.11 Does anybody out there have information regarding INMARSAT terminals? I could use some basic source material, perhaps an overview of the system and maybe some prices for entry level stuff. I have a friend that owns a rather *large* motor/sailer and is interested in upgrading his communications capability. If I have posted in an inappropriate newsgroup, please forgive me. flames > dev/nul 73, Chris, KD6OUB From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:17 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news1.digital.com!decwrl!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cville-srv.wam.umd.edu!ham From: ham@wam.umd.edu (Scott Richard Rosenfeld) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Larsen kulduckie good choice Date: 17 Aug 1995 21:15:28 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Lines: 12 Message-ID: <410bhg$64r@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rac8.wam.umd.edu A friend of mine and I were at Dayton. His double-spring BNC bit the dust, and it was attached to a 1.5 year old Kulduckie. Larsen wasn't there due to some screw-up, but a call to their 800-line netted him some valuable info: the name of a Larsen dealer who was present and would exchange free of charge. Expensive but worth the price, I guess you'd say. -- Member, Leukemia Society's "Team in Training." | Tax-deductible contributions Run/walk in Bermuda Marathon, Jan. 12-15, 1996 | accepted and welcome. Email -----------------------------------------------| or call for more info. All Scott Rosenfeld Burtonsville MD 301-549-1022 | sponsors welcomed. Thanks! From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!news.netconnect.com.au!news From: Michel van der Walle Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Lindenbladt Antenna Date: 18 Aug 1995 11:43:22 GMT Organization: Ballarat NetConnect Pty. Ltd. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <411ucq$1hj@ren.netconnect.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: moe-ppp6.moenet.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) I am currently looking for a suitable antenna to receive the APT signals from the LEO weather birds. I am currently using a turnstile with ground plane and this antenna is performing quit well. However it suffers from fading during some passes. Not sure why. Somewhere in my endevours to find the ultimate "non tracking" antenna I came across the name "Lindenbladt" I do remember that the article stated that this antenna was used in Australia on the Woomera Rocket range in the late 50's early 60's to track and receive telemetry sigs from experimental rockets. According to the article this sky hook was used because of it's superior circular response to signals from both, overhead and on the horizon signal sources. It also stated that it had some gain over a turnstile. The article did not go into any theory or construction details. Hence this message. Has anybody out there in Amateur Land ever heard of this antenna and if so have any construction details. I would be very interested and gratefull for any details. Warmest Regards from "Down Under" Michel van der Walle VK3KVW. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: 16 Aug 1995 01:23:11 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 24 Message-ID: <40rh9v$qjn@news.azstarnet.com> References: <40pbgv$7ja@kaleka.seanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite191.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) To: dbonham@dbonham.seanet.com dbonham@dbonham.seanet.com wrote: <> I have jillions of questions - but one question is fairly urgent: I need to transmit at 220 MHz between >two fixed, line-of-sight points, but my transmitter can put out only 10 mW. I can use directional antennas >for both transmit and receive. What's the most gain I can expect to get out of an antenna, what's the >best general design, and how far can I expect to clearly transmit an FM signal that has a deviation of >only 300 Hz? The answer is... it depends. How large can the antennas be? How sensitive is your receiver? What is the data rate? What error rates can you tolerate? Is the path truly line-of-sight or are there obstructions such as trees, buildings, etc? In general, you probably should be considering Yagi antennas which can have reasonable gains of 10 to 12 dBi. You can get more but I said "reasonable". The remainder of your problem lies in the answers to the above. I'm not saying I can help if you supply the answers, I'm just good at asking questions Regards, Wes From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 03:26:27 GMT Lines: 49 Message-ID: <808544411.11955@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40pbgv$7ja@kaleka.seanet.com> <40rh9v$qjn@news.azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Wes Stewart wrote: >dbonham@dbonham.seanet.com wrote: >I have jillions of questions - but one question is fairly urgent: I >need to transmit at 220 MHz between two fixed, line-of-sight points, >but my transmitter can put out only 10 mW. I can use directional >antennas for both transmit and receive. I use an Excel spreadsheet that I wrote for path calculations. Normally, I use this for microwave work, but the free space attenuation is calculated against the frequency entered by the user, so it's adaptable to 220 MHz. Other items that need to be entered are transmitter power in watts, signal bandwidth, receive and transmit antenna gain, feedline loss, and receiver noise figure. From this, the sheet calculates the EIRP in dBmW, as well as the Carrier/Noise ratio at the receiver for distances in whatever increments are desired. Also, I have a chart that provides a graphic representation of 0.6 Fresnel Zone clearance. Like the other sheet, the frequency can be entered by the user. The other factors it needs are receive and transmit antenna heights, and the distance between the sites. From this, if calculates and plots a football-shaped image from the transmit tower to the receive antenna, and superimposes it against a plot of the earth's curvature, drawn for the distance involved. >The answer is... it depends. << snip >> >I'm not saying I can help if you supply the answers, I'm just good at >asking questions > >Regards, Wes > Same here. Actually, I have almost no experience at 220 MHz, particularly regarding readily available hardware. If someone wants to provide a starting point, I'd be glad to plug in some numbers and see what the programs spit out. For microwave work, I usually start with the Fresnel chart first. This tells me how tall the sites need to be, which in turn provides the number for transmitter feedline loss. I'm so "green" at 220 MHz though, I'm not even sure Fresnel is a significant concern. Again, I'll be glad to plug in the numbers if someone wants to give me a start in the right direction. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:21 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!kaleka.seanet.com!usenet From: dbonham@dbonham.seanet.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: 16 Aug 1995 05:38:43 GMT Organization: Seanet Online Services, Seattle WA Lines: 25 Message-ID: <40s097$p59@kaleka.seanet.com> References: <808544411.11955@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbonham.seanet.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > Wes Stewart wrote: > >dbonham@dbonham.seanet.com wrote: > > >I have jillions of questions - but one question is fairly urgent: I > >need to transmit at 220 MHz between two fixed, line-of-sight points, > >but my transmitter can put out only 10 mW. > >>>> Wes and/or Jack, As you can probably tell, I'm pretty 'green' with this RF stuff - but sounds like your spreadsheet is what I need. Are you interested in selling a copy? Here's my best shot at the numbers you need: Antenna gain of 11 at both transmit and receive. 10mW of transmitter power 1KHz bandwidth (300 Hz deviation) feedline loss of 1dB at tranmit and receive I don't know my receiver noise figure - what's reasonable for Radio Shack's best police scanner? Would a higher priced unit be significantly better? I'd like to get Carrier/Noise ratios at half-mile intervals, if possible. I'm only after some rough numbers for now - are we talking one mile, five miles, or ten? Much appreciated, Doug B. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 07:49:22 GMT Lines: 78 Message-ID: <808560186.15483@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40pbgv$7ja@kaleka.seanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Doug, Although I personally designed the spreadsheets used in this work, I am not at liberty to distribute them. Nevertheless, I will be glad to provide the results, and to assist you in this project to the extent that I am able to do so. To begin, maintenance of 0.6 Fresnel Zone clearance is not possible at this frequency without extraordinary measures. Simply put, the zone is very large and continues to intersect earth at any reasonable tower height. Therefore, I will assume that unlike microwave, such clearance is not required. Assumptions regarding the system are as follows: 1. The transmit and receive antennas will each be located at a height of 50 feet. This will provide line of sight to a distance of approximately 20 miles over 4/3 smooth earth. 2. The transmission line will be RG8/U, which incurs a loss at this frequency of approximately 4.0 dB per 100 feet. For purposes of the transmit EIRP calculation, I have assumed a total length of 50 feet, or a 2 dB loss. If the transmitter will be mounted on the tower or inside a shelter some distance from the tower base, this number may have to be adjusted. 3. I believe that a conservative noise figure of 2.0 dB can be assigned to the scanner. Assuming that you will not use a tower-mounted preamp, transmission line (downlead) loss must be added to this figure. Again, assuming 50 feet of line, the result is an equivalent noise figure of 4.0 dB. 4. Signal bandwidth is a crucial element in the carrier-to-noise calculations that follow. However, the bandwidth used by the calculations actually refers to that of the receiver, not the transmitted signal. Therefore, I have entered 20 KHz as an estimate for this figure. If you can determine the actual number, the results will be considerably more accurate. In addition to the above, I have used a figure of 11 dB gain for both the transmit and receive antennas, and 10 mW transmitter output. Line of sight assumes there are no additional losses resulting from obstructions or foliage in the path. ------------------------------------ System EIRP: 19.00 dBm / 0.0794 Watt Path Length Carrier/Noise (miles) (dB) 2.5 68.1 5.0 62.1 7.5 58.5 10.0 56.0 12.5 54.1 15.0 52.5 17.5 51.2 20.0 50.0 ------------------------ Given the numbers obtained above, there should be no problem with signal reception to the distances shown on the chart. In fact, I suspect the limiting factor to this project will be the economics of antenna height. As a final note, changes to certain items can be added or subtracted directly from the C/N ratios shown. These items are feedline loss, receiver noise figure, and transmit and receive antenna gain. This is intended to be preliminary, so let me know if you need results for a different combination of components. Regards, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 02:55:20 GMT Message-ID: <56427528-950815195520@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 64 -> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbonham.seanet.com -> X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) -> -> I'm looking for someone who knows antennas and other RF design issues -> help me with a patented -> wildlife monitoring system. The amount of available money will depen -> what happens in September -> when I show a prototype at a national conference for wildlife biologi -> Portland. -> I have jillions of questions - but one question is fairly urgent: -> to transmit at 220 MHz between -> two fixed, line-of-sight points, but my transmitter can put out only -> I can use directional antennas -> for both transmit and receive. What's the most gain I can expect to -> out of an antenna, what's the -> best general design, and how far can I expect to clearly transmit an -> signal that has a deviation of -> only 300 Hz? -> If anyone is interested in helping with this project, please let me -> Thanks, -> D.Bonham -> Well, you left out some important information about your receiver! So, I am going to assume some things based on experience. 10mw = 10dbm assume a directional antenna of 7db gain. assume misc. transmit losses of 1.5 db 10db+7db-1.5db = 15.5 db transmit signal. Assume a RSL of -70dbm for good receiver quiting and a reasonable path fade margin. Assume a receiver antenna gain of 7db Assume 1.5db losses (-70) - 7 + 1.5 = -75.5dbm rsl required at antenna. Using the formula... free-space path attenuation= 36.6 + 20 log f(mhz) + 20 log d(miles) 15.5dbm tx power + (-75.5dbmRSL) = -60db which can be tolerated. 60 = 36.6 + 20 log 220(mhz) + 20 log d(miles) 60 = 36.6 + 46.848 + 20 log d 60 = 83.448 + 20 log d -23.448 = 20 log d -1.1724 = log d .0672 = d or about 355 feet Hope this helps. Keep in mind the above is assuming alot. Your receiver quiting level would really make a big difference here. Jim Wooddell, WA6OFT jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 19:56:27 GMT Lines: 10 Message-ID: <808603831.23754@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <56427528-950815195520@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) wrote: > or about 355 feet Well, you sure got a different result than I did. Guess I'll have to try and analyze this later today or tomorrow. Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 04:38:46 GMT Lines: 47 Message-ID: <808635159.524@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <56427528-950815195520@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Jim, I read your post with the correction (2.25 miles) but there is still a considerable difference in our results. After analyzing your procedure with mine, I have pinpointed the area causing the discrepancy. My calculation starts with EIRP and deducts free space loss over the path length in order to derive the signal level reaching the receive antenna. Then, I add the receive antenna gain and deduct line loss, if any. My numbers up to this point are similar to yours. Next, I compare the signal level input to the receiver against ENI (Equivalent Noise Input), which is calculated from noise figure. The result is the Carrier to Noise Ratio. The reason our results are so different is that ENI for a 3.5 dB noise figure (2.0 dB NF + 1.5 dB loss you suggested) is -127.49 dBm. In my calculations, each dB of signal level above that figure is 1 dB of Carrier to Noise Ratio. To clear up this issue, perhaps you could help me with the following questions: 1. Is an ENI of -127.49 dBm realistic at this frequency, or is ambient noise considered to be above this level? I *did* check the ARRL Handbook for common 220 MHz noise figures (< 1 dB). As a result, I assumed that any differences in ambient noise between 220 MHz and microwave would not be significant. 2. How did you arrive at a minimum acceptable signal level of -70 dBm? 3. What Carrier to Noise Ratio would -70 dBm represent, and does it include signal bandwidth as a modifying factor? 4. I was surprised to see that you were considering path fade in the equation. Are you sure this is required for line of sight paths of less than 50 miles at 220 MHz? Thanks for your help with this. If I have made an error, now is the time to find out. I absolutely do not want to mislead the gentleman who asked the original questions on this topic. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!ip240.phx.primenet.com!markem From: markem@primenet.com (Mark Monninger) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:43:11 MST Organization: Primenet Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <40ctvo$r8o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <40r317$odn@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip240.phx.primenet.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4] A while back, someone wrote: >> >>> I think the ARRL quit selling the book because their technical staff >>>doesn't understand conjugate matching. >> Not to start a flamefest, but I read some comments that Maxwell wrote about the ARRL not selling his book any more. He seemed to blame it on their lack of understanding of the subject and their editorial bias toward someone else's theories on the subject, which differed from Maxwell's. He also said that they had removed from the Handbook most of the material that he had contributed over the years. He also mentioned a few QST articles criticizing his material that I went back to and read. Seems there was quite an editorial war in QST a few years back between Maxwell and someone else. Too bad it wasn't here on the net...might have made for some interesting reading... I read his book and thought it made a lot of sense. Based on Maxwell's engineering contributions as an antenna engineer, it would seem he knows something of what he speaks. FWIW... Mark AA7TA From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 14:57:57 GMT Lines: 19 Message-ID: <808672311.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <40ctvo$r8o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <40r317$odn@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 markem@primenet.com (Mark Monninger) wrote: >A while back, someone wrote: I read that post too. Thought it was a joke at the time. >Not to start a flamefest, but I read some comments that Maxwell wrote >about the ARRL not selling his book any more. He seemed to blame it >on their lack of understanding of the subject and their editorial >bias toward someone else's theories on the subject, which differed >from Maxwell's. Mark, where did you read these comments? I'm interested to know more about this. Who is the opposing theorist? 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:27 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!veltman From: veltman@netcom.com (paul Veltman) Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <40ctvo$r8o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <40r317$odn@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 01:25:36 GMT Lines: 41 Sender: veltman@netcom11.netcom.com Mark Monninger (markem@primenet.com) wrote: : A while back, someone wrote: : >> : >>> I think the ARRL quit selling the book because their technical staff : >>>doesn't understand conjugate matching. : >> : Not to start a flamefest, but I read some comments that Maxwell wrote about : the ARRL not selling his book any more. He seemed to blame it on their lack of : understanding of the subject and their editorial bias toward someone else's : theories on the subject, which differed from Maxwell's. He also said that they : had removed from the Handbook most of the material that he had contributed : over the years. He also mentioned a few QST articles criticizing his material : that I went back to and read. Seems there was quite an editorial war in QST a : few years back between Maxwell and someone else. Too bad it wasn't here on the : net...might have made for some interesting reading... : I read his book and thought it made a lot of sense. Based on Maxwell's : engineering contributions as an antenna engineer, it would seem he knows : something of what he speaks. Well sir, Back when this book was a series of articles in QST, I felt that "Reflections" was as good a treatment of the subject as has appeared in most EE texts on the same subject. In fact, when a new ham would wander by, I would slap a copy of these articles on them and tell them to learn it. Then, Rod Stafford was just our division director. I pestered him every time I ran into him to have the big cheeses at Newington publish the series again. Now he's the big cheese. I guess I'll have to start pestering him again. I don't know if the technical staff back there understands conjugate matches or not. And what they understand or don't understand really is not material to the subject. The plain fact is that there's a lot of bovine excrement floating around out there with respect to antenna and transmission line theory, and the ARRL should publish good information, and IMHO, Reflections is good information. Enough of this soapbox. 73 Paul WA6OKQ From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:28 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 06:36:21 GMT Lines: 18 Message-ID: <808728619.18690@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <40ctvo$r8o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <40r317$odn@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 veltman@netcom.com (paul Veltman) wrote: >The plain fact is that there's a lot of bovine excrement floating >around out there with respect to antenna and transmission line >theory, and the ARRL should publish good information, and IMHO, >Reflections is good information. I searched more than twenty-five years for a book like this. To call it "good information" is a gross understatement. It is exceedingly difficult to believe that the ARRL has voluntarily decided to take this work off the shelves. Must be something in the water up there. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:29 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 18 Aug 1995 16:23:11 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: <412epf$miq@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <40r317$odn@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <808672311.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <808672311.6261@pinetree.microserve.com>, WB3U wrote: >Mark, where did you read these comments? I'm interested to know more >about this. Who is the opposing theorist? Jack, I goofed and published parts of a personal letter from Walter Maxwell that I shouldn't have. Mr. Maxwell would like for newsgroup discussions not to include any of that material and I ask everyone to respect those wishes. I appologize for my mistake. Leaving Mr. Maxwell and "Reflections" out of the discussion, IMO the ARRL has taken W5OLY's experimental data to mean that conjugate matching is not important and/or doesn't really exist. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!shipping.ipctech.com!user From: jmp@ipctech.com (John Pendergraft alt.autos.macho-trucks alt.autos.rod-n-custom alt.babylon5.uk alt.bacchus alt.backrubs alt.badgers.rose.rose.rose alt.banjo alt.barney.dinosaur.die.die.die alt.basement.graveyard alt.bbs alt.bbs.ads alt.bbs.allsysop alt.bbs) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? Date: 17 Aug 1995 17:59:45 GMT Organization: IPC Technologies Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: shipping.ipctech.com I just purchased an MFJ roll up J Pole antenna for $14.95 plus C.O.D. and shipping and Tax etc. It works even better than I expected. However, in the package with the antenna is a sheet of paper explaining the warranty procedures and requirements. One of the requirements is that if the product has to be shipped back to MFJ for warranty replacement or repair, that I have to send a $7.00 check or money order for return postage as well as pay for the postage to ship it to them. MFJ verified this on the phone that products older than three months incur the charge. Now, I checked the UPS rate to ship it to them and at 1 pound, shipped UPS Ground, anywhere in the U.S., it costs only $2.97, max. This amount is usually the same for the same weight item shipped in reverse, or from them to me. Where does the other $4.03 go to? I guess in the case of my J Pole it would pay for the cost to manufacture the replacement item. Mayby I could also have the old one back. Maybe they think thats fair because noone ever has to pay the $7.00 becuase none of their products fail under warranty. Hey, thats probobly the reason, Yeh. -- John Pendergraft jmp@ipctech.com From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? Date: 17 Aug 1995 15:27:03 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 22 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <410567$hts@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >Where does the other $4.03 go to? I guess in the case of my J Pole it >would pay for the cost to manufacture the replacement item. Mayby I could >also have the old one back. Maybe they think thats fair because noone ever >has to pay the $7.00 becuase none of their products fail under warranty. >Hey, thats probobly the reason, Yeh. -- >John Pendergraft John, I bought an extended warranty for a car. They charge a $100 fee if you use it. If it needs a voltage regulator it's a bad deal. If it needs a transmission it's great deal. So if you bought a one dollar item it would be a bad deal. If you bought a 300 dollar tuner it would be a different story, wouldn't it? I don't know about you but I'm more worried about 300 bucks than some loose pocket change. ;-) 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 22:48:40 GMT Lines: 22 Message-ID: <808700558.13267@pinetree.microserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 jmp@ipctech.com (John Pendergraft alt.autos.macho-trucks >However, in the package with the antenna is a sheet of paper >explaining the warranty procedures and requirements. One of the >requirements is that if the product has to be shipped back to MFJ >for warranty replacement or repair, that I have to send a $7.00 check >or money order for return postage as well as pay for the postage to >ship it to them. If in fact their printed warranty states that the $7.00 charge is specifically for return postage (not shipping and handling), then they rightfully owe a refund to any person who's return postage is less than that amount. That's not to say they will do it however, thus the warranty may be considerably less worthwhile on less expensive products than it at first appears. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:33 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Need Help on Mobile Antenna Specs Message-ID: <1995Aug17.012816.1192@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <40lqt2$bh6@btree.brooktree.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 01:28:16 GMT Lines: 23 In article <40lqt2$bh6@btree.brooktree.com> tedm@btree.brooktree.com (Ted Morange) writes: >Need help in understanding why the Diamond NR-770HA 2/.7m mobile >antenna is specified as "1-1/2, 2-5/8". It's 40" long total, with only >a loading circuit at the base and a few turns in the whip in the >center. > >The whip length of about 36" roughly corresponds to 1/2 wavelength at >146MHz and 2 x 5/8 wavelength at 445MHz, but what is the theory behind >specifying it in this way? Need references if possible. It's specified that way because that's what it is. On 2 meters it is a simple loaded halfwave radiator. On 70 cm it is two 5/8-wave radiators arranged colinearly with a phasing section in between. That's what that thing that looks like a coil in the middle is, a phasing section that puts the currents in the 2 5/8-wave sections in phase with each other. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:34 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!fastnet!dmarra.fast.net!user From: dmarra@fast.net (David M. Marra) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Need source for "DK-3" HF Mobile Antenna Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:14:58 -0400 Organization: via FASTNET(tm) PA/NJ/DE Internet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: dmarra.fast.net Hi Everyone-- I would like to find the telephone number and/or address for the manufacturer of the DK-3 HF mobile antenna. There is an article in the current issue of QST about it (and other HF mobile antennas) but no contact information is given. Also, any opinions of the DK-3 would be appreciated! Regards, DAVE MARRA--N3ODX dmarra@fast.net From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.sandia.gov!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!newshost.lanl.gov!usenet From: Gerald Schmitt Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Need source for "DK-3" HF Mobile Antenna Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 15:06:55 MST Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Lines: 8 Message-ID: <40tqlr$j20@newshost.lanl.gov> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ggspc.lanl.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage There are a number of suppliers/builders of the Don Johnson antenna. The ones that advertizer in the ham rags cost a bit more to pay for that advertizing. Mel L. Woody made mine and it if a fine antenna. Mel's address is 10109 Marquom Cr. Molalla Or. 97038. His price is fair and he delivers when he says he will. 73 Jerry From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!dfk From: dfk@col.hp.com (David F. Kurth) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Need source for "DK-3" HF Mobile Antenna Date: 17 Aug 1995 00:41:56 GMT Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division Lines: 22 Message-ID: <40u38k$3du@nonews.col.hp.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hplsdrn2.col.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] David M. Marra (dmarra@fast.net) wrote: : Hi Everyone-- : I would like to find the telephone number and/or address for the : manufacturer of the DK-3 HF mobile antenna. I got mine as a kit (to save a few $$) from: High Sierra Antennas Box 2389 Nevada City, CA 95959 916-273-3415 916-273-7561 Fax (QST also carries an ad in the back) I called and promptly got a flyer with pictures and diagrams of the antenna, and pictures of the various mounts available. When I ordered the antenna, it arrived at my door when promised. I'm pleased with its perforance too. Dave N0UVR From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Need source for "DK-3" HF Mobile Antenna Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 01:49:08 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <40tqlr$j20@newshost.lanl.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: Gerald Schmitt Gerald Schmitt writes: >antenna. The ones that advertizer in the ham rags cost a bit >more to pay for that advertizing. Mel L. Woody made mine and it Well, all tings being equal the advertised products will sell for less because a product selling in mass costs less to make. Woody may sell for less because (purely guessing) he has no employees, working out of his home, not paying disability, SS, etc. Get a couple of employees and you need a bookeeper to do all the taz stuff etc. I the history of the USA it was when Sat eve post and others came along where mfgs could reach a large audience that the economic life improved. From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cville-srv.wam.umd.edu!ham From: ham@wam.umd.edu (Scott Richard Rosenfeld) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Parasitic elements question Date: 16 Aug 1995 16:28:42 GMT Organization: University of Maryland College Park Lines: 31 Message-ID: <40t6bq$1hb@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rac2.wam.umd.edu I would like to, in my limited-space arrangement (my attic), set up an array of 2-element beams, each consisting of a driven element and a reflector. I live in a townhouse, and can't get anything rotatable up for 6m. Anyway, I have a remote coax switch. What I'd like to do is set up two reflecting elements, set 90 degrees apart. For EACH reflector element, I'd set up TWO driven elements, one on each side of the reflector. I'd then choose to drive ONE of them. The question: Will this work? Will the undriven element (located "behind" the reflector) have a negative effect on the front-to-back ratio of the array? I can build the system, no problem. But IS IT WORTH IT??? Alternate plan? A system with THREE antennas 120 degrees apart. The reflectors would be arranged in a triangle, and the driven ele- ments set up as required. Questions? Comments? Would the addi- tional reflectors between the CHOSEN driven elements and the UNUSED driven elements provide more in the way of isolation? How about a shortened 6m Yagi? I know it sounds dumb but I am REALLY limited space-wise. -- Member, Leukemia Society's "Team in Training." | Tax-deductible contributions Run/walk in Bermuda Marathon, Jan. 12-15, 1996 | accepted and welcome. Email -----------------------------------------------| or call for more info. All Scott Rosenfeld Burtonsville MD 301-549-1022 | sponsors welcomed. Thanks! From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!rohvm1!mahpfy Organization: Rohm and Haas Company Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:21:11 EDT From: Message-ID: <95228.132111MAHPFY@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Rubber Duck Distribution: world References: <9508141831281116@hawgwild.com> Lines: 0 I like Larson....Just a thought.... Pete, KA3ROG From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:38 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!moritz From: moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Rubber Duck Date: 17 Aug 1995 13:12:23 GMT Organization: Comp.Center (RUS), U of Stuttgart, FRG Lines: 10 Message-ID: <40vf7n$250i@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <9508141831281116@hawgwild.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de >I need a new rubber duck for my 2m HT. Anyone have any comments on >which brand is better than another? Thanks Just get the most expensive you can find. Not that it will worl well, but you will be able to pride youself of having paid well. 73, Moritz DL5UH From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!wupost!news1.inlink.com!usenet From: raiar@inlink.com (Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Rubber Duck Date: 17 Aug 1995 04:53:02 GMT Organization: Inlink Lines: 11 Distribution: world Message-ID: <40uhve$a3k@news1.inlink.com> References: <9508141831281116@hawgwild.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip59.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 In article <9508141831281116@hawgwild.com>, bob.boetcher@hawgwild.com says... > >Hi, >I need a new rubber duck for my 2m HT. Anyone have any comments on >which brand is better than another? Thanks >Bob A Larson is an excellent albeit expensive choice! Gary From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!netnews.lightside.com!user55.lightside.com!user From: wb6siv@lightside.com (Raymond J. Sarrio) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Rubber Duck Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 18:04:21 +0100 Organization: Raymond Sarrio Co. Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <9508141831281116@hawgwild.com> <40vf7n$250i@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: user55.lightside.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article <40vf7n$250i@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de>, moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () wrote: > >I need a new rubber duck for my 2m HT. Anyone have any comments on > >which brand is better than another? Thanks We have an antenna in our WWW catalog called the Floppy Duck. What makes it work so great is that it is a full 1/2 wave on 2 meters and will load fine on 70cm. the key is that it up 8" before it flops over, and so the name. We have many other rubber ducks to choose from, check them aou at http://www.csz.com/sarrio.html 73's Ray -- Ray Sarrio Co. http://www.csz.com/sarrio.html From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:40 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!purdue!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!moritz From: moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Rubber Duck Date: 18 Aug 1995 10:27:33 GMT Organization: Comp.Center (RUS), U of Stuttgart, FRG Lines: 11 Message-ID: <411pul$23gi@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <9508141831281116@hawgwild.com> <40vf7n$250i@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de >We have an antenna in our WWW catalog called the Floppy Duck. What makes >it work so great is that it is a full 1/2 wave on 2 meters and .... Up to now I thought that the main idea of a rubber duck was to have a *compact* antenna. How does having a 40" ( 1 meter) rubber device hanging out from your HT, floping around and generally amusing/annoying byestanders fit in here? 73, Moritz DL5UH From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:41 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uknet!bcc.ac.uk!news From: davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk (Dave Kirkby) Subject: SWR - how good is good???????? Sender: news@ucl.ac.uk (Usenet News System) Message-ID: <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:59:34 GMT Reply-To: davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk Organization: UCL Dept of Medical Physics Lines: 33 I have a requirement in a computer program, to determine an antenna SWR, then compute a 'quality factor' for it. ie: SWR=1:1 Quality =10/10 SWR=infinity Quality = 0/10 Ideally I want a function that takes SWR as an argument and returns a number between 0 and 1.0, that reflects how good the SWR is. It should be a continuous function. Where would 1.5:1 be? Perhaps 9/10?? How about 2:1?? The number I get is used to optimise an antenna, which gets optimised for gain, sidelobe level, swr, fb ratio etc. I want to put just the right amount of bias on each parameter. I first assumed that if I gave a quality that was directly proportional to the fraction of power radiated by the antenna: Quality proportional to: (1 - ((SWR-1)/(SWR+1))^2) this would work well. However, poor SWR's are given too high a bias by this. An SWR of 5.8:1 is given 5/10, when most people would think an SWR of nearly 6:1 as being about as good as no good, so perhaps deserving only 1 or 2 out of 10. Any thoughts? One option is to write down ten different VSWR's, give then marks out ten, then fit a polynomial. But how does one do this semi-objectively??? davek From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:42 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Date: 16 Aug 1995 15:54:57 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 32 Message-ID: <40t4ch$9av@news.azstarnet.com> References: <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite34.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk (Dave Kirkby) wrote: > >I have a requirement in a computer program, to determine an antenna SWR, then >compute a 'quality factor' for it. ie: > >SWR=1:1 Quality =10/10 >SWR=infinity Quality = 0/10 > >Ideally I want a function that takes SWR as an argument and returns a number between >0 and 1.0, that reflects how good the SWR is. It should be a continuous function. [stuff deleted so my newsreader is happy] > >Any thoughts? One option is to write down ten different VSWR's, give then marks out >ten, then fit a polynomial. But how does one do this semi-objectively??? > >davek > Assuming you're continuing your work with Yagis, I must ask why you are so conserned with SWR. IMHO, this is a matching problem, not one that affects (to the first order) the gain, FB, etc. If you worry about getting a good match at the center of the driven element, aren't you automatically conpromising the other parameters? You might want to consider the change (delta) of the driven element impedance across some bandwidth as a figure of merit. This might make the (later) design of a matching system easier, but I can't imagine what a "good" number might be. If you still want to use SWR, I wouldn't extend the limit to infinity though. How about 10:1? Regards, Wes From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news2.tele.fi!news.inet.tele.fi!usenet From: Osmo.Vuorio@tele.telebox.fi (Osmo Vuorio) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Date: 16 Aug 1995 21:20:50 GMT Organization: TELECOM FINLAND, Engineering Lines: 22 Message-ID: <40tnfi$ct5@kuikka.inet.fi> References: <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: vuorios1.dial.tele.fi X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ In article <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk>, davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk (Dave Kirkby) says: .. >I first assumed that if I gave a quality that was directly proportional to the >fraction of power radiated by the antenna: > >Quality proportional to: (1 - ((SWR-1)/(SWR+1))^2) > >this would work well. However, poor SWR's are given too high a bias by this. An SWR >of 5.8:1 is given 5/10, when most people would think an SWR of nearly 6:1 as being >about as good as no good, so perhaps deserving only 1 or 2 out of 10. > >Any thoughts? One option is to write down ten different VSWR's, give then marks out >ten, then fit a polynomial. But how does one do this semi-objectively??? .. In the name of the TX output power this is a good question. This classical '1-r*r' reflection concept may not be accepted. But how about to use the voltage: '1-r' - nothing comes back from the transmitter end (not true). It is true that with 1 kW Tx power we have to keep the SWR in proper limits. I think some proportional scaling would be adequate. Osmo, OH2EU From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 05:56:14 GMT Lines: 54 Message-ID: <808639806.1371@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk (Dave Kirkby) wrote: >I have a requirement in a computer program, to determine an antenna >SWR, then compute a 'quality factor' for it. ie: Dave, There is a conceptual problem with what you are trying to do. It is entirely possible (and not uncommon) that an antenna with a 4:1 VSWR will be more efficient than one which provides a ratio of 2:1 or less. In the context of a single measurement, VSWR is an extremely poor indicator of the quality of either antennas or antenna systems. >Ideally I want a function that takes SWR as an argument and returns a >number between 0 and 1.0, that reflects how good the SWR is. >The number I get is used to optimise an antenna, which gets optimised >for gain, sidelobe level, swr, fb ratio etc. I want to put just the >right amount of bias on each parameter. You cannot optimize an antenna in this manner unless you know what effect a change in VSWR will have on the *system* loss. In other words, sacrificing gain for lower VSWR is only valid if the reduced VSWR nets the operator sufficiently reduced feedline loss to compensate for the reduced gain of the antenna. >I first assumed that if I gave a quality that was directly >proportional to the fraction of power radiated by the antenna: This is a misconception. Assuming the transmitter can match the impedance seen at the feedline and excluding feedline losses, increased VSWR does not reduce the power consumed or radiated by the antenna. Reflected power is not lost, it is re-reflected at the transmitter and fed back to the antenna. >Quality proportional to: (1 - ((SWR-1)/(SWR+1))^2) > >this would work well. However, poor SWR's are given too high a bias >by this. An SWR of 5.8:1 is given 5/10, when most people would think >an SWR of nearly 6:1 as being about as good as no good, so perhaps >deserving only 1 or 2 out of 10. Are you attempting to define numbers on the basis of what people think (i.e. for marketing purposes) or on the basis of engineering? >Any thoughts? One option is to write down ten different VSWR's, give >then marks out ten, then fit a polynomial. But how does one do this >semi-objectively??? You can't. It's just not that simple. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!ames!titan.ksc.nasa.gov!kscdl1.cad.ksc.nasa.gov!k4dii.ksc.nasa.gov!user Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Message-ID: From: frederick.mckenzie-1@kmail.ksc.nasa.gov (Fred McKenzie) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:34:44 -0400 References: <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk> Organization: NASA, Kennedy Space Center, Florida Nntp-Posting-Host: k4dii.ksc.nasa.gov Lines: 24 In article <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk>, davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk wrote: > I have a requirement in a computer program, to determine an antenna SWR, then > compute a 'quality factor' for it. davek- You don't appear to have all the facts laid out here. If your system is working at HF, and has the capability of matching a wide range of impedance, then a 'quality factor' would be quite high (10) throughout that range of impedance. On the other hand, if your system is working at UHF, and uses RG-58 Co-Ax, then losses will be increasingly high for SWR > 1:1. Therefore, I suggest you include equations for transmission line loss in your calculations. You might create a look-up table of loss per unit length vs frequency. Having taken loss into consideration, your 'quality factor' might be related to the logarithm of the power efficiency, where zero would be the point where the system fails to work. Note that actual SWR is higher than apparent SWR, if measured at the transmitter end of a lossy Co-Ax cable. 73, Fred, K4DII From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.oberlin.edu!ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu!PRUTH From: pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Using manual antenna tuner with autotuner Date: 17 Aug 1995 13:23:39 GMT Organization: Oberlin College, Oberlin, Ohio Lines: 14 Message-ID: <40vfsr$62@news.cc.oberlin.edu> Reply-To: pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Does it make sense to use a manual antenna tuner in conjunction with an autotuner? The autotuner in the Yaesu FL-7000 can reduce a 3:1 SWR to 1.2:1, but I think the G5RV I'm using has an SWR higher than 3:1 on 80m, for example. I'm a little confused on the intent of the '7000's autotuner, whether it's supposed to merely "touch up" the tuning established by an additional antenna tuner, or whether it's meant to work alone. The '7000 tuned up nicely with a Butternut HF6V, but due to RFI I switched to the "all-band" G5RV which has given me a variety of SWR readings from band to band. The '7000 is currently in the Yaesu Clinic undergoing diagnosis and treatment, and I'm planning to welcome it back either with an antenna tuner companion or a multiband antenna that will be easy on its finicky constitution. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Bill KB8 USZ pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ux4.cso.uiuc.edu!rgoldber From: goldberger raanan i Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: what kind of antenna Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:44:03 -0500 Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ux4.cso.uiuc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If this is not the right place to ask this question please tell me where I should. I have an apartment half below ground level and the cable TV junction box is on the other side of my wall. I am barely receiving the local channels with standard uhf and vhf antennas. I am picking up some cable channels through the antennas. I was wondering if there is a certain type of antenna I could use to receive all the channels that the junction box is leaking. At the very least is there an antenna to pick up the local channels clearly. Thanks in advance. rgoldber@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu From amsoft@epix.net Fri Aug 18 14:46:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!sc2c526a.ra.osd.mil!nova.sti.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.telepac.pt!usenet From: Fernando Rego Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: What kind of antenna Date: 16 Aug 1995 21:06:17 GMT Organization: telepac Lines: 6 Message-ID: <40tmk9$fdo@vivaldi.telepac.pt> NNTP-Posting-Host: lis4_p16.telepac.pt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Hi. I built a receiver from 40Mhz to 860Mhz. What kind of antenna do i have to bulilt for this receiver? Thus anyone have a program to calculate the right lenght to the antenna? Fernando Rego. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:29 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: kb0qan@netcom.COM (tim woo) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: (none) Date: 20 Aug 95 18:02:34 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu unsubscribe ham-ant kb0qan@netcom.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:30 1995 From: WLHamaty@msn.com (Luke Hamaty) Subject: RE: 2M Co-Axial Gamma Match Date: 18 Aug 95 23:15:37 -0700 References: <405kk7$ibk@news.service.uci.edu> Message-ID: <00001fea+00000caf@msn.com> Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.msn.com!msn.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Organization: The Microsoft Network (MSN) Lines: 10 I've had good results using a hairpin match to feed the antenna at ~200 ohms using a 4:1 balun constructed with 1/2 wave (electrical) of coax. I used RG-174 coax 'cause its small and I had some and didn't need power, but RG-58 will work as long as it has the solid insulation, not foam. The hairpin can be #12 electrical wire. Real simple to build if you can cut-and try or can model the antenna. I built two using Yagimax and a hairpin calculation program to figure the driven element and hairpin lengths, and both were right on the money. 73 de KQ4OQ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon.jsc.nasa.gov!ames!lll-winken.llnl.gov!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!cc02du.unity.ncsu.edu!jwprice From: jwprice@unity.ncsu.edu (Jim Price N3QYE) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 3 element vertical dipole phased-array Date: 21 Aug 1995 15:17:10 GMT Organization: North Carolina State University Lines: 12 Message-ID: <41a81m$tne@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> References: <418pv5$5vu@tivoli.tivoli.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cc02du.unity.ncsu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Rev. Tim (tim@thinkagain.com) wrote: : a three element phased array w/ transformer built from : three center fed vertical dipoles made of telescoping aluminum. : The full lenght of each dipole is 5.28 meters (17'4"), which works : out to right about 27MHz (11 meter CB, I do believe.) Could you use them for something on 20m? Just a little trimming would get you 1/4-wave elements. I don't have the experience to know whether you could or not. 73 Jim N3QYE, jwprice@unity.ncsu.edu From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!ornews.intel.com!ornews.intel.com!not-for-mail From: zardoz@ornews.intel.com (Jim Garver) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/8 Wave vs. j-pole Date: 18 Aug 1995 16:38:57 -0700 Organization: Intel Corporation Lines: 12 Message-ID: <4138ah$c0@ornews.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ornews.intel.com >A half wave dipole in free space has 2.15 dB gain over an isotropic >radiator. The ground can add 4.8 dB or so to this gain, for a total of 7 >dBi for a simple vertical dipole above a perfect ground. Well, now we know how the antenna manufacturers arrived at those fantastic gain claims. Boy, oh boy! -- zardoz@ornews.intel.com WA7LDV No plane, no gain. I speak only for myself Go out and fly today! From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.iii.net!dts From: dts@peanut.senie.com (Daniel Senie) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 70cm sets off sensor light?? Date: 20 Aug 1995 20:48:27 GMT Organization: Daniel Senie Consulting Lines: 29 Message-ID: <41873e$f93@news.iii.net> References: <40mjk7$os1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: peanut.iii.net In article <40mjk7$os1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, Drew Loker wrote: ) )I have an external antenna at about 25', which is about 30 feet away )from a motion sensor flood light int he back yard. WHen I xmit on any )70cm freq, it is setting the sensor light off. Is there anything I can do )about this? Moving either is not really an option. ) )Thanks!! )Drew Loker, loker@tenet.edu Many brands of these passive infrared motion detector lights can be set off at a significant distance using 2 meters or 70cm, or many other frequencies. The motion detectors are not immune to RF. Some are, but many are not. Some local hams have had good luck with the Heath/Zenith brand of motion detector lights, and don't have RF setting them off. One former co-worker built a house a short distance from K1EA, who has a rather active packetcluster node with radios on 2m and 70cm. His motion detector lights never stopped turning on and off. I told the fellow that he'd have to replace the detectors or use regular switches to get it to stop... Dan N1JEB -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Senie Internet: dan@senie.com, Daniel Senie Consulting n1jeb@senie.com http://www.senie.com Packet Radio: N1JEB@KA1SRD.MA From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.nic.surfnet.nl!sun4nl!news.iaf.nl!idn!dnc!rik.van.riel From: Rik.Van.Riel@dnc.idn.nl (Rik Van Riel) Date: 20 Aug 95 22:51:42 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: ? LongWave (198kHz) antenna Message-ID: <105_9508210400@idn.nl> X-FTN-To: Steve McKinty - SunSoft ICNC Grenob Organization: IDN Internet Gateway Lines: 38 SM-S> From: smckinty@sunicnc.France.Sun.COM (Steve McKinty - SunSoft ICNC SM-S> Grenoble) Date: 14 Aug 1995 13:46:29 GMT SM-S> Organization: SunConnect The story goes: SM-S> I know that isn't an amateur band, but I'd appreciate any help, SM-S> most of my antenna experiments have been VHF, not HF. SM-S> I live in SE France, and my girlfriend has recently moved to SM-S> an apartment at about 800m ASL. On a small portable radio the SM-S> BBC signal on 198kHz is faint, but audible. Not really a SM-S> usable signal. SM-S> Any suggestions on dimensions, tuning, and any other hints (including SM-S> RTFM pointers) would be welcome. Would replacing the HiFi tuner's loop SM-S> with a ferrite rod antenna help? If the HiFi has an external loop antenna, you could make a longwire outside (~10 or more metres) and use an inductive coupling with your HiFi (see below) to make sure the tuner won't be influenced concerning it's frequency =========OO----------------------------------------- ^ ^^ ^ to HiFi || your longwire HiFi's | \ ferrite loop/ \ internal ferrite \--------either a ferrite bar from your longwire bar next to the ferrite bar inside your HiFi, or next to the HiFi's external loop, try till you find the best position ... ... from the border between openminded and emptyheaded. -- | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!waikato!midland.co.nz!newsource.ihug.co.nz!news From: petals@ihug.co.nz (Peter and Alexis Smith) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Amateur radio antennas Date: 19 Aug 1995 15:14:54 GMT Organization: The Internet Group Lines: 8 Message-ID: <414v5e$7fq@newsource.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp3-03.ihug.co.nz X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1 I am looking for information on an antenna known as the Carolina Windom, which I know is fed with a single wire at some point around two/thirds or three/quarters of its flat top length. Any details sufficient to let me build one of these would be very much appreciated. I can of course be contacted here or via ZL1ARB. 73 Peter From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:34 1995 From: WLHamaty@msn.com (Luke Hamaty) Subject: RE: Antenna spark problem Date: 18 Aug 95 23:33:37 -0700 References: <40empe$dh0@nnrp3.primenet.com> Message-ID: <00001fea+00000cb0@msn.com> Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.msn.com!msn.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Organization: The Microsoft Network (MSN) Lines: 13 Just to be sure... does the spark occur exactly when you disconnect the antenna? Does it happen if you disconnect it when there are no storms nearby? The reason I am asking is that I once had a problem where AC was leaking from one side of the line through a bad component into the chassis of my rig. The rig wasn't grounded but the coax shield was, so by disconnecting the antenna there was 120V at thankfully low current on between the rig and the coax. You can guess how I discovered that! Best idea is to have a station ground connected to an 8-ft ground round, and ground each piece of equipment to that. If the antenna can have a DC ground too, even better. The Handbook has a good discussion of this. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:34 1995 From: WLHamaty@msn.com (Luke Hamaty) Subject: Re: Antenna spark problem Date: 18 Aug 95 23:37:59 -0700 References: <40empe$dh0@nnrp3.primenet.com> Message-ID: <00001fea+00000cb1@msn.com> Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.msn.com!msn.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Organization: The Microsoft Network (MSN) Lines: 10 >>>If there is no gap there can be no spark. I took two SO-239s and soldered their center conductors together with the braid from the RG-59 I had. I used lots of solder. I ran another piece of braid to the "shielded" section on each connector, essentially shorting both connectors. Better to use a good mechanical connection. Solder vaporizes too easily when exposed to lightning. Also, more is not better when it comes to solder. A blob of solder is a lead-tin resistor. The key is to "wet" both surfaces in contact with each other. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: buddy10@aol.com (BUDDY10) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Antenna/coil design program Date: 20 Aug 1995 19:53:44 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 1 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <418hu8$r1t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40c8ce$67t@news2.deltanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader What the hell is this and why is it posted continuously ? From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Any good antenna tuners? Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 07:40:07 GMT Lines: 26 Message-ID: <808818855.6170@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <808636141.524@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Jim Durham wrote: >I've wondered this myself. Seems like a fun thing to do might be to >put an HF slug in a Bird, tune up the rig into a dummy, and read it, >then shove it through a Matchbox or whatever and read the difference. >I don't have any Bird slugs appropiate, does anyone? Who could do >this test? No need, Jim. There's a two part article in the April/May '95 issues of QST called "How to Evaluate Your Antenna Tuner". In this article, the author checks a number of tuner for three main parameters: power loss, SWR bandwidth, and output balance. He performs these tests over a reasonably wide range of output impedances, on each of the bands 80M thru 10M, and the results are published in the article. He also explains the procedures and equipment needed to do the tests. Overall, it's a pretty inexpensive proposition, except for the tuners themselves. BTW, the results were all over the place on the various tuners. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.pgh.net!w2xo.pgh.pa.us!durham From: Jim Durham Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Any good antenna tuners? Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 19:32:22 -0400 Organization: Pittsburgh OnLine, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <808636141.524@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: w2xo.pgh.pa.us Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <808636141.524@pinetree.microserve.com> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, WB3U wrote: > >> tjb9c@avery.med.Virginia.EDU (Theodore J. Bittner) wrote: > > > I run low power <100 watts into a G5RV @ 25 ft because > >of CCR's, so my tuner needs to work well with an all band > >antenna. > > the used market, the low power Johnson Matchbox is a great performer. > (stuff deleted) > > BTW, the subject of tuners is a somewhat personal issue due to a lack > of hard and fast data on the efficiency of many models. > I've wondered this myself. Seems like a fun thing to do might be to put an HF slug in a Bird, tune up the rig into a dummy, and read it, then shove it through a Matchbox or whatever and read the difference. Of course, this would only show the efficiency in the 50 ohm case. I know that a 250 watt matchbox isn't too efficient in loading very low impedance loads. Loss = heat. I burned mine up..took me years to find the replacement coils! So, I suspect that a lot of measurements would have to be made to get the real story, but a 50 ohm experiment would be easy and might at least show some ballpar results. I don't have any Bird slugs appropiate, does anyone? Who could do this test? 73 -Jim, W2XO From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 18 Aug 1995 17:14:53 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 7 Message-ID: <412hqd$a4b@maureen.teleport.com> References: <410dhl$6gg@nuclear.microserve.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx7-45.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) Regarding using a balun at the input side of a tuner, see "Some Additional Aspects of the Balun Problem" by Al Roehm, W2OBJ in the ARRL Antenna Compendium, Vol. 2. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:38 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 19 Aug 1995 02:35:20 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 23 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4140n8$l9k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <413iou$bsp@parsifal.nando.net> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Don: Sorry but I still disagree with: >The voltage at the midpoint of an antenna will be at zero volts with >respect to the RF voltages present over the entire antenna, and this >center point can even be grounded with no change in the radiation or >feed requirements assuming we could get an actual ground point up at >the antenna location. Unless you specify the antenna is unbroken at the center, such as in a yagi. If you specify an unbroken feedpoint then this is true: >Since the voltage is zero, the voltage at the feedpoint cannot be >the cause of RF current flowing on the coax shield. This is the main >point I am making. For a conventional dipole, which I thought we were discussing there is voltage, with the antenna resonant or not. If there would be no voltage, the feedpoint impedance would be zero ohms. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 07:59:26 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: <808820013.6170@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40u96h$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> <40ueo0$5ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <413iou$bsp@parsifal.nando.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 DB Wilhelm wrote: >If we remove the antenna from the end of the feedline, and replace it >with a resistor with a value the same as the antenna feed impedance, >then key the transmitter - How much RF current will flow on the >outside of the feedline? - None. The resistor will have the same >voltage at the feedpoint as the antenna if this voltage theory is >correct, and the same currents should flow. My conclusion is that >the voltage at the feedpoint is not the cause of any RF on the >shield. Don, I think that if you place an axial-lead resistor across the coax, RF *will* flow on the outside of the shield. Just as with the dipole, there will be an attraction to ground by RF exiting the inside of the shield. This is one of the reasons commercial dummy loads use coaxial resistors, or at least circumferential shielding. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:41 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug20.145346.16420@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <40qikf$o2a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:53:46 GMT Lines: 146 In article <40qikf$o2a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: >Jack wrote: >: Not true. The ARRL Antenna Book explains this best: >: "A centerfed antenna with open ends, of which the half-wave type is an >: example, is inherently a balanced radiator. . . . If the antenna is >: fed at the center through a coaxial line, this balance is upset >: because one side of the radiator is connected to the shield while the >: other is connected to the inner conductor. On the side connected to >: the shield, a current can flow down over the *outside* of the coaxial > >Steve replied> >>The olde inside out gag. Someone is selling a lot of baluns. > >>Here I am up at the center of my dipole hanging on with one hand while >>examining the center of my coax fed dipole. I notice the braid coming >>from the coax and the center conductor form a Y where they connect. >>The braid is rather flat, wrapped around the dipole's wire and soldered. > >>now I ax this question, which is the "outside of the braid"??? The old >>jazz about RF flowing down the outside of the braid sounds like >>something from one of those W2AU BIG SIGNAL adds. > >Ahh, but RF current certainly can flow on only the inside or outside of a >closed hollow conductor. That effect is fundamental to how many things >work, Steve. If >RF current on the shield and center conductor terminations are balanced >and 180 degrees out of phase current flows ONLY on the inner surface of >the shield of coaxial cable and the outer surface of the center conductor! > >Current appears on the outside of the cable only when the current in the >center and shield is NOT balanced and 180 degrees out of phase >(assuming the conductor is much thicker than the skin depth at the >operating frequency). Well, that's almost true. Assuming adequate skin depth, no transmisson line forward currents flow on the outside of coax. And forward transmission line currents are always 180 degrees out of phase on inner and outer unless there is an unbalanced reactance in series with one of the conductors but not the other causing a phase lead or lag. This is all *inside* the coax, thanks to skin effect, and has no effect on coax radiation, or lack thereof. >>Why does current flow? Usually because there is a difference in >>potential between two points. Right? At the center of a matched dipole, >>there is no voltage. Right? So there is no current "flowing back down >>the coax". > >Absolutely.....NOT!!!! There certainly is voltage if there is any power at >all! If the antenna is perfectly balanced 50 ohms with 1500 watts there is >274 volts RMS across the terminals or 387 volts peak. Half of this >voltage appears from the terminal connected to the shield and earth. The >voltage potential exists for appreciable current to flow in a matched >dipole system! If the antenna is not perfectly symmetrical this condition >can become either worse or better. Well, you can't say that half the voltage appears between shield and Earth. That would assume that Earth is at a potential of zero volts, and we don't know that's true. In fact, we don't know the potential of Earth at all in many cases. Calling Earth zero volts is just a convention. The potential of a given point on Earth can vary widely, and *will* due to the induced current mirror under the antenna. And it doesn't matter anyway in many other cases, for example suppose the coax shield is not connected to an Earth ground, autos and airplanes are obvious examples. Then there isn't a complete circuit to Earth. All we can say about the potential at the antenna feedpoint is that the differential between inner and outer is 274 volts under the conditions stated. What the potential is between either the inner or the outer and Earth is an unknown without further information. In particular, we need to know things like the feeder length, antenna height above Earth, and antenna symmetry with respect to Earth before we can say much of anything at all about the potential between either conductor of the coax at the feedpoint and Earth. >>That braid will have no more effect than balanced open wire unless >>it picks up the system becomes unbalanced and baluns don't balance >>your dipole by the way. If that wire slants or passes by a metal tower >>etc., your dipole will be unbalanced and THEN you will have current on >>the feeder. AND you would have antenna currents on ANY feeder, not >>just coax. Try a Windom some day! Talk about Frying you chops! > >The balun's job is not to balance the antenna. The job is to balance the >current in the feedline (yes even open wire) so it does not have parallel >radiating currents. Adding a properly designed balun at the antenna >terminals will stop feedline radiation with any twin wire or coaxial line. Since all forward transmission line currents in coax are *inside* the outer shielding, as you stated above, it is *impossible* for them to radiate regardless of whether the currents flowing in the inner and outer are balanced. The skin depth of the outer shielding prevents that by forming a Faraday cage to any radiation field. This is different from the open wire case where unbalanced currents can generate uncancelled radiation fields free to escape into space. >The fact the antenna is not symmetrical has nothing to do with this >problem. It is a feedline to the feedline's termination problem. Absolutely not! Steve's at least half correct. It is unbalanced induction fields picked up by the coax shield that causes radiation currents to flow on the coax outside. That *requires* an asymmetry in the installation of the antenna and coax. It's this lack of *physical* balance that permits uncancelled induction field induced currents to flow on the coax shield's outer surface. I say he's half correct because an electrical imbalance can do a similar thing. The impedance presented by the antenna leg connected to the inner can differ from the impedance presented by the antenna leg and coax outside connected to the inside of the coax outer conductor. In other words, the currents on this leg *can* "turn the corner" and divide between this antenna leg and the coax outside. A choke balun can stop this by raising the impedance of the coax outside path to a high value, and thus forcing the currents to divide unequally in favor of this antenna leg rather than the coax so that the leg's currents nearly match those in the other antenna leg (assuming physical balance of the legs). So-called voltage baluns and current baluns will *not* do this, unless they also happen to function as choke baluns (which fortunately most do). A current balun can force equal currents into two antenna legs, but unless those legs are physically symmetric with respect to each other, and to the coax, this will not stop induction field imbalances from causing radiation currents to flow on the coax outside. Physical balance is the key factor. If you don't have that, no balun can correct the problem of a "hot" feeder. However, a shield *can*. If you shield the feeder from induction fields, it can't become "hot" from those fields. An example of that is a coax routed under the groundplane of a vertical on a car. The metal body shields the feeder from induction field pickup, and stops outer currents attempting to "turn the corner". Incidentally that's why on-glass antennas are bad. The glass is ineffective at shielding the coax outside from unbalanced induction fields, and doesn't stop currrents trying to "turn the corner", so the coax becomes "hot" and contributes to the radiation (inside the car where you don't want it). It should be obvious that a balun is useless for an asymmetric antenna like a coax fed vertical monopole. There is nothing balanced about the antenna to "bal" to. All you can do in such cases is attempt to shield the coax from induction fields. It's already self-shielded against radiation due to unbalanced currents *inside* the coax. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:42 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug20.152407.16550@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <40qikf$o2a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <40u96h$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 15:24:07 GMT Lines: 55 In article <40u96h$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> DB Wilhelm writes: >w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) wrote: > >When the antenna is a resonant dipole, the feedpoint is an RF voltage >minimum and a current maximum. Therefore we could ground the feedpoint >of the dipole. This in fact is what is done in many beam antennas, >the driven element is fastened to the boom, and the boom is often >grounded as well. The point is that there should be zero volts RF >across the feedpoint of a resonant dipole. No, there should be zero volts precisely at the *mid-point* of a dipole, but we don't drive it there. We drive it a bit to either side of that point (Tee Match), or asymmetrically to one side of that point (Gamma Match), where the impedance convienently appears as 50+j0. Or we split it and feed the separate pieces. We never try to drive the geometric center. If we tried, we'd need a single wire feeder, and the dipole would just function as a capacity hat for that feeder which would become our actual radiator. >Could it be that we do not really have a half wave dipole, and >that is the real cause of most of the RF on the outside of the coax. >If the feedpoint does have a voltage differential, there will be current >flow on the outside of the coax since it is grounded, and will result >in a skewed pattern to boot. The coax isn't always grounded. Consider for example a battery powered rig sitting on a picnic table driving a dipole hung in the trees through a piece of coax. The coax has no connection to Earth, in fact *nothing* in the system has a connection to Earth, but it works just the same. And we can still have a "hot" feeder too, because of physical imbalances that induce currents on the outside of the coax, or because of currents attempting to "turn the corner". The coax is physically part of one leg of the antenna. Currents will try to flow on it just as they do on the antenna leg. That results in a geometric imbalance of the radiating elements, and a skewed pattern. Since a dipole doesn't have much of a pattern to begin with, especially one mounted low, the pattern skew is hardly ever significant, but a "hot shack" can be. A choke balun mounted at the feedpoint can stop currents from "turning the corner" and flowing back down the outside of the coax, but it does nothing to stop induced field currents from a physically asymmetric installation. A choke balun *at the shack*, however, can stop hot shack problems from either cause. It won't correct pattern skew, of course, only physical symmetry can do that. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:43 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug20.154310.16746@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <40u96h$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> <40ueo0$5ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 15:43:10 GMT Lines: 44 In article <40ueo0$5ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: >Hi Don, > >Sorry, but I disagree with this totally: > >>When the antenna is a resonant dipole, the feedpoint is an RF voltage >>minimum and a current maximum. Therefore we could ground the feedpoint >>of the dipole. This in fact is what is done in many beam antennas, >>the driven element is fastened to the boom, and the boom is often >>grounded as well. The point is that there should be zero volts RF >>across the feedpoint of a resonant dipole. > >The key word is minimum, but the minimum can not be zero. If it is zero >the power is zero. There is a finite amount of current, and a finite >amount of voltage. If the SWR is 1:1 with a 50 ohm feedline, the voltage >to current ratio must provide a 50 ohm impedance (this is similar to the >source impedance I talked about in conjugate mating a PA stage to the >load). So it boils down to E/I must equal 50 for a 1:1 SWR in a 50 ohm >system. Whether it's 50 volts and one amp, or 5000 volts and 100 amps >depends on the power level, but the ratio stays the same. No, the geometric center of a resonant dipole *really* is a zero voltage point. That's why we can use plumber's delight construction techniques and not have current flows down the boom. The reason we get a 50+j0 ohms feedpoint is that we *offset* our connections to the dipole from the exact geometric center. We do that in a lot of different ways, from a Gamma Match to a Tee Match to cutting the dipole in two and separating the pieces from the geometric center. In all those cases, we're feeding the dipole somewhere *other* than at the precise geometric center where the voltage must be zero and current maximum. Of course at any frequency except exact resonance, the geometric center is no longer precisely zero volts, but it remains very low over a fairly reasonable bandwidth, so plumber's delight construction remains viable over an amateur band. If the center approached 50 ohms, then much of the current would flow down the boom instead of out the elements and we'd have a lousy F/B ratio. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:44 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug20.154958.16836@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <808358676.18704@pinetree.microserve.com> <40u7d2$24g@parsifal.nando.net> <40uch0$lpk@news.azstarnet.com> <808674097.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 15:49:58 GMT Lines: 20 In article <808674097.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: >This requires that the feedline (or any source or load) be >electrically symmetrical. In most cases at RF, this also means it >will be physically summetrical. > >It is the symmetry of the entire system with respect to ground that >maintains balance. Symmetry is the key, but not with respect to ground. The system must be symmetric with respect to *itself*, IE self-symmetry. Any balanced antenna is self-symmetric, and doesn't work against ground. It's that self-symmetry we are trying to preserve. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:45 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug20.160732.16969@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <808374177.23585@pinetree.microserve.com> <412pbl$b3k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 16:07:32 GMT Lines: 30 In article <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> ranecurl@engin.umich.edu (Rane Curl) writes: >(Let me try...) No. Even if the characteristic impedance of the antenna alone >and coax are identical, a balun is needed. My explanation is as follows: > >The rf current in a well-shielded coax flows on the inside opposing >surfaces of the central conductor and shield, and are equal and opposite. >Where the coax is joined to the antenna, the inner conductor sees one >arm of the (say) dipole, while the inside of the shield current flows out >upon the other arm of the dipole *and the shield exterior*. In effect, >that arm of the dipole includes the antenna proper and the exterior of >the coax, so is much longer than the other arm of the dipole, and is >being fed at some indefinite point. The result will be an impedance >mismatch. Which is why the old wives' tale about changing feedline length will change VSWR hangs on with us. It really can. Changing the feeder length is effectively changing the length of one leg of the antenna. That can't help but change the load impedance, which in turn changes the VSWR. And it's also the source of advice to use a feeder that's a multiple of 1/2-wave, because the end of a 1/2-wave wire will present a very high impedance, thus not loading that leg of the antenna and virtually disappearing in regard to antenna resonance and feedpoint impedance. Ain't science wonderful? Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 20 Aug 1995 18:11:06 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 25 Message-ID: <417trq$f22@news.azstarnet.com> References: <808374177.23585@pinetree.microserve.com> <412pbl$b3k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <1995Aug20.160732.16969@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup57.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) wrote: [stuff deleted] > >Which is why the old wives' tale about changing feedline length will >change VSWR hangs on with us. It really can. Changing the feeder length >is effectively changing the length of one leg of the antenna. That >can't help but change the load impedance, which in turn changes the >VSWR. And it's also the source of advice to use a feeder that's a >multiple of 1/2-wave, because the end of a 1/2-wave wire will present >a very high impedance, thus not loading that leg of the antenna and >virtually disappearing in regard to antenna resonance and feedpoint >impedance. Ain't science wonderful? > Gary: You make some good points, however, one question: How do you arrive at the conclusion that the end of the half-wavelength wire will present a a very high impedance? Regards, Wes --N7WS From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:47 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 20 Aug 1995 15:37:35 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 46 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4182tv$meu@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <413iou$bsp@parsifal.nando.net> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Don wrote: >If we remove the antenna from the end of the feedline, and replace it >with a resistor with a value the same as the antenna feed impedance, >then key the transmitter - How much RF current will flow on the >outside of the feedline? - None. The resistor will have the same >voltage at the feedpoint as the antenna if this voltage theory is >correct, and the same currents should flow. My conclusion is that >the voltage at the feedpoint is not the cause of any RF on the >shield. It's correct that little or no current flows on the outside of the shield with the resistor, Don. The reason is the resistor has a very high impedance from both terminals to ground for parallel currents. The antenna does not. As a matter of fact the floating resistor is a good example of what the antenna looks like when a good choke balun is used! Consider measuring impedance of a single leg of the antenna to ground (or even another piece of wire that's floating from ground). It will have some moderate to low value of impedance. But if the impedance of one leg of the resistor is measured against ground (the other detached) the impedance will be nearly infinite. With the floating resistor the voltage at the load end of the transmission line has nothing to push against except the other terminal of the same feedline. The current in the feedline is thus totally balanced and exactly out of phase. The balanced out of phase currents cause any radiation from the coaxial cable (or even a balanced line) to cancel, and in the coaxial line all currents move to the inside of the shield (assuming a line without defects). An ungrounded very small loop antenna has this effect also, but larger loops do not. An elementary example of a perfectly balanced large antenna *must* use two resistors in series with the common resistor junction connected to ground. The feedline connects across the entire pair. If you analyze this circuit you will see how certain lengths of feedline aggravate or reduce the parallel currents. At a 1/4 wave (outside of line VP length, not the internal slower VP rate) if the source end of the line is grounded parallel current and the upsetting of the feedpoint impedance will be minimized. At 1/2 wl (source end grounded) the unwanted effect is maximized. 73 Tom W8JI From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:49 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 20 Aug 1995 18:02:50 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 217 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <418bea$p4o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4182tv$meu@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Phew, this gets long as things diverge from the original subject. It would be nice to debate one point at a time. :-) I wrote: >Absolutely.....NOT!!!! There certainly is voltage if there is any power >at all! If the antenna is perfectly balanced 50 ohms with 1500 watts >there is 274 volts RMS across the terminals or 387 volts peak. Half of >this voltage appears from the terminal connected to the shield and >earth. The voltage potential exists for appreciable current to flow in a >matched dipole system! If the antenna is not perfectly symmetrical >this condition can become either worse or better. Gary wrote: :Well, you can't say that half the voltage appears between shield and :Earth. That would assume that Earth is at a potential of zero volts, : I was speaking of a perfectly balanced dipole over plain. Gary is correct, it doesn't need to be earth, it could have been any neutral electrical mass. I thought "perfectly balanced" was the minimum statement necessary without an elaborate essay. ;-) :And it doesn't matter All we can say about the potential at the :antenna feedpoint is that the differential between inner and outer is :274 volts under the conditions stated. What the potential is between :either the inner or the outer and Earth is an unknown without further :information. In particular, we need to know things like the feeder :length, antenna height above Earth, and antenna symmetry with :respect to Earth before we can say much of anything at all about the :potential between either conductor of the coax at the feedpoint and :Earth. Remember I stated a *perfectly balanced antenna with a feedpoint impedance of 50 ohms*. The feedline length can not change this voltage. To do so it would have to "pull" the antenna out of balance and spoil the qualification. If the height spoils the impedance value specified it also spoils the qualification. That's the beauty and the problem with a simple specific example. But Gary is correct, in a real world system the height above ground and the impedance presented to the antenna for parallel currents can and will change this qualification. It can make it either worse or better. Next I said > >The balun's job is not to balance the antenna. The job is to balance >the current in the feedline (yes even open wire) so it does not have >parallel radiating currents. Adding a properly designed balun at the >antenna terminals will stop feedline radiation with any twin wire or >coaxial line. Gary said :Since all forward transmission line currents in coax are *inside* the :outer shielding, as you stated above, it is *impossible* for them to :radiate regardless of whether the currents flowing in the inner and :outer are balanced. The skin depth of the outer shielding prevents :that by forming a Faraday cage to any radiation field. This is different :from the open wire case where unbalanced currents can generate :uncancelled radiation fields free to escape into space. Sorry Gary. All transmission line currents are in the line. But unbalanced unwanted parallel currents are on the outside of the shield and can appear on both conductors of the open wire line. Even with the best shield in the world coax will radiate from unequal currents on the center conductor and the shield. My statement is correct, the thing that stops coax from radiating is having equal and 180 degree out of phase currents on the center conductor and the braid. When that occurs ALL RF current is confined to the inner side of the braid and the outer side of the center conductor if the conductors are thicker than the skin depth at that frequency. The only reason why induced field (or coupled currents) make a transmission line of any type radiate is because they modify the balanced out of phase condition. Just try to site one example of a two wire transmission that can radiate without having unbalanced or non-180 degree shifted currents in the conductors. >The fact the antenna is not symmetrical has nothing to do with this >problem. It is a feedline to the feedline's termination problem. :Absolutely not! Steve's at least half correct. It is unbalanced induction :fields picked up by the coax shield that causes radiation currents to :flow on the coax outside. No, currents can flow on the outside even with a perfectly symmetrical antenna. A dipole is a prime example. :That *requires* an asymmetry in the installation of the antenna and :coax. It's this lack of *physical* balance that permits uncancelled :induction field induced currents to flow on the coax shield's outer :surface. Asymmetry can cause unbalanced currents in a balanced feeder, but asymmetry can reduce or increase the problem with coax. For example, a ground plane it totally non-symmetrical but unwanted currents on the outside of the coax are minimized. If the center conductor of the same ground plane were connected to the ground, and the shield to the radiator, the problem would be aggravated by the non-symmetry of the antenna. :I say he's half correct because an electrical imbalance can do a :similar thing. So-called voltage baluns and current baluns will :*not* do this, unless Hmmm. Describe a current balun that won't do this. :to the coax, this will not stop induction field imbalances :from causing radiation currents to flow on the coax outside. Ahh but it can. If the coax is broken into a non-resonant or electrically short length by choke baluns it becomes invisible or partially invisible to the radiation fields and subsequent induced currents. The effect would be the same as breaking up guylines in the field of a radiator. :Physical balance is the key factor. If you don't have that, no balun :can correct the problem of a "hot" feeder. That is absolutely untrue. Any properly designed choke balun will insure equal and out of phase feedline currents. That will stop feedline radiation with all types of antennas, physically balanced or otherwise. The prime example of this is a coaxial cable with the center conductor extended 1/4 wl past the shield. If a properly designed and adequate impedance current or choke balun is installed exactly 1/4 wl back from the open termination of the shield, the coax will not radiate on the source end of the coax. As a matter of fact the balun can be moved closer or farther from the shield termination and the same effect would occur. That is a highly non-symmetrical antenna and a choke or current balun will stop feeder radiation in it, as it will any antenna I can think of....Windom included, unless a separate balance problem exists at the source. :However, a shield *can*. It should be obvious that a balun is :useless for an asymmetric antenna like a coax fed vertical monopole. :There is nothing balanced about the antenna to "bal" to. That's not true. I use choke baluns on vertical receiving antennas to prevent unwanted signals from being conducted or picked-up and conducted to the ground system. These signals can pump the less than perfect ground up and down at a different amount than the radiator and appear as normal feedline currents to the receiver. A choke balun will also allow an off center fed antenna to be fed with coax or balanced line without the line radiating. The military frequently does this with ground independent antennas, and so do companies like Cushcraft (R5 and 7). Baluns absolutely do work and have a purpose with asymmetrical antennas. Then I wrote... >Hi Don, > >Sorry, but I disagree with this totally: Don wrote: >>When the antenna is a resonant dipole, the feedpoint is an RF >>voltage minimum and a current maximum. Therefore we could >>ground the feedpoint of the dipole. This in fact is what is done in >>many beam antennas, the driven element is fastened to the boom, >>and the boom is often grounded as well. The point is that there >>should be zero volts RF across the feedpoint of a resonant dipole. > I wrote: >The key word is minimum, but the minimum can not be zero. If it is >zero the power is zero. There is a finite amount of current, and a finite >amount of voltage. If the SWR is 1:1 with a 50 ohm feedline, the >voltage to current ratio must provide a 50 ohm impedance (this is >similar to the source impedance I talked about in conjugate mating a >PA stage to the load). So it boils down to E/I must equal 50 for a 1:1 >SWR in a 50 ohm system. Whether it's 50 volts and one amp, or 5000 >volts and 100 amps depends on the power level, but the ratio stays >the same. Gary wrote: :No, the geometric center of a resonant dipole *really* is a zero voltage :point. That's why we can use plumber's delight construction techniques :and not have current flows down the boom. The reason we get a 50+j0 :ohms feedpoint is that we *offset* our connections to the dipole from :the exact geometric center. First of all, a dipole has two insulated poles. If the statement "the voltage at the center of a dipole is zero" is true, I should be able to construct a dipole that has zero impedance at the feedpoint. Applying any power to this dipole would take an infinite amount of source current, even at a few milliwatts. Has *anyone* out there ever had a *dipole* with a zero ohm feedpoint? The case of a shunt fed radiator is entirely different. If it is gamma matched it will not require a balun, but if is delta or Tee matched it still will require a balun. :We do that in a lot of different ways, from a Gamma Match Of :course at any frequency except exact resonance, the geometric center :is no longer precisely zero volts, but it remains very low over a fairly :reasonable bandwidth, so plumber's delight construction remains :viable over an amateur band. If the center approached 50 ohms, then :much of the current would flow down the boom instead of out the :elements and we'd have a lousy F/B ratio. Actually if it is a truly balanced element it remains balanced independent of frequency. Being non-resonant or off-resonance has nothing to do with the balance. The impedance in the center of a shunt fed symmetrical unbroken element is near zero ohms only because the element is shorted. If the element is 1/8 wave, or two wl, or anything else the center impedance remains the same because it is electrically shorted there! The gamma or tee impedance is another matter. But remember, this closed element is not a dipole, di meaning two. I believe a more correct term would be a "unipole" or monopole. And there is no argument that feeding such a gamma matched element eliminates or substantially reduces the need for a balun. 73 Tom W8JI From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:50 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!iglou!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <808374177.23585@pinetree.microserve.com> <412pbl$b3k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 01:37:40 GMT Lines: 50 Rane Curl (ranecurl@engin.umich.edu) wrote: : In article <412pbl$b3k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, W5GIE wrote: : > : > : >Now that someone brought it up..... : >Does anyone know if the need for a balun is related to *mismatch*. For : >example, : >if I have a balanced antenna that presents a resistive match(say 73 ohms) : >to the characteristic impedance of an unbalanced line(say 73 ohms), do I : >need a balun. : > : >Just wondering-- : > : >Wayne : >W5GIE operating CW from Redlands, CA : >(No disclaimer required) : (Let me try...) No. Even if the characteristic impedance of the antenna alone : and coax are identical, a balun is needed. My explanation is as follows: : The rf current in a well-shielded coax flows on the inside opposing : surfaces of the central conductor and shield, and are equal and opposite. : Where the coax is joined to the antenna, the inner conductor sees one : arm of the (say) dipole, while the inside of the shield current flows out : upon the other arm of the dipole *and the shield exterior*. In effect, : that arm of the dipole includes the antenna proper and the exterior of : the coax, so is much longer than the other arm of the dipole, and is : being fed at some indefinite point. The result will be an impedance : mismatch. : The effect is similar to what would happen if you fed the dipole with : a ladder line (which would be balanced), but also hung a long wire : off at right angles to the junction point of one side of the ladder : line and the antenna. There would then be an impedance mismatch. : Rane L. Curl N8REG : Easy problem to cure. AT the antenna feed point, you simply strip the coax back as you normally would and solder the braid to one side of the dipole but before doing this, twist the braid. Now the RF can't figure out which is the inside and which is the outside of the braid. Great Wisdom has spoken -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!usenet From: DB Wilhelm Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 19 Aug 1995 02:37:18 GMT Organization: News & Observer Public Access Lines: 88 Message-ID: <413iou$bsp@parsifal.nando.net> References: <40u96h$9sl@parsifal.nando.net> <40ueo0$5ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grail405.nando.net w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) wrote: > > Hi Don, > > Sorry, but I disagree with this totally: > > >When the antenna is a resonant dipole, the feedpoint is an RF voltage > >minimum and a current maximum. Therefore we could ground the feedpoint > >of the dipole. This in fact is what is done in many beam antennas, > >the driven element is fastened to the boom, and the boom is often > >grounded as well. The point is that there should be zero volts RF > >across the feedpoint of a resonant dipole. > > The key word is minimum, but the minimum can not be zero. If it is zero > the power is zero. There is a finite amount of current, and a finite > amount of voltage. If the SWR is 1:1 with a 50 ohm feedline, the voltage > to current ratio must provide a 50 ohm impedance (this is similar to the > source impedance I talked about in conjugate mating a PA stage to the > load). So it boils down to E/I must equal 50 for a 1:1 SWR in a 50 ohm > system. Whether it's 50 volts and one amp, or 5000 volts and 100 amps > depends on the power level, but the ratio stays the same. > > I agree with Wes, the proper place is at the feedpoint. If the feedline is > coupled to the antenna because of poor dress I would add a second choke > balun where the feedline leaves the area of the antenna at a non-resonate > length point. The top one would insure the currents were balanced at the > antenna, the lower one would insure the feedline was not resonate and > coupled heavily to the antenna. > > 73 Tom I should not have said voltage minimum, but zero volts. Look at the voltage distrubution of an antenna that is an odd number of half waves long, and the voltage will be going through a zero crossing at the midpoint. The current will also be a maximum here, since the current at the ends of an antenna will be forced to be zero. The voltage at the midpoint of an antenna will be at zero volts with respect to the RF voltages present over the entire antenna, and this center point can even be grounded with no change in the radiation or feed requirements assuming we could get an actual ground point up at the antenna location. Since the voltage is zero, the voltage at the feedpoint cannot be the cause of RF current flowing on the coax shield. This is the main point I am making. If we remove the antenna from the end of the feedline, and replace it with a resistor with a value the same as the antenna feed impedance, then key the transmitter - How much RF current will flow on the outside of the feedline? - None. The resistor will have the same voltage at the feedpoint as the antenna if this voltage theory is correct, and the same currents should flow. My conclusion is that the voltage at the feedpoint is not the cause of any RF on the shield. After doing a better examination of the antenna system, my hypothesis is that when we get RF on the shield, the antenna feedpoint is not a purely resistive load, and that this condition can and will cause RF current flow on the feedline. If I shorten an antenna and look at the current distribution, I find that the current in the center of the antenna is reduced, and in fact is folded back onto the feedline. When the feedline is a parallel conductor type, this folded back current results in out of phase currents on the upper portion of the feedline, and then looking at the voltage distribution, I find that the point where the zero crossing occurs is at some distance away from the antenna. This is just fine, and the parallel line is quite happy with this arrangement, the current is still equal and opposite on the two feedline legs. Now if I try the same thing with coax, I have difficulty because of the inside of the shield vs. the outside of the shield situation. The folded back current will try to flow on the outside of the shield, because it is now effectively a part of the antenna, and there is no opposing current to balance it. I'm hesitant to say where it will go from this point, but the system will get quite confused by this extra current. I will extend my hypothesis with the observations that we do not often feed our antennas with a transmission line which has the same impedance as the dipole, and if I prune the antenna for a 1:1 VSWR I will usually do this by shortening it. I believe that this shortening may be the root cause of RF on the outside of the coax. At least it is food for thought. 73 de W3FPR Don From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:53 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug21.141838.20529@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <808374177.23585@pinetree.microserve.com> <412pbl$b3k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <1995Aug20.160732.16969@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <417trq$f22@news.azstarnet.com> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 14:18:38 GMT Lines: 22 In article <417trq$f22@news.azstarnet.com> Wes Stewart writes: >How do you arrive at the conclusion that the end of the half-wavelength >wire will present a very high impedance? Simple, a halfwave resonant wire has voltage maximums and current minimums at each end. From Ohm's Law, R=E/I, so when E is high, and I is low, R is large. The coax isn't acting as a transmission line here, where a halfwave would simply repeat the impedance at one end to the other end. Its outside is just acting as an end fed wire element. The impedance of such an end fed wire is typically 2,000-3,000 ohms. Meanwhile, the impedance of the end fed quarterwave that is one leg of the dipole is on the order of 25-35 ohms. So the currents will divide in inverse proportion to the impedances, and roughly 10 times as much current will flow in the antenna leg as on the coax shield, which is what we want the current to do. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!qns3.qns.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!bubba.ucc.okstate.edu!gcouger From: gcouger@jsun.agen.okstate.edu (Gordon Couger) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 21 Aug 1995 19:06:28 GMT Organization: Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering Lines: 25 Message-ID: <41alfk$lkn@bubba.ucc.okstate.edu> References: <808374177.23585@pinetree.microserve.com> <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <1995Aug20.160732.16969@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <808985053.15710@pinetree.microserve.com> Reply-To: Gordon Couger = NNTP-Posting-Host: jsun.agen.okstate.edu In article <808985053.15710@pinetree.microserve.com>, WB3U wrote: > gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) wrote: > >>And it's also the source of advice to use a feeder that's a multiple >>of 1/2-wave, because the end of a 1/2-wave wire will present a very >>high impedance, thus not loading that leg of the antenna and >>virtually disappearing in regard to antenna resonance and feedpoint >>impedance. Ain't science wonderful? > >Not to nit pick (well, maybe a little), I thought this was the result >of the belief that the impedance at the feedpoint of the antenna will >be repeated at the transmitter. Thus, the VSWR reading will be that >of the antenna, not the (unknown) result of the antenna plus feedline. > Wile picking nits, it is unlikley that the velocity factor of the outside of the sheild of the coax is the same as the velocity factor of the coax. so if you had a electrical half wave of 60% velocity coax and the V factor of the outside of the sheild was 95% the electrical length of the sheild would be .32 wave lengths giving it somthing like 200 + 150i impeadance. This is off the top of my head but it's not too far off. Gordon Couger - 624 Cheyenne, Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu 405-624-2855 evenings I do not speak for my employer From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet From: host name@earthlink.net (Your real Name) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Curtain Antenna Handbook Date: 19 Aug 1995 23:50:10 GMT Organization: Your Organization Lines: 11 Message-ID: <415tbi$8aj@mars.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jlb.earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.14 Hi, I am interesred in reading about the old curtain type antennas with screen reflectors. The main book I am looking for is the "Antenna Engineering Handbook" by Jasik, first edition, copywrite 1961. If you have a copy for sale please e-mail me direct. Also if you have any textbooks from that era pertaining to curtain arrays with screen reflectors please let me know. Thanks, Joe AA6WG jlb@earthlink.net From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.micron.net!news From: bcase@micron.net (Brian Case) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Delcom Tranciever Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 01:58:41 GMT Organization: Micron Internet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <413cmv$393@mis02.micron.net> Reply-To: bcase@micron.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs003p11.nam.micron.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 I have a Delcom 960Air Aviation Tranciever that need repaired. Does anyone know where I can find a schematic for this radio, or where to send it to have it repaired. Thanks Brian Please email responses to bcase@micron.net ------------------------------------------------------------ Brian bcase@micron.net ------------------------------------------------------------ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:56 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hmaxwell From: hmaxwell@netcom.com (Helene Maxwell) Subject: dual band glass mount question Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 20:09:59 GMT Lines: 12 Sender: hmaxwell@netcom17.netcom.com I recently installed a dual band (2/440) rig in my car with an MFJ glass mount antenna, fed through a diamond duplexer. The first day or so it worked OK, but now I'm noticing some static interference when receiving (that goes away with the car engine shut off). The antenna connections are all tight. It seems odd that I wouldn't have had this problem right away. I'm relatively new to this--is the glass mount a bad idea to begin with, and are there supressors available that I can get to fix any interference problem the ignition system in the car may be causing? Any thoughts and assistance greatly appreciated! From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!itnews.sc.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: 20 Aug 1995 17:41:03 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 43 Distribution: world Message-ID: <417s3f$o35@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <40u1ff$6m7@chnews.ch.intel.com> <4160ki$a8u@mars.efn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <4160ki$a8u@mars.efn.org>, Dick Hughes wrote: >Hey guys, could we talk about our experiences with the SGC tuner? I >would really like to hear about it. Gladly, The tuner is the SG-230 and the SGC antenna is the SG-303. I don't know much about the antenna except it doesn't work well on 75m. The SG-230 antenna tuner is a pi network tuner, switched cap banks to ground and switched series inductors. The switching is done by a microcontroller which initializes all the caps out of the circuit, i.e. open circuit, and all the coils out of the circuit, i.e. short circuit. The beauty of that is if the antenna has a low SWR at the present frequency of operation, the SG-230 puts nothing but a near-short between the input and the output. It's a less lossy design than the average MFJ T network where one must have two capacitors and an inductance in the circuit at all times (or else switch to direct coax if that function exists). For 75m mobile, one usually needs a coil at the base of a bugcatcher in addition to the center loading coil and taps must be changed to maintain a low SWR over the entire band. I use a homemade bugcatcher on 75m with no coil at the base because the SGC-230 performs the function of the base coil. In addition, I can cover the entire 80m- 75m band without switching taps. The same is true for 40m which is a single tap on my bugcatcher. The SGC-230 allows me to tune the entire 40m band without changing taps. My favorite setup is a 17m resonant whip (13 ft, no coils) which acts as a non-resonant monopole on all other 20m-10m bands. It outperforms my bugcatcher on 17m-10m and one must have an eagle eye to detect any difference on 20m. IMO this setup can't be beat for automatic multi-band mobile operation 20m-10m. Much to my surprise, the SG-230 and the 13 ft whip is only one 'S' unit down from my bugcatcher on 40m. That one 'S' unit usually doesn't make an appreciable difference. I never have to worry about transmission line losses. The SG-230 has no coax connector on the output, just a high voltage terminal which must be connected directly to the antenna with a short as possible piece of large wire, like the center conductor of RG-8. Where the SG-230 really makes sense is maritime mobile. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 02:22:17 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <40u1ff$6m7@chnews.ch.intel.com> <4160ki$a8u@mars.efn.org> <417s3f$o35@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com X-To: writes: >I never have to worry about transmission line losses. Assuming using an antenna resonant for the band in use......How much loss is there in the 15ft of coax from rig to antenna if the tuner wasn't at the antenna? From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.wimsey.com!fonorola!news.capitalnet.com!user68 From: walkerc@capitalnet.com (chris walker) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: FAQ Date: 18 Aug 1995 01:57:25 GMT Organization: Capitalnet Lines: 6 Message-ID: <410s25$403@news.capitalnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user68.capitalnet.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3 Hi there, I was wondering if someone could possibly post or send me the FAQ for this group. Thanks a lot. walkerc@capitalnet.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: fiscon@ix.netcom.com (William Rice) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: FS:MILITARY ANTENNAS Date: 18 Aug 1995 23:51:38 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 5 Distribution: world Message-ID: <41392a$6po@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-atl6-14.ix.netcom.com For Sale: Military AT1011 32foot whip standard with most military hf sets $100 AS2259 NVIS Near Verical Incidence Skywave antanna. New condition made by hygain. $125 David Panek email or call 404-331-7211 From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:58:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!itnews.sc.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: G5RV Dimensions Date: 19 Aug 1995 18:53:47 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <415bvr$rt@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <40ptk9$p8p@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <412e1q$lk6@chnews.ch.intel.com> <808764433.24853@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <808764433.24853@pinetree.microserve.com>, WB3U wrote: >Cecil, how is the radiation pattern of a non-resonant antenna >determined? I've never seen this published, but there's obviously a >way to do it. Hi Jack, above 10/8 wavelength which is maximum broadside gain, the pattern of a centerfed dipole changes to multilobed. Thus a 20m 10/8 dipole has a cloverleaf pattern on 17m with very little broadside radiation. A 10/8 wavelength on 20m is approximately a 12/8 wavelength on 17m. As the frequency is increased (with the same dipole) the four major lobes gradually move toward the ends of the antenna. Actually, I did it the easy way. I ran the patterns on ELNEC after reading the Antennas West tech note on the 102 ft G5RV. That tech note gives the radiation patterns for 102 ft centerfed dipoles. If anyone is expecting broadside radiation on 20m or higher out of their 102 ft G5RV, he/she will be sadly disappointed. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:00 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet From: davlat@cix.compulink.co.uk ("David Latimer") Subject: Re: G5RV references? Message-ID: Organization: Compulink Information eXchange References: Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 21:48:35 GMT X-News-Software: Ameol Lines: 8 I can help, Bill, with copies of the more recent Rad Comm references as I will have them around myself. Mine don't go back to 1958 though. If you consider it necessary I will ring the RSGB and check out if they can provide a copy but have not found them great for service. Let me have you address in a reply and I will get the other things sorted. 73 David Latimer G3VUS davlat@cix.compulink.co.uk From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: horrock@aol.com (Horrock) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 19 Aug 1995 16:16:52 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 2 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <415grk$303@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <410ni2$iuo@fido.asd.sgi.com> Reply-To: horrock@aol.com (Horrock) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Thanks Bob - We all await your report! 73 From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:01 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!voder!nsc!news From: "Al Koblinski (W7XA)" Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: news@nsc.nsc.com (netnews maintenance) Nntp-Posting-Host: akoblinski.nsc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> <808608388.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 22:11:38 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:DDH9Kz.LqM@iglou.com Lines: 14 Obviously you have missed the point! If the capture angle is lower than the angle of incident, it will be less sensitive than an antenna at the ideal angle. Secondly, the quad already has a gain advantage over a single element, or in this a vertical dipole of some sort. Thirdly, the proof is in the performance and working Europeans, Africans, and the middle East long path and getting very favorable reports against dipoles and other GP verticals with lots of radials at least suggests that the antenna works on 40 and 80. Japan on 160M with 100 watts ain't bad either. This antenna at my QTH works well. Your results were obviously different. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!news.netins.net!usenet From: crcarlson@netins.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 19 Aug 1995 02:21:59 GMT Organization: INS Information Services, Des Moines, IA USA Lines: 22 Message-ID: <00995139.1E130C08@netins.net> Reply-To: crcarlson@netins.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ins.netins.net I'm the guy that suggested the $50 worth of antenna wire. Boy I gotta be more careful with my figures!!! But as the VE6 pointed out on 15 mtrs I wasn't to far off. The whole question about whether or not GAP verticals are "good" or not is somewhat futile. (It doesn't stop ME from discussing it, of course! 8-) ) As I said in my previous post I once used a vertical that couldn't have been even 20% efficient but mananged to pump enough power to get out well with rave reports. When I lived in North Dakota I ran 3, count'em, 3 watts to a 60 piece of wire up maybe 25 feet. For two years I had the most fun since I got my ticket. BUT the two years were 1979-81. When you could, as one gent put it, work the world on coat hangers and grocery carts. The GAP that I'm running is mechanically very sound. In some parts of the world this fact alone might make it a "good" antenna. (Like northern Iowa in a killer ice storm). It requires very little real estate. It has one coax line going into the shack. It has required very little in the way of maintenance. And it actually "works". IF proof is in the performance I would say that on 40 and 20 meters mine has worked quite well. I have put some pretty cool DX into the log just in the last 2 or 3 years when the 'spots were OK, not necessarily great. But I bought mine when the were a lot cheaper. And you can still build a pretty good wire antenna, maybe not a rhombic, for about $50. So I like my GAP and have had good luck with it. And would recommend it, but would counsel new hams to look at less expensive antennas. Loops, dipoles, even Zepps can also work well on less $$$$$. Thats my $.04 worth. (The cost of my opinion went up with the cost of copper. ;-) ) 73 de WB0FDJ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!interramp.com!usenet From: Grant Youngman Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: GAP Verticals Date: 21 Aug 1995 20:42:54 GMT Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link Lines: 37 Message-ID: <41ar4e$nq3@usenet1.interramp.com> References: <40f6ta$1le@news.xs4all.nl> <40s2sd$omi@mother.usf.edu> <808608388.24646@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: usenet4.interramp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b6 (Windows; I; 16bit) jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) wrote: > >>Well, when you look at the Challanger, those (radial) wires are >>really part of the lower half of the radiator and they lay on the >>ground. Am I correct? Is this weird or what? In other words, if this >>is a center fed, elevated feed antenna, then the lower half consists >>of some wire which lays on the ground. I think the whole deal here is >>just a way to get a low swr with little consideration given to >>radiation efficiency. > >Everyone is able to visually distinguish a dummy load from a radiating >element. It's not so easy though when a manufacturer combines the two >and calls it an antenna. :) I suppose then that a full size quarter wave vertical, base fed, is REALLY in trouble since the WHOLE lower half is just laying there on the ground :-) Actually, the Challenger seems to be a respectable radiator on the bands above 80 meters. (You have to ignore all the malarky about 6 and 2 meters I think, unless you're trying to work the shuttle when its directly overhead). On 80, well, the dummy load analogy is pretty darn close. Now, when I say respectable, I don't mean relative to wide spaced 10 element full sized beams at a wavelength up over perfect earth -- but certainly respectable relative to a lot of other compromise antennas. (For those of us who can't put beams or dipoles at 100' -- comparisons to ultimate antennas don't make a lot of sense). On 80 meters, these things use a resonated coax stub to handle the matching. They use 1KV mica caps up in the TOP of the antenna, and although advertised to handle the legal limit below 2:1 SWR, those little bitty caps can't hack it and keep sizzling away into oblivion. I'm currently looking for a better mouse trap to put up in my "nothing over 30' " neighborhood. (I've tried the Butternut, and it has never seemed to be any better in any practical sense -- though it has its supporters). Grant/NQ5T From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:04 1995 From: WLHamaty@msn.com (Luke Hamaty) Subject: Re: Grounding from the 2nd floor Date: 18 Aug 95 23:50:32 -0700 References: <40r947$qnc@fountain.mindlink.net> <40u8fe$k3c@express.ior.com> Message-ID: <00001fea+00000cb2@msn.com> Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.msn.com!msn.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Organization: The Microsoft Network (MSN) Lines: 9 I also have used a "coax" ground. They really work. It was a better ground from the second floor than my 1st floor ground of a 6-ft wire to an iron water pipe where it came into the house. Use any length of junk RG-8, doesn't matter how cruddy. I've heard a different theory of operation, but it doesn't matter. The third-wire outlet ground isn't really very good at 60-Hz and is worse than useless at RF --- it will very effectively send your spare RF everywhere it shouldn't go! From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!caen!night.primate.wisc.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: Kevin Shea Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Lindenbladt Antenna Date: 19 Aug 1995 01:13:54 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison Lines: 45 Message-ID: <413dsi$f2i@news.doit.wisc.edu> References: <411ucq$1hj@ren.netconnect.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: f182-051.net.wisc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b4 (Windows; I; 16bit) To: vk3kvw@apollo.moenet.com.au Michel van der Walle wrote: >I am currently looking for a suitable antenna to receive the APT signals >from the LEO weather birds. > >I am currently using a turnstile with ground plane and this antenna is >performing quit well. > >However it suffers from fading during some passes. Not sure why. >Somewhere in my endevours to find the ultimate "non tracking" antenna I >came across the name "Lindenbladt" > .. > >Has anybody out there in Amateur Land ever heard of this antenna and if >so have any construction details. > >I would be very interested and gratefull for any details. > >Warmest Regards from "Down Under" > >Michel van der Walle VK3KVW. > Michael, You can find info on the Lindenblad in Martin Davidoff's boook _The Satellite Experimenter's Handbook_ Altho more difficult (perhaps) to build the quadriflar helix antenna is a better antenna, it is also described in Davidoff's book. There may however be a mistake in one of the pictures in that article. Good Luck, Kevin -- **************************************** * Kevin G. Shea N9JKP * * 4460 Dahmen Pass * * Cross Plains, WI 53528 USA * * 608.789.4326,voice; 608.798.1747,fax * **************************************** From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:05 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab376 From: ab376@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mike Ligeza) Subject: Loop Information?? Message-ID: Sender: ab376@freenet3.carleton.ca (Mike Ligeza) Reply-To: ab376@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mike Ligeza) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:51:33 GMT Lines: 18 I live in a condo, with the usual antenna restrictions, and as a result have been thinking about the MFJ or AEA loops advertised in all the magazines. However, one of the questions that occurs to me, is; does the loop consist of a single solid unit? Access to my attic, which is where I am thinking about locating a loop, is through an access that is less than the 39 or 36 inch diameter of the loops as advertised. If the loop doesn't come apart, then how do I get it through the access trap door into my attic?? Mike -- ############################################################################## Mike Ligeza Snr.- VE3UIL Ottawa, Ontario Canada From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: MUENZLERK@uthscsa.edu (Muenzler, Kevin) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.space Subject: Mail Failure - Apology Date: 18 Aug 1995 15:25:35 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Lines: 5 Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu Message-ID: <01HU81X7EAAA004FRS@uthscsa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13097 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:16026 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9052 rec.radio.amateur.policy:29041 rec.radio.amateur.space:4627 My apologies to the list(s). We had a system failure on our end. It has been corrected. Kevin, WB5RUE muenzlerk@uthscsa.edu From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:08 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!ftpbox!mothost!lmpsbbs!NewsWatcher!user From: csle87@email.mot.com (Karl Beckman) Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Organization: Motorola LMPS - Pvt Data Sys Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:12:46 -0400 Message-ID: References: <56427528-950815195520@racebbs.com> <808635159.524@pinetree.microserve.com> Sender: news@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com (LMPSBBS News Account) Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.39.1.10 Lines: 92 In article <808635159.524@pinetree.microserve.com>, jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > Jim, > > I read your post with the correction (2.25 miles) but there is still a > considerable difference in our results. After analyzing your > procedure with mine, I have pinpointed the area causing the > discrepancy. > > My calculation starts with EIRP and deducts free space loss over the > path length in order to derive the signal level reaching the receive > antenna. Then, I add the receive antenna gain and deduct line loss, > if any. My numbers up to this point are similar to yours. Next, I > compare the signal level input to the receiver against ENI (Equivalent > Noise Input), which is calculated from noise figure. The result is > the Carrier to Noise Ratio. Surely you don't claim to have an unobstructed path just because you have line of sight. At the minimum you must still consider Fresnel losses, which are 6 dB at line of sight. Further, if you assume forests in the Pacific Northwest, the trees are >150 feet tall. 50 ft towers would be woefully inadequate, and you most certainly cannot use any "free space" generalizations. > > The reason our results are so different is that ENI for a 3.5 dB noise > figure (2.0 dB NF + 1.5 dB loss you suggested) is -127.49 dBm. In my > calculations, each dB of signal level above that figure is 1 dB of > Carrier to Noise Ratio. > > To clear up this issue, perhaps you could help me with the following > questions: > > 1. Is an ENI of -127.49 dBm realistic at this frequency, or is > ambient noise considered to be above this level? I *did* check the > ARRL Handbook for common 220 MHz noise figures (< 1 dB). As a result, > I assumed that any differences in ambient noise between 220 MHz and > microwave would not be significant. In some recent testing (last two years), the measured 220 MHz noise levels at a great number of sites in suburban and rural areas came in between -101 and -86 dBm. For a reasonably SOTA receiver, front end noise level is certainly NOT the limiting factor at frequencies below 1 GHz. > > 2. How did you arrive at a minimum acceptable signal level of -70 > dBm? Assume that you were to use standard V.32 9600 bps telephone line modems. They require a S/N of 32 to 39 dB, depending on manufacturer. Obviously slower baud rates can operate at lower S/N ratios, but the equipment gets really bulky, slow, and costly when you are decoding below the noise floor. > > 3. What Carrier to Noise Ratio would -70 dBm represent, and does it > include signal bandwidth as a modifying factor? There is no relationship to modify. The -70 dBm number is the strength of the signal, but says nothing about the local RF noise level, noise in the receiver, the modulation/demodulation process, or any other part of the working environment. > > 4. I was surprised to see that you were considering path fade in the > equation. Are you sure this is required for line of sight paths of > less than 50 miles at 220 MHz? Path fade is only important if you want the system to talk more than once, and preferably in some repeatable fashion. Just warn him to sell his backers while the path is 30 dB hot, pay himself three years of huge salary in advance, and skip town. > > Thanks for your help with this. If I have made an error, now is the > time to find out. I absolutely do not want to mislead the gentleman > who asked the original questions on this topic. > > 73, > > Jack WB3U -- Karl Beckman, P.E. WA8NVW < The value of field experience > Motorola LMPS - Fixed Data < is directly proportional to the > < price of the equipment damaged. > If you agree with the opinions expressed, they're mine. If not, who cares? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - By sending unsolicited commercially-oriented e-mail to this address, the sender agrees to pay a $100 fee to the recipient for proofreading service. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 21:33:13 GMT Lines: 97 Message-ID: <808782458.29003@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <56427528-950815195520@racebbs.com> <808635159.524@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 csle87@email.mot.com (Karl Beckman) wrote: >jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: >Surely you don't claim to have an unobstructed path just because you >have line of sight. At the minimum you must still consider Fresnel >losses, which are 6 dB at line of sight. Further, if you assume >forests in the Pacific Northwest, the trees are >150 feet tall. 50 >ft towers would be woefully inadequate, and you most certainly cannot >use any "free space" generalizations. Thanks for the info on Fresnel loss. At this frequency it isn't possible to achieve the 0.6 Fresnel clearance I'm accustomed to and I didn't have an approximation to use. What degree of loss would you anticipate per mile for heavy foliage of the type found in the Northwest, or are you saying that the signal should be entirely clear of this? The original question (and my answer) did state that line-of-sight would be achieved with no intervening obstructions or foliage. Perhaps that won't actually be the case. >In some recent testing (last two years), the measured 220 MHz noise >levels at a great number of sites in suburban and rural areas came in >between -101 and -86 dBm. For a reasonably SOTA receiver, front end >noise level is certainly NOT the limiting factor at frequencies below >1 GHz. Thanks again. It appears that MOSFET preamps with 1 dB noise figures are common on this band. At 220 MHz with an estimated receive bandwidth of 20 KHz, the ENI is approximately -130 dBm. Reducing the bandwidth to 3 KHz, it drops even further, to about -138 dBm. This is well below the ambient noise you're quoting, but perhaps it's occasionally useful when the band is quiet, or if receive feedline losses are unusually high. Given this, I am especially surprised that anyone would go a step further and employ GaAsFETs for this use, but that's what I found in the Handbook. At any rate, I obviously misinterpreted this information and I'll make the necessary corrections. >Assume that you were to use standard V.32 9600 bps telephone line >modems. They require a S/N of 32 to 39 dB, depending on >manufacturer. Obviously slower baud rates can operate at lower S/N >ratios, but the equipment gets really bulky, slow, and costly when >you are decoding below the noise floor. Do you know what the conversion factor would be to derive carrier/noise from S/N for data? For AM video, we assume that S/N will be approximately 7 to 10 dB below C/N. It's approximate because there is some disagreement as to the exact formula. >> 3. What Carrier to Noise Ratio would -70 dBm represent, and does >>it include signal bandwidth as a modifying factor? >There is no relationship to modify. The -70 dBm number is the >strength of the signal, but says nothing about the local RF noise >level, noise in the receiver, the modulation/demodulation process, >or any other part of the working environment. I understand that, but this number is derived "backwards" from the goal of a certain minimum acceptable C/N (or S/N). That minimum acceptable ratio is achieved at the receiver's detector, thus receiver bandwidth is one of the contributing factors to the ratio. Working towards the receiver input from that minimum C/N requirement, the mininum required signal level is therefore contingent, in part, on the bandwidth of the receiver. What you said earlier about the possibility of decoding below the noise floor obviously has a lot to do with this also. It won't be possible to determine the required input without knowing what C/N is required by the decoder. That information hasn't been supplied, so in its absence, I will use the worst-case figures you quoted earlier for a standard modem. Again, knowing the equivalent C/N, rather than S/N, would be a big help. >Path fade is only important if you want the system to talk more than >once, and preferably in some repeatable fashion. Just warn him to >sell his backers while the path is 30 dB hot, pay himself three years >of huge salary in advance, and skip town. If we assume that the path is truly line-of-sight, how far below the "nominal" level, where atmospherics are not playing a role, would you expect signals to fade? At 2.5 GHz where I'm more accustomed to performing these calculations, signal fade from atmospherics and precipitation is generally so slight as to not even be a consideration in path lengths of 25 or 50 miles. This was why I didn't factor this in initially. I assumed that lower frequencies are generally even less susceptable to line-of-sight fades. Any additional information you have regarding these issues would be appreciated. I'd like to come out of this with a spreadsheet that can perform the calculations with some semblance of accuracy. :) 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 19:18:06 GMT Lines: 31 Message-ID: <808774331.27321@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <40r317$odn@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <808672311.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> <412epf$miq@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 cmoore@sedona.intel.com wrote: >WB3U wrote: >>Mark, where did you read these comments? I'm interested to know >>more about this. Who is the opposing theorist? >Jack, I goofed and published parts of a personal letter from Walter >Maxwell that I shouldn't have. Mr. Maxwell would like for newsgroup >discussions not to include any of that material and I ask everyone >to respect those wishes. I appologize for my mistake. Cecil, I don't know anything the letter or when you posted it. If I come across it, and assuming that I recognize it for what it is, rest assured I will not include any part of it im my posts. >Leaving Mr. Maxwell and "Reflections" out of the discussion, IMO the >ARRL has taken W5OLY's experimental data to mean that conjugate >matching is not important and/or doesn't really exist. I'm not familiar with W5OLY's work. Are his opposing conclusions derived from mathematical theorems or empirical results (or both)? Also, being familiar with both sets of theorems, which do you find the most plausible? Not to put you on the spot or anything. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!itnews.sc.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 19 Aug 1995 19:15:53 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 32 Distribution: world Message-ID: <415d99$254@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <808672311.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> <412epf$miq@chnews.ch.intel.com> <808774331.27321@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <808774331.27321@pinetree.microserve.com>, WB3U wrote: >I'm not familiar with W5OLY's work. Are his opposing conclusions >derived from mathematical theorems or empirical results (or both)? It was published in QST. My foggy memory says around Nov. 1992. Somebody please correct me if that's not right. The approach was empirical. A signal generator slightly off frequency from the operating transmitter was used to measure the output impedance of the transmitter at the signal generator frequency. The conclusion was that a conjugate match did not exist and maybe has never existed. >Also, being familiar with both sets of theorems, which do you find the >most plausible? I agree that a conjugate match did not exist at the signal generator frequency. However, it does not mean that a conjugate match did not exist at the transmitter frequency which was the ARRL's conclusion which negated the published information on conjugate matching. IMO, the ARRL is all wet in their thinking. IMO, they don't know how a non-reflective mirror works (just like a Z0-match). Incidentally, I have hard copy showing one of the ARRL gurus didn't even know what a Z0-match is. IMO, the ARRL is in the process of dumbing down. It seems to be a case of do something, even if it is wrong. If I were paranoid, I would think it is a federal plot to prove the Amateur Radio Service, via the ARRL, is made up of a bunch of know-nothings who don't deserve any frequencies at all (except maybe 11m). 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:12 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 19 Aug 1995 21:32:30 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 30 Message-ID: <415l9e$ph2@news.azstarnet.com> References: <405bge$aac@opal.southwind.net> <808672311.6261@pinetree.microserve.com> <412epf$miq@chnews.ch.intel.com> <808774331.27321@pinetree.microserve.com> <415d99$254@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite22.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) cmoore@sedona.intel.com wrote: >In article <808774331.27321@pinetree.microserve.com>, >WB3U wrote: > >>I'm not familiar with W5OLY's work. Are his opposing conclusions >>derived from mathematical theorems or empirical results (or both)? > >It was published in QST. My foggy memory says around Nov. 1992. >Somebody please correct me if that's not right. The approach was >empirical. A signal generator slightly off frequency from the >operating transmitter was used to measure the output impedance of >the transmitter at the signal generator frequency. The conclusion >was that a conjugate match did not exist and maybe has never existed. > [snip snip snip] > >73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) Pretty good for a foggy memory, Cecil... You only missed by a year Much better than I usually do. It was titled "RF Power Amplifiers and the Conjugate Match", and was in the Nov, 1991 issue of QST. Jack, There was a raging thread going on here for months on this subject. RIP. IMHO, a major flaw in Bruene's work was that he made a scalar (magnitude only) measurement and magically came up with a vector (complex) answer. But as I said, RIP. 73, Wes -- N7WS From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 20 Aug 1995 10:47:26 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 17 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <417htu$hjb@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <415l9e$ph2@news.azstarnet.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Cecil, I said it a dozen times in the Meaning of Matched thread. If anyone else gets off the duff and duplicates Bruene's tests, or uses the second method I used, you will plainly see a conjugate match does occur at or near maximum power transfer (efficiency). It's so easy to measure I can't beleive everyone keeps saying it's impossible! Secondly, if you look at Bruene's results for the Alpha amplifier you will see it crosses 50 ohms at around 1100 watts. I would be willing to bet hard cold cash that he had the amp tuned for maximum efficiency at 1100 watts when he made the measurement. The people that claim the efficiency can't be more than 50% need to get out some test equipment and get their hands dirty once in a while. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!freenet.vcu.edu!freenet.vcu.edu!not-for-mail From: towen@freenet.vcu.edu Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Need M^2 telephone number Date: 18 Aug 1995 13:24:00 -0400 Organization: Central Virginia's Free-Net Lines: 9 Distribution: world Message-ID: <412ibg$snb@freenet.vcu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.vcu.edu Need M^2 telephone number to request a catalog. --Thanks, Todd -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Todd Owen (KE4UDN) Virginia Commonwealth University towen@freenet.vcu.edu Richmond, Virginia --------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.micron.net!news From: Terry Dobler KJ7F Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Need Prop Pitch Rotator Info Date: 20 Aug 1995 17:51:18 GMT Organization: Micron Internet Services Lines: 8 Message-ID: <417smm$eke@mis02.micron.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs002p41.micron.net Greetings, Would anyone here be able to point me towards any magazine articles relating to prop pitch rotators? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Terry KJ7F From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.sandia.gov!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!newshost.lanl.gov!usenet From: Gerald Schmitt Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Need source for "DK-3" HF Mobile Antenna Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 20:20:48 mdt Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Lines: 9 Message-ID: <413iam$qrj@newshost.lanl.gov> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: transitory1.lanl.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Well Mr. Armond all things must not be equal because the heavily advertised DK-3s do sell for a lot more than the garage produced ones. I have talked to several of the commercial producers about their antennas and have found the biggest prices are associated with the most bull. When Don Johnson sold them he got $125 for one. Look at the current ads more than twice that in my opinion a rip. The original poster asked for a source not an economics lesson. Jeez. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet From: host name@earthlink.net (Your real Name) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Newsgroup Archive Retrieval Date: 20 Aug 1995 03:31:32 GMT Organization: Your Organization Lines: 8 Message-ID: <416aak$d9q@mars.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jlb.earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.14 Hi, Would someone please let me know how to access postings that are no longer visible on the newsgroup screen? How far back can we access postings? Can we do a search by subject or author? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joe AA6WG From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: mauricea@glo.BE (Maurice Andries) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Outbacker Mobile Antennas. Date: 19 Aug 95 16:36:22 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 24 Message-ID: <199508191636.SAA18645@world.glo.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu Hi all, I'm looking for info on the mobile antennas Outbacker. Who uses one and how do they perform. Which types can be taken apart in small parts (to fit a suitcase)? What kind of base is availlable. I will need a base that can be used on as many different cars as possible since most of the time I will have to use the antenna on a rental car. A Magnetic mount would be ideal (I'm not driving and QSO'ing at the same time anyway). All other info welcome too TNX a lot. Bye, from mauricea@glo.be ( Maurice Andries ) ON4BAM@ON6AR.#AN.BEL.EU From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.smartlink.net!pm178-52.smartlink.net!user From: jpurtle@smartlink.net (Jeffery Allan Purtle) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Outbacker Mobile Antennas. Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 11:57:22 -0800 Organization: SmartLink.net Premier ISP 805-294-1273 Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <199508191636.SAA18645@world.glo.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm178-52.smartlink.net In article <199508191636.SAA18645@world.glo.be>, mauricea@glo.BE (Maurice Andries) wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for info on the mobile antennas Outbacker. Who uses one and how > do they perform. Which types can be taken apart in small parts (to fit a > suitcase)? > > What kind of base is availlable. I will need a base that can be used on as > many different cars as possible since most of the time I will have to use > the antenna on a rental car. A Magnetic mount would be ideal (I'm not > driving and QSO'ing at the same time anyway). > > > > All other info welcome too > > > TNX a lot. > > > > Bye, from mauricea@glo.be ( Maurice Andries ) > ON4BAM@ON6AR.#AN.BEL.EU HI. I have the Outbacker Perth and like it. The only commentsI have is that 80 meters doesn't seem to be that great. Good reports on everything else. Also, you have to get out of the car to change the coil tap. I am thinking of trying one of those Screwdriver type antennas. But, I don't know of one that covers 160 through 10 without adding a coil for 160. Also, for a ball mount, the Hustler one is the best. It can stand-up to anything. I have driven my car 90 MPH into a headwind and had no problem with it and the Outbacker. Don't get the radio shack ball mount. IT SUCKS! You get what you pay for. 73, jeff ac6iw From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:17 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Pager extender From: clint.bradford@woodybbs.com (Clint Bradford) Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!wwswinc!clint.bradford Distribution: world Message-ID: <93.2176.7581.0NFBADF8@woodybbs.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 14:04:00 -0500 Organization: WoodyWare Software, Inc. - 516-736-6662 Lines: 13 Subject: Pager extender >>...pager range extender ... to use when in the fringes... You might want to contact your paging company, and let them know that their advertised range isn't what you're experiencing. Approached correctly, they might give you an upgraded unit at no charge. Clint Bradford --- * TLX v4.00 * ATTENTION to Details BBS - 909/681-6221 - EFF/AOP/ASP þ wcECHO 4.1 ÷ AR-Net: ATTENTION to Details þ Mira Loma, CA þ 909-681-6221 From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!tcp.co.uk!usenet From: moonraker@tcp.co.uk (Darren) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Parasitic elements question Date: 19 Aug 1995 21:20:05 GMT Organization: Sugar Radio DX group Lines: 15 Message-ID: <415ki5$gdk@zeus.tcp.co.uk> References: <40t6bq$1hb@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: du2-11.tcp.co.uk X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ In article <40t6bq$1hb@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, ham@wam.umd.edu (Scott Richard Rosenfeld) says: > >I would like to, in my limited-space arrangement (my attic), set >up an array of 2-element beams, each consisting of a driven element >and a reflector. > >How about a shortened 6m Yagi? I know it sounds dumb but I am REALLY >limited space-wise. > What about a four square? ( four phased verticals works in four directions) A mate of mine uses four mobile CB antennas on the tin roof of his garage! It works like a 2 ele yagi on 10m, the design came out of the ARRL Antenna handbook...If you were using it in your attic then aluminium cooking foil spread all around would be a great groundplane... 73 Darren G0TSM From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!mgarrett From: mgarrett@prairienet.org (Mark A. Garrett) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: part 15 antennas for broadcast band Date: 19 Aug 1995 17:31:52 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 8 Message-ID: <415768$hrq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Reply-To: mgarrett@prairienet.org (Mark A. Garrett) NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org I am wondering if anyone out there has had experience with running a antenna for a part 15 type transmitter in the am broadcast band that meets the FCC requiremts for part 15 being at the last time I checked around 10 feet including feedline. Any good or bad comments on designs appreciated. -- Mark Garrett mgarrett@prairienet.org KA9SZX @ N9LNQ.#ECIL.IL.USA.NOAM From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!squarethru.mti.sgi.com!rfrench From: rfrench@squarethru.mti.sgi.com (Robert French) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN Date: 21 Aug 1995 21:12:03 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. Lines: 71 Distribution: world Message-ID: <41asr3$i7i@fido.asd.sgi.com> Reply-To: rfrench@mti.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Host: squarethru.mti.sgi.com There has been a lot of talk about GAP verticals recently. This weekend I built and installed a GAP Titan (which is a very new antenna). Physical description: The antenna is 25 feet tall and weighs about 25 pounds. It is made of aluminum, with the lowest section being triple-walled and the second-lowest being double-walled. There are four main tuning rods symmetrically placed parallel to the middle of the antenna, and a few other random tuning rods placed at odd places. There is a small capacitative hat for 80m at the top of the antenna. At the bottom is a counterpoise mounted as a square of wire offset 7 feet from the mast. This makes the footprint pretty large if you mount it close to the ground. Mounting is thru attachment to a 1 1/4" pipe. The antenna bends quite easily, but once guyed seems sturdy enough. I don't live in an area with ice or snow or heavy winds, so I don't really care. Construction: It took a friend and I about 8 hours to build and raise the antenna. Most of this was attaching various tubes, tuning rods, etc. The counterpoise needs to be assembled once the antenna has been made vertical. We mounted it on a 5 foot mast section in the middle of my back yard to assemble the counterpoise (which is then at about eye level). Directions were pretty clear and we never ran into any serious problems during construction. Performance: I tested the antenna with an FT-707 running 100w thru 110 feet of RG-8/M coax. The antenna is mounted 5 feet off the ground and is relatively near a large tree, a 2 story house, and a long length of 6 foot tall wooden fence. It does not have a "clear shot" at the horizon in any direction. It's one of the worst places you could think to put an antenna. For comparison, I used to have a 20m and 40m inverted vee dipole in this same location. The apex was at about 20 feet, and the ends at about 5 feet. I was able to work only a couple of people SSB over the months, and a few people on CW. It was in general pretty useless for long distance contacts. The greatest distance I worked was GA on 20m SSB (very weak signal report) and Eastern Russia on 40m CW. It turns out the NA QSO Party contest was this weekend, so I was able to make a fair number of contacts Saturday evening. From central California I worked CA, UT, IA, and IN on 20m SSB after dark. I received a 59 signal report from IN and had a nice QSO with a person there. The antenna is supposed to tune on 10, 12, 15, 17, 20, 30, 40, and part of 80 without an antenna tuner. I found 20 worked fine, but I needed the tuner on 40 (there is an adjustment for 40 that I haven't done yet, so that may be the problem). I could hear plenty of people on 80, some as far as central Canada, but was unable to talk to any of them (previously I couldn't even hear people on 80). I have an AEA HF Analyzer that I'll use to see how well the antenna tunes, but its batteries were dead this weekend so I can't give that information now. And yes, I'm well aware that a low SWR doesn't mean anything, but at least it might say I assembled the antenna correctly. Conclusion: I'm tentatively happy with the antenna, if for no other reason than it's so much better than the lousy setup I had before. Once I have a chance to put it in its final location (which will be up another 5 feet) and work some stations, I'll post more results. Rob, AC6GO From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!mail.megaweb.com!BamaFan From: BamaFan@megaweb.com (Kelvin Nunn) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Recommendations for a HT External Antenna Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 20:32:19 Organization: Megaweb Lines: 13 Message-ID: <418od6$g04@news-e1a.megaweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: @www_7_193.gnn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: GNN Messenger 1.1 I just passed my Tech :) and got an dual band HT!! I would like some advise for an external antenna for home. I am also thinking about an amp too. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. What hav you used? How well does it work? Also does anyone know if there is a AC adapter for the 51-R? I know they make an adapter for cars. The HT will run in the charger if the battery is dead but I suspect that doing this may damage the battery. Kelvin Nunn From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:21 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: jlb@earthlink.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: re: SWR how good is good?????? Date: 20 Aug 1995 15:17:26 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Lines: 4 Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu Message-ID: <199508202016.NAA08428@atlas.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu Could a high SWR effect the antenna pattern of a 3-element beam for example? Could a conjugate match effect the antenna's pattern? Joe AA6WG From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:22 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.telalink.net!uro!jackatak!root From: root@jackatak.theporch.com (Jack GF Hill) Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Organization: Jack's Amazing CockRoach Capitalist Ventures Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:45:11 GMT Message-ID: <10830c2w165w@jackatak.theporch.com> References: <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk> Sender: bbs@nowhere.uucp (Superuser) Lines: 56 davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk (Dave Kirkby) writes: > I have a requirement in a computer program, to determine an antenna SWR, then > compute a 'quality factor' for it. ie: > > SWR=1:1 Quality =10/10 > SWR=infinity Quality = 0/10 > > Ideally I want a function that takes SWR as an argument and returns a number > 0 and 1.0, that reflects how good the SWR is. > The number I get is used to optimise an antenna, which gets optimised > for gain, sidelobe level, swr, fb ratio etc. I want to put just the > right amount of bias to each parameter. Well, I think you need to re-think your analysis of your basic proposition: that the antenna SWR is important to the performance of the antenna. Call me old-fashioned and loads of other epithets, but SWR is NOT, in and of itself, a measure of antenna performance and quality. In fact, it is not usually a function of hte antenna at all, but rather is a SYSTEMIC value... that is, the SYSTEM SWR is perhaps relevant to how the antenna system will perform, but even here it is NOT the primary nor even a seriously important variable, ASSUMING one is able to load the SYSTEM properly. Consider the opening chapters of Maxwell's "Reflections" where Walt describes an antenna SYSTEM *designed* with a SWR of 4.4:1 for a weather satellite and another NAVSAT design that had a 9.3:1 SWR! To assume that taken by itself the SWR is any kind of measure of the quality of hte antenna SYSTEM is to ignore what happens in the SYSTEM. Incidently, the total loss of the 4.4:1 SWR system was only 9.6% and the loss due to a SWR of 9.3:1 was only 0.79dB! Since the antenna itself is presumably designed for some set of optimized characteristics, the SWR does NOT exist at the antenna itself, but rather when a feedline of different impedance is connected between the antenna and the RF processing mechanism (transmitter or receiver) without some form of "matching"... The effect of that mis-match or SWR on the performance of the SYSTEM is dependent upon many variables, feedline loss being one... > Quality proportional to: (1 - ((SWR-1)/(SWR+1))^2) > this would work well. However, poor SWR's are given too high a bias by this. Well said... giving SWR a "quality" measure at all probably gives it too much weigh/bias... -- 73, Jack, W4PPT/M (75M SSB 2-letter WAS #1657/#1789 -- both from the mobile! ;^) +--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--+ | Jack GF Hill |Voice: (615) 459-2636 - Ham Call: W4PPT | | P. O. Box 1685 |Modem: (615) 377-5980 - Bicycling and SCUBA Diving | | Brentwood, TN 37024|Fax: (615) 459-0038 - Life Member - ARRL | | root@jackatak.theporch.com - "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose" | +--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--+ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tgold.dialup.access.net!tgold From: "Anthony R. Gold" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 17:16:17 GMT Organization: Myorganisation Lines: 15 Message-ID: <808852577snz@tgold.dialup.access.net> References: <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk> <10830c2w165w@jackatak.theporch.com> Reply-To: tgold@panix.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tgold.dialup.access.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 In article <10830c2w165w@jackatak.theporch.com> root@jackatak.theporch.com "Jack GF Hill" writes: > Well said... giving SWR a "quality" measure at all probably gives it > too much weigh/bias... Indeed, or else just soaking our coax in water would be the magic formula to improving the "quality" of the antenna. 73. -- Tony - G3SKR / AA2PM email: tgold@panix.com tgold@microvst.demon.co.uk packet: g3skr@n0ary.#nocal.ca.usa.na From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 15:47:16 GMT Message-ID: <610256739-950820084716@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 76 -> From: root@jackatak.theporch.com (Jack GF Hill) -> References: <1995Aug16.085934.53703@ucl.ac.uk> -> Lines: 56 -> -> davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk (Dave Kirkby) writes: -> > I have a requirement in a computer program, to determine an antenna -> then -> > compute a 'quality factor' for it. ie: -> > -> > SWR=1:1 Quality =10/10 -> > SWR=infinity Quality = 0/10 -> > -> > Ideally I want a function that takes SWR as an argument and returns -> number -> > 0 and 1.0, that reflects how good the SWR is. -> -> > The number I get is used to optimise an antenna, which gets optimis -> > for gain, sidelobe level, swr, fb ratio etc. I want to put just the -> > right amount of bias to each parameter. -> -> Well, I think you need to re-think your analysis of your basic -> proposition: that the antenna SWR is important to the performance of -> the antenna. -> -> Call me old-fashioned and loads of other epithets, but SWR is NOT, in -> and of itself, a measure of antenna performance and quality. In fact, -> it is not usually a function of hte antenna at all, but rather is a -> SYSTEMIC value... that is, the SYSTEM SWR is perhaps relevant to how -> the antenna system will perform, but even here it is NOT the primary -> nor even a seriously important variable, ASSUMING one is able to load -> the SYSTEM properly. -> -> Consider the opening chapters of Maxwell's "Reflections" where Walt -> describes an antenna SYSTEM *designed* with a SWR of 4.4:1 for a -> weather satellite and another NAVSAT design that had a 9.3:1 SWR! To -> assume that taken by itself the SWR is any kind of measure of the -> quality of hte antenna SYSTEM is to ignore what happens in the SYSTEM -> Incidently, the total loss of the 4.4:1 SWR system was only 9.6% and -> the loss due to a SWR of 9.3:1 was only 0.79dB! -> -> Since the antenna itself is presumably designed for some set of -> optimized characteristics, the SWR does NOT exist at the antenna -> itself, but rather when a feedline of different impedance is connecte -> between the antenna and the RF processing mechanism (transmitter or -> receiver) without some form of "matching"... The effect of that -> mis-match or SWR on the performance of the SYSTEM is dependent upon -> many variables, feedline loss being one... In a system, I think the swr can exist at the antenna. If a system is designed to operate at 50 ohms and you have it mis-tuned to say 25 ohms with a zero length of transmission line from a 50 ohm transmitter the swr exists at the antenna and or is the cause of the mis-match. If one was to cut the transmission line in electrical muliples of 1/2 wave length at the operating frequency, in theory, the swr would be the same at the transmitter as it would be at the antenna. The transmission line would not effect the swr at the antenna. If the transmission line was not cut to a given 1/2 wave multiple, then one would see a change in swr between the swr at the antenna and at the transmitter. The coax would become part of the "tuned" circuit. I think this is why I read about people trimming their transmission line to get a good match. What they are doing is "tuning" the entire system because they do not have a proper match at the antenna. The higher the swr, the more the transmission line plays a part in being part of the tuned circuit. I firmly beleive this is why it is important to tune a new antenna, at the antenna, with the transmitter having the shortest possible length of transmission line possible, say 4" + the meter length. Once the antenna is tuned to a transmitter, then one can add electrical 1/2 wave lengths of transmission line. I think this takes the transmission line out of the equation (for the most part). Of course, in many installations, this is just about impossible to to do. WA6OFT jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 16:35:05 GMT Message-ID: <1600804190-950820093505@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 68 -> > -> > SWR=1:1 Quality =10/10 -> > SWR=infinity Quality = 0/10 -> > -> > Ideally I want a function that takes SWR as an argument and returns -> number -> > 0 and 1.0, that reflects how good the SWR is. -> -> > The number I get is used to optimise an antenna, which gets optimis -> > for gain, sidelobe level, swr, fb ratio etc. I want to put just the -> > right amount of bias to each parameter. -> -> Well, I think you need to re-think your analysis of your basic -> proposition: that the antenna SWR is important to the performance of -> the antenna. -> -> Call me old-fashioned and loads of other epithets, but SWR is NOT, in -> and of itself, a measure of antenna performance and quality. In fact, -> it is not usually a function of hte antenna at all, but rather is a -> SYSTEMIC value... that is, the SYSTEM SWR is perhaps relevant to how -> the antenna system will perform, but even here it is NOT the primary -> nor even a seriously important variable, ASSUMING one is able to load -> the SYSTEM properly. -> -> Consider the opening chapters of Maxwell's "Reflections" where Walt -> describes an antenna SYSTEM *designed* with a SWR of 4.4:1 for a -> weather satellite and another NAVSAT design that had a 9.3:1 SWR! To -> assume that taken by itself the SWR is any kind of measure of the -> quality of hte antenna SYSTEM is to ignore what happens in the SYSTEM -> Incidently, the total loss of the 4.4:1 SWR system was only 9.6% and -> the loss due to a SWR of 9.3:1 was only 0.79dB! Forgive me for being stupid, but I am missing something here. A rough example (figures are approx.): 100 watt transmitter = 50 dbm 10 watts reflected power = 40 dbm Gives 90 watts radiated power = 49.54 dbm Difference = .46 dbm 10 watts reflected power represents an vswr of approx 1.75:1 Is this not 10 % of the transmitter power, in watts, being absorbed (wasted) in the "system"? I consider this to be significant and would certainly take measures to correct it. I might add here that some transmitters have automatic protection circuits in them. Some will start reducing transmitter power with swr's of 2:1 to protect themselves. Usually, the reflected power or much of it is absorbed in the final output device. Another example: 10 watt transmitter 3 watts reflected power This is 30 % of the transmitter power being absorbed by the system. Vswr would be approx 3.42:1. I dont know about your transmitters, but mine would be folding back the output power to protect itself! Another example: 100 watt transmitter 25 watts reflected This is 25% of the output power being asorbed by the system. Vswr would be roughly 3.0:1. So what gives here? These figures are significant are they not? Jim, WA6OFT jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!itnews.sc.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Date: 20 Aug 1995 18:18:25 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: <417u9h$qb4@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <1600804190-950820093505@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <1600804190-950820093505@racebbs.com>, Jim Wooddell wrote: > Forgive me for being stupid, but I am missing something here. > 100 watt transmitter = 50 dbm > 10 watts reflected power = 40 dbm Hi Jim, I'm certainly not implying that you are stupid but I do think you are missing something. In the above example, the transmitter is delivering 100w and the reflected "power" is 10w so, *in a properly tuned system*, the forward power will measure 110w and *all* the power delivered by the transmitter will be delivered to the load no matter how mismatched assuming lossless transmission lines and steady state conditions. The 10w of reflected energy circulates and does not dissipate until the power is removed. (I know a watt is not energy but I have been chastised in the past for saying "reflected power"). And here's a personal opinion: The reflected energy must be re-reflected before it reaches the transistor final or else some of it *can* be dissipated "in the system". A simple antenna tuner accomplishes a Z0-match at its input thereby 100% re-reflecting the reflected energy back toward the load. That's how conjugate matching works. In your example, with 10w being absorbed by the system, you must be using a $40,000 network analyzer for the source which has expensive circuitry built in to absorb reflected energy. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!itnews.sc.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - how good is good???????? Date: 20 Aug 1995 19:09:23 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 35 Distribution: world Message-ID: <418193$t4b@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <610256739-950820084716@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <610256739-950820084716@racebbs.com>, Jim Wooddell wrote: > In a system, I think the swr can exist at the antenna. We must be careful with words. The swr originates at the antenna/ xmission line junction. If the antenna is resistive, then no energy transfer takes place from antenna to xmission line. So a 50 ohm antenna fed with 300 ohm ladder-line would cause a 6:1 swr on the ladder-line but all the power transferred from the ladder-line to the lossless antenna will be radiated. If the antenna has a reactive component it can pump energy back from the antenna into the xmission line just like it would if it were a real capacitor or coil. This is the mechanism that can possibly (not necessairly will) cause energy to make a round trip to the antenna and back and be dissipated in the final transistor if there is no match to cause 100% re-reflection. > I firmly beleive this is why it is important to tune a new antenna, > at the antenna, with the transmitter having the shortest possible > length of transmission line possible, say 4" + the meter length. If your xmission line is near lossless and doesn't radiate, tuning at the antenna is not necessary (good thing, I can't get up there anymore). With *any* length of xmission line, if one conjugately matches whatever impedance exists, then almost all the power delivered by the transmitter will be delivered to and radiated by a near lossless antenna. Thus one has resonated the entire system even though the antenna itself may be a non-resonant length. If one knows what one is doing, SWR by itself, doesn't matter. Trimming ones SWR to 1:1 is playing it safe (unless one is resorting to a dummy load :-). Depending on the application, an SWR of 10:1 may be just dandy. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:28 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: SWR Meters and Coax Radiation Message-ID: <1995Aug20.162750.17130@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <808514945.5797@pinetree.microserve.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 16:27:50 GMT Lines: 39 In article <808514945.5797@pinetree.microserve.com> jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: >A few weeks ago there was a thread on this topic in which I stated >that an SWR meter would not be accurate in the presence of shield RF. >Someone (sorry, I don't remember who it was) questioned whether >this was true. > >As explanation, the reason the meter can't be trusted under these >conditions is that the detection and metering circuits need a >reference to work against. If the reference is modulated by RF, the >readings may not indicate either the true values of forward and >reflected power, or the ratio between them. While granting that this can be affected by the particulars of meter construction, this explanation is, in general, not true. A VSWR meter works by measuring the *ratio* of forward to reverse voltages *inside* the line. Since what it measures is just a ratio, no reference potential is required. Since it only deals with voltages *inside* the line, voltages *outside* the line are of no consequence to the measurement. If the meter leads, which do extend outside the measured line section, aren't properly decoupled for RF, the meter reading could be affected by rectification in a dissimilar metal junction. But that's just poor instrument design, and not inherent. The real reason VSWR readings may be anomolous under the condition of RF on the outside of the coax is that the coax is forming part of one leg of the antenna, and thus any fooling with it to do the measurement changes the antenna, which of course changes the impedance presented to the feedpoint of the coax, which in turn changes the VSWR. The meter isn't lying, it's just measuring a different antenna than the one without the VSWR meter in one leg of the radiator. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:29 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpcvsnz!tomb From: tomb@lsid.hp.com (Tom Bruhns) Subject: Re: SWR Meters and Coax Radiation Sender: news@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com (News ) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 17:50:19 GMT References: <1995Aug20.162750.17130@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Nntp-Posting-Host: hplsnb.lsid.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.4] Lines: 28 Gary Coffman (gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us) wrote: : While granting that this can be affected by the particulars of : meter construction, this explanation is, in general, not true. etc. I think Gary's explanation on this is right on. (And I can recall when he was on the other side of the fence on this one...!) But don't take our word for it. If you think your SWR meter responds to RF on the outside of a line, do a simple test. Put the SWR meter in an antenna, where there is LOTS of RF on the outside of the "line". See if it reads anything. If it does, it's not constructed properly. You can do this either by putting the meter in a length of coax which is shorted at each end, and using that length of line as part of an antenna (e.g., dipole). You can put the meter at a high current point, and a high voltage point, to check response to both electric and magnetic fields. Or you can do the same thing by shorting the meter RF input and output ports and just connecting the meter in a cut in an antenna element. (With the meter in a length of line, you stand some chance of exciting current inside the line from currents outside the line. Coax is not perfectly shielded.) Oftentimes, a simple test will resolve a dispute of hundreds of unfounded opinions... 73, K7ITM From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:30 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: SWR Meters and Coax Radiation Message-ID: <1995Aug21.143813.20652@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <808514945.5797@pinetree.microserve.com> <1995Aug20.162750.17130@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <808980268.15710@pinetree.microserve.com> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 14:38:13 GMT Lines: 72 In article <808980268.15710@pinetree.microserve.com> jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) wrote: > >>While granting that this can be affected by the particulars of >>meter construction, this explanation is, in general, not true. >>A VSWR meter works by measuring the *ratio* of forward to reverse >>voltages *inside* the line. Since what it measures is just a >>ratio, no reference potential is required. Since it only deals >>with voltages *inside* the line, voltages *outside* the line >>are of no consequence to the measurement. If the meter leads, >>which do extend outside the measured line section, aren't properly >>decoupled for RF, the meter reading could be affected by > > << snip >> > >Yes, a VSWR meter is supposed to compare only the ratio of forward to >reverse power. Most of the ones I've seen in ham shacks do this by >running the coax center conductor through a toroidal pickup coil. >Currents in the center conductor generate a directional voltage at the >ends of the coil. This is actually an ISWR meter, and would present a *horrible* impedance bump at VHF+, but that's not very important at HF. At VHF+, coupled transmission line segments, ala Micromatch (or a Bird wattmeter), would be used to preserve a constant impedance through the instrument. the only leads sticking through the outer of the line section would be at DC for connection to the meter movement. These should be RF decoupled by feedthrough capacitors. >If it was possible to measure that voltage without a reference, >(for instance with a floating directional voltmeter at the coil), >then currents flowing on the outside of the line would have no effect. >However, none of these meters work this way. They all develop the RF >from each side of the coil across a resistor tied to ground, and that >ground is not inside the coax. It is external to the coax (although >inside the case of the meter) and any RF currents present on the >shield of the coax will be present on the reference ground. This is where you're going wrong. The case *is* the outside of the transmission line for this style of ISWR meter. The case has coax connectors on each end, and the shield connection is furnished by the case. Thus any stray shield currents flow on the *outside* of the case. Only the transmission line currents flow *inside* the case. Skin effect keeps them separated, just as it does anywhere else on a coaxial line. So they won't affect the resistor or diode in the ISWR detector. Now if the meter isn't shielded, it can form an opening in the case shielding that *can* cause upsets, so a metal shell meter movement should be used, or an external meter movement should be used, fed via feedthrough capacitors in the case wall as with the case for VHF+ instruments. >>The real reason VSWR readings may be anomolous under the condition >>of RF on the outside of the coax is that the coax is forming part >>of one leg of the antenna, and thus any fooling with it to do the >>measurement changes the antenna, which of course changes the >>impedance presented to the feedpoint of the coax, which in turn >>changes the VSWR. The meter isn't lying, it's just measuring a >>different antenna than the one without the VSWR meter in one leg >>of the radiator. > >I agree with this, I'm just not certain it's necessarily the primary >reason for the phenomenon. I hold that with any properly constructed instrument it is the *only* reason. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: desloan@aol.com (D E Sloan) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: unsubscribe Date: 20 Aug 1995 12:34:22 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 1 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <417o6e$j4l@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader UNSUBSCRIBE From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Using manual antenna tuner with autotuner Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 05:41:28 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <808983666.15710@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <40vfsr$62@news.cc.oberlin.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu wrote: >Does it make sense to use a manual antenna tuner in conjunction >with an autotuner? The autotuner in the Yaesu FL-7000 can reduce >a 3:1 SWR to 1.2:1, but I think the G5RV I'm using has an SWR higher >than 3:1 on 80m, for example. Yes, VSWR from a 102' dipole will be relatively high everywhere except 20M, where it is a 3/2 wave radiator. Personally, I would bypass the auto tuner and use the manual unit only. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ais.net!kiwi.pyrotechnics.com!dirge From: dirge@pyrotechnics.com (James Meehan) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Wanted: 900 MHz Antennas Date: 18 Aug 1995 19:36:28 GMT Organization: PYROtechnics Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <412q3s$bst@news.ais.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kiwi.pyrotechnics.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I'm looking for an omnidirectional antenna for the 900 MHz band. If you have one, or know of someone who makes them new, please let me know. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James C. Meehan PYROtechnics, Inc. 1566 W. Algonquin Rd., Ste. 112 Computer consulting, custom Hoffman Estates, IL 60195 programming, hardware sales and Internet connectivity. work phone: (708) 991-9345 ext. 2 pager: (708) 750-9548 http://www.pyrotechnics.com/~dirge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!esol.intermedia.com!news From: geotek@cent.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Wanted: Old Test Equip. Catalogs Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 08:43:09 PDT Organization: (None) Lines: 7 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.149.224.16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:85271 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9087 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13168 I would like to purchase old test catalogs for my library. I am interested in catalogs and data sheets from the 50's through the mid 70's. If you have any H.P., Tektronix, General Radio, Wavetek, Boonton Radio, or similar catalogs please contact George Carlson at Email geotek@cent.com or telephone office-(713)376-4606, home-(713)376-8307 From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:34 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!news.funet.fi!news.tele.fi!news.inet.tele.fi!usenet From: Osmo.Vuorio@tele.telebox.fi (Osmo Vuorio) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: 19 Aug 1995 21:04:26 GMT Organization: TELECOM FINLAND, Engineering Lines: 12 Message-ID: <415jkq$n5u@kuikka.inet.fi> References: <412t8g$prf@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: vuorios1.dial.tele.fi X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ In article , k2ph@dxis.monroe.pa.us (Bob Schreibmaier) says: .. >Didn't we decide the last time this thread was discussed that it was Bayonet >Neill Concilmann (sp?) after the Bell Labs engineers who invented it? > >73, >Bob K2PH .. I have been thinkering this BNC stands for what?? in my mind. Let's say - the past 25 years. If this is true - thank you ! Osmo, OH2EU From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:34 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.umbc.edu!rkirk1 From: rkirk1@umbc.edu (Robert Kirk) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: 19 Aug 1995 00:40:54 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Lines: 17 Message-ID: <413bum$nbc@news.umbc.edu> References: <412c68$18eo@hopi.gate.net> <412t8g$prf@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: f-umbc8.umbc.edu NNTP-Posting-User: rkirk1 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Gordon Pritchard (gpritcha@vanieee.wimsey.bc.ca) wrote: : jrivera@news.gate.net (Jose Rivera) wrote: : >Does BNC (from BNC connector) stands for something ? : Yes. Bayonet-Nut Coupling (from the push-and-twist outer nut which : couples the connector together). : _______________________________ |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) _______________ : gpritcha@vanieee.wimsey.bc.ca /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' : Gordon Pritchard |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ don't ever disturb : ______________________________ '---''(_/--' (_/-'_____a sleeping cat! I understood that it was "Bayonet: Neill-Councilman" for the inventing engineers... Bob Kirk Ne From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:08:21 GMT Message-ID: <1329104863-950819160821@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 12 -> -> jrivera@news.gate.net (Jose Rivera) wrote: -> -> >Does BNC (from BNC connector) stands for something ? -> -> Yes. Bayonet-Nut Coupling (from the push-and-twist outer nut which -> couples the connector together). -> I thought it was called Bulk Navy Connector and the Type N connector was called the Navy Connector. Hmmmm. jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!DIALix!brisbane.DIALix.oz.au!not-for-mail From: mkelly@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au (Murray Kelly) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: 21 Aug 1995 01:05:52 +1000 Organization: DIALix Services, Brisbane, Australia. Lines: 3 Sender: mkelly@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au Message-ID: <417j0g$k0t$1@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au> References: <412c68$18eo@hopi.gate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mkelly@brisbane.dialix.oz.au Bayonet NC. Murray kelly vk4aok From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jajb@aol.com (Jajb) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: 20 Aug 1995 13:02:01 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 4 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <417pq9$jj1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <1329104863-950819160821@racebbs.com> Reply-To: jajb@aol.com (Jajb) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com What I've been told throughout the years and by some history from the maufacturers is that it means "Baby 'N' Connector". A smaller version of the grand-daddy 'N' connectors used earlier for VHF and UHF Military radios. From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 23:40:03 GMT Message-ID: <1799556330-950820164003@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 28 -> Path: global.gc.net!athos.itribe.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pi -> pipex!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!no -> mail -> From: jajb@aol.com (Jajb) -> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna -> Lines: 4 -> References: <1329104863-950819160821@racebbs.com> -> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com -> -> What I've been told throughout the years and by some history from the -> maufacturers is that it means "Baby 'N' Connector". A smaller version -> the grand-daddy 'N' connectors used earlier for VHF and UHF Military -> radios. Amphenol, one of the companies that has made this connector and the 'n' connector for years and has made them for the military described both the BNC and the N connectors. They were developed for the Navy ships and are waterproof. Someone has said they are named after a Bell labs person, however, the BNC was made after the N connector for bulk head patch panels on ships in WWII. The N connector was too big for the patch panels, and the N stood for NAVY connector. So came the BNC connector for the Bulk head patch panels BULK NAVY CONNECTOR. Amphenol, in one of their older technical catalogs described this. I beleive it! Jim, WA6OFT jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:38 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.moneng.mei.com!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.ptd.net!dxis!k2ph From: k2ph@dxis.monroe.pa.us (Bob Schreibmaier) Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Message-ID: Organization: QRM Central, Kresgeville, PA References: <412t8g$prf@fountain.mindlink.net> Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 02:33:00 GMT Lines: 19 From article <412t8g$prf@fountain.mindlink.net>, by gpritcha@vanieee.wimsey.bc.ca (Gordon Pritchard): > jrivera@news.gate.net (Jose Rivera) wrote: > >>Does BNC (from BNC connector) stands for something ? > Yes. Bayonet-Nut Coupling (from the push-and-twist outer nut which > couples the connector together). Didn't we decide the last time this thread was discussed that it was Bayonet Neill Concilmann (sp?) after the Bell Labs engineers who invented it? 73, Bob K2PH -- +------------------ \-\-\-\ -----------------------------+ | Bob Schreibmaier K2PH | INTERNET: k2ph@dxis.monroe.pa.us | | (a.k.a. "The QRPer") | ICBM: 40o55'N 75o30'W | | Kresgeville, PA | Euthanize the Limbaugh Loonies. | +----------------------------------------------------------+ From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:38 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 08:27:42 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: <808821708.6170@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <413sl6$k4v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 buddy10@aol.com (BUDDY10) wrote: >What is a WINDOM antenna ? What is the difference between a Windom & >a dipole ? A Windom antenna is an *unbroken* horizontal wire fed off-center with a *single-wire* feeder. The horizontal section is 1/2 wavelength and the feeder is connected at a point 0.36 wavelength from one end. This is a very old design, going back to sometime around the 30's. More recently, antennas that are fed off-center, but with a standard two-wire feedline, have become popular. The so-called "Carolina Windom" is an example of this type. Finally, a good ole' dipole is center-fed with a two-wire feeder. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:39 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!iglou!n4lq From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: iglou.iglou.com Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News Administrator) Organization: IgLou Internet Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <413sl6$k4v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 14:27:18 GMT Lines: 15 BUDDY10 (buddy10@aol.com) wrote: : What is a WINDOM antenna ? What is the difference between a Windom & a : dipole ? This was invented by Mr. Windom back in the 30's. It resembles a dipole but is fed 1/3 wavelength off center. This feed point is supposed to present about 300 ohms on the fundemental and multiples. Using high impedance feeder or a 6 to 1 balun, a fair match to coax can be realized on several bands i.e. 80,40,20, 10 meters. Probelms with RF on the feeder are common since the system is rather unbalanced. Any ARRL handbook or Antenna manual can give a much better description. 73 -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com From amsoft@epix.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:40 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!itnews.sc.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? Date: 19 Aug 1995 21:20:55 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <415kjn$8uh@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <413sl6$k4v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <413sl6$k4v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, BUDDY10 wrote: >What is a WINDOM antenna ? What is the difference between a Windom & a >dipole ? The original Windom was a 130 ft horizontal section fed 14% off center with a single-wire feeder often resulting in RF in the shack. The modern Windom is a horizontal off-center-fed dipole (two poles) fed about 33% off center with 300 ohm ladder-line or other transmission line. It is advertised as all-band but IMO needs an antenna tuner. The long pole radiates more RF than the short pole. Hams have been careless with the English language and when they say "dipole" they are often referring to a half-wave center-fed dipole resonant at one fundamental frequency. Low impedance resonant dipoles are often hard to load on double the resonant frequency because the impedance may be sky high. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!nic.wat.hookup.net!fortnum.wat.hookup.net!user From: fortnum@wat.hookup.net (Rich Fortnum) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 1000 KHz Length Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 14:53:00 -0400 Organization: F & M Breweries Limited Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <41aluv$sgc@hptemp1.cc.umr.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fortnum.wat.hookup.net In article , armond@delphi.com wrote: >Dave Stuart (dstuart@umr.edu) writes: > >>I have figured around 150 for a dipole using the 300 / (freq MHz) method. > >The formula is 468/fMHz, which in this case would be 468 ft. 300/fMhz >gives the Meters which would be 300 meters so a dipole would be half of that >or 150 meters minus 5%. I don't quite understand. 468 feet per 300/fMHz? -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Rich Fortnum (aka BeeRich) F & M Breweries Limited Guelph, Ontario, CANADA fortnum@wat.hookup.net From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:34:52 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 207 Message-ID: <41jues$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: Newsgroup:,rec.radio.amateur.antenna i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primene> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > t.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:41 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:36:11 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 207 Message-ID: <41juhb$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: :,rec.radio.amateur.antenna i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primene> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > t.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:39:47 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 207 Message-ID: <41juo3$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: netscape,-[Newstroup:rec.radio.amateur.antenna] i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primene> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > t.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:44:59 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 207 Message-ID: <41jv1r$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: netscape i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primene> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > t.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:48 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:46:17 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 207 Message-ID: <41jv49$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: all i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primene> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > t.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:49:33 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 207 Message-ID: <41jvad$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: newton@primenet.com i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primene> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > t.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:51 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!ncrcae!news From: Tom WB4iUX Subject: Re: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Message-ID: Sender: news@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.ATTGIS.COM (news) Reply-To: Tom.Skelton@ClemsonSC.ATTGIS.COM (TSKELTON) Organization: ATT GIS X-Newsreader: DiscussIT 2.0 for MS Windows [AT&T Software Products Division] References: <41jvad$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 19:54:15 GMT Lines: 29 ==========Phil Diaz, 8/24/95========== i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primene> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- tons of wasted B/W deleted 1. Don't know what a gizmachi antenna is 2. Why would you want to try to double the output of a rig which was obviously not designed for it? Yes, in some tube rigs you can increase the plate voltage to get a few more watts. Some of the Kenwood rigs have internal pots than can adjusted to give a few more watts output. I'm sure you can tinker in other radios to increase the output power.......BUT TO DOUBLE THE OUTPUT POWER?????? If you need more output power, use an amplifier but don't try to incinerate your TS-50. 73, tom WB4iUX **************************************** DX IS!!!! BE A BELIEVER !!!!!! **************************************** From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 14:50:42 GMT Lines: 6 Message-ID: <809448666.16294@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <41jvad$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Gizmachi also makes remote control lawn mowers. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:52 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!cs.dal.ca!ccn.cs.dal.ca!ai557 From: ai557@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Jeffrey A. Harvey) Subject: Re: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Message-ID: Sender: usenet@cs.dal.ca (USENET News) Nntp-Posting-Host: ccn.cs.dal.ca Organization: Chebucto Community Net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <41jvad$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 05:12:12 GMT Lines: 10 Phil Diaz (hc@primenet.com) wrote: : i would like... [about 64 Mbytes snipped, five copies no less] : ...Chester Bowles (48)... Phil, You **MUST** be running Windows-95! That is the only possible explanation for the huge, multiple posting. What other software could have such disregard for computer space? :^)! -Jeffy From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:31:27 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 107 Message-ID: <41ju8f$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: anyone,who,might,know i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primenet.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:56 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:32:28 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 107 Message-ID: <41juac$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: rec.radio.amateur.antenna i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primenet.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!usenet From: Phil Diaz Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2 gizmachi and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 25 Aug 1995 07:33:06 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 107 Message-ID: <41jubi$ns@nnrp1.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip198.prc.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: Newsgroup:,rec.radio.amateur.antenna i would like to find any one who might be familiar with and have the specifications to build a gizmachi antenna. secondly i am looking for a modification to make the ts-50 hf kenwood rig put out 200 watts. i was told there is such a mod. would appreciate any info on either one. thank you very much phil. hc@primenet.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Newsgroup: rec.radio.amateur.antenna > > (Earliest articles...) > (Earlier articles...) > > * Re: G5RV antenna inquiry. - Curt Phillips (38) > o cmoore@sedona.intel (28) > * Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN - Steve Ellington (43) > o Steve Ellington (43) > * Re: What is a WINDOM antenna ? - Ted Zateslo (12) > o Steve Ellington (26) > * Experience with SGC ? > o Mark G. Salyzyn (33) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (26) > * Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Conclusions!!! - Jim Wooddell > (17) > * SWR - how good is good???????? > o Jim Wooddell (56) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (30) > * RE:BNC - Jim Wooddell (7) > o Ted Viens (22) > * Re: GAP Verticals - Tom Skelton (59) > o Grant Youngman (22) > * Re: baluns, should they b - bill.lumnitzer@paonline.com (19) > o W8JI Tom (37) > * Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? - PeterJS (16) > o IO20601@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (19) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - W8JI Tom (15) > o Ted Viens (26) > * Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? - LarryFinch > (54) > * What BNC means ? > o PTracy (12) > o W. Chew (32) > + WB3U (11) > o Joe Pfeuffer (10) > o Murray Kelly (11) > o Butch Magee (7) > * EZNEC G5RV Model? - "George L. Hiscox" (11) > * How good is an antenna????? - Dave Kirkby (51) > o moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de (35) > o cmoore@sedona.intel.com (16) > * What BNC means ? - Muenzler, Kevin (23) > * JPS ANC-4 antenna noise phasing unit - russ@mailhost.gslink.net > (12) > * Program To generate tests for General class theory ? - BUDDY10 > (4) > * 1000 KHz Length - Jim Wooddell (28) > * Re: What BNC means ? - Jim Wooddell (53) > o Ian G3SEK (29) > * Re: SWR - how good is good???????? - Jim Wooddell (47) > * Re: SWR how good is good?????? - Peter Somlo (16) > * Small Loop Antenna Design (ARRL Antenna Handbook) - Joe > Pfeuffer (10) > * Antenna Design Engineer Position - Steve Jarvis (12) > * **FS** HF Log Periodic antenna,tower&rotator - spam (18) > o WB3U (6) > + WB3U (21) > + cmoore@sedona.intel.com (11) > * Hull 5150 ssb tranceiver - spearce@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz (5) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Re: MFJ "no matter what warranty", what a deal? - Joe Pfeuffer > (16) > o The Great Pumpkin (28) > * Velocity factors needed - The Great Pumpkin (18) > * RE: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #364 - Hansen, James K (FL40 (33) > * Baluns, Should they be used? > o Roy Lewallen (18) > + W8JI Tom (21) > o Gary Coffman (44) > * Quadrifiler Antenna - JKenny809 (8) > * KT-34XA windload? - Juha Kupiainen (5) > * (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 - Thomas J. Farish (20) > o armond@delphi.com (7) > * How do you feed HF multiband quad? - Mike, KN6IS (20) > * (none) - Robert Adams (2) > * RE: quad building - D.Ray East (10) > * 1.5 Ghz Quadrifilar Antenns - Howard Udoff (12) > * Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS - Roy Lewallen (25) > * Alpha delta sloper directionality ? - Pat Wright (2) > * Mounting of VHF/UHF Antennas - Mark Riley (49) > * Re: 20/40M mobile vertical question/problems - Butch Magee (8) > * Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? - > Kevin Shea (25) > * Re: HF Log Periodic Beams - Curt Phillips (25) > * RE: Government Restricts Internet!! - Luke Hamaty (2) > * Looking for HF Vertical antenna project for HF nautical band - > MC9450@MCLINK.IT (5) > * Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? - WB3U (46) > * Re: Antenna/coil design program - BUDDY10 (8) > * Aircraft control cable for dipole? - Patrick Tatro (10) > o WB3U (11) > * Re: RE: 70' Rohn Crank-up and Fold-over Tower, need info - > Chester Bowles (48) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!dialup53.azstarnet.com!user From: zygo@azstarnet.com (Jim Mandaville) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 40 mb antenna in limited space????? Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 19:24:44 +0600 Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <41is2i$ogi@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup53.azstarnet.com > there a cheaper alternative to one of these? You've mentioned the cheapest of all, and that's the one to try first if single-band operation will suffice: Just bend the ends off to the sides as space allows, trying to keep away from attic wiring and other metal. The middle section will do most of the radiating in any case. Other options: Use loading coils to electrically lengthen your 40-ft wire (but probably won't be much better than the bent dipole) or: Treat the 40-ft dipole an a non-resonant radiatior and feet it in the middle with latter line from the balanced output of an antenna tuner. Then you could work 40 and higher bands with the one antenna. 73 Jim, KG5KP From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:48:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: billv21572@aol.com (BillV21572) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 40 mb antenna in limited space????? Date: 25 Aug 1995 12:43:08 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 28 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41kuis$cdl@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Hey Jim, Thanks for your response to my post. I already have a great 10 mb dipole in the attic (SWR 1.15:1) fed with coax from my shack in the basement up to the attic over the second floor. Since my novice priviledges (and my pre-WARC Kenwood TS-520S) limit me to 80, 40, and 10 meters, I had been thinking of putting up some sort of 40 mb wire antenna in the attic. Your comment about single-band operation has got me thinking though, I shouldn't neglect having something to use on 80 meters too, as long as I'm up there (the attic) anyway and antenna construction weather isn't that bad right now. As I see it, I have several options. Would you be able to advise me on which one you think would be the best compromise? a.) Use an antenna tuner on my current 10 mb dipole for the 40 and 80 mb also? b.) Put up a 40 foot dipole and use the antenna tuner to get on 40 and 80 meters? c.) Any other suggestions to get both 40 and 80 meters too? Can you also suggest a reasonably cheap antenna tuner for 200 watts or less? Any experience with the inexpensive MFJ-901B "Versa tuner''? (55 bucks, about as cheap as I've seen.) Although I'm not crazy about this idea, I might not have any other choice. I really appreciate the advice. Thanks alot, Sincerely, Bill From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!sprite165.azstarnet.com!user From: zygo@azstarnet.com (Jim Mandaville) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 40 mb antenna in limited space????? Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 12:47:46 +0600 Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <41kuis$cdl@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite165.azstarnet.com In article <41kuis$cdl@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, billv21572@aol.com (BillV21572) wrote: > > a.) Use an antenna tuner on my current 10 mb dipole for the 40 and 80 mb > also? > b.) Put up a 40 foot dipole and use the antenna tuner to get on 40 and 80 > meters? > c.) Any other suggestions to get both 40 and 80 meters too? The 10 m dipole would be too short to work well on 40 or 80 even with ladder line and a tuner. I would suggest just putting the longest dipole you can up there, with ends bent to make maximum use of space, and feeding it with window line and a tuner. That should work on both 40 and 80 and also on higher bands such as 20, 15 and 10. I have seen some commercial, multi-band, shortened dipoles for sale that cover 80 on up with a length of not much more than 50 feet, but that would cost more money. Sorry I don't have much useful experience with antenna tuners. I would however suggest getting one with a power rating well in excess of your immediate needs. Used ones can be pretty cheap. And for window or ladder line make sure, of course, that it has a balanced output. Good luck. I'm about to move to a new house with antenna restrictions, so I'll be facing the same problems soon! 73 Jim, KG5KP. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!globe.indirect.com!slip171.indirect.com!tracker From: tracker@indirect.com (Mark Saunders) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 40 mb antenna in limited space????? Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 09:55:05 LOCAL Organization: Amateur Radio Station KJ7BS Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <41is2i$ogi@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip171.indirect.com X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] Hi Bill, I've been following this thread and have a few comments for you. First, the idea someone gave you of using a 40M dipole center fed with 450 Ohm ladder line is great. I too have a small lot, but was able to get an 1/2 wave 40M dipole between 2 trees. I center fed it with ladder line and worked 80-10M on me TS-520S. Second, if you don't mind running several radiating elements in your attic, try what I call a spider dipole. It is nothing more than a parallel dipole with each element separated at the end by about 1 1/2 foot. I built one for 80, 40 & 20 meters, and with a tuner was able to pick up 15 & 10 meters, too. Third, be aware if you choose to use a loaded (shortened) dipole, your band width will be more narrow than a standard length dipole. This MAY cause you to miss some weak stations. I've not had any problems working stations with a shortened dipole. If I can't hear them, I can't work them. Finally, on the tuner, I purchased a used FMJ-948. It handles 300 watts, does not have a built-in dummy load, has 30/300 watt selection, cross needle meeters, supports 2 antennas, is switchable between bypass and tuned modes, it does have a selection and connection for an external dummy load. I got mine for $75 and it was still under warranty, only 3 month old. KB7VPY, Harry, got a new rig with a tuner built in and did not need it any more. Lucky me! I hope this helps. Mark Saunders - KJ7BS Glendale, AZ INTERNET: tracker@indirect.com mdsaunde@alex.uopphx.uophx.edu Amateur Radio Station - KJ7BS PACKET: KJ7BS@N7MRP.AZ.USA.NA From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Aircraft control cable for dipole? Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 04:18:10 GMT Lines: 14 Message-ID: <809324302.23485@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <809291797.17618@pinetree.microserve.com> <41j2us$3gp@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 mkeitz@bev.net (Mike Keitz) wrote: >Use nylon rope rather than polypropylene. Nylon will last for a long >time, just one season in the sun can ruin polypropylene. I don't >know about polyester. Polyester (Dacron) supposedly has a much greater resistance to UV than either nylon or polyproylene. It's difficult to find, but The Radio Works does sell various sizes. They also have a Dacron/Kevlar blend. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Aircraft control cable for dipole? Date: 25 Aug 1995 00:52:37 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 12 Message-ID: <41j6sl$ef@news.azstarnet.com> References: <809291797.17618@pinetree.microserve.com> <41j2us$3gp@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite213.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) mkeitz@bev.net (Mike Keitz) wrote: >Use nylon rope rather than polypropylene. Nylon will last for a long time, >just one season in the sun can ruin polypropylene. I don't know about >polyester. [snip] In Arizona, polypropylenen will last about two months, nylon about six. I haven't tried polyester, but it's supposed to hold promise. 73, Wes -- N7WS From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!wetware!nss.mag-net.com!atha!rwa From: rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Aircraft control cable for dipole? Date: 25 Aug 1995 18:15:42 GMT Organization: Athabasca University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <41l40e$qgn@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> References: <809291797.17618@pinetree.microserve.com> <41j2us$3gp@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <41j6sl$ef@news.azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aupair.cs.athabascau.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #10 (NOV) Wes Stewart writes: >In Arizona, polypropylene will last about two months, nylon about >six. I haven't tried polyester, but it's supposed to hold promise. What do you folks down there use for air? Must be nasty stuff. I've got a 330' span of 3/8" polypropylene hung at 85' supporting an 80m inverted delta and some other bits. It's been up for two years now and there's not a thing wrong with it. Ditto the 350' span of 1/4" poly that holds up my 160m loop. The big trees that I'm using for supports really whip in high winds, so it's not like this rope is living on Easy Street. regards, Ross ve6pdq 54o 45' N 113o 20' W -- Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- rwa@cs.athabascau.ca From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:03 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!ghiscox From: "George L. Hiscox" Subject: Re: Aircraft control cable for dipole? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: ghiscox@netcom19.netcom.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <809291797.17618@pinetree.microserve.com> <41j2us$3gp@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <41j6sl$ef@news.azstarnet.com> <41l40e$qgn@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 19:47:05 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b6 (Windows; I; 16bit) Lines: 17 I think it might be more a matter of uv radiation than it is air quality. I have read about some experiments done on parachute nylon for the Apollo program. A surprisingly short exposure to uv radiation resulted in a 50% reduction in the strength of the material! Now if you were going to hang anything up in the air here in the Los Angeles Basin the air would probably eat it in short order. I think the guy who brought this topic up is from AZ where the air is still clean and the sun is strong. -- | George L. Hiscox | Very funny Scotty... Now | | ghiscox@netcom.com | beam down my clothes !!! | | WA6RIK @ WB6YMH.#socal.ca.usa.na | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Aircraft control cable for dipole? Date: 26 Aug 1995 00:38:54 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 17 Message-ID: <41lqeu$heq@news.azstarnet.com> References: <809291797.17618@pinetree.microserve.com> <41j2us$3gp@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <41j6sl$ef@news.azstarnet.com> <41l40e$qgn@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite98.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) wrote: >What do you folks down there use for air? [snip] It's called sunshine . These materials are very susceptible to degradation due to UV. No worry about mildew tho... > >regards, >Ross ve6pdq >54o 45' N 113o 20' W >-- >Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- rwa@cs.athabascau.ca 73, Wes From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Aircraft control cable for dipole? Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 12:28:56 GMT Message-ID: <1386961695-950825052856@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 18 -> -> mkeitz@bev.net (Mike Keitz) wrote: -> -> >Use nylon rope rather than polypropylene. Nylon will last for a lon -> >time, just one season in the sun can ruin polypropylene. I don't -> >know about polyester. -> -> Polyester (Dacron) supposedly has a much greater resistance to UV tha -> either nylon or polyproylene. It's difficult to find, but The Radio -> Works does sell various sizes. They also have a Dacron/Kevlar blend. I am using a jute rope on a couple of dipoles I have up here in Arizona and they are in fine shape and have been up for over a year. It was cheap and what I had on hand. Here in Parker, AZ., we get alot of sun! Jim, WA6OFT jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: gsoderli@vancouver.glenayre.COM (Soderling, Greg) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Antenna Modelling Software Date: 24 Aug 95 16:39:00 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 6 Message-ID: <303CABBA@gvnsmtp> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu Has anyone used AWAS for Windows? sold by Artech House. How does it compare to Elnec, Eznec or Antenna Optimizer. 73 de Greg VE7SOD, Vancouver B.C. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.cerf.net!ni1.ni.net!xband.ni.net!user From: blanton@ni.net (J. L. Blanton) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Axial Mode Helix Antenna feeding a Parabola: Focal Point? Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 14:26:53 -0800 Organization: Network Intensive Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <41fpom$fl4@news.doit.wisc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xband.ni.net In article <41fpom$fl4@news.doit.wisc.edu>, Kevin Shea wrote: > I'm building a backfire helix antenna to feed a 1 meter dish for 1700 MHz > (weather satellites.) I found some good articles and I have Kraus's book > but I haven't been able to figure out where the antenna should be in > relation to the dish focal point. I've seen some references to the fact > that the phase center is not the tip(or end) of the antenna but further > down. Several of things you should take into account: 1. The beamwidth of the helix needs to be wide enough to illuminate the reflector. This means that the helix should probably be relatively short (maybe 2 turns or so depending on the focal length). A side benefit is that a short helix has a broader bandwidth than a longer helix (if you're interested in using this setup for any other applications besides weather satellites). 2. Remember that the sense of circularity will reverse upon reflection from the dish. 3. Positioning the helix at the focal point shouldn't be too critical. Allow provisions for adjustment of the feed position and experiment a little to optimize it. I'd probably start with the longitudinal center of the helix at the focal point and work from there. Best of luck, Lee Blanton, WA8YBT/6 Temecula, CA From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!dircon!usenet From: jmaples@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Julian Maples) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: B&C Coil Whip Radio antenna: 168 -174 mhz Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Organization: The Direct Connection (Call 0181 297 2200 for info) Lines: 3 Message-ID: <41pclc$1vu@newsgate.dircon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ad008.pool.dircon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.38 Does anyone know where I can get one of these for a Pye Pocket Phone 70? From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!DIALix!brisbane.DIALix.oz.au!not-for-mail From: mkelly@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au (Murray Kelly) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: baluns, should they b Date: 27 Aug 1995 23:01:11 +1000 Organization: DIALix Services, Brisbane, Australia. Lines: 13 Sender: mkelly@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au Message-ID: <41pqan$mjj$1@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au> References: <19950822.n64@paonline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mkelly@brisbane.dialix.oz.au OK. Here's a wild card. To all those who don't like or need a balun Ignore this. If you want to suppress the feed-line radiation. Why not incorporate the 'choke' effect into the coax itself? Add a little (1-2% ferrite) into the outer jacket of the cable plastic? A little would go a long way here. What better way to stop RF currents flowing on the outside 'skin' of the shield? You can't get any closer to the place where the RF flows and the cost would be minimal. Murray Kelly. vk4aok. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: baluns, should they b Date: 27 Aug 1995 11:37:40 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 18 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41q3g4$7eq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41pqan$mjj$1@brisbane.DIALix.oz.au> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com >If you want to suppress the feed-line radiation. Why not incorporate >the 'choke' effect into the coax itself? Add a little (1-2% ferrite) >into the outer jacket of the cable plastic? A little would go a long way here. Hi Murray, I can think of several things that may be potential problems. 1.) The best mix depends on impedance of the parallel current source 2.) If the "core" is too long resonance effects take place that can change the impedance and make things worse 3.) The balun needs to be placed at the most stragic spot and not randomly distributed 4.) The core material is more effective when concentrated in one spot Why not just use a cheap air wound choke? 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 15:17:51 GMT Lines: 13 Message-ID: <809277478.13565@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <41fup2$nur@maureen.teleport.com> <41g6ul$56@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 This thread has been mostly concerned with 50 ohm *resonant* antennas, particularly relating to the use of choke baluns. So the point isn't lost on anyone who came in late, I want to mention that choke baluns may not be appropriate if the dipole's feedpoint reactance is very high, such as occurs when using non-resonant lengths. Under these conditions, the impedance of the balun may not be sufficient to block the RF on the shield, and the balun can incur significant loss as a result of currents flowing through it. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.iii.net!iii2.iii.net!not-for-mail From: sefranek@iii2.iii.net (Thomas C Sefranek) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 26 Aug 1995 19:19:19 -0400 Organization: iii.net Lines: 20 Message-ID: <41oa5n$bdv@iii2.iii.net> References: <1995Aug21.175731.21932@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <41brf1$iro@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: iii2.iii.net Time for Tom to step in (it). Is it too simple, or am I missing something? A ZERO impedance feed cannot have an exciting voltage node... with NO excitation voltage there is NO current introduced... A zero impedance feed refelect PERFECTLY the power applied... O.K. Tom? (I know you know this, I'm hoping this help others!) I Tom (Forest Gump) think it's time to get back to Cecil's vertical with 1000 SWR... (Cecil you forgot the ground resistance term!) (You just can't get it that high [fortunately]) Tom, Cecil say's Gary's mother wears... (Ducking out the bar room door) -- Thomas C. J. Sefranek WA1RHP Work: 508-425-2200 From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.iii.net!iii2.iii.net!not-for-mail From: sefranek@iii2.iii.net (Thomas C Sefranek) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 26 Aug 1995 19:23:58 -0400 Organization: iii.net Lines: 12 Message-ID: <41oaee$bha@iii2.iii.net> References: <40qikf$o2a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <1995Aug20.145346.16420@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: iii2.iii.net Aw Shucks Roy, Now you done it, you posted a factual, helpfull, non-humorous answer. Confusing the heck out of us (Gumps). Personally I like the others better... I still want dibs on the royalties of the power producing antenna's. Tom -- Thomas C. J. Sefranek WA1RHP Work: 508-425-2200 From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 27 Aug 1995 18:54:38 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 18 Message-ID: <41qf1e$7j2@maureen.teleport.com> References: <809277478.13565@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx08-52.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) ; jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: ; This thread has been mostly concerned with 50 ohm *resonant* antennas, ; particularly relating to the use of choke baluns. So the point isn't ; lost on anyone who came in late, I want to mention that choke baluns ; may not be appropriate if the dipole's feedpoint reactance is very ; high, such as occurs when using non-resonant lengths. Under these ; conditions, the impedance of the balun may not be sufficient to block ; the RF on the shield, and the balun can incur significant loss as a ; result of currents flowing through it. True. And "voltage" baluns can be worse yet, since they place an impdance across the terminals. When the terminal impedance is high, this shunt balun impedance can be a major cause of loss and/or mismatch. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: drted@ix.netcom.com (Ted Viens) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: BCB Interference on HF Date: 25 Aug 1995 05:45:17 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 32 Message-ID: <41jo1d$4vh@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <41jbk5$117@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-hou8-14.ix.netcom.com In <41jbk5$117@newsbf02.news.aol.com> elekktron1@aol.com (Elekktron1) writes: > > I have a 70-ft. horizontal antenna strung about 15-20 ft, up between a >tree and my roof. The downlead is a 20-guage hook-up wire about 50 ft. to >my receiver. The reception is much louder than before when I was using a >too-low too short horizontal. The problem is that now I also get a lot of >Broadcast band interference-both AM and FM. How can I reduce this--maybe >switch to coax for downlead? Use a better grounding system? Right now I'm >using a thin wire connected to a cold water pipe. Please share your ideas >on this. ---- This is what I did... First, I bought three little boxes from I. C. E. Engineering: a long wire balun, a low pass filter and a BCB bandstop filter. Ignoring the rampant discussions of Baluns, I used the long wire balun to conveniently adapt the antenna to coax. Inside, I ran the coax into the VHF low pass filter (cut-off somewhere above 30 mHz) to remove local FM and TV signals. Then I run the signal through the Broadcast Band bandstop filter. This attenuates the MW locals to near the strong DX signals. Now most signals are near the same level, AGC works well and no local leviathan signals are mixing from DC to microwave... -- Bye... Ted.. Deep in the Heart of the Armpits of Houston, Texas... From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: elekktron1@aol.com (Elekktron1) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: BCB Interference on HF Date: 24 Aug 1995 22:13:25 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 8 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41jbk5$117@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: elekktron1@aol.com (Elekktron1) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I have a 70-ft. horizontal antenna strung about 15-20 ft, up between a tree and my roof. The downlead is a 20-guage hook-up wire about 50 ft. to my receiver. The reception is much louder than before when I was using a too-low too short horizontal. The problem is that now I also get a lot of Broadcast band interference-both AM and FM. How can I reduce this--maybe switch to coax for downlead? Use a better grounding system? Right now I'm using a thin wire connected to a cold water pipe. Please share your ideas on this. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:12 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!ddi2.digital.net!usenet From: russ@gslink.net (Russ Leblanc) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: BCB Interference on HF Date: 27 Aug 1995 18:29:00 GMT Organization: Hurricane DX Club Lines: 34 Message-ID: <41qdhc$1l7@ddi2.digital.net> References: <41jbk5$117@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <41jo1d$4vh@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: @204.215.242.151 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.4 In article <41jo1d$4vh@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, drted@ix.netcom.com (Ted Viens) says: > >In <41jbk5$117@newsbf02.news.aol.com> elekktron1@aol.com (Elekktron1) >writes: >> >> I have a 70-ft. horizontal antenna strung about 15-20 ft, up between >This is what I did... First, I bought three little boxes from I. C. E. >Engineering: a long wire balun, a low pass filter and a BCB bandstop >filter. Ignoring the rampant discussions of Baluns, I used the long >wire balun to conveniently adapt the antenna to coax. Inside, I ran >the coax into the VHF low pass filter (cut-off somewhere above 30 mHz) >to remove local FM and TV signals. Then I run the signal through the >Broadcast Band bandstop filter. This attenuates the MW locals to near >the strong DX signals. Now most signals are near the same level, AGC >works well and no local leviathan signals are mixing from DC to >microwave... Likewise not to start a balun argument , you can do the above three for quite cheaply with a handful of cheap inductors, caps, a ferrite core, and some wire. The plans for the filters appear in the "Using Your Phone Line as an Antenna" post that frequently appears on rec.radio. shortwave, and John Doty has posted plans for a simple transformer for matching a longwire to coax, likewise on r.s.s. I can look them up on my hard drive and post them for you if you'd like. I live 1 mile from one AM tower, and 2 miles away from another, and the highpass filter works fine on killing the overload/intermod problems. Going back to the dials, Russ From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:13 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpcvsnz!news From: Your_Name_Here Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Sender: news@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com (News ) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 01:06:13 GMT To: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <809280437.14974@pinetree.microserve.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpspkts.spk.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Lines: 22 Hello. I'm using the HF6V and the AP8A. I have them both elevated approximately 15 feet, using a simple two per band 1/4 wave radial system. My ground stinks here (rocky)...I've found that raising the verticals really helped me. In my experience, the AP8A outperformed the HF6V. The HF6V APPEARS to hold up better in the wind, but really neither have ever caused me troubles. I do read that the GAPs buckle in the center...they require extensive guying. I phase the two together and get multihop performance comparable to my friends (three blocks away, same terrain) 80' tower and three element wide spaced 20 meter beam. God, I hope that you don't have power lines near by, 'cause if you do, your ears will cringe from the high noise! Marc From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!octel.com!usenet From: Peter Slocum Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: 25 Aug 1995 15:32:42 GMT Organization: Octel Communications Corp Lines: 83 Message-ID: <41kqeq$c4i@info.eng.octel.com> References: <809280437.14974@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: guinness.eng.octel.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-------------------------------254961388113432" X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-URL: news:DDuDqD.BMG@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------------------254961388113432 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Marc, Can you email me directly on the attached. I tried to reply to you but e-mail to "Your_Name_Here " gets understandably returned as not deliverable. Thanks ... Peter, KE6VMJ peterjs@aol.com ============================================================ Your_Name_Here wrote: >Hello. > >I'm using the HF6V and the AP8A. I have them both elevated approximately >15 feet, using a simple two per band 1/4 wave radial system. > >My ground stinks here (rocky)...I've found that raising the verticals >really helped me. In my experience, the AP8A outperformed the HF6V. The >HF6V APPEARS to hold up better in the wind, but really neither have ever >caused me troubles. I do read that the GAPs buckle in the center...they >require extensive guying. > >I phase the two together and get multihop performance comparable to my >friends (three blocks away, same terrain) 80' tower and three element >wide spaced 20 meter beam. > > >God, I hope that you don't have power lines near by, 'cause if you do, >your ears will cringe from the high noise! > > >Marc > ---------------------------------254961388113432 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain From: Your_Name_Here Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 01:06:13 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: References: <809280437.14974@pinetree.microserve.com> Hello. I'm using the HF6V and the AP8A. I have them both elevated approximately 15 feet, using a simple two per band 1/4 wave radial system. My ground stinks here (rocky)...I've found that raising the verticals really helped me. In my experience, the AP8A outperformed the HF6V. The HF6V APPEARS to hold up better in the wind, but really neither have ever caused me troubles. I do read that the GAPs buckle in the center...they require extensive guying. I phase the two together and get multihop performance comparable to my friends (three blocks away, same terrain) 80' tower and three element wide spaced 20 meter beam. God, I hope that you don't have power lines near by, 'cause if you do, your ears will cringe from the high noise! Marc ---------------------------------254961388113432-- From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!psuvm!bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!express.ior.com!news From: Joe Pfeuffer Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: 25 Aug 1995 01:45:25 GMT Organization: Internet On-Ramp, Inc. Lines: 8 Message-ID: <41j9vl$4ia@express.ior.com> References: <809280437.14974@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs3-11.ior.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com Jack: I have had an AP8 up for over five years in the ice, snow, heat, etc with no problems and pretty good performance (for a vertical). 73 From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.pgh.net!w2xo.pgh.pa.us!durham From: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: 25 Aug 1995 15:47:32 GMT Organization: Pittsburgh OnLine, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <41krak$ik2@dropit.pgh.net> References: <809280437.14974@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: w2xo.pgh.pa.us X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] WB3U (jackl@pinetree.microserve.com) wrote: (Questions about commercial verticals snipped..no experience with these) Just an overall comment about verticals. Anthing which reduces the current flowing into the ground system is usually good (excepting ohmic resistance!). Center or top feeding/loading may accomplish this. The idea is that the ground system is not perfect but has ohmic losses. More current=more loss. The current in the antenna does the radiating. Raising the current maximum higher off the ground by top loading does two things..keeps down the ohmic losses in the ground system and gets the radiated field up away from lossy stuff like dirt, trees, etc. : Finally, I seem to remember reading about a trick concerning laying : radials in the ground. It had something to with with the use of a : certain tool (edger?) to make the job easier. Anyone know? This may be overkill for a ham installation, but the way I have put in radials for AM broadcast towers is with a subsoiler, a kind of plow that has a narrow blade that slits the soil, ending in a larger "bulb" that plows an underground "tunnel" of sorts (maybe 2 inches in diameter. You weld or fasten a pipe to the back of the subsoiler, bending the bottom of the pipe toward the rear and cutting it off even with the "bulb" part of the plow. Then you feed the wire in the top of the pipe. You can rig up a bracket to hold a wire spool on the tractor. It lays a radial slick as can be. A small stake to fasten the end of the wire to is driven at the center of the radial system (under the antenna center). I used an old '32 Ford Tractor. I guess a large garder tractor would work. Doing it by hand would be rough work! -Jim Durham From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.netins.net!usenet From: crcarlson@netins.net Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: 26 Aug 1995 02:22:06 GMT Organization: INS Information Services, Des Moines, IA USA Lines: 15 Message-ID: <009956B9.4AC5D5DE@netins.net> Reply-To: crcarlson@netins.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ins.netins.net Since I have only ever used verticals, (and a few odd dipoles, zepps and random length wires) I have an opinion on this one! One of the best verticals I ever used was an onl ....oops...I meant old Hygain 18V or whatever they call their all band vertical with the little coil at the base. It was free from a friend of mine who took pity on a poor, new novice with no antenna. I stuck it in the ground so that it was just 5-6 inches from the rain gutters on the house. (When we had no wind, otherwise it touched the gutter at times) That was before I had the concept of "radials" quite figured out so I grounded it to a 8 INCH (wow!) pipe in the ground. Then I hooked up my 75 watt Hallicrafters HT-40 xmtr and Heath reciever. On 40meter novice cw band in the summer, at night, one of the first stations I worked was PY8NBO. Of course this kind of thing can only be done by a 19 year old novice. Now that I am older and wiser and have a rig with more computers built in than the old Apollo spacecraft I can prove that IT CAN'T BE DONE1111 Surely there must be some hams out there with an even better story than this. I would love to hear it!!!Really! 73 from WB0FDJ From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:17 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 15:36:11 GMT Lines: 9 Message-ID: <809451417.16841@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <009956B9.4AC5D5DE@netins.net> <41ncl8$enq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Just wanted to mention that I've found a location for the dipole that will get me through the winter, so I've won a reprieve (until spring). Many thanks to everyone who posted advice and sent me e-mail. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: 26 Aug 1995 10:55:36 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 9 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41ncl8$enq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <009956B9.4AC5D5DE@netins.net> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I always thought the best HF vertical was the Hygain Hytower. I always envied people that had them. But all verticals really need a good ground system. The ground independent verticals never seem to work as well as a conventional vertical the same size with a modest ground. I have a ground mounted top loaded 35 foot vertical with 80 radials on 80 meters. It ties my dipole (at 130 feet) into Europe from the Atlanta area. Think about that! 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:18 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!world!news From: jjmartin@world.std.com (Jim Martin) Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Message-ID: Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Nntp-Posting-Host: world.std.com Reply-To: wk1v@hamradio.com Organization: WK1V X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55 References: <009956B9.4AC5D5DE@netins.net> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:35:37 GMT Lines: 31 crcarlson@netins.net sed: :>...One of the best verticals I ever used was an onl....oops...I meant old Hygain :>18V or whatever they call their all band vertical with the little coil at the base... Yup, that was THE antenna. I used an 18V from 1981 till 1983 and achieved WAS/CW with it. It was a great antenna. I even by-passed the coil and used a transmatch in the shack and it still worked greatly. The only radials I had for my 18V was my double-bazooka dipole. The antenna was installed on a 50' pushup mast...should have kept the thing but I went to a mini-quad...remember the HQ-1? Worked great on 6...oops I'm digressing...then I went to my current Rohn 25G and a tri-band Mosely TA-33. Sure wish I could put my tower up...I'm using an R5 right now and a G5RV. I really like the R5. My only problem now is I live in the city. The noise is horrendous at times so I switch back and forth between the R5 and the G5RV. My DSP-59+ helps a lot too...mainly on cw...it is mediocre (sp?) on fone. My $.02 worth. Cheers & 73 -------------------------------------------------------------- |Jim Martin, WK1V | I speak for no one...Not | |Lowell, Massachusetts | even for myself! | |USAF (Ret)ained | #include "std_disclaimer.h" | |ex: KA5MWD/N1CLS/KB1LW/HL9ZF | Intentionally Left Blank | -------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: bdavidso@nyx.cs.du.edu (bill davidson) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Best VHF antenna analyzer ; archives Date: 24 Aug 1995 20:43:28 -0600 Organization: /usr/lib/news/organi[sz]ation Lines: 10 Message-ID: <41jdcg$ocf@nyx.cs.du.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx.cs.du.edu I'm sure there must be an archive somewhere with volumes on the various antenna tuning gadgets out there. Can someone point me at them? Oh, while you're here, if you have a favorite way to tune & test primarily 2m antennas, I'd love to hear of it. Occasionally 440 & higher comes up as well. Thanks in advance. /s/ Bill From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!moritz From: moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best VHF antenna analyzer ; archives Date: 25 Aug 1995 16:03:49 GMT Organization: Comp.Center (RUS), U of Stuttgart, FRG Lines: 19 Message-ID: <41ks95$1rq4@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <41jdcg$ocf@nyx.cs.du.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de >Oh, while you're here, if you have a favorite way to tune & test primarily >2m antennas, I'd love to hear of it. Bill, Whereas it makes a lot of sense to use a antenna analyzer for HF (the impe- dance of your antenna is affected by the surroundings) there is not much point in using anything than a SWR meter on VHF. My favoured way of tuning VHF antennas is to get a good and accurate description and to adhere closely to the dimensions given. The SWR meter is really only needed to check if something went wrong. Remember that no analyzer tells you if the antenna achieves the desired gain. 73, Moritz DL5UH From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!senior.nectec.or.th!news.mahidol.ac.th!mucc!srwhm From: srwhm@mucc.mahidol.ac.th (Wanna Hemasuk - SRNS) Newsgroups: alt.cellular-phone-tech,rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc,alt.radio.digital,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Cell Phones & RFI affecting computer systems? Followup-To: alt.cellular-phone-tech,rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc,alt.radio.digital,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: 25 Aug 1995 15:18:56 GMT Organization: Mahidol University, Thailand Lines: 23 Message-ID: <41kpl0$96n@mars.mahidol.ac.th> References: <41a84t$2o9@maureen.teleport.com> <41b9hb$hqg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.14.162.1 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: grape.epix.net alt.cellular-phone-tech:5837 rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc:10196 alt.radio.digital:988 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13312 LarryFinch (larryfinch@aol.com) wrote: : >Hi, : > Does anyone have information on Cell Phone RFI, and how it might affect : large : >computer systems utilizing VLSI and high density SMT designs? There was : > : If it is truly a cellular repeater it is very unlikely to be the problem. : Cells are low power -- typically 100 watts or less. More than a few feet : away the energy level will be lower than what comes out of the microwave : in the cafeteria. I use 1 watt 900mhz cellular and 5 watts 145mhz HAM handy 2-3 hours a day for 5 years. Dose anyone have information about eyes and brain effect . thanks wanna H. -- ************************************************************* * Wanna Hemasuk Siriraj Hospital Bangkok Thailand * * srwhm@mucc.mahidol.ac.th Mahidol University * ************************************************************* From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:21 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.ptd.net!news From: Dave Skarbowski Subject: Computer model these for me please... X-Nntp-Posting-Host: cs1-15.hol.ptd.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: news@postoffice.ptd.net (News Master) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:35:36 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; Linux 1.2.1 i486) X-Url: news:rec.radio.amateur.antenna Lines: 26 I presently have a full size 75 meter dipole fed with 450 ohm line at 65 feet broadside to Europe. I can easly work into most of Europe using 1 kw and listening on a 600 ft beverage. I'd like to see if a delta loop or a ground plane verticle (both full size, of course) would out perform the dipole. Could some with a good modeling program help me out? I have an old version of mininec that doesn't deal with antennas close to the ground (or so I'm told) too well. Here's the comparison I'd like: 1. Dipole at 65 feet. 2. Elevated ground plane with four radials; feedpoint at 15 feet. Radials droop to 10 feet. 3. Delta loop; equalateral, bottom up at 15 feet, feed at bottom corner and/or feed half way up one side. I'm interested in radiation at 20 deg above horz (or at the angle YOU think is best for DX...lots of discussion on this..). My ground would be considered poor here in eastern PA. And, oh yeah, I'm only interested in 75/80 meters. DX on the higher bands just isn't much of a challange :) I know this is a tall order but TIA. Any other comments on these antennas and their performance is definetly welcomed. After all the DX season is almost here! Dave, n2fam From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:22 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!ghiscox From: "George L. Hiscox" Subject: Re: Computer model these for me please... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: skarbows@ptd.net Sender: ghiscox@netcom6.netcom.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 17:21:51 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b6 (Windows; I; 16bit) Lines: 18 W7EL (who reads and posts to this newsgroup) offers an easy to use and economical version of NEC-2 called EZNEC that will run on a 386 or better PC with a numeric processor. His email is w7el@teleport.com if you want to talk to him about obtaining your own copy of the software. It's VERY absorbing if you like to play with antenna parameters. I would like to take on your project myself, but work doesn't permit it right now. 73 and good luck! George -- | George L. Hiscox | Very funny Scotty... Now | | ghiscox@netcom.com | beam down my clothes !!! | | WA6RIK @ WB6YMH.#socal.ca.usa.na | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.ti.com!sislnews.csc.ti.com!usenet From: oops@msg.ti.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Copper Tube "J-Pole" Date: 27 Aug 1995 16:09:12 GMT Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 24 Message-ID: <41q5b8$m3j@superb.csc.ti.com> References: <41etrr$cnk_001@ptl1.jaring.my> <8AFE232.09EF0017A0.uuout@kandy.com> Reply-To: oops@msg.ti.com NNTP-Posting-Host: mcarson.sc.ti.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.09 In <8AFE232.09EF0017A0.uuout@kandy.com>, stephen.king@kandy.com (STEPHEN KING) writes: >I have a copper tube "J-Pole" dual band antenna for 2 meter/70cm. > >I would like to know what the maximum power and what the gain is for >this type of antenna. > >73s >KE6WEZ >--- Not meaning to change the subject here, but I have a question regarding your 2m/70cm j-pole design. Does this antenna require two feedlines (i.e. 1 for 2m and another for 70cm)? If not, would you mind posting the plans? I have several plans I've accumulated over time but none of them address combining the two feedlines into one. Guess I could use a duplexer to accomplish this -- but only if it's necessary. Thanks and 73 Mitchell KC5MKW Std. disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!holmes.sgate.com!jekyll.sgate.com!donovanf From: Frank Donovan Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.scanner,alt.radio.scanner Subject: Re: Discone Mounted Upside Down? Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 23:54:56 -0400 Organization: Southgate Internet Host Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <41oo77$gm@sulla.cyberstore.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: jekyll.sgate.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <41oo77$gm@sulla.cyberstore.ca> Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13345 rec.radio.scanner:31229 alt.radio.scanner:21056 Gary, There are many types of conical antennas, the discone being an example of a very efficient broadband conical vertical. As you correcty point out, a discone has the disk at the top! Several manufacturers, such as TCI and Granger sell cone antennas that may match the brief description you provided. Their theory of operation differs from the discone, and they are probably somewhat less efficient. 73! Frank W3LPL donovanf@sgate.com On 27 Aug 1995 Gary_Jacek@Cyberstore.NET wrote: > Hi > > I recently drove past a building in town with what looks like a discone on > the roof. It appears to be mounted upside down. The 'disk' being at the > bottom and the open end of the cone at the top. > > I'm just curious whether this has any effect on performance. > > ..Gary From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!usenet From: Gary_Jacek@Cyberstore.NET Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.scanner,alt.radio.scanner Subject: Discone Mounted Upside Down? Followup-To: rec.radio.scanner Date: 27 Aug 1995 03:19:03 GMT Organization: Cyberstore Systems, Inc. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <41oo77$gm@sulla.cyberstore.ca> Reply-To: Gary_Jacek@Cyberstore.NET NNTP-Posting-Host: yvr-ppp-44.cyberstore.ca X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.09 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13352 rec.radio.scanner:31244 alt.radio.scanner:21060 Hi I recently drove past a building in town with what looks like a discone on the roof. It appears to be mounted upside down. The 'disk' being at the bottom and the open end of the cone at the top. I'm just curious whether this has any effect on performance. ..Gary From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!gatech!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.sas.ab.ca!fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca!morganp From: morganp@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Does anyone have a design for an antenna rotator? Date: 26 Aug 1995 04:21:20 GMT Organization: Edmonton Freenet, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Lines: 8 Message-ID: <41m7g0$911@news.sas.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.3] Does anyone have a design for a rotator? -- 73 & ttyl Morgan Patterson \\/// Internet: morganp@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (o o) Ham Radio: VE6MRP (_) "Your Computer will self destruct in..5..4..3..2..1..KABOOM!!!" ----oOO-----OOo--------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!satisfied.apocalypse.org!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Experience with SGC ? Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 01:39:11 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <3vch53$i29@chnews.ch.intel.com> <41ad0u$pq6@chnews.ch.intel.com> <41eh4i$fpu@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1g.delphi.com X-To: writes: >I have a metaphysical question that I don't know the answer to: Metaphysics yet? Well, where is the dividing line between "marketing hype" and just plain old BS? On your two inches of wire, if each day you cut it in half, how long will it take for there to be no more wire? regards. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!sanjuan.amtsgi.bc.ca!salmon!clinton.peebles From: clinton.peebles@saloon.bcbbs.net (Clinton Peebles) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Half-square antenna performance? Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 12:34:00 GMT Message-ID: <9508241412255072@saloon.bcbbs.net> Organization: Salmon Siding Saloon BBS 604-357-9942 Distribution: world References: <418nog$icr@gold.tc.umn.edu> Lines: 29 J>I am looking to improve my 40 meter DX sig to Europe. Am considering a J>half-square. I have several 55 ft pine trees to support it. Any J>experience with this type of antenna? You only need 2 trees to support it. I have one built, I just have to get one end up in the air. I got my Dacron rope yesterday, so maybe this weekend. Do you have the formulas for the lengths? I'll give them to ya anyways... 492/F ------------------------------------- <----feedpoint. Centre of | | the coax | | goes to | | 240/F the | | horiz. | | wire. | | I hung lead weights from the vertical wires. ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ» º Clinton Peebles VE7-KNL º º SYSOP - Salmon Siding Saloon BBS - 604-357-9942 º º Internet: Clinton.Peebles@saloon.bcbbs.net º º Packet Radio: VE7KNL@VE7CW.#SEBC.BC.CAN.NOAM º ÈÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍͼ --- þ QMPro 1.53 þ We're all just crash-test dummies... From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:27 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!ncrcae!news From: TSKELTON <> Subject: Re: Half-square antenna performance? Message-ID: Sender: news@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.ATTGIS.COM (news) Reply-To: (TSKELTON) Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions, Columbia SC X-Newsreader: DiscussIT 2.0 for MS Windows [AT&T Software Products Division] References: <418nog$icr@gold.tc.umn.edu><9508241412255072@saloon.bcbbs.net> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 19:21:38 GMT Lines: 62 ==========Clinton Peebles, 8/24/95========== J>I am looking to improve my 40 meter DX sig to Europe. Am considering a J>half-square. I have several 55 ft pine trees to support it. Any J>experience with this type of antenna? You only need 2 trees to support it. I have one built, I just have to get one end up in the air. I got my Dacron rope yesterday, so maybe this weekend. Do you have the formulas for the lengths? I'll give them to ya anyways... 492/F ------------------------------------- <----feedpoint. Centre of | | the coax | | goes to | | 240/F the | | horiz. | | wire. | | I hung lead weights from the vertical wires. ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ» º Clinton Peebles VE7-KNL º ------------------- I've finally gotten around to learning ELNEC (v 3), and this is one of the first antennas I've been modeling. The numbers Clinton showed are great to start. Using ELNEC, making a single pass that showed the resonant freq around 7.3 MHz when I calculated it with 7.000 MHz, and then lengthening the vertical wires by 1 foot and the horizontal phasing line by 2 feet gave me the following SWR vs freq values (YES, I KNOW SWR IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT INDICATOR OF ANTENNA PERFORMANCE BUT MY DESIGN GOAL WAS TO HAVE A FLAT MATCH TO 50 OHM COAX IN ADDITION TO THE PATTERN/TAKEOFF ANGLE): 7.000 MHz, SWR 1.87 7.050 MHz, SWR1.18 7.100 MHz, SWR 1.35 7.150 MHz, SWR 2.10 7.200 MHz, SWR 3.12 7.250 MHz, SWR 4.44 7.300 MHz, SWR 6.05 It looks like the 2:1 SWR bandwidth is about 150 Khz on 40 meters. I modeled it with the ends of the vertical elements 10 ft off the ground over 'real ground'. The gain was around 5.5 dBi (don't start that thread again, pse) with a take-off angle of less than 20 degrees. I will be constructing this antenna in the next couple of weekends and will report what I find. Since the antenna in my previous QTH (we just moved) was a 2 element Cushcraft 402CD at 75 ft, I'm trying not to have my expectations set too high.. If anyone DOES have some performance comparisons (A vs B, not just 'it worked' or 'I could work Europe with 50 watts) please let us know. thanks! From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:28 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!ncrcae!news From: Tom WB4iUX Subject: Re: Half-square antenna performance? Message-ID: Sender: news@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.ATTGIS.COM (news) Reply-To: Tom.Skelton@ClemsonSC.ATTGIS.COM (TSKELTON) Organization: ATT GIS X-Newsreader: DiscussIT 2.0 for MS Windows [AT&T Software Products Division] References: <418nog$icr@gold.tc.umn.edu><9508241412255072@saloon.bcbbs.net> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 19:46:34 GMT Lines: 73 ==========TSKELTON, 8/25/95========== ==========Clinton Peebles, 8/24/95========== J>I am looking to improve my 40 meter DX sig to Europe. Am considering a J>half-square. I have several 55 ft pine trees to support it. Any J>experience with this type of antenna? You only need 2 trees to support it. I have one built, I just have to get one end up in the air. I got my Dacron rope yesterday, so maybe this weekend. Do you have the formulas for the lengths? I'll give them to ya anyways... 492/F ------------------------------------- <----feedpoint. Centre of | | the coax | | goes to | | 240/F the | | horiz. | | wire. | | I hung lead weights from the vertical wires. ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ» º Clinton Peebles VE7-KNL º ------------------- I've finally gotten around to learning ELNEC (v 3), and this is one of the first antennas I've been modeling. The numbers Clinton showed are great to start. Using ELNEC, making a single pass that showed the resonant freq around 7.3 MHz when I calculated it with 7.000 MHz, and then lengthening the vertical wires by 1 foot and the horizontal phasing line by 2 feet gave me the following SWR vs freq values (YES, I KNOW SWR IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT INDICATOR OF ANTENNA PERFORMANCE BUT MY DESIGN GOAL WAS TO HAVE A FLAT MATCH TO 50 OHM COAX IN ADDITION TO THE PATTERN/TAKEOFF ANGLE): 7.000 MHz, SWR 1.87 7.050 MHz, SWR1.18 7.100 MHz, SWR 1.35 7.150 MHz, SWR 2.10 7.200 MHz, SWR 3.12 7.250 MHz, SWR 4.44 7.300 MHz, SWR 6.05 It looks like the 2:1 SWR bandwidth is about 150 Khz on 40 meters. I modeled it with the ends of the vertical elements 10 ft off the ground over 'real ground'. The gain was around 5.5 dBi (don't start that thread again, pse) with a take-off angle of less than 20 degrees. I will be constructing this antenna in the next couple of weekends and will report what I find. Since the antenna in my previous QTH (we just moved) was a 2 element Cushcraft 402CD at 75 ft, I'm trying not to have my expectations set too high.. If anyone DOES have some performance comparisons (A vs B, not just 'it worked' or 'I could work Europe with 50 watts) please let us know. thanks! --------- Sorry ya'll...my system crashed when this was sending.. my .sig didn't get sent ... 73, Tom WB4iUX will it work this time??? : **************************************** DX IS!!!! BE A BELIEVER !!!!!! **************************************** From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:29 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Half-square antenna performance? Date: 26 Aug 1995 10:51:44 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 9 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41nce0$emf@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com > The gain was around 5.5 dBi (don't start that thread again, pse) >with a take-off angle of less than 20 degrees. Tom, Gee that's not much gain. What does a dipole the height over the same soil model? Where is it fed at? 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: kb0qan@netcom.COM (tim woo) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #370 Date: 25 Aug 95 16:27:55 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 4 Message-ID: References: <199508251130.EAA16319@mail.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu unsubscribe Ham-Ant kb0qan@netcom.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:35 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!express.ior.com!news From: Joe Pfeuffer Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? Date: 25 Aug 1995 01:43:05 GMT Organization: Internet On-Ramp, Inc. Lines: 5 Message-ID: <41j9r9$4ia@express.ior.com> References: <41ebib$eb4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs3-11.ior.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: peterjs@aol.com I had a simillar problem which was corrected by replacing the 30 meter trap. 73 #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!express.ior.com!news From: Joe Pfeuffer Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: 25 Aug 1995 01:45:25 GMT Organization: Internet On-Ramp, Inc. Lines: 8 Message-ID: <41j9vl$4ia@express.ior.com> References: <809280437.14974@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs3-11.ior.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com Jack: I have had an AP8 up for over five years in the ice, snow, heat, etc with no problems and pretty good performance (for a vertical). 73 #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!camco!sonoma!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-ma From: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode) Newsgroups: alt.christnet.sex,alt.polyamory,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.sex.swingers,alt.sex.wizards,alt.sex,alt.sex.safe Subject: Re: Coercing women into forgoing safe sex procedures Date: 23 Aug 1995 12:46:41 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 18 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41fm1h$n5c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <303a6776.4649524542414c4c0e544e470e4f4348450e4445@fireball.tng Reply-To: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Xref: bunker alt.polyamory:17791 alt.religion.sexuality:2659 alt.sex.swingers:2291 alt.sex.wizards:20607 alt.sex:120262 alt.sex.safe:725 hansmuff@fireball.tng.oche.de (Lutz Heinrichs) writes: >Andrew Laurence wrote: >>teelok writes: >>>Why do so many people say HIV virus. The V stands for virus. >>For the same reason they say UPC code, ATM machine, and PIN number. Because >>they're imprecise. >dont forget the very popular ASCII code... >- Lutz - or the La Brea Tar Pits...or The KLa Fonda Hotel. catherine #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!news.bmi.net!camco!sonoma!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!wcern From: wcern@primenet.com (William Cernansky) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.sex,alt.sex.services,alt.sex.brothels,soc.men,soc.women,soc.culture.israel,alt.current-events.net-abuse Subject: Re: !SICK BIBLICAL VALUES: Here's some more! Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.sex,alt.sex.services,alt.sex.brothels,soc.men,soc.women,soc.culture.israel,alt.current-events.net-abuse Date: 23 Aug 1995 16:56:17 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)395-1010 Lines: 60 Message-ID: <41fmjh$43p@nnrp1.primenet.com> References: <415k79$3vj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <418fiu$6tk@news.scruz.net> < NNTP-Posting-Host: usr1.primenet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: bunker alt.censorship:29128 alt.sex:120263 alt.sex.services:3662 soc.men:103787 soc.women:109534 soc.culture.israel:11769 alt.current-events.net-abu [ONCE AGAIN, followups removed from alt.homosexual and alt.politics.homosexuality] Steven Etienne Buehler (etienne@netcom.com) wrote: : wcern@primenet.com (William Cernansky) wrote: : >I get really tired of hearing the following diatribes: : > 1) "If you want proof of God, just look around you." : You'll note that I have not used such "diatribe" in this discussion. I was referring to a general collection of diatribes (hoping to avoid getting hit with one of them again by a followup - pre-answering the followups, if you will), not you specifically. : > [I have read the Bible and I understand that it is chock-full : > of scientific errors. It contradicts itself in many places, : > and describes the eradication of over 20 million people by the : > Jews alone. It describes and demands sexism. I understand PLENTY.] : The Bible makes no claim to be a science textbook, nor should it be : read as such. I frequently hear the "contradiction" concerning a : round vessel for the Temple whose measurements do not exactly conform : to the mathematical formula for diameter relative to circumference. : Big deal. Well, since the Bible is the supposedly the word of the Supreme and Perfect Being (who, um, admitted that the great flood was a mistake.. oh dang, so admittedly imperfect), any inaccuracy or downright falsehood makes the entire text SUSPECT. : > [Look, you can't prove that the Bible is the Holy Word using its own : > claims that it's the word of God. That's like me saying "I am God. : > Of course I must be, because I am God and I say so."] : But you believe, I assume, that your best friend is your best friend : because he says so. Do I see a double standard? Who says I believe that? I judge my friends on my own terms. My best friends are my best friends because *I* say so. Would that Christians let me choose my path so easily! : >No other religious group outside of Judeo-Christendom has ever offended : >me. I guess that's because the Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists don't demand : >that my government pick my religion for me. Thank Odin for that. : On the contrary, I have great umbrage that the government chooses to : subsidize and give freedom for every religion to be expressed in the : public arena *except* Christianity. A simple review of the ACLU : guidelines could present that very easily. So ACLU guidelines specifically deny Christianity from publicly funded institutions but allow, say, Muslims to force their public schools to hold Muslim services? This appears to be what you are saying; please elucidate. As far as I've seen, no religion may be foisted upon students in a public school. You're free to practice any religion you want - at home, in church, or even school, if you keep it to yourself. The ACLU doesn't prevent Christian kids from praying at lunchtime, does it? -- Bill Cernansky | "I do not find in orthodox Christianity wcern@primenet.com | one redeeming feature." -- Thomas Jefferson #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!camco!sonoma!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-ma From: msseraphim@aol.com (MsSeraphim) Newsgroups: alt.sex.services,alt.sex.brothels,alt.sex.prostitution,alt.sex.wizards,alt.feminism,alt.sex.advocacy Subject: Re: Sex Workers Demand End to "Wars on Whores" Date: 23 Aug 1995 13:01:45 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 12 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41fmtp$ni6@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: Reply-To: msseraphim@aol.com (MsSeraphim) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Xref: bunker alt.sex.services:3663 alt.sex.wizards:20608 alt.feminism:65204 alt.sex.advocacy:174 << SEX WORKERS RIGHTS ORGANIZATION DEMANDS END TO "WARS ON WHORES" THROUGH DECRIMINALIZATION>> I'm glad to see and hear that women are taking a stand against a misguided and immoral national philosophy. **** MsSeraphim "These are very confusing times. For the first time in history a woman is expected to combine: intelligence with a sharp hairdo, a raised consciousness with high heels, and an open, nonsexist relationship with a tanned guy who has a great bod." -- Lynda Bary #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!islander.whidbey.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!bcarh18 Date: 23 Aug 1995 16:17:17 GMT From: org@inch.com (Joe Martini) Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.sex.erotica.marketplace,alt.sex.erotica.market.place,alt.sex.services,alt.sex.escorts.ads,alt.sex.masterbation,alt.sex.wanted,alt. Subject: cmsg cancel Control: cancel Approved: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca Lines: 1 Spam cancelled by clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!news.telebyte.com!multiverse!ragnarok.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!caen!crl.dec.com!bloom-beacon.mit.ed Newsgroups: alt.sex From: cdeturse@idirect.com (Carmen Deturse) Subject: Usenet Ads Message-ID: Organization: Internet Direct, Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: 23 Aug 95 00:15:03 GMT X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.11a X-Nntp-Posting-Host: doom.idirect.com Lines: 8 There seems to be a raging debate on the subject of ads in usenet. I am compiling comments. Do you agree or disagree with advertising in usenet, and why. -- Carmen F. Deturse -- cdeturse@idirect.com Check out our free XXX ADULT PRODUCT Catalog. E-Mail for details. #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!news.telebyte.com!multiverse!ragnarok.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!caen!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.e From: home@home.com (Barrie) Newsgroups: alt.celebrities,alt.binaries.pictures.celebrities,alt.supermodels,alt.models Subject: Re: REQUEST: CAROLINE MUNRO (LAMBS NAVY RUM & BOND GIRL) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 15:10:57 GMT Organization: home Lines: 8 Message-ID: <41eurs$pna@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk> References: <411qtn$me5@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk> <418o7p$ab@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 132.146.29.98 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Xref: bunker alt.celebrities:2367 alt.binaries.pictures.celebrities:9624 alt.supermodels:13388 alt.models:2200 She was really sultry and had a fantastic body. If anyone has any pictures from here calenders, please post in one of these groups. I'm not sure if she did any nude modelling, but if she did and anyone has some, please post them. In article <418o7p$ab@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, maxgorky@aol.com (Max gorky) wrote: >She was also the evil sorceress in Oliver Stone's film "Siezure" Wow! #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!islander.whidbey.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newstf01 From: joe3joe@aol.com (Joe 3 joe) Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.d Subject: cmsg cancel <415ve5$73b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Control: cancel <415ve5$73b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: 23 Aug 1995 10:40:02 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 1 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <-415ve5$73b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: joe3joe@aol.com (Joe 3 joe) NNTP-Posting-Host: newstf01.news.aol.com Please cancel this posting #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!islander.whidbey.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newstf01 From: joe3joe@aol.com (Joe 3 joe) Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.d Subject: cmsg cancel <415ve6$73c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Control: cancel <415ve6$73c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: 23 Aug 1995 10:40:10 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 1 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <-415ve6$73c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: joe3joe@aol.com (Joe 3 joe) NNTP-Posting-Host: newstf01.news.aol.com Please cancel this posting #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!news.telebyte.com!multiverse!hookup!torn!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!bcarh8ab.bnr.ca!news From: Stephen Kunc Newsgroups: soc.culture.portuguese,soc.culture.canada,alt.sex,alt.wired,can.politics,alt.censorship,alt.politics.media,tor.general,can.general,bc.general, Subject: Re: POLICE ANUS RAPED BY BLACK MAN Date: 23 Aug 1995 17:08:51 GMT Organization: bbelt2 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <41fnb3$ie5@bcarh8ab.bnr.ca> References: <40v2gp$d80@steel.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bcarh2d3.bnr.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (X11; I; HP-UX A.09.05 9000/712) X-URL: news:DDrs31.F72@cunews.carleton.ca Xref: bunker soc.culture.portuguese:12697 soc.culture.canada:45749 alt.sex:120265 alt.wired:10533 alt.censorship:29129 alt.politics.media:2008 alt.recover smeece@chat.carleton.ca (Steven Meece) wrote: > >> Your antics are a prime example of the kind of strains a misdirected >> individual (or interest group) can put on a society and it's services. You >> proudly waste resources, but produce no marketable output. You and those >> like you make me sick. >> >> (Want a better Canada? http://www.reform.ca) > >It doesn't surprise me that you would be sickened by the thought of >democracy in action. Just another Reform Party scumbag, I suppose. Gee, well I for one am glad to know that this is where my tax dollars go: into wasted fax paper, deliberately misused government services, financial compensation to fraudulent brain disorders. I'd be horrified if some of the money I pay actually found its way into the educational system or economic projects rather than being petered out providing crack babies like Joe Baptista with the time and resources to waste even more of the money. In fact, I wish there were more people out there whose only source of self-calidation is harrassing the low levels of government so that they can hike my taxes even higher. #! rnews 0 Path: bunker!cnn.isc-br.com!krel.iea.com!nwfocus.wa.com!islander.whidbey.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02 From: venturat@aol.com (Ventura T) Newsgroups: alt.binaries.warez.mac,alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc,alt.2600,alt.security,comp.security.misc,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica Subject: Re: K00l! Warez FTP SITEZ! 31337, d00dZ! Date: 23 Aug 1995 12:56:25 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 12 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41fmjp$nai@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <1995Aug23.130423.47795@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> Reply-To: venturat@aol.com (Ventura T) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Xref: bunker alt.binaries.warez.mac:272 alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc:2243 alt.2600:51716 alt.security:12769 comp.security.misc:13030 alt.binaries.pictures.er >Hey, you little toad, get the hell off the net. I am sick and tired of >your bullshit. No one here wants your lame-ass posts. I'd killfile, if I >could. I usually lurk through the jumble of nonsense, but had to comment on your post. I think that you were out of line with this reply. I figure you are kid who has to much time on your hands! Get a life or jump back into reality and get the big picture. THE EARTH DOESN'T REVOLVE AROUND YOU!!!! Enigma From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:36 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!world!news From: jjmartin@world.std.com (Jim Martin) Subject: Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? Message-ID: Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Nntp-Posting-Host: world.std.com Reply-To: wk1v@hamradio.com Organization: WK1V X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55 References: <41ebib$eb4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:34:35 GMT Lines: 46 forsberg@cts.com (Bruce W. Forsberg) wrote: :>I have an R7 vertical and before this I had a R4 vertical. I have :>always had problems tuning it when I place it on a metal mast. I have :>mine now on a mast that is about 12 feet high. Before I used to have :>it chimeny mounted and had no problems. It seems that the metal mast :>detunes it. I just use it as it is and use an antenna tuner. I wonder if you pushed the metal mast up too far into the R7? That, in essence, would short the base of the antenna with the radiating portion and would put everything at the same potential as the mast. It would also by-pass the matching network in the process...Can't do it that way. That is the only way, I know of, that a metal mast would have any affect on "detuning" the R7. I can almost guarantee you that if I set up your R7 that problem would not exist. Keyword is almost. :-D The only way to detune these antennas would be to mount them too close to something metalic or to try to guy them with metalic guys...of course you can also adjust the lengths of the various sections of the antenna and be off also. I run an R5 currently. It is resonant smack dab where it's supposed to be on each band...used my MFJ-259 analyzer after the antenna was put together in its entirety. I went by the instructions to put the R5 together. Used a screwdriver, a crescent wrench, my wife's car (something to support the antenna during setup), and a measuring tape. I was pleasantly surprised to see that it required no further tweaking...I mean it was done, first time! One thing I didn't like was the way the 10 meter coil was wound for 27.8-something. A call to Ken Albertson at Cushcraft gave me instruction on how to tune the antenna up into 10 meters...not that it really mattered. I didn't ask why that type of instruction wasn't placed in the literature...hmmmm. I'm sure there are those with the R7 who would like their favorite 40 meter frequency tuned as the center freq on their antenna. Tomorrow I will call Ken and let him know about this thread and see what kind of support he may have to offer. This is interesting though. Cheers! -------------------------------------------------------------- |Jim Martin, WK1V | I speak for no one...Not | |Lowell, Massachusetts | even for myself! | |USAF (Ret)ained | #include "std_disclaimer.h" | |ex: KA5MWD/N1CLS/KB1LW/HL9ZF | Intentionally Left Blank | -------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news From: Roger A. Cox <75052.3037@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: HF Log Periodic Beams Date: 25 Aug 1995 20:37:26 GMT Organization: Telex Communications, Inc. Lines: 10 Message-ID: <41lca6$1o4$1@mhafn.production.compuserve.com> References: <41h1u6$kps@redstone.interpath.net> Log-Periodic Dipole Arrays have been over-rated in gain for years. Take a look at the 17th edition of the ARRL Antenna Handbook. On page 10-3 in Figure 4, gain is graphed vs. TAU and SIGMA. This graph has been changed to reflect the current calculations on LP gain. For an example, an 8 element 13-30 MHz LP on an 18 foot boom has a TAU of 0.85 and a SIGMA of 0.05, this should be a gain of no more than 6 dBi!! Guess who makes such an antenna, and what they say the gain is. 73, Roger WB0DGF From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: buddy10@aol.com (BUDDY10) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: How do i find out my exact Longitude/latitude ? Date: 27 Aug 1995 10:48:11 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 3 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41q0jb$6jq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader How do i find out my exact longitude & latitude , so i can use a beam heading program ? Thanks ! From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:38 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!frank_reid.electronics.indiana.edu From: reid@indiana.edu (Frank Reid) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: How do i find out my exact Longitude/latitude ? Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:19 EST Organization: Indiana University Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <19950827101931.reid@frank_reid.electronics.indiana.edu> References: <41q0jb$6jq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: frank_reid.electronics.indiana.edu X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0 In Article <41q0jb$6jq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> "buddy10@aol.com (BUDDY10)" says: > How do i find out my exact longitude & latitude , so i can use a beam > heading program ? > Thanks ! > 1) Buy a topographic map of the place where you live. They're available from state geological surveys and some "outdoor" stores. 2) Buy an Aeronautical Sectional Chart at your local non-airline airport, or get an old one from a pilot. 3) Buy a GPS receiver. 4) The nearest degree of lat/lon is probably adequate for a beam-heading program. See a road atlas. -- Frank reid@indiana.edu W9MKV From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:38 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!voder!nsc!news From: "Al Koblinski (W7XA)" Subject: Re: How do you feed HF multiband quad? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: mike_cash@mlngw.chinalake.navy.mil Sender: news@nsc.nsc.com (netnews maintenance) Nntp-Posting-Host: akoblinski.nsc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 21:28:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:mike_cash-2208950827170001@cash_mike.chinalake.navy.mil Lines: 10 I have a used a homebrew 3 el 20M, and 5 el 15&10 mtr for some time. I feed the square elements with a 1:1 balun and on 20 and 15 this works well without any other matching. (the impedance came in at 48 ohm and 44 ohms respectively.) On 10 the impedance was up about 90 ohm and I used a 75 ohm matching section between the balun and the 50 ohm feedline. Of course each antenna is fed separately through a remote switch. Very good results! 73, Al From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!aimnet.com!news2.aimnet.com!NewsWatcher!user From: anb@nextstep.com (Andy Brandt, KE6SKH) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: J-pole antennas question Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 19:39:33 -0700 Organization: NextStep Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.118.173.33 As a relatively new amateur operator, I was wondering if someone could briefly explain the theory behind the j-pole antenna, and why it is able to get such high gain compared to whips. The reason I ask is that I'm considering a new antenna purchase, and was wondering if the j-pole is even worth it, since it has to remain inside my ground-floor residence. If I can't mount it outside, will I still benefit from the increased performance? Please e-mail replies, as well as posting them here. Thanks for your help! --A From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:40 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!lfheller.demon.co.uk!Leon From: Leon Heller Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Re: Jamming LW Radio Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 17:25:16 GMT Organization: Home Lines: 17 Message-ID: <809371516snz@lfheller.demon.co.uk> References: <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> Reply-To: Leon@lfheller.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: lfheller.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13292 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9162 In article <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> 100607.1743@CompuServe.COM "David Lees" writes: > Anyone any idea how I could Jam a radio Long Wave radio station > (Atlantic 252 to be accurate)............ > > Please help if you can! To start with, you'll need a big garden for the antenna! Plus lots of money for the electricity bill. 8-) Leon -- Leon Heller, G1HSM | "Do not adjust your mind, there is E-mail leon@lfheller.demon.co.uk | a fault in reality": on a wall Phone: +44 (0)1734 266679 | many years ago in Oxford. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:40 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news From: David Lees <100607.1743@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Jamming LW Radio Date: 25 Aug 1995 14:34:01 GMT Organization: none Lines: 4 Message-ID: <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13309 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9167 Anyone any idea how I could Jam a radio Long Wave radio station (Atlantic 252 to be accurate)............ Please help if you can! From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:41 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ksu.ksu.edu!hptemp1.cc.umr.edu!dstuart From: dstuart@rocket.cc.umr.edu (Dave Stuart (dstuart@umr.edu)) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Re: Jamming LW Radio Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Date: 25 Aug 1995 20:11:59 GMT Organization: UMR Missouri's Technological University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <41laqf$4l7@hptemp1.cc.umr.edu> References: <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.cc.umr.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13321 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9176 David Lees (100607.1743@CompuServe.COM) wrote: : Anyone any idea how I could Jam a radio Long Wave radio station : (Atlantic 252 to be accurate)............ : Please help if you can! Isn't that kind of un amatureish? -- -- Dave Stuart dstuart@umr.edu University of Missouri -- Rolla KB0SLY From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:42 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!irus.rri.uwo.ca!ppicot From: ppicot@irus.rri.uwo.ca (Paul Picot) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Re: Jamming LW Radio Date: 25 Aug 1995 20:46:52 GMT Organization: U.N.C.L.E. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <41lcrs$s4m@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> References: <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: oort.irus.rri.uwo.ca Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13322 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9177 In article <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> David Lees <100607.1743@CompuServe.COM> writes: >Anyone any idea how I could Jam a radio Long Wave radio station >(Atlantic 252 to be accurate)............ How about an air drop? I was always quite fond of black currant myself. It should stain the building nicely, but you'll need a 45-gallon drum of it... :-) But seriously: why would you want to interfere with a LW station? It is a navigation aid, isn't it? The penalties for doing such a thing should dissuade you. But to give an answer: the most effective way to interfere with its transmissions would be to drive a large truck into the transmitter From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Ladder Line Loss Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 15:40:48 GMT Lines: 33 Message-ID: <809451695.16841@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 My new 200' dipole is now up but there's a problem on one band. Maybe someone will have some advice on this. After erecting the antenna, I found that my tuner matches it well on all bands except 160M. I ran the antenna through MiniNEC, which claims it has a feedpoint impedance of 1.26 ohms, -489j. I have a technique that allows the tuner to match impedances outside its usual range, which in this case would be to insert a toroidal step-down transformer between the tuner and the rig. However, even if I do this, and even if I overlook increased losses in the tuner that result, there's another problem. According to a transmission line program I use, the input SWR at the transmission line is approximately 340:1. With this SWR, losses in the ladder line will be greater than 3.5 dB. Ironically, I ran these programs for an antenna that I used until five years ago when I went inactive. That antenna was about 60' long total length. Losses aren't nearly as bad with the shorter antenna. What would really help me at this point would be for someone to verify my calculations and post the results here. It's a simple antenna, 200' total length, elevated 20' everywhere, center fed with 100' of 450 ohm ladder line. If results agree with mine, suggestions will be appreciated. I was hoping to take advantage of the additional gain this antenna might offer on 20M and up, but not at the expense of 160M. Thanks and 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:43 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ladder Line Loss Date: 26 Aug 1995 16:44:10 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 9 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41o12q$ks4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41nsal$4jg@news.azstarnet.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Wes wrote: >For your assumption of Zl = 1.26-j489: load SWR = 779; input SWR = 114; >input Z = 4.8=j209 and total line loss = 8.34. Wes, Unless I missed something that input impedance seems way off. Wasn't Jack using a quarter wave line to feed the antenna with a 450 ohms Zo? I didn't run it on a Smith chart but intuition tells me the input R on 160 should be real high, unless I missed something. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ladder Line Loss Date: 26 Aug 1995 21:18:47 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 2 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41oh5n$pos@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41o12q$ks4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com OOps, never mind, I missed something. Hee hee.Jack, that looks like it should tune. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!usenet From: Super-User Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: LARGE resonators Date: 24 Aug 1995 15:12:28 GMT Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA Lines: 9 Message-ID: <41i4ss$n9k@news.duke.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: shadow.mc.duke.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP19) X-URL: news:rec.radio.amateur.antenna Anybody have any experience with resonators in the 400 MHz range? Any thoughts, references? thanks steve sas@orion.mc.duke.edu From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Major patent approved - but need antenna help. Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 04:07:36 GMT Lines: 33 Message-ID: <809323669.23485@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <1296074538-950819080601@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) wrote: >Again, everyone had to assume many things on the original post by the >fellow to ask the question. It was hard to determine anything >without assuming. I'll stick to my real world experience and agree >with Karl. >In my corrected calculation, I added an actually lower path fath >number due to the fact the path was short and portable. Normally, to >an amateur radio operator, having 40 db built into a path is >unreasonible. >In the professional world, 30 to 40 db of added signal is a "must" >to achieve a reliability factor. Most all path work I have been >involved with, requires 99.99998 % reliability. << snip >> Jim, this was an excellent summary and a good way to finish this thread. There is one aspect of all this that I'd like a little more info on though. The numbers you mention for path fade are certainly necessary at 6 GHz and above (the examples you cited). However, path fade is not a significant factor in the industry I work in (2.5 GHz). In fact, it isn't even figured into calculations for path lengths of 50 miles and less. Just so I understand this, are you certain that a *line of sight* path at 220 MHz needs fade margins similar to the higher frequencies you mentioned? Line of sight isn't really the way most Hams use 220 MHz, so I'm just trying to be sure we're talking about the same thing. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!ddi2.digital.net!usenet From: russ@mailhost.gslink.net (Russ Leblanc) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: MININEC users Date: 25 Aug 1995 19:57:45 GMT Organization: Hurricane DX Club Lines: 5 Message-ID: <41l9vp$3dr@ddi2.digital.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: @204.215.242.151 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.4 I'm using the Artec House version of this antenna analysis program. Has anyone had any luck using the network matching subroutine? From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dns.crocker.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!news.pixi.com!vine From: vine@ohana.com (BBS Login) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Mobile HF Antennas Date: 27 Aug 1995 08:18:05 GMT Organization: INTERACT! - Hawaii's Premier On-Line Service Lines: 5 Message-ID: <41p9nt$ht3@rigel.pixi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: oahu.ohana.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I'm looking for available HF mobile antennas for a comparison test and possilbe write up. Thanks, J.W. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:47 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!not-for-mail From: skulyov@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Sergei Kulyov) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Need help with Super super Dentron tuner Date: 27 Aug 1995 13:38:59 -0400 Organization: The Greater Columbus FreeNet Lines: 8 Message-ID: <41qajj$cob@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Hi gang. I have a Super super Dentron antenna tuner with one missed part inside. There are one air vary capacitor, balun, couple air core coils. Does anybody could help with schematic or suggestion about missed part? Thanks, 73! Sergei AA8OT, UA3AP From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:48 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!ddi2.digital.net!usenet From: russ@gslink.net (Russ Leblanc) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Subject: Re: phased array receiving antennas Date: 26 Aug 1995 02:34:42 GMT Organization: Hurricane DX Club Lines: 41 Message-ID: <41m182$r1m@ddi2.digital.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: @204.215.242.151 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.4 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13324 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9178 In article , steve@hi.com (Steve Byan) says: >My next problem is designing a high-input-impedance, high-dynamic-range >differential RF amp for the output of the phase shift network. And don't forget low noise, Steve ;-) I work on such ... >I've noticed the new JPS antenna noise canceling unit (which is a >phased-array receiving antenna, intended to null locally-generated RFI I wouldn't quite call it a phased array. You simply either pickup (radio) or synthesize the offending signal, flip the phase 180 degrees, sum the signals, and voila! Noise reduction. An old dog learning new tricks... >noise) must use some kind of wideband phase-shift network, since it covers >at least 3 to 30 MHz with only a two-position bandswitch: low band and >high band. Has anyone opened one of these up? What does the phasing >network look like? Is it a polyphase network? What does JPS use for an >amplifier? According to info leaked out, its a hybrid combiner, and accounts for some loss of the desired receive signal. My guess is that it's transformer based, the noise signal being fed 180 out from the main antenna. The phase shift network compensates for phase error due to parasitics in the network which might cause the noise channel to deviate from desired 180 degrees as a function of frequency. I'm guessing here, but WILL find the eventual answer. I've played with one at a local ham store, and on first trial it did eradicate some local power line noise. My original desire was for a wideband antenna phaser for far-field null-steering apps as well as diversity reception. Russ From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:48 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: wa6ube@aol.com (WA6UBE) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: portable longwave antenna kit Date: 24 Aug 1995 23:33:17 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 14 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41jg9t$2pp@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40p74u$bf0_002@port19.wasatch.com> Reply-To: wa6ube@aol.com (WA6UBE) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com :I have a 'like new' antenna kit for 1.8 to 30 megahertz, in the canvas carrying bag. Is there a military designation for the kit you have ?? there should be something stamped on the roll bag or on the antenna kit itself somewhere.. :-) Would be interested if I knew which antenna kit you have there! Patricia Gibbons - WA6UBE@aol.com "The Vertical Skywave Girl" From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:49 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!moritz From: moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN Date: 25 Aug 1995 10:40:47 GMT Organization: Comp.Center (RUS), U of Stuttgart, FRG Lines: 33 Message-ID: <41k9bf$pjs@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <41asr3$i7i@fido.asd.sgi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de Rob, Many thanks for the description of the GAP antenna. Surely the Manufacturer will give you a discount next time. >For comparison, I used to have a 20m and 40m inverted vee dipole in >this same location. The apex was at about 20 feet, and the ends at >about 5 feet. I was able to work only a couple of people SSB over the >months, and a few people on CW. When direct side-by-side comparisions are made over longer times, even than the results are ambigous. So jujung a antenna by results on a contest weekend is pretty meaningless. >It turns out the NA QSO Party contest was this weekend, so I was able >to make a fair number of contacts Saturday evening. >I could hear plenty of people >on 80, some as far as central Canada, but was unable to talk to any of >them (previously I couldn't even hear people on 80). If you can't hear someone on 80 while the band is open, your receiver must be dead and there must be no antenna connected. With a receiver that works you can hear plenty of people with anything tied to the antenna socket. So, enjoy your antenna, but don't get carried away, the dipole should normally be equal or better, unless there is something wrong with it. 73, Moritz DL5UH From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Putting up an HF Yagi either vertically or semivertical... Date: 25 Aug 1995 05:22:10 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 18 Message-ID: <41jmm2$517@news.azstarnet.com> References: <41brf1$iro@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <41fup2$nur@maureen.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup92.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) Your_Name_Here wrote: >Hello. > >I'd like to put up a Cushcraft A3 beam either vertically or at a 45 >degree angle from the earth because I'll only be able to put up the >(center of the) beam 30 feet off the ground. > >Any one have an opinion on this? Any experiences? > [snip] No experience, only an opinion: don't do it. I can see no advantage to doing this. The mounting will be complicated and the interaction with the supporting structure will be great. There is no advantage to vertical polarization at the frequencies this antenna covers. 73, Wes -- N7WS From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:51 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpcvsnz!news From: Your_Name_Here Subject: Putting up an HF Yagi either vertically or semivertical... Sender: news@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com (News ) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 00:47:14 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <41brf1$iro@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <41fup2$nur@maureen.teleport.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpspkts.spk.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Lines: 14 Hello. I'd like to put up a Cushcraft A3 beam either vertically or at a 45 degree angle from the earth because I'll only be able to put up the (center of the) beam 30 feet off the ground. Any one have an opinion on this? Any experiences? Thanks in advance, Marc DePaul From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Putting up an HF Yagi either vertically or semivertical... Date: 27 Aug 1995 18:49:32 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 36 Message-ID: <41qens$7j2@maureen.teleport.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx08-52.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > Your_Name_Here writes: > Hello. > > I'd like to put up a Cushcraft A3 beam either vertically or at a 45 > degree angle from the earth because I'll only be able to put up the > (center of the) beam 30 feet off the ground. > > Any one have an opinion on this? Any experiences? > > > Thanks in advance, > > > Marc DePaul > > >>>> I'm not sure what band(s) the A3 is for. On 20 meters, over average ground, a vertically-mounted beam up 30' at the center is about the same as a horizontally-mounted one at elevation angles up to about 8 degrees. At 10 degrees, the horizontally-mounted one is better by more than 3 dB, and at 15 degrees more than 5 dB. There's no elevation angle at which the vertical one is better than the horizontal one. This assumes that you don't have anything metallic like a tower interfering with the antenna when it's mounted vertically. At this point, a shameless plug for antenna modeling programs. This is just the kind of thing they're really good for. 73, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!nntp.atlanta.com!news From: kb8rjy@arbornet.org (kb8rjy) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.space Subject: QSL cards Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 20:28:49 GMT Organization: Marquette Senior High School Lines: 77 Message-ID: <41ntdp$6qv@nntp.atlanta.com> Reply-To: kb8rjy@arbornet.org NNTP-Posting-Host: pm039-04.dialip.mich.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13334 rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc:10215 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:16238 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9186 rec.radio.amateur.misc:85542 rec.radio.amateur.policy:29118 rec.radio.amateur.space:4671 Check this out - QSL cards! With your own custom graphics, and text... only $5.95 for 50!... Custom design your cards with up to 80 Characters of text, and Your own scanned graphic / or antenna graphic. Just fill out the following form, and send with total (check or money order) to: Shaun Qualheim, KB8RJY QSL cards Dept. BBS 224 Cherry Creek Road Marquette, MI 49855 (Print, and cut here:) ________________________________________________________________________________ Order Form: QSL Cards ________________________________________________________________________________ Front Text: ____________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________ (up to 80 characters on front) - back will have standard QSL reply fields. Is a graphic/photo to be scanned included? (yes/no) ____ Do you wish to have the antenna included on your qsl card instead? (yes/no) ____ Number of sets: (50 in a set, $5.95 a set) ____ times $5.95 = ____ Plus Shipping and handling: ($1.50 per set) ____ times $5.95 = ____ Plus Scanning fee ($1.00) ____ TOTAL (sets + s & h + scan fee) =____ ________________________________________________________________________________ (cut here) Thank You Shaun Qualheim, kb8rjy Internet: kb8rjy@m-net.arbornet.org From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!nntp.atlanta.com!news From: kb8rjy@arbornet.org (kb8rjy) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.space Subject: QSL cards - qslad.txt (1/1) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:25:06 GMT Organization: Internet Atlanta Lines: 75 Message-ID: <41npm9$662@nntp.atlanta.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm039-04.dialip.mich.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13333 rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc:10214 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:16235 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9185 rec.radio.amateur.misc:85538 rec.radio.amateur.policy:29116 rec.radio.amateur.space:4668 begin 644 qslad.txt M0VAE8VL@=&AI6]U2!#65S+VYO*2!?7U]?("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@(`T*1&\@ M>6]U('=I4!M+6YE="YA References: <41npm9$662@nntp.atlanta.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <41npm9$662@nntp.atlanta.com>, kb8rjy@arbornet.org (kb8rjy) writes: >Subject: QSL cards - qslad.txt (1/1) >From: kb8rjy@arbornet.org (kb8rjy) >Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:25:06 GMT > >begin 644 qslad.txt >M0VAE8VL@=&AIM("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@#0H@("`@("`@("`@ >M("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@ >M("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`@("`-"E=I=&@@>6]U Subject: Re: quad building Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: terrybu@netman.ens.tek.com Sender: news@nsc.nsc.com (netnews maintenance) Nntp-Posting-Host: akoblinski.nsc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara References: <41dcpu$35s@netman.ens.tek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 21:37:33 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:41dcpu$35s@netman.ens.tek.com Lines: 10 The quagis in the ARRL antenna handbook work very well. For Oscar, there is an article in QST a few years ago about using baluns to get circular polarization with a single quad driven element. I built it and it works excellent. I can work Oscar 13 at 4500km with 6 wats output on 435 with it. The article was written by a VK I think. Contact me if you cannot find it and I can mail or FAX it to you. 73, Al From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!cphillips From: KD4YU@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net (Curt Phillips) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Rohn HBX Info Wanted Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 20:35:16 GMT Organization: North Carolina Division of Energy Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <41o0v0$64p@redstone.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cphillips.pdial.interpath.net Keywords: Rohn Tower HBX Information Antenna Windload X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2 I'm looking at a Rohn HBX tower (approx. 64 ft) to purchase to put a Hygain TH7 on. a) Does anyone have the data on the max antenna area that this tower is rated for? Though it is supposed to be a free standing tower, how much might guying it add to the acceptable windload area? b) What should a 64' Rohn HBX sell for used? It's "on the ground" and in good, but not great shape (some rust spots that need to be painted, a couple of bent spots that will need to be straightened and reinforced). Thanks for any input. =========Opinions expressed are solely those of the author============ Curt Phillips, KD4YU (ex-WB4LHI) | INFO OVERLOAD: Reading Usenet KD4YU@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net | while listening to 2 meters, Chairman, Tarheel Scanner/SWL Group | and both my scanner & SW receiver, ARRL Life; QCWA; Raleigh Am Radio Soc | with the TV on in the background. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!holmes.sgate.com!jekyll.sgate.com!donovanf From: Frank Donovan Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Rohn HBX Info Wanted Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 23:46:25 -0400 Organization: Southgate Internet Host Lines: 72 Message-ID: References: <41o0v0$64p@redstone.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jekyll.sgate.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <41o0v0$64p@redstone.interpath.net> Curt, You were very wise to inquire on here before proceeding with the purchase of a Rohn BX tower for use with a long boom beam like the TH7! The Rohn BX series consists of light (BX), mid-rated (HBX) and "heavy duty" (HDBX) towers. The 64 foot tower is available only in the light duty rated series BX. The maximum height of the HBX is 56 feet and the maximum height of the HDBX is 48 feet. You should be aware of the following warning on Rohn sales brochures and engineering drawings for the BX, HBX and HDBX towers: "Antenna types for BX, HBX and HDBX should be limited to those having a maximum boom length of 10 feet. No engineering data related to the use of boom lengths in excess of 10 feet is available and the use of such boom lengths is not recommended. These towers use aluminum rivets which cannot safely handle the torque produced by large beams. Rohn rates the BX series towers for the following antenna areas, subject to the 10 foot boom restriction: BX-64: 6 sq ft at 20 psf (70.7 MPH) HBX-56 10 sq ft at 20 psf (70.7 MPH) HDBX-48 18 sq ft at 20 psf (70.7 MPH) Many local building codes require the application of EIA specification RS-222 in the design of antenna towers. You should be aware, however, that the latest version of EIA Standard RS-222, Structural Standards for Steel Antenna Towers and Antanna Supporting Structures, requires the use of 30 psf wind loads in virtually every area of the U.S. (and 40 psf or more in some areas!) If you apply the 30 psf requirement to the Rohn BX, HBX and HDBX you will discover that only the HDBX is safe and only with a very small antenna! The Rohn BX, HBX and HDBX towers cannot be safely guyed, because the legs are incapable of bearing the compressive loads resulting from the use of guys. The only safe way to repair bent tower sections for this tower is to replace them. You should be able to purchase new sections from Rohn. Rust can be safely repaired if no significant amount of steel has been lost. I'd suggest the Rustoleum products for galvanized steel repair and preservation. remember: safety first! 73 Frank W3LPL donovanf@sgate.com On Sat, 26 Aug 1995, Curt Phillips wrote: > I'm looking at a Rohn HBX tower (approx. 64 ft) to purchase to put > a Hygain TH7 on. > a) Does anyone have the data on the max antenna area that this > tower is rated for? Though it is supposed to be a free standing tower, > how much might guying it add to the acceptable windload area? > b) What should a 64' Rohn HBX sell for used? It's "on the ground" > and in good, but not great shape (some rust spots that need to be > painted, a couple of bent spots that will need to be straightened > and reinforced). > Thanks for any input. > > =========Opinions expressed are solely those of the author============ > Curt Phillips, KD4YU (ex-WB4LHI) | INFO OVERLOAD: Reading Usenet > KD4YU@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net | while listening to 2 meters, > Chairman, Tarheel Scanner/SWL Group | and both my scanner & SW receiver, > ARRL Life; QCWA; Raleigh Am Radio Soc | with the TV on in the background. > > > From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:49:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: wa6ube@aol.com (WA6UBE) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SG230 component value Date: 24 Aug 1995 23:36:12 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 15 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41jgfc$2t2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <40j9jd$oba@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: wa6ube@aol.com (WA6UBE) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com :Looking at a schematic drawing ( revision "T", April, 93 ) R51 is :connected across the emitter and base of Q4 with the emitter being :grounded. The value of R51 is 7.5k Ohms (7500). :R50, on the other hand, connects to the base of Q4 and is shown as 10k :Ohms. :Del, KD4B Raleigh, NC Well - at least I am not confirmed as being color-blind!! thanx and 73 - Trish WA6UBE@aol.com "The Vertical Skywave Girl" From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.pgh.net!usenet From: glidden@greene.pgh.net (Jack Glidden) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.shortwave Subject: Tinted Window Question Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 19:41:11 GMT Organization: Pittsburgh OnLine, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <41l9ml$ck@dropit.pgh.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: glidden.greene.pgh.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13296 rec.radio.shortwave:57555 I have been told told that the tinting that comes from the factory on newer model veh. is actually a metal that is inside the glass. This has the effect of really screwing up any type of thru the glass antenna. Is this true? Where or who should I call to confirm this? I have a 92 Jimmy with factory tint on all glass except the front. I need to mount some antennas and don't want to drill or use mag mounts. I am planning to mount a 2 meter and a 10 meter antenna. If you hav any answers please send e-mail. Thanks From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: "James A. Storm" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.shortwave Subject: Re: Tinted Window Question Date: 26 Aug 1995 02:41:13 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 20 Message-ID: <41m1k9$hlk@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <41l9ml$ck@dropit.pgh.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sf5-10.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1PE (Windows; I; 16bit) To: glidden@greene.pgh.net Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13326 rec.radio.shortwave:57592 glidden@greene.pgh.net (Jack Glidden) wrote: >I have been told told that the tinting that comes from the factory on >newer model veh. is actually a metal that is inside the glass. This >has the effect of really screwing up any type of thru the glass >antenna. Is this true? Where or who should I call to confirm this? >I have a 92 Jimmy with factory tint on all glass except the front. I >need to mount some antennas and don't want to drill or use mag mounts. >I am planning to mount a 2 meter and a 10 meter antenna. >If you hav any answers please send e-mail. > >Thanks I was told by Larsen Antenna that oridinary factory tint should be no problem. You don't want to put it in an area where you can't even see through the glass. Mine is mounted on the tinted side window of an extra-cab truck and works quite well. 73, WB6LWS Jim in Pacifica, CA From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!bcm.tmc.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!news From: eus.eusmge@memo.ericsson.se (Mike Groves) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.shortwave Subject: Re: Tinted Window Question Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 02:41:16 GMT Organization: Ericsson North America, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <41m1ei$sjq@cnn.exu.ericsson.se> References: <41l9ml$ck@dropit.pgh.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc125011.exu.ericsson.se X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13327 rec.radio.shortwave:57593 glidden@greene.pgh.net (Jack Glidden) wrote: >I have been told told that the tinting that comes from the factory on >newer model veh. is actually a metal that is inside the glass. This >has the effect of really screwing up any type of thru the glass >antenna. Is this true? Where or who should I call to confirm this? >I have a 92 Jimmy with factory tint on all glass except the front. I >need to mount some antennas and don't want to drill or use mag mounts. >I am planning to mount a 2 meter and a 10 meter antenna. Thru-glass on 10M? You'ld have to have a patch area the size of a door-mat. 2M is marginal at best. I like trunk-lid mounts, but in the case of a Jimmy... Good luck ---Mike From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.pgh.net!usenet From: glidden@greene.pgh.net (Jack Glidden) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.shortwave Subject: Re: Tinted Window Question Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 00:27:11 GMT Organization: Pittsburgh OnLine, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <41oequ$dge@dropit.pgh.net> References: <41l9ml$ck@dropit.pgh.net> <41m1ei$sjq@cnn.exu.ericsson.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: glidden.greene.pgh.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13350 rec.radio.shortwave:57625 eus.eusmge@memo.ericsson.se (Mike Groves) wrote: > >>need to mount some antennas and don't want to drill or use mag mounts. >>I am planning to mount a 2 meter and a 10 meter antenna. >Thru-glass on 10M? You'ld have to have a patch area the size of a >door-mat. 2M is marginal at best. I like trunk-lid mounts, but in >the case of a Jimmy... Good luck ---Mike I don't want to drill a hole, and a mag mount is out of the question due to the clearance (or lack of it) from the gararge. I am considering use a thru the glass 11 Meter and cutting/tuning for 10. The antenna for my scanner AND the AM/FM antenna already bang the gararge door, so any thing else that goes higher is really in for it. And since it's a newer vehicle, there are nor *REAL* bumpers to mount anything to. So I thought I would try this Just keep repeating, "It's only a hobby...it's only a hobby" PS, Thanks for the response. From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!moritz From: moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: UHF antenna tuner - ideas? Date: 25 Aug 1995 10:17:14 GMT Organization: Comp.Center (RUS), U of Stuttgart, FRG Lines: 33 Message-ID: <41k7va$1p06@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <41il2k$fop@news.netvision.net.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de In article <41il2k$fop@news.netvision.net.il>, Tsachy Lindenbaum wrote: >Hi >I'm looking for a schema of a reliable UHF ant. tuner. At these frequencies usually no antenna tuners are employed, instead the antenna is designed resonant and such that it gives the correct impedance, e.g. 50 Ohms. The reason is that any matching device which is not directly inherent to the antenna itself will cause avoidable losses. However, if for some experimental purpose a tuner is called for, it might be an idea to use a device similar to a "stub tuner". if three small (10 pf or so) low loss trimmers are mounted in an coax line, 1/4 wl apart from each other, they should transform Impedances quite well. Alternatively one might transform to a 200 Ohms paralell line and implement a stub tuner: ____________________________________________________ _________________ ___________ __________ ___________ I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I_I I_I I_I The stubs are again separated by 1/4 wl and tuned by varying their length (shorting bars). 73, Moritz DL5UH From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Uni-Hat CTSVR Short Vertical Date: 26 Aug 1995 16:51:31 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 23 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41o1gj$l1b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41nksf$h6j@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Paul: >Does anyone have any experience with a Uni-Hat Corporation CTSVR >Multi-band short vertical for 160-80-40-17 meters? I live on a small >suburban lot on horrible desert soil and would like to get a reasonable >signal on 160 and 80 this winter. I looked at that antenna when I got a QSL from a guy on 160 with a ton of advertising stuff for it. The claims were wild and technically unfounded, but they backed off on all of them now. Lew McCoys stuff was way off base, and Los Alamos doesn't even have an antenna test range. The initial theory about the thing magically improving the rad resistance and efficiency was all BUNK. I think when the do-do finally cleared, the antenna is a good top loaded 35 foot (or whatever) vertical, but it is not magical. I'm sure it is better than a Gap, but not as good as a good home brew top loaded single band vertical. It looks very well constructed, and the large hat should help on 160 and it will work good if you have a fairly good ground. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: pauls90212@aol.com (PaulS90212) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Uni-Hat CTSVR Short Vertical Date: 26 Aug 1995 13:15:59 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 8 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41nksf$h6j@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: pauls90212@aol.com (PaulS90212) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Does anyone have any experience with a Uni-Hat Corporation CTSVR Multi-band short vertical for 160-80-40-17 meters? I live on a small suburban lot on horrible desert soil and would like to get a reasonable signal on 160 and 80 this winter. The price is a tad off-putting! 73 - Paul, N6DN From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Velocity factors needed Date: 27 Aug 1995 19:00:12 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 23 Message-ID: <41qfbs$7j2@maureen.teleport.com> References: <41ekcm$8b5@news.MillComm.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx08-52.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) ; pugrad@millcomm.com (The Great Pumpkin) writes: ; ; Plan on making 2m, 1 1/4m, and 70cm J-poles from different types of ; twin-lead. Want to incorporate velocity factor for each type of twin-lead ; into the length calculations. ; ; Need the velocity factors for: ; ; 1. 450 ohm windowed twin-lead (ladder line) ; 2. 300 ohm windowed twin-lead (ladder line) ; 3. 300 ohm TV twin-lead ; ; I do not have references which give this information... ; ; Thanks for your help... Dave.... KB0TEG I've measured flat 300-ohm twinlead at quite close to 0.8, although it varies a bit from lot to lot. Haven't measured the others. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!ledge!darryl.linkow From: darryl.linkow@ledge.com (DARRYL LINKOW) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: WANTED: Saturn 6 antenna Message-ID: <8AFE253.01B2002049.uuout@ledge.com> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 09:55:00 -0800 Distribution: world Organization: The Ledge PCBoard: Lake View Terrace, CA: USA: 818-896-2007 Reply-To: darryl.linkow@ledge.com (DARRYL LINKOW) X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.21 X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.10 Lines: 15 I am looking to buy a Hi-Par Saturn 6 antenna. This is the halo antenna made in the mid-sixties or so for 6 Meters. I am planning on being a rover on the Sept. 9 VHF contest and would love to get my hands on a Saturn 6 for the contest. If you have one that you would like to sell, please leave me private Email. 73, Darryl KE6IHA Internet Email: darryl.linkow@grinder.com OR darryl.linkow@ledge.com --- * OLX 2.2 * Darryl Linkow (818)346-5278 9 am - 5 pm PDT From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 19:48:13 GMT Lines: 11 Message-ID: <809293702.17618@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <412c68$18eo@hopi.gate.net> <1995Aug21.165831.21483@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <41aopc$dp1@altair.cs.unc.edu> <41idjf$130@satisfied.apocalypse.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 From what I've seen lately, BNC and TNC must refer to the country (city) of origin: BNC = Beijing N Connector TNC = Teipei N Connector 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!warp.cris.com!voyager.cris.com!Mnbc From: Mnbc@cris.com (Dkhg Dhgfd) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: WHAT IS THE BEST TNC? Date: 26 Aug 1995 17:13:09 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 5 Message-ID: <41nkn5$p2k@warp.cris.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager-fddi.cris.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] WHAT IS THE BEST TNC THAT I CAN GET FOR MY MONEY?($300-$400) :) SOMEONE TOLD ME THAT THE KANTRONICS ARE THE BEST! ITS THAT TRUE? I ALSO LIKE THE PK900! I AM LOOKING FOR A MULTIMODE TNC FOR VHF THAT CAN RUN AT LEAST AT 9600! WICH IS THE BEST???? From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Which is the best antenna book? Date: 25 Aug 1995 05:17:36 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 14 Message-ID: <41jmdg$517@news.azstarnet.com> References: <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup92.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) morganp@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote: >I am looking for a book with info on making antenna's (VHF antenna's that >is) & need to know where to find a book and what to look for, any suggestions >on books? > [snip] It's hard to beat the "ARRL Antenna Book" for all-around good info. $30 US from ARRL. Another book from them has some info; "UHF Experimenter's Handbook" for $20 US, although obviously the Antenna Book is more focused on antennas. I'm sure RSGB has something of equal caliber (calibre?). HTH, Regards, Wes -- N7WS From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.sas.ab.ca!fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca!morganp From: morganp@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Which is the best antenna book? Date: 25 Aug 1995 00:42:49 GMT Organization: Edmonton Freenet, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Lines: 10 Message-ID: <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.3] I am looking for a book with info on making antenna's (VHF antenna's that is) & need to know where to find a book and what to look for, any suggestions on books? -- 73 & ttyl Morgan Patterson \\/// Internet: morganp@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (o o) Ham Radio: VE6MRP (_) "Your Computer will self destruct in..5..4..3..2..1..KABOOM!!!" ----oOO-----OOo--------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!news.randomc.com!usenet From: zimmatore@randomc.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Which is the best antenna book? Date: 26 Aug 1995 04:06:18 GMT Organization: Random Access Communications Lines: 14 Message-ID: <41m6jq$c0@news.randomc.com> References: <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca> Reply-To: zimmatore@randomc.com NNTP-Posting-Host: zimmatore.randomc.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.2 In <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca>, morganp@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () writes: >I am looking for a book with info on making antenna's (VHF antenna's that >is) & need to know where to find a book and what to look for, any suggestions >on books? I think the best antenna book I have (although there are a few good ones like the ARRL book already mentioned is: Practical Antenna Handbook by Joesph J. Carr TAB Books 73 de John Zimmatore, AD4ZH From amsoft@epix.net Sun Aug 27 16:50:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: Listserv@ucsd (Mailing List Processor) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: your LISTSERV request "help with a ringo ranger" Date: 24 Aug 95 15:59:30 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 3 Message-ID: <199508241559.IAA28411@mail.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu The mailing list "with" could not be found. You may use the INDEX command to get a listing of available mailing lists. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!usenet From: MRITUNJAY BANSAL Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.ham-radio,ott.jobs,ott.forsale.other,ott.forsale.computing,ont.jobs,newbridge.rec,newbridge.notice,newbridge.forsale,misc.invest.technical,misc.invest.stocks,misc.invest.canada,bc.jobs,alt.current-events.russia,ab.jobs Subject: Re: $1,800 WEEKLY! MAILING OUR CIRCULARS Date: 28 Aug 1995 21:23:45 GMT Organization: General Mills, Inc. Lines: 8 Message-ID: <41tc51$s51@news.mr.net> References: <41ii92$5ge@news.internetmci.com> <41t2vt$9j6@crchh327.rich.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.217.160.7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: bizsol@magi.com Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.misc:85677 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9220 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:16350 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13412 misc.invest.technical:16112 misc.invest.stocks:68042 misc.invest.canada:14674 alt.current-events.russia:10975 This is just the kind of disgusting commercial crap that we can do without. In a high-tech world it seems, the anarchists could get away with it!!!!! Oh well, anxiety and pleasure I guess do go together. Mritunjay From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!taligent!apple.com!apple.com!not-for-mail From: kchen@apple.com (Kok Chen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 Date: 28 Aug 1995 13:59:51 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc., Cupertino, California Lines: 35 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <41tao7$pet@apple.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: apple.com tjf@beta.lanl.gov (Thomas J. Farish) writes: >OK...so what's the story about the discone antenna project for 10 and 20m >in the latest issue of '73? > >The author claims 3db gain over dipole omni-directionally(!) with a single >cone and 6db with two cones connected together. Looks easy to build, and >cheap too. Anybody else tried this? This may be my weekend project.... > >On the other hand, has Wayne started accepting articles from authors who >write the cold fusion and telekenesis stuff in their spare time? You could have guessed at the quality of the article by the author's complete misuse of the term "discone." If what was described is a discone, where the heck is the disc?! :-) The ARRL Antenna Book has construction hints for real discones. The balanced version of the antenna shown in the 73 article is, instead, a biconical antenna. Ferheavensake, even introductory antenna texts such as Kraus' discuss at length the biconical. Such antennas should not be a mystery. Some competent editor at 73 Magazine should have caught that and jetisoned the article. For a down-to-earth look at the gain a biconical produces, see Kraus. Ref: John D. Kraus [W8JK], "Antennas, Second Edition," McGraw-Hill, 1988. ISBN 0-07-035422-7. 73, Kok Chen, AA6TY kchen@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:11 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!punchdown.zocalo.com!usenet From: Jeffrey Pawlan Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 1.5 ghz antenna needed for GPS receiver Date: 31 Aug 1995 19:01:42 GMT Organization: Zocalo Engineering - Berkeley, California, USA Lines: 8 Message-ID: <4250um$5oe@punchdown.zocalo.com> References: <4233er$9qr@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.135.76.232 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m) X-URL: news:4233er$9qr@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com MA/COM makes very fine and cost-effective flat antennas for GPS, most with a built-in preamp. I recommend not wasting your time redesigning the wheel when it is so well done commercially. I don't know where you are but MA/COM has regional sales offices in all parts of the country. Jeffrey WA6KBL Pawlan Communications From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:12 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: 1000 KHz Length Message-ID: <1995Aug29.124758.3243@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <41aluv$sgc@hptemp1.cc.umr.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:47:58 GMT Lines: 29 In article fortnum@wat.hookup.net (Rich Fortnum) writes: >In article , armond@delphi.com wrote: >>Dave Stuart (dstuart@umr.edu) writes: >> >>>I have figured around 150 for a dipole using the 300 / (freq MHz) method. >> >>The formula is 468/fMHz, which in this case would be 468 ft. 300/fMhz >>gives the Meters which would be 300 meters so a dipole would be half of that >>or 150 meters minus 5%. > >I don't quite understand. 468 feet per 300/fMHz? No, Armond's introduction of quaint American units (QAU) is just confusing you. The formula 300/fMhz gives the *free space* wavelength in meters. Half of that value gives the half wavelength in meters, or 150 meters as you determined. Now dipoles are subject to something called "end effect", and the usual rule of thumb is to subtract about 5% from the free space figure to get the length of wire you need. That's roughly 142.5 meters, or in QAU about 470 feet. That 5% is just a rule of thumb, however, and you usually have to trim the antenna to resonance, so starting a little on the long side is a good idea because it's easier to cut wire off than to add wire back. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: ptracy@aol.com (PTracy) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 28 Aug 1995 20:30:11 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 20 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41tn2j$b7h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41qj17$cea@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <41qj17$cea@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ibmdelf@aol.com (IBM Del F) writes: >-- obtain two 12 volt car batteries > >-- connect the two 12-Volt batteries in series > >-- connect the radio to the 24-Volt output. > >-- hit the power switch and key down the mike button with little delay. > >You'll get around 200 Watts output for as long as the radio can stand the >overvoltage (maybe 15 seconds - based on speculation, not first-hand >experience.) > > How about dis-abling and alc / agc circuts? Hams just run 'em wide open any way. Damn the transitors, Full power ahead. Yahhooo. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:14 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: ibmdelf@aol.com (IBM Del F) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 2 gizmachi antenna and kenwood ts-50 mod Date: 29 Aug 1995 11:41:52 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 8 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41vcg0$49b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41tn2j$b7h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: ibmdelf@aol.com (IBM Del F) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Yahooo indeed! The vision of the guy riding the A-bomb out the bottom of the jet in Dr. Strangelove comes to mind. Whatever you do, just don't let all the smoke out of the finals. Once it escapes, you can't get the stuff back into them to make 'em work. Del , KD4B Raleigh, NC From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:15 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!world!blanket.mitre.org!linus.mitre.org!gbass.mitre.org!user From: gbass@mitre.org (Jerry Bass) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 2m - 5 element quad problems Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:39:35 -0400 Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <41am3n$3c8@uuneo.neosoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gbass.mitre.org In article , daveb@delphi.com wrote: > Tom Baltz writes: > > >The weekend project was the 5 element 2 meter quad from the January QST > >article....& compared to my copper pipe J-pole, I'm dissapointed: > > > >The quad is performing about half of what the jpole is - both xmit & > >receive! I assumed it would be the other way around. > > > >Both antennas are inside the attic, both have aprox 60 feet runs of 9913. > > The quad was built exactly to the dimensions given in QST. SWR on the > >quad is 1.5 compared to 1.1 on the j-pole. > I built the same antenna this summer and it booms out there much better than my copper J-pole. Are you feeding it from the side or the bottom? Jerry -- Jerry Bass, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA "Disclaim this!" From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:17 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.encore.com!dmobley From: dmobley@encore.com (Dennis Mobley) Subject: Re: 2m - 5 element quad problems Organization: Encore Computer Corporation Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:36:22 GMT Message-ID: References: <41am3n$3c8@uuneo.neosoft.com> Sender: news@encore.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: maxis.encore.com Lines: 32 gbass@mitre.org (Jerry Bass) writes: >In article , daveb@delphi.com wrote: >> Tom Baltz writes: >> >> >The weekend project was the 5 element 2 meter quad from the January QST >> >article....& compared to my copper pipe J-pole, I'm dissapointed: >> > >> >The quad is performing about half of what the jpole is - both xmit & >> >receive! I assumed it would be the other way around. >> > >> >Both antennas are inside the attic, both have aprox 60 feet runs of 9913. >> > The quad was built exactly to the dimensions given in QST. SWR on the >> >quad is 1.5 compared to 1.1 on the j-pole. >> >I built the same antenna this summer and it booms out there much better >than my copper J-pole. Are you feeding it from the side or the bottom? >Jerry >-- >Jerry Bass, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA >"Disclaim this!" I built the same antenna and it works fine. Did you use 10 ga solid copper wire without the jacket? Dennis Mobley KE4OJB Sunrise, Fl From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:18 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!gatech!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!usenet From: tbaltz@neosoft.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 2m - 5 element quad problems Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 13:34:46 PST Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 968 5800 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <422b07$4c8@uuneo.neosoft.com> References: <41am3n$3c8@uuneo.neosoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sam-slip-j2.neosoft.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.6 In article , dmobley@encore.com says... > >gbass@mitre.org (Jerry Bass) writes: > >>In article , daveb@delphi.com wrote: > >>> Tom Baltz writes: >>> >The quad is performing about half of what the jpole is - both xmit & >>> >receive! I assumed it would be the other way around. > >>I built the same antenna this summer and it booms out there much better >>than my copper J-pole. Are you feeding it from the side or the bottom? > >>Jerry Side for vertical polarization - - fm repeater & simplex work > >I built the same antenna and it works fine. > >Did you use 10 ga solid copper wire without the jacket? > >Dennis Mobley KE4OJB 12ga stranded copper - uninsulated I had laying around Thanks Jerry & Dennis KC5HEG de Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!news1.halcyon.com!coho!ki7zd From: ki7zd@coho.halcyon.com (Randy Seacat) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2m and 10m dipole on same feedline??? Date: 29 Aug 1995 22:25:58 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <42045m$3od@news1.halcyon.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coho.halcyon.com Question for the gurus: I know this will work, what I am after is how well it will, and what to expect if I try it. I have a vertical dipole for 10 meters pulled high into a tree. I would like to add 2 meter elements to the same feedpoint, and use a a switch to change radios in the shack. What I need to know is: By adding the 2meter elemets (dipole) to the same feedpoint as the 10meter, will I throw the swr for a loop? Will I need to make adjustments to the already perfect 10 meter ant? And, WILL THIS WORK, I mean really work the same as doing it seperate? Thanks for ANY and ALL help! Before I mess things totaly up! heheh 73 Randy ki7zd@halcyon.com -- /-/-/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Amateur Radio Station Inet: ki7zd@halcyon.com | KI7ZD | WWA CN87 73's _._ .. __... __.. _.. "If RST > 519, Reduce Power!" From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:20 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 2m and 10m dipole on same feedline??? Date: 31 Aug 1995 06:44:56 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 11 Distribution: world Message-ID: <423lp8$ev3@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <01HUONLFRWS2008V34@uthscsa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , David Feldman wrote: >I'd just try driving your 2M rig right into the 10M dipole and see what >gives. My guess is that the feedline loss will cut down existing SWR on >2M and your rig should be happy. Unfortunately, verticals don't respond as well to length as horizontal antennas. Anything over 3/4 wavelength will cause a very high angle of radiation maybe good for satellites but not so good for repeaters. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:21 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.magicnet.net!news.supernet.net!vivaldi.inoc.dl.nec.com!seas.smu.edu!news.eng.convex.com!hermes.oc.com!news.unt.edu!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: MUENZLERK@uthscsa.edu (Muenzler, Kevin) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 2m and 10m dipole on same feedline??? Date: 30 Aug 1995 12:38:48 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Lines: 44 Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu Message-ID: <01HUONLFRWS2008V34@uthscsa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu ki7zd@coho.halcyon.com (Randy Seacat) writes: >Question for the gurus: >I know this will work, what I am after is how well it will, and what to >expect if I try it. > >I have a vertical dipole for 10 meters pulled high into a tree. I would >like to add 2 meter elements to the same feedpoint, and use a a switch >to change radios in the shack. What I need to know is: >By adding the 2meter elemets (dipole) to the same feedpoint as the >10meter, will I throw the swr for a loop? >Will I need to make adjustments to the already perfect 10 meter ant? >And, WILL THIS WORK, I mean really work the same as doing it seperate? >Thanks for ANY and ALL help! Before I mess things totaly up! heheh >73 >Randy >ki7zd@halcyon.com You should have no problem doing this. The only time you have problems adding elements like this is when two bands are harmonically related. The longer wavelength can detune the shorter one. For example 15 meters and 40 meters. You can use a 40 meter dipole on 15 meters. If you add a 40 meter dipole to an existing 15 meter dipole and the 40 meter dipole doesn't match closely to 15 meters (3/2 wavelength) it can detune the 15 meter dipole. ie. if the 15 meter dipole matches at 21.150MHz then the 40 meter dipole would have to match at 7.050MHz (21.150/3) If it matches at 7.125 then it will detune the 15 meter dipole slightly or at least look like it does. Since 2 meters and 10 meters are not harmonically related you should have no problem. Hope this helps Kevin, WB5RUE muenzlerk@uthscsa.edu "I am Voltohm of Borg, resistance is E/I, power is EI, you will be attenuated!" From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:22 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!dgf From: dgf@netcom.com (David Feldman) Subject: Re: 2m and 10m dipole on same feedline??? Message-ID: Organization: Organization? Me? References: <01HUONLFRWS2008V34@uthscsa.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:48:06 GMT Lines: 17 Sender: dgf@netcom16.netcom.com In article <01HUONLFRWS2008V34@uthscsa.edu> MUENZLERK@uthscsa.edu (Muenzler, Kevin) writes: >ki7zd@coho.halcyon.com (Randy Seacat) writes: > >>Question for the gurus: >>I know this will work, what I am after is how well it will, and what to >>expect if I try it. >> >You should have no problem doing this. The only time you have >problems adding elements like this is when two bands are harmonically 29.2 MHz * 5 = 146.0 MHz. I'd just try driving your 2M rig right into the 10M dipole and see what gives. My guess is that the feedline loss will cut down existing SWR on 2M and your rig should be happy. 73 Dave WB0GAZ dgf@netcom.com From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:23 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rand.org!colvin.rand.org!user From: colvin@hyrax.rand.org (Tim Colvin) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 5/4 wave center-fed dipole Date: 28 Aug 1995 23:53:00 GMT Organization: RAND Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: colvin.rand.org Anyone out there using a 5/4 wave center-fed dipole? It's not something I've seen much mention of, although I admittedly haven't looked *that* hard. According to some calculations I just did, the 5/4 wave center-fed dipole has the greatest directivity of all center-fed dipoles ( D = 3.28 (5.16 dBi), compared with D = 1.64 (2.15 dBi) for a 1/2 wave). The radiation resistance of the 5/4 wave is 106.5 ohms. Anyone have any practical experience with this antenna, or any comments? I realize, by the way, that you pay for the increased directivity with four sidelobes. Maybe some curious soul can build one and let me know how well the damn thing works! Thanks in advance for any information... Tim From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:24 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rand.org!colvin.rand.org!user From: colvin@hyrax.rand.org (Tim Colvin) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/4 wave center-fed dipole Date: 29 Aug 1995 20:30:17 GMT Organization: RAND Lines: 38 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <41vdr4$d13@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: colvin.rand.org In article <41vdr4$d13@chnews.ch.intel.com>, cmoore@sedona.intel.com wrote: > In article , > Tim Colvin wrote: > >Anyone out there using a 5/4 wave center-fed dipole? > > Hi Tim, I am using one on 20m. It is 2*5/8 wavelengths long and > 30 ft. high. I feed it with 300 ohm ladder-line. Works great. > > >the 5/4 wave center-fed > >dipole has the greatest directivity of all center-fed dipoles ( D = 3.28 > >(5.16 dBi), compared with D = 1.64 (2.15 dBi) for a 1/2 wave). > > ELNEC agrees that it has about 3dbd gain. > > >The radiation resistance of the 5/4 wave is 106.5 ohms. Anyone have any > >practical experience with this antenna, or any comments? > > ELNEC says the radiation resistance is 163-j761 > Yeah, I didn't tell the full story. The radiation resistance is 106.5 ohms if fed at a current maximum; it's 213 ohms when center-fed (ignoring any inductive reactance). > >I realize, by the > >way, that you pay for the increased directivity with four sidelobes. > > This is not true. The gain over a half-wave dipole occurs because the > *two* broadside dipoles are more narrow and more focused. By 6/4 > wavelengths the pattern has become cloverleaf so my antenna gives me > broadside gain on 20m and cloverleaf lobes on 17m thereby covering > most of the world's land masses on the two presently best DX bands. > > 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) There are indeed 4 sidelobes for the 5/4 wave center-fed dipole, but the directivity is improved over the 1/2 wave version because the main lobe is much more narrow. Tim From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/4 wave center-fed dipole Date: 29 Aug 1995 17:11:38 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <41vhoa$h14@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , Tim Colvin wrote: >Anyone out there using a 5/4 wave center-fed dipole? ...The >radiation resistance of the 5/4 wave is 106.5 ohms....I realize, by the >way, that you pay for the increased directivity with four sidelobes. Hi again Tim, It just dawned on me (duuhhh) that you are describing a 3/2 wavelength resonant dipole which does have a resistive impedance of around 106.5 ohms and four sidelobes. My previous statements were about the 5/4 wavelength dipole that I thought you were talking about. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:26 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.sandia.gov!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.cerf.net!pagesat.net!a3bsrv.nai.net!mgate.arrl.org!news From: Zack Lau Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/4 wave center-fed dipole Date: 29 Aug 1995 21:37:45 GMT Organization: American Radio Relay League Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4201b9$qen@mgate.arrl.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mgate.arrl.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: colvin@hyrax.rand.org colvin@hyrax.rand.org (Tim Colvin) wrote: >Anyone out there using a 5/4 wave center-fed dipole? It's not something >I've seen much mention of, although I admittedly haven't looked *that* >hard. According to some calculations I just did, the 5/4 wave center-fed >dipole has the greatest directivity of all center-fed dipoles ( D = 3.28 >(5.16 dBi), compared with D = 1.64 (2.15 dBi) for a 1/2 wave). The >radiation resistance of the 5/4 wave is 106.5 ohms. Anyone have any >practical experience with this antenna, or any comments? I realize, by the >way, that you pay for the increased directivity with four sidelobes. Maybe >some curious soul can build one and let me know how well the damn thing >works! Thanks in advance for any information... Its no longer up, but I had a 20 meter open wire fed extended double zepp aimed at Europe that did quite well. The ARRL Antenna book talks about this type of antenna on page 8-34. Another minor problem is the input impedance--you usually need some sort of matching network, as there is also a reactive component. However, it is incorrect that the directivity is the highest for center fed dipoles. You can increase it even more by bending the antenna, though admittedly this is a bit impractical fo HF wire dipoles. Certainly not a problem for someone modeling a wire on a computer :-). Zack Lau KH6CP/1 zlau@arrl.org From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hp-cv!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 5/4 wave center-fed dipole Date: 30 Aug 1995 05:36:25 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 11 Distribution: world Message-ID: <420tcp$43c@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <41vdr4$d13@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article , Tim Colvin wrote: >There are indeed 4 sidelobes for the 5/4 wave center-fed dipole, but the >directivity is improved over the 1/2 wave version because the main lobe is >much more narrow. Tim Sorry Tim, I erroneously inferred that you were saying that it had a total of 4 lobes. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: milway@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 6 Meter Portable without Ground Plane Date: 31 Aug 95 16:24:10 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 12 Message-ID: <199508311649.JAA04999@UCSD.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu I have been playing with 6 Meters. I have a Ham Stick and a center loaded mobile whip, as well as an Cushcraft AR-6. I have a need for an antenna that is shorter than the AR-6, but the Ham Stick and the mobile wip give poor performance due to lack of ground plane. Location is the balcony of a condo at the beach. What kind of antenna should I use. I have about 6 verticle feet to work with and no hope of a good ground plane. Also, how does one check the vswr. I got a HF antenna matcher which does not cover 6M and a UHF/VHF VSWR meter that does not either. I there a meter to match at 6M? The very crude indication on my Xmtr says I have very high VSWR, but really does not provide much info. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:29 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpcvsnz!depaul From: depaul@spk.hp.com (Marc DePaul) Subject: Re: A low height BEAM or medium hgt. WINDOM ? Sender: news@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com (News ) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 19:45:51 GMT References: <809587877.11475@pinetree.microserve.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpspksa.spk.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6] Lines: 20 At such a low height put up the vertical. It will probably outperform the beam at such low heights. Don't put up the vertical so high though, unless you want to start introducing higher angle lobes. I had a two element delta loop up 35ish' and a vertical and made side by side comparisions...The loop was quieter, but there was usually no difference on the other end. Through on the air experiences, I either hear the vertical beating a low beam or comparing close to it. Low = 35ish' or less. Use a elevated vertical with two 1/4 wave radials cut for each working band...Actually, using 1/8 radials make little difference. If you can space TWO verticals 5/8 wave apart and 0 phase them... Then, you'll pick up 1 to 3 S units of gain broadside to the verticals. Email me if you want more details... Marc From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!wupost!news1.inlink.com!usenet From: raiar@inlink.com (Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Aircraft control cable for dipole? Date: 28 Aug 1995 22:27:45 GMT Organization: Inlink Lines: 31 Message-ID: <41tft1$i1q@news1.inlink.com> References: <809291797.17618@pinetree.microserve.com> <41j2us$3gp@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <41j6sl$ef@news.azstarnet.com> <41l40e$qgn@aurora.cs.athabascau.ca> <41lqeu$heq@news.azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip02.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 In article <41lqeu$heq@news.azstarnet.com>, N7WS@azstarnet.com says... > >rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander) wrote: > >>What do you folks down there use for air? >[snip] > >It's called sunshine . These materials are very susceptible to degradation >due to UV. No worry about mildew tho... >> >>regards, >>Ross ve6pdq >>54o 45' N 113o 20' W >>-- >>Ross Alexander, ve6pdq -- (403) 675 6311 -- rwa@cs.athabascau.ca > > >73, Wes > Hi Wes By the replies I've seen, I must have misunderstood your original post, I though you were questioning whether braided stainless was suitable for an antenna. The kind you fly model airplanes with! I have used it as guy wires with insulators separating dipole elements from the tower with no problem for years, more than I care to mention thank you. Gary From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:31 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!rand.org!colvin.rand.org!user From: colvin@hyrax.rand.org (Tim Colvin) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Antenna directivity of turnstile antenna's Date: 28 Aug 1995 17:52:39 GMT Organization: RAND Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <41rpsl$mf7@pukrs7.puk.ac.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: colvin.rand.org In article <41rpsl$mf7@pukrs7.puk.ac.za>, Burt Wilson wrote: > A difficult one. I am looking for the theoretical calculation for the > antenna directivity for a turnstile antenna. To make it even more > difficult the array consists of 64 turnstile antennas arranged in an 8 by > 8 matrix configuration. Frequency I am using is 38.4 MHz. Are there any > books or publications available on this matter. > > Any help greatly appreciated > > Burt Wilson > University of Potchefstroom > South Africa See Antennas by John D. Kraus, pages 726-729. If an individual turnstile is 1/2 wavelength, then its directivity is not much greater than 1, since its field pattern differs from a circle by only 5%. If the elements in your 8x8 array are in phase, then the total pattern won't be much different. Hope this helps. Tim From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!howland.reston.ans.net!lamarck.sura.net!news.uky.edu!news From: tfugate@pop.uky.edu (Terry Fugate) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Antenna directivity of turnstile antenna's Date: 30 Aug 1995 12:14:28 GMT Organization: IT Lines: 39 Message-ID: <421kn4$1r3@service1.uky.edu> References: <41rpsl$mf7@pukrs7.puk.ac.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.163.13.56 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6 In article <41rpsl$mf7@pukrs7.puk.ac.za>, Burt Wilson says: > >A difficult one. I am looking for the theoretical calculation for the >antenna directivity for a turnstile antenna. To make it even more >difficult the array consists of 64 turnstile antennas arranged in an 8 by >8 matrix configuration. Frequency I am using is 38.4 MHz. Are there any >books or publications available on this matter. > >Any help greatly appreciated > >Burt Wilson >University of Potchefstroom >South Africa > While I don't know of any books that could sovle your problem, I suspect that even the bes model would lie to you. To many minute varialbes will bais a real object and push the performance away from what the math might say. I suspect that you will have to build the antenna and then map the pattern. I think our FCC requires actual measurement as opposed to calcuted antenna patterns for FM radio and all bradcast Tv stations. I use a simple turnstile for NOAA low orbital weather sats. There are some nulls in the vertcal pattern that do not show up in any models that I have seen. With my antenna, shifting the reflector elements up or down by even 1/2" really changes the null pattern. I have two trees, each about 50 ft from the antenna, and about the same height, and when the wind moves the trees the antenna null pattern also shifts. Rain and fog also cause the nulls to shift.(I can not wait until our first snow or ice storm) Good luck :) ............................................................................. Terry Fugate UKTV University of Kentucky "The opinions expressed herein are mine, and soley mine. They do not represent the official view of the University of Kentucky, the State of Kentucky, or any agency of any government. If you do not like my opinion, just get on with your life. I will not change your mind and you damn sure can not change mine." From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:33 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu!alex From: alex@anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu (Alex Shrom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: antenna matching with handhelds? Is it critical for transmitting? Date: 30 Aug 1995 00:06:08 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 15 Message-ID: <420a1g$emm@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu I have a realistic htx-202 HT. I have the original rubber duck type antenna, but I get stronger reception with other antennas (e.g., this ...thing... I have, not positive what it is, but it has a 19 inch vertical element with two 3-inch elements about 20 deg off vertical, and a 3-element ground plane, and a cb-type whip antenna). Does the HT automatically tune these (possibly mismatched) antennas for transmitting, or will I screw something up if I try to transmit with them? -- Alex Shrom - ajshrom@phoenix.princeton.edu - Major: History of Cat Art Princeton '98 http://www.princeton.edu/~ajshrom Minor: Yes, unfortunately From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:34 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.005545.62@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <1995Aug20.145346.16420@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <418pd6$gna@maureen.teleport.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 00:55:45 GMT Lines: 73 In article <418pd6$gna@maureen.teleport.com> w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) writes: >> gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) writes: >> In article <40qikf$o2a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: >> [much deleted] >> Well, that's almost true. Assuming adequate skin depth, no transmisson >> line forward currents flow on the outside of coax. And forward transmission >> line currents are always 180 degrees out of phase on inner and outer unless >> there is an unbalanced reactance in series with one of the conductors but >> not the other causing a phase lead or lag. This is all *inside* the coax, >> thanks to skin effect, and has no effect on coax radiation, or lack thereof. >> >The only condition necessary for equal and phase-opposite currents on the >outside of the inner conductor and the inside of the outer conductor is >that no field penetrates the shield (a good assumption for this analysis, >providing the conductor is several skin depths thick). This follows from >Ampere's Law, one of Maxwell's equations. Yep, we agree. A coax is a balanced line, and the Faraday shield effect of the outer keeps it that way no matter what's happening on the outside of the line. >> [much deleted] >> >> So-called voltage baluns and current baluns will *not* do this, unless >> they also happen to function as choke baluns (which fortunately most >> do). A current balun can force equal currents into two antenna legs, >> but unless those legs are physically symmetric with respect to each >> other, and to the coax, this will not stop induction field imbalances >> from causing radiation currents to flow on the coax outside. >> > >As the person who coined the terms "current balun" and "voltage balun", >I've regarded "choke balun" to be the same as "current balun". Can you >point to an example of a balun which is a "current balun" and not a >"choke balun"? Nope. I didn't think I claimed otherwise, but rereading the above that could be the interpretation. >> [more deleted] > >> It should be obvious that a balun is useless for an asymmetric antenna >> like a coax fed vertical monopole. There is nothing balanced about the >> antenna to "bal" to. All you can do in such cases is attempt to shield >> the coax from induction fields. It's already self-shielded against >> radiation due to unbalanced currents *inside* the coax. > >This isn't obvious to me. You can show by modeling or measurement that, >for example, a ground plane antenna with four radials will have >significant current flowing on the outside of the feedline due to >coupling between the feedline and vertical radiating element. This >current can be greatly reduced by placing two "choke" or "current" baluns >at the feedpoint and 1/4 wave below it. All that's saying is that 4 radials make a poor shield. Now assume a metal autobody with a center of roof mounted monopole instead. The coax is well shielded from the antenna fields, and doesn't have induced currents flowing on its outer surface, and can't radiate. No balun needed. I think we are unnecessarily arguing at cross purposes here. I don't claim that an RF choke won't be useful in cases where the feedline is poorly shielded from the antenna fields. What I am suggesting is that it is the *choke* action and not the *balun* action that's why it's useful. This should be particularly apparent when you position it at other than the feedpoint. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:36 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.005856.151@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <808985053.15710@pinetree.microserve.com> <419pnt$8kn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 00:58:56 GMT Lines: 33 In article <419pnt$8kn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: >Gary wrote: > >>And it's also the source of advice to use a feeder that's a multiple >>of 1/2-wave, because the end of a 1/2-wave wire will present a very >>high impedance, thus not loading that leg of the antenna and >>virtually disappearing in regard to antenna resonance and feedpoint >>impedance. Ain't science wonderful? > >Jack replied: > >:Not to nit pick (well, maybe a little), I thought this was the result >:of the belief that the impedance at the feedpoint of the antenna will >:be repeated at the transmitter. Thus, the VSWR reading will be that >:of the antenna, not the (unknown) result of the antenna plus feedline. > >Absolutely Jack, The main flaw in Gary's logic is that the VP of the cable >is the inside electrical length is different that the outside. Most people >I know of follow your logic. So the line length is a multiple of a 1/2 >wave *inside* the cable, and that is usually considerably different than >the electrical *length* outside the cable that controls parallel current >line impedance. Consider hardline or rigid airline. However, that wasn't my point. I suspect most amateurs who subscribe to the wives' tale would measure the coax physical length and not its internal electrical length anyway. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:37 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.010209.250@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <419pnt$8kn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <419qc3$8lo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:02:09 GMT Lines: 25 In article <419qc3$8lo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: >Gary wrote: >>And it's also the source of advice to use a feeder that's a multiple >>of 1/2-wave, because the end of a 1/2-wave wire will present a very >>high impedance, thus not loading that leg of the antenna and >>virtually disappearing in regard to antenna resonance and feedpoint >>impedance. Ain't science wonderful? > >And woops, I almost missed it. If it were a 1/2 wave it would be the >*worse* length desired in most cases. A half wave "repeats" the impedance >at the far end, so the 1/2 wl would present a low impedance and maximum >undesired loading to the feedpoint if the feedline terminates in a ground >or low impedanceat the transmitter. Often times a 1/4 wl outside length is >selected and the cable grounded at that point to insure minimal unwanted >currents. 73 Tom That'd be true if the shack was effectively RF grounded, which I doubt, otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to voodoo. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:38 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.011133.342@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <1995Aug21.141838.20529@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <41b97c$hlg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:11:33 GMT Lines: 40 In article <41b97c$hlg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: >>>>>Simple, a halfwave resonant wire has voltage maximums and current >minimums at each end. From Ohm's Law, R=E/I, so when E is high, >and I is low, R is large. The coax isn't acting as a transmission >line here, where a halfwave would simply repeat the impedance at >one end to the other end. Its outside is just acting as an end fed >wire element. The impedance of such an end fed wire is typically >2,000-3,000 ohms. Meanwhile, the impedance of the end fed quarterwave >that is one leg of the dipole is on the order of 25-35 ohms. So >the currents will divide in inverse proportion to the impedances, >and roughly 10 times as much current will flow in the antenna leg as >on the coax shield, which is what we want the current to do. > >Gary<<<< > >Phew, this is degenerating fast. So now a hunk a feedline routed through >heaven knows what connected at the far end to something unspecified has an >impedance of 2-3k ohms? Gary, the traditional length of cable used to >minimize unwanted currents is a 1/4 wave on the outside of the cable and >the cable is grounded at the 1/4 wave distant point. In order for the half >wave to have a useful impedance for this it would have to be isolated from >other objects and totally de-coupled at the far end. Think about it a bit! More than think about it, I've seen it. Second floor shack, no effective RF ground. The transmitter is just a box floating on the end of the coax. The end feed impedance of a halfwave wire *is* roughly 2000-3000 ohms give or take a bit. The point being that its much higher than the impedance of the quarterwave antenna leg to which it's physically attached at the feedpoint. The halfwave is at a voltage node while the quarterwave is at a current node. Remember, a dipole is ground independent, nothing needs to be grounded for it to work. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:39 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.012111.448@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <1995Aug20.160732.16969@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <808985053.15710@pinetree.microserve.com> <1995Aug21.153156.20941@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <809038173.27610@pinetree.microserve.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:21:11 GMT Lines: 22 In article <809038173.27610@pinetree.microserve.com> jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > >But don't the currents/voltages on a wire antenna repeat every >half-wave? I would agree with you if the "far" end of the wire was >open - that would present a high impedance that would be seen at the >driven end as well. However, in this case the far end is at the >transmitter, connected to the common side of the power source that's >driving the antenna system. This means both ends of a half-wave >length of shield are at a low impedance point. What's the phase at the far end when the wave reaches it? The power up and back traverses a full wave, equal potentials, no current flow. Now if the radio is effectively RF grounded (rare), then the radio common won't be floating and you'd be right. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:40 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.012509.527@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <808374177.23585@pinetree.microserve.com> <412pbl$b3k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <1995Aug20.160732.16969@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <417trq$f22@news.azstarnet.com> <1995Aug21.141838.20529@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <41bcfb$j8c@news.azstarnet.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:25:09 GMT Lines: 19 In article <41bcfb$j8c@news.azstarnet.com> Wes Stewart writes: >Well, you're neglecting to consider the other end. Most transmitters are >(or should be) connected to ground. Rather than think too hard about this >I constructed it in EZNEC. I find a nice current minimum half way down the wire >(coax) and nice maximums at the feed end and ground. Depending on the ground >type, with perfect ground being the worst, there is some pretty significant >pattern distortion and vertical radiation. Maybe "should be", but few are effectively RF grounded. Rerun the simulation with the transmitter floating. Everyone says a dipole is ground independent, so no grounds are needed (except for safety of course, but safety grounds are rarely good RF grounds). Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:42 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.013418.692@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <1995Aug21.175731.21932@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <41brf1$iro@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:34:18 GMT Lines: 35 In article <41brf1$iro@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: >Gary Wrote: >>I'll get to the rest of your post another time, however I want to >>address this point right away. It's true "di" means two, two *poles*, >>which is electrical speak for nodes of maximum voltage, and conversely >>two zeros of current, and a dipole has exactly two voltage nodes and >>two current zeros, one at each end. That's true whether it is physically >>broken for center feed or not. > >Sorry Gary, Page 24-7 and 8 of Jasik show dipoles as having multiple >nodes, they are called full wave dipoles. Page 327 of Electromagnetic >Waves and Radiating Systems shows dipoles as antennas with a feeder that >seperates two halves. Can you please name a reference book that shows a >gamma matched or T matched antenna and calls it a dipole? Sure can, the ITT Radio Engineer's Handbook. Trusty thing. And lo, even the dictionary agrees, and Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia too, that a dipole has two electrical poles. They also mention things like the dipole moment of molecules, which I don't think are cut in the center either. >And what about that "magic" length that has zero volts feedpoint voltage? >Has anyone ever seen a dipole with zero ohms feedpoint impedance? Still >waiting for that answer! Examine any plumber's delight beam. If you don't think the geometric center of the dipole elements are at zero volts, try to light a light bulb with the voltage you find there. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:44 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.021013.919@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <809075098.4692@pinetree.microserve.com> <41co6s$n2u@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 02:10:13 GMT Lines: 105 In article <41co6s$n2u@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: > >I can site examples of antennas of infinitesimal length to several >wavelengths long being called dipoles in antenna engineering specific >texts, but that wasn't my puzzlement. The real question I had was >*where can I find the definition Gary gave*. I was merely trying to You could try a good dictionary. >illustrate how bantering of terms and numbers is used to make things >sound more "official" or factual, such as "a half wave long feedline >presents 2000-3000 ohms to the antenna". My point is it *sounds* very >technical, but that doesn't make it a true or accurate description or even >a "more often than not rule". So tell us great guru, what is the typical impedance of an end fed halfwave wire? It you deviate far from 2000-3000 ohms I want to see some justification. >The wishful thinking that letting the feedline radiate always or even >often improves performance by "filling in the nulls" or adding low >angle radiation. I didn't make that claim, but I'd posit that for many low horizontal dipoles it's probably more true than not. >The false claim that a conventional center fed dipole has zero voltage >at the feedpoint and thus doesn't need a balun. Please tell me how to >build a center fed antenna with zero volts at the feedpoint. See plumber's delight in your nearest ARRL Antenna Book for a dipole with zero voltage at its geometric center. I never claimed that there was zero voltage at the *feedpoint*, which is never precisely at the geometric center, though it may, or may not, be symmetric about the geometric center. >The false claim that tuning of a dipole antenna is altered (mistuned) to >achieve a 50 ohm (or whatever) feedpoint impedance and the mistuning >causes feedpoint voltage to appear. I didn't make that claim at all, and agree it's false. >The false claim that non-resonance of an antenna causes balance to >vanish. I didn't make that claim either, but I did say a non-resonant antenna won't have a voltage zero at the geometric center. That should be obvious since it won't support a standing wave at the frequency. >The claim that transmission lines radiate without unequal or non-180 >degree out of phase currents (referenced between the conductors) >appearing on the conductors, or that there is any way to confine the RF >field in a coaxial transmission line without having equal and 180 degree >out of phase currents appear on the center conductor and the shield. Well that was *your* false claim. A coax with adequate skin depth will *always* have equal and phase opposite currents flowing inside. That's completely unrelated to any currents that may be flowing on the *outside* of the coax. >The claim radiating (parallel) currents do not move to the outer surface >of the coaxial transmission line. They don't move *through* the shield, though if they're going to radiate they do have to be flowing on the outside. How they get there is a separate issue. They may turn the corner at the feedpoint, or they may be the result of an unbalanced induction field. >The claim that the only cause of feedline radiation is induced fields >from mutual coupling between the radiator and the feedline. I said that feedline radiation could also be the result of an electrical imbalance caused by currents turning the corner at the feedpoint. I also suggested that a RF choke could prevent that. >The claim that antenna non-symmetry is the only or most common >cause of feedline radiation when a balanced antenna is fed with a >coaxial line. Predominant is the word I used. >The claim that the feedline of an asymmetrical antenna can not have it's >radiation substantially reduced or eliminated with the addition of a >current or choke balun. I didn't claim that. I said that a balun doesn't have anything to "bal" to when attached to an unbalanced antenna. Of course a choke is a choke and does what a choke does (presents a high impedance to RF), but a balanced to unbalanced transformer has nothing to do with it. >The claim that current or choke baluns can not eliminate or >substantially reduce the primary causes of feedline radiation (induced >and directly conducted currents). Didn't claim that either, a choke is a choke, and does what chokes do. Transformer action has nothing to do with it. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:45 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Message-ID: <1995Aug29.022031.1021@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <1995Aug21.175731.21932@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <41brf1$iro@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <41oa5n$bdv@iii2.iii.net> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 02:20:31 GMT Lines: 24 In article <41oa5n$bdv@iii2.iii.net> sefranek@iii2.iii.net (Thomas C Sefranek) writes: >Time for Tom to step in (it). > >Is it too simple, or am I missing something? > >A ZERO impedance feed cannot have an exciting voltage node... >with NO excitation voltage there is NO current introduced... >A zero impedance feed refelect PERFECTLY the power applied... Since I never said anything about ZERO impedance feeds, I won't comment on that. However, this has given me a thought (painful thing). Does a shorted coax radiate? The inside is connected to the outside at that point, but the net voltage is zero. Does the wave bounce back down the inside or the outside of the coax? And are the currents on the inner and outer in the reverse wave in or out of phase? After all, they're coming from an equipotential point now. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:47 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.pgh.net!w2xo.pgh.pa.us!durham From: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 29 Aug 1995 03:39:29 GMT Organization: Pittsburgh OnLine, Inc. Lines: 99 Message-ID: <41u25h$dsf@dropit.pgh.net> References: <809277478.13565@pinetree.microserve.com> <41qf1e$7j2@maureen.teleport.com> <809624423.16716@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: w2xo.pgh.pa.us X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] OK...you guys have got me suckered into this thread..so here goes... I think it was Tom who posted the multi-claim listing. I agree with your disagreement with all of them. On the outside shield thing, one thing to consider is that you *can*, as several have mentioned, eliminate the current by grounding the feedline 1/4 wave from the antenna feedpoint. HOWEVER...what the average ham calls "ground" may not be GROUND, so , to that extent, it may not work quite as expected, and a balun would be good insurance. Yes, the 1/2 wave thing is *real*. I suggest doubters take 130 feet of rg8, ground the far end to a reasonable ground, and then measure the impedance of the near end to a reasonable ground at 80m. It will be low, probably less than 50 ohms if the cable is laying on the ground. If there were no radiation from the cable, it would be zero. Why is it not zero? Because the wire will radiate! The current flows from the exciting generator to the far end, reflects at the ground (hopefully entirely if the ground is good), then flows back to the sending end, arriving out of phase with the generator. It doesn't completely cancel the voltage because *part of the energy has radiated* . So, a 1/2 wave wire won't completely repeat impedances, but..sorta... Now, there are a couple of interesting things that zoomed right by in this thread. Somewhere it was alluded that the center of a dipole will not be symetrical to ground, voltage wise. It was claimed that no one knows what ground in different parts of the world, etc.. I think this is more true in the static DC world than RF. Consider this argument... a half wave dipole is 72 ohms in free space, right? A vertical 1/4 wave is 36 ohms to ground, if a good ground system is available,etc. Now, take two of these, pick up the fed ends until they are horizontal and pointing away from each other,connect the feedline *between* them...Isnt' that strange..hmmm... 36 in series with 36 is ...VOILA! 72 ohms. I think the sucker is balanced to ground! Make it a "V" (not inverted) with the feedpoint on the ground and work your way up to the dipole case, it *stays* balanced to ground, if both ends are in the same kind of environment. BTW, the driving resistance of a 1/4 wave is 36 ohms and not zero for the same reason that the 1/2 wave grounded on the far end is not zero, radiation dissapates the reflected wave, causing it to not completely cancel the input voltage, and E/I is 36 ohms.(ideally). Now, here is the part that is really interesting that I'd like to hear some comments on.. At one point in the thread someone was talking about zero voltage at the center of a plumber's delight beam. Common sense tells you that this is so, because at any given instant, the two halves of the antenna element are 180 deg out of phase, so if like points are connected together, such as the two inner ends of each 1/4 wave element, the voltage is zero. This sorta proves that the halves of a dipole are balanced to ground, or the boom would be hot with RF. Now, this is the interesting part of this. How can something with no voltage have power? If the voltages are nicely balanced to ground, then you connect them together, there's no voltage to ground, but it still works. We would have to say that "ground" is a very convenient measuring point and does provide a neutral connection for one lead of our measuring devices, but in some cases, it can be elusive. There obviously must be voltage present, but voltage referenced to what? I would love to hear some comments on this. Sounds like ground is elastic! I'm sure that there is some physics guru that can explain all this. I'm ready to learn! Let me comment on one more thing from this thread..then I'll shut up (whew...!) Regarding the zero ohm antenna element caused by the power received from the other elements of the array exactly cancelling the power fed to the antenna element.. This is a horrible condition that occurs as a result of bad antenna design in early AM broadcast directional antenna systems..usually multi-tower designs from the pre-computer days where the mutual impedances were just too complex for the old slip stick to calculate. It's *murder* to get a tower of less than about 5 ohms or so to work at all. THe ground system probably has a couple ohms impedance, even with 120 radials. If the tower is 1 ohm, you're lost 66% of your power! The other problem is that the matching sectio Q will be so high that you will produce SSB, DSB, or some awful thing depending on how you tune the matching network..you'll actually null out parts of the signal in certain directions. One of the AMers here in town has this very problem. Sounds just like 75 meter duck squaking at some places in town. 73 -Jim , W2XO From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:48 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!usenet From: Wes Stewart Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 29 Aug 1995 05:27:44 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Lines: 33 Message-ID: <41u8gg$30s@news.azstarnet.com> References: <808374177.23585@pinetree.microserve.com> <412pbl$b3k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <412uuv$bbq@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <1995Aug20.160732.16969@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <417trq$f22@news.azstarnet.com> <1995Aug21.141838.20529@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <41bcfb$j8c@news.azstarnet.com> <1995Aug29.012509.527@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: sprite36.azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b2 (Windows; I; 16bit) gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) wrote: >In article <41bcfb$j8c@news.azstarnet.com> Wes Stewart writes: >>Well, you're neglecting to consider the other end. Most transmitters are >>(or should be) connected to ground. Rather than think too hard about this >>I constructed it in EZNEC. I find a nice current minimum half way down the wire >>(coax) and nice maximums at the feed end and ground. Depending on the ground >>type, with perfect ground being the worst, there is some pretty significant >>pattern distortion and vertical radiation. > >Maybe "should be", but few are effectively RF grounded. Rerun the >simulation with the transmitter floating. Everyone says a dipole is >ground independent, so no grounds are needed (except for safety of >course, but safety grounds are rarely good RF grounds). > I would run the simulation with the transmitter "floating", but I see no way, in the real world, to have it so. *Somewhere* at some distance, there is *some* ground, however poor. If you are on the second story, then it's that much further away. (OK, before you begin to pick nits, I know we could place the system on a balloon or spacecraft, etc) Let us say for the sake of discussion (argument?) that the additional distance to "ground" is a half wavelength. What changes about your hypothesis? Or mine? Nothing. What if the "grounding" is due only to the capacitance of the transmitter to ground. Then there is some other "optimum" feeder length. The point is, we are dealing with an uncontrolled situation here. Unless of course, we install a current balun at the feedpoint. I thought that was general consensus here. The question was, "Should a balum be used?" The answer is, "Generally speaking, yes." SK N7WS From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:49 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 29 Aug 1995 20:35:03 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: <41vtln$s65@maureen.teleport.com> References: <1995Aug29.022031.1021@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx05-06.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) writes: > . . . Does a shorted coax radiate? The inside is connected to > the outside at that point, but the net voltage is zero. Does > the wave bounce back down the inside or the outside of the coax? > And are the currents on the inner and outer in the reverse > wave in or out of phase? After all, they're coming from an > equipotential point now. In an ideal world, a shorted coax won't radiate, regardless of the length. Because of the shield, the current on the inner conductor is equal and opposite that on the inside of the outer conductor. If we connect the two conductors together, all the current on the inner conductor is used to supply the current on the inside of the outer conductor, so there's none left to flow on the outside. In fact, it looks like this condition will occur so long as there's no path from the center conductor to the cable shield at any point farther down along the cable. (When a dipole is fed by coax, there's a finite impedance from the lower part of the shield to ground and from the center-conductor-connected dipole half to ground, and directly between them. This the path for the dipole case.) Never really thought about this before. Thanks for asking it. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:50 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 05:52:58 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: <809762023.28021@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <1995Aug20.145346.16420@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <418pd6$gna@maureen.teleport.com> <1995Aug29.005545.62@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) writes: >As the person who coined the terms "current balun" and "voltage >balun", I've regarded "choke balun" to be the same as "current >balun". Can you point to an example of a balun which is a "current >balun" and not a "choke balun"? Roy, for the sake of common terminology, what would you call the transformer at the input of my tuner? As you know, it's bifilar wound and the schematic looks like a conventional transformer. It's not a choke-type device, but as we discussed elsewhere, it forces equal currents in the line. Maybe this is outside the group of devices you're referring to, but it's the main example that has caused me to make the distinction between a choke balun and a current balun in this thread. 73, Jack From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 30 Aug 1995 07:52:02 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 109 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <421jd2$kk1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <809762023.28021@pinetree.microserve.com> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com (Gary Coffman) writes: >[The following thought experiment is physically impossible >leads, allowing for those effects.] > >We need to remember that a voltage is a potential difference >between two points. If you choose those two points to be the >far ends of a dipole, you'll measure a maximum voltage since >they are voltage nodes 180 degrees out of phase with respect >to each other. If you move the probes in toward the center >in equal amounts, the potential difference declines. When >you reach the geometric center, the potential difference is >zero. Gary, are you actually saying that if I measure the voltage at each end of the center insulator of my forty meter dipole it will be zero volts? That would mean the coax has zero volts across it also, wouldn't it? That seems almost idiotic! > You could do the same thing with a resistor connected >across a voltage source, as the probes approach the geometric >center of the resistor, the voltage reading goes to zero. >That doesn't mean power isn't dissipated in the resistor, >nor does it mean that power isn't radiated by an antenna. >This has nothing to do with ground. It's just the result >of the physical self-symmetry of the system. > But is the antenna the equilivent of a single resistor? I don't think so. It is split (in the cases that most people in this world would call a dipole) in the center and fed, or fed between a continious center and a point further out (what Gary calls a dipole). In the case of the center fed resistor, the probe would read voltage at the feedpoint. In the Gary dipole (incorrectly called a gamma matched half wave element by most of us) equivilent the voltage at the center would be zero, but across the feedpoint there would definately be voltage! >If we try to make the measurement with one probe connected to >ground, and the other moving along the dipole element, we'll >get readings that are site and configuration dependent. The >antenna fields will induce currents in the ground below them >that will form an image antenna. Depending on the symmetry >of the system, the distance of the antenna above ground, >and the conductance of the various bits of soil under the >antenna, that image will be distorted in various ways. > This has nothing to do with unbalance at the feedpoint! The unbalance will occur even if the antenna is removed from earth and fed by a small generator floating in space. The electrical mass of the feedline can be enough to cause parallel current flow if the antenna is a normal center fed dipole. For example, even if a very small mass generator was floating in space with the dipole, and if the coaxial feedline was 1/4 wavelength long, the feedline radiation will be maximized and be very apparent. >For example, the further the antenna is above ground, the >we probe. > >Another example is to consider the two cases where a dipole >voltage measured. > >But now lets look at the case where the dipole is perpendicular >points on the real antenna, at varying distances, are different, >so the voltages you measure will not be just the result of antenna >height. > >So it's the physical self-symmetry of the antenna that controls >what voltage you'll see when measuring the antenna vis itself, >but it's the physical symmetry of the *system* of antenna and >ground that determine what you'll measure when using a ground >reference for the meter. Since the factors of that symmetry >change with each installation, there isn't much useful in >general we can say about such readings. > That certainly is another cause of feedline currents or unbalanced antenna currents, but it is not the only one. If the shield of a coaxial cable is connected to a non-zero voltage point (as referenced to the electrical mass or parallel impedance of the cable) current will flow. This is because the antenna tries to stay "balanced" (remember each half of a common dipole has a 25-35 ohm impedance with respect to any neutral electrical mass). Since the feedline has a finite parallel impedance and is also (a coaxial line) inherently "unbalanced" with respect to the "balanced" antenna voltages, the feedpoint voltage can cause parallel current flow in it. Gary is incorrect in stating feedpoint terminal voltages are not a major source of concern. He is correct non-symmetry can cause problems, but it is certainly not the ONLY cause of feedline radiation in most dipole (the common center fed kind) installations. A current balun can eliminate or reduce all three major sources of feedline radiation or unwanted current problems. They are non-symmetry, field coupling, and conducted currents. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!news.th-darmstadt.de!fauern!lrz-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.ecrc.de!news.forth.gr!news-ath.forthnet.gr!news.compulink.gr!usenet From: zliangas@athena.compulink.gr (Zacharias Liangas) Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: beam antenna project: HELP Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:44:58 GMT Organization: ME!!!!! Lines: 62 Sender: zliangas@athena.compulink.gr Distribution: world Expires: 10 days Message-ID: <421pjo$fht@news.compulink.gr> Reply-To: zliangas@athena.compulink.gr NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.compulink.gr X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.shortwave:57827 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13495 Dear friends I have a big doubt so I post this masage here First lemme tell you my system configuration fr the moment before I advise you my problem : I use a SONY ICF 7600D , a Lowe HF150 and a Philips Magnavox 2395 all are digital - wire antennas - of 6m sloped 60 deg paralel to az 120 deg - and a hor wire 13 m [aralel to 15 deg az .Both are TV antenna mast guides -home brewn ATU operating 2- 7 mHz for 20 - 5 dB respectively Palce of Reception ; Thessaloniki 40N 23E Due to my interest in SEA I have the particular interest for listening to the folowing radio stations and under the condidtions as below : - STM / V o Malaysia ( dir 120 dg az) in 15295 at mean levels of 2- 3 with QRMers as R Liberty fgrom 15290 at levels S4-5 ( abt 15-25 dB more) R F I from 15300 at nearly same as R L from varius hand made account-ments I understood that a great amount of signal abt 50-60% is lost due to possible reflexions coming from the city's mountains at an angle of 270-025 deg az -RRI Jakarta in 9680 at mean levels (not always receivable) of S1-2 Only V of Turkey is QRMer at 9675 but not always QRMing due to very low mod - R Singapore in 6000 at mean levels of S2to 3 with Deutschlandfunk in 6005 (S4) as the only QRMer or sometimes Radio Dubai at 6000 but at verylow level I asked the experts of my city for making a common antenna constru ction for these 3 freqs of a antenna individual per band , I also read many boks abt antennas found solutions but most of them are un- suitable for my place ( they were quad - X beam for example) as I have minimal room in the 7 level building and possibly can use only small constructions of no more than 4 x 4 sqm PLease help me , and suggest a good protype fr beam antenna(s) under the above conditions Thank you in advance zliangas@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr PLEASE ADIVSE ME YOUR OPINIONS BY EMAIL ONLY ! ====== test for 8-bit æá÷áñéáò ëéÜãêáò Zakaria Liang! (namanya untuk kawan sahaja!) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!moritz From: moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Date: 29 Aug 1995 10:04:25 GMT Organization: Comp.Center (RUS), U of Stuttgart, FRG Lines: 17 Message-ID: <41uon9$19bk@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <009956B9.4AC5D5DE@netins.net> <41t85v$8bs@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de >I must say that I believe the R5 is one of the more underrated antennas >in use by hams. I've had one up at two different QTHs and have worked more >than 100 countries per band on 20, 15, and 10 with it. I do put it up quite >high (about 50') and run an amp. John, Just what is your point? If you run 1 KW into *any* antenna 50' up, you can expect to work lots of countries on 10 to 20. Try three loops, inverted vees or dipoles at the same height as the top of your R5. Apart from this the R5 is generally not underrated. For the type of compromize it is, most agree that it works quite well. 73, Moritz DL5UH From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:57 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!caen!night.primate.wisc.edu!relay!relay2!relay-wo!dtix.dt.navy.mil!navair2.nalda.navy.mil!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!cash_mike.chinalake.navy.mil!user From: mike_cash@mlngw.chinalake.navy.mil (Mike, KN6IS) Subject: Re: Best Vertical HF Antenna ?? Message-ID: Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) Organization: nawc References: <809280437.14974@pinetree.microserve.com> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 21:00:23 GMT Lines: 67 In article <809280437.14974@pinetree.microserve.com>, jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > After several days of hard work, I am now the proud owner of a 200' > dipole up 40'. However, for reasons I won't go into, the antenna must > come down. :( > > It appears that I'm going to be restricted to using a ground-mounted > vertical for 80-10M, although there's a possibility of also putting up > a random wire for 160M. The 160M wire would be 200-400' long, > supported by trees, and I would need to homebrew a tuning unit for use > at the feedpoint (so I can feed it with coax). > > The standard trap verticals I'm considering are the Hy-Gain DX-88 > (188S) and CushCraft AP8A. The Butternut HF9VX and GAP Titan DX are > also in the running, but I would be using the latter at ground level > with radials rather than as elevated, ground independant verticals. > The GAP Voyager DX covers 160M but not the spectrum through 10M, so > I'm not considering this antenna at this time. > > Perhaps someone familiar with the construction of these antennas can > answer a few questions. > > First, which of these products is the most rugged? The GAP appears to > eliminate traps and coils, but all those stubs and tuning sections > hanging off the radiator look pretty fragile. Also, do the GAP > and/or the others require guying? > > Second, is there any truth to several manufacturers' claims of > improved performance as a result of feeding the vertical at the > center, or at the top? > > Also, the area that's cleared behind my house will allow installation > of radials about 50' long (100' diameter). However, the edges of the > clearing are lined by trees about 60' tall. How much of a detriment > is this likely to be to antenna effectiveness on the higher HF bands? > > Finally, I seem to remember reading about a trick concerning laying > radials in the ground. It had something to with with the use of a > certain tool (edger?) to make the job easier. Anyone know? > > Any opinions on these issues (or alternate approaches) will be greatly > appreciated. Installing the radials and burying the coax will have to > be done before winter sets in, so I need to make a decision quickly. > > 73 and Thanks, > > Jack WB3U Jack, I have been using the Cushcraft AP8A for three years. It is ground mounted with 32 radials, four at .25wl for each band. Just like the directions say. However, I did make one mod. I connected the end of the 80 meter radials to my chainlink fence. About 2000' long. I live on 2.5 acres in the desert. The antenna is about 100' from my house, no obstructions. The reports that I get on all bands are excellent. I also work a lot of DX with no problem. The antenna has survied 90 to 100 mph winds with no problem. I am very happy with the antenna. My four element quad only gets about two "s" units better report on a good day, sometimes much less. I used a hoe for digging a trench for each radial. You can use a garden trowel but I did not have one. My radials are about three to four inches below ground level. Hope this helps. -- Mike, KN6IS From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best VHF antenna analyzer ; archives Date: 29 Aug 1995 13:48:49 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 22 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41vju1$1p1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41upil$2j88@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <41upil$2j88@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de>, moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () writes: > >He mentioned that it is very difficult to measure an antenna >pattern anywhere near to the accuracy it can be calculated by NEC 2, >and would also require a proper test site. > >Therefore he concluded that one is not too far off by building the antenna >to the dimensions given by NEC2. > > Hi Mortz, Naturally I would like to place my 2 cents in this. With any model, it should be confirmed when built. It is foolish not to, since the transition from a perfect world of models to the real world can result in many errors. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:49:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!moritz From: moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best VHF antenna analyzer ; archives Date: 31 Aug 1995 07:57:12 GMT Organization: Comp.Center (RUS), U of Stuttgart, FRG Lines: 20 Message-ID: <423q0o$27l0@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <41upil$2j88@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> <41vju1$1p1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de >Hi Mortz, > >Naturally I would like to place my 2 cents in this. With any model, it >should be confirmed when built. It is foolish not to, since the transition >from a perfect world of models to the real world can result in many >errors. Only too true, Tom and OM Rainer had his antennas tested (thats why he concluded that the NEC 2 results are accurate). But if someone tried to optimize an antenna on a trial and error basis, without a real test site, he will not get very far, no matter how many digits his field strength meter has. 73, Moritz DL5UH From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:00 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!ghiscox From: "George L. Hiscox" Subject: Re: Bobtail Curtain Anyone? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: ghiscox@netcom20.netcom.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:10:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b6 (Windows; I; 16bit) Lines: 12 I forgot to add that I have posted the top fed bobtail curtain model (cleverly named TOPBOB40.EZ) at emclab.ee.umr.edu in /pub/aces/NEC for anonymous ftp. 73/George -- | George L. Hiscox | Very funny Scotty... Now | | ghiscox@netcom.com | beam down my clothes !!! | | WA6RIK @ WB6YMH.#socal.ca.usa.na | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:01 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!ghiscox From: "George L. Hiscox" Subject: Bobtail Curtain Anyone? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: ghiscox@netcom20.netcom.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 19:06:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b6 (Windows; I; 16bit) Lines: 32 Have been having alot of fun modeling antennas since I got the new EZNEC software. Last night I started playing with the bobtail curtain antenna using EZNEC. Also did some reading on the bobtail curtain in both Devoldere and the ARRL Antenna Book. Both those references and the the BOBTAILC.EZ file that came with the EZNEC software had the antenna feedpoint at the lower end of the middle vertical wire. The feedpoint impedance was high, on the order of several thousand ohms, requiring a parallel tuned circuit at the feedpoint. Having just finished modeling a half-square which is fed at one top corner, I decided to see what would happen if I fed the bobtail at the top of the middle vertical wire instead of at the bottom. Modeling the (40 meter) bobtail in this fashion over a Mininec VG ground it was possible to achieve gain of over 8dbi with a takeoff angle of 19 degrees while feeding the antenna directly with 50 ohm feedline. Azimuth beamwidth was 44 degrees. Does anyone have any experience feeding a bobtail curtain in this manner? What are the drawbacks aside from the obvious one of the weight of the feedline at the center of the antenna? Is the bobtail curtain fed in such a fashion still considered a bobtail curtain, or is it another "Real McCoy?" 73/George -- | George L. Hiscox | Very funny Scotty... Now | | ghiscox@netcom.com | beam down my clothes !!! | | WA6RIK @ WB6YMH.#socal.ca.usa.na | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!bga.com!news From: you@somehost.somedomain (x) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: build micpre for recording project Date: 29 Aug 1995 16:43:52 GMT Organization: Your Organization Lines: 8 Message-ID: <41vg48$o9m@giga.bga.com> Reply-To: majec@bga.com NNTP-Posting-Host: jake-5o.aip.realtime.net X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ Any one know a souce for designs of audio pre amps . I want to try my hand a building some mic preamps for recording applications. Old manuals or sourches of schematics would be perfect. Thanks Ed Guinn kb5ruf majec@bga.com From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!wupost!news1.inlink.com!usenet From: raiar@inlink.com (Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Copper Tube "J-Pole" Date: 28 Aug 1995 00:28:00 GMT Organization: Inlink Lines: 84 Message-ID: <41r2ig$3je@news1.inlink.com> References: <41etrr$cnk_001@ptl1.jaring.my> <8AFE232.09EF0017A0.uuout@kandy.com> <41q5b8$m3j@superb.csc.ti.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip53.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 Hi Mitch I don't know what happened, but something crashed, so to make sure you get the reply, I have copied from my mail.log. Gary From raiar@inlink.com Sun Aug 27 19:25:01 1995 To: oops@msg.ti.com Subject: Re: Copper Tube "J-Pole" - 2 Attachments [1/1] From: raiar@inlink.com (Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.) Organization: Inlink Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 19:24:54 PST X-Mailer: WinVN 0.99.5 In-Reply-To: <41q5b8$m3j@superb.csc.ti.com> References: <41etrr$cnk_001@ptl1.jaring.my> <8AFE232.09EF0017A0.uuout@kandy.com> <41q5b8$m3j@superb.csc.ti.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; Boundary="*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-*" --*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-* Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >Not meaning to change the subject here, but I have a question regarding your >2m/70cm j-pole design. > >Does this antenna require two feedlines (i.e. 1 for 2m and another for 70cm)? >If not, would you mind posting the plans? I have several plans I've >accumulated over time but none of them address combining the two feedlines >into one. Guess I could use a duplexer to accomplish this -- but only if it' >s >necessary. > >Thanks and 73 >Mitchell KC5MKW > > Hi Mitch I am enclosing the plans for my copper cactus antennas. Your question on combining the coax, There are three ways to do this, you already mentioned the first. The second is to connect a coax of 1/4 or 1/2 wavelength to each connect point and join them using a T-connector to connect your feed in coax of any length. Make sure both coaxes are either 1/4 or 1/2 wavelength not one of each both 1/4 or both 1/2 wavelengths. The third way, on my copper cactus plans anyhow, is to use the proper coax for the highest band, since you mentioned 2-meter, 440, I would suggest a minimum of semi-rigid hardline for the 440s sake. This coax gets connected to the 2-meter part of the antenna. At the 440 part, connect a shorting wire, like 14 guage copper, between the normal connect points for the coax. This will make the antenna much easier to tune. OK in the tuning stub cap drill a hole and install a brass machine screw and wind it all the way in. Now tune up the 440 antenna first by unwinding the screw, it usually takes about 1/2 inch out. Then tune the 2-meter the same way, but that one should end up about 1/4 inch out. Then go back to the 440 and recheck that, for every two turns out on the 440 from this point, you may have to turn the 2-meter back in about 1/8 turn. The connect points of the coax are fairly accurate, do not use an swr meter for changing the location of the connect points as it will shift the impedance of the connect point sometimes as high as 700 ohms. The dimensions and connect point shown in my plans, depending on construction methods, should be right at 50 ohm impedance, down 1/2 inch is like 300 ohms and up 1/2 inch is like 500 ohms. So get it close to the measurements shown. Gary Two Attachments, Copper Cactus and Stacked J NOTE: I will send each page separate, that may be where it crashed. Gary From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news From: Roger A. Cox <75052.3037@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Discone Mounted Upside Down? Date: 30 Aug 1995 02:11:15 GMT Organization: Telex Communications, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <420hc4$fed$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> References: <41oo77$gm@sulla.cyberstore.ca> Gary, Sometimes inverted discones are constucted at HF because of their size. I assume that since it is on a roof, it probably is VHF or possibly above 20 MHz. In HF inverted-discones, they are usually mounted on the ground with the disc part forming the ground radials. The cone part is a broadband monopole, which sometimes looks like a HUGE bicycle wheel suspended from a central tower. I have seen these operate from 3 to 30 MHz, broadband. 73, Roger WB0DGF From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!sun4nl!news.nic.surfnet.nl!tuegate.tue.nl!usenet From: ESRAC Eindhoven Student Radio Amateur Club Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: FB33 + UFB13..?? Date: 31 Aug 1995 10:50:48 GMT Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands Lines: 8 Message-ID: <424468$2lc@tuegate.tue.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc3.esrac.ele.tue.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; Linux 1.2.9 i486) X-URL: news:rec.radio.amateur.antenna Is there someone who has tried the combination of the Fritzel FB33 and UFB13 WARC dipole on the SAME boom? Is there any interaction to expect? Please mail your experiences to esrac@stack.urc.tue.nl 73 de Aurelio at PI50TUE From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:06 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ground-mounted vertical quirks Date: 30 Aug 1995 11:59:09 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 35 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4221sd$nr6@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <421pr1$a9a@news.cc.oberlin.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Bill, I don't know if you say the earlier reply I gave to you, so let me repeat it. First of all I used to live in South Amherst at the corner of Russia and Quarry roads. I had the 140 foot tower with stacked 40 and 20 meter antennas, and a smaller 85 footer near the house if you ever remember seeing them. I loved that area. There are two likely sources of RFI from your antenna. Direct radiation from the antenna can be getting into your neighbors stuff. If this is the case, there is very little you can do about it at your end without relocating the antenna or reducing power. The most reliable solution would be RFI proofing the neighbors equipment. If this is the problem adding radials will likely make the problem worse because antenna efficiency and field strength will certainly increase! The second problem source could be radiated fields or conducted RF currents getting back into common wiring paths and winding up at the neighbors. If this is the case, adding more radials and/or adding a choke balun in the feedline between the antenna and the affected wiring may help. A choke balun will "choke off" unwanted currents flowing down the outside of the coax and reduce or eliminate interference if this is the problem. Adding radials will divide the base current of the vertical between more wires, reducing the level of RF unintentionally radiated by the radials. More radials will also reduce "pumping" of the ground side of the feedpoint with RF, and lower unwanted parallel feedline currents. Unfortunately the vertical concentrates your transmitters signal along the horizon. I hope you won't be stuck using low dipoles in your location to cure the RFI. I hope this helps, RFI can be exasperating. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.oberlin.edu!ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu!PRUTH From: pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Ground-mounted vertical quirks Date: 30 Aug 1995 13:41:53 GMT Organization: Oberlin College, Oberlin, Ohio Lines: 20 Message-ID: <421pr1$a9a@news.cc.oberlin.edu> Reply-To: pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu I will be using my Butternut HF6V once again as my primary antenna instead of my G5RV when Yaesu returns my FL7000 autotuner/amp after repairs. Although the ground-mounted HF6V loads well on most WARC bands and accepts the 500w from the amp I come back to the problem of causing my neighbors' appliances to sing and dance whenever I use the amp. Is this an unavoidable result of using a ground-mounted vertical, or is there some trick to putting rf out to the horizon without activating my neighbors' electronics? I am using a ground rod and four 50' ground radials at the moment. I am also open to recommendations of a multiband antenna that can be handled by an autotuner that can only handle up to a 3:1 SWR, which rules out using the G5RV. I'm thinking of trying a couple 1/4 wave counterpoise wires for each band, and just laying the insulated wires on top of the ground into the ravine behind our rental. Thanks for your help. --Bill KB8USZ pruth@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.rcinet.com!sally.dma.org!millersg From: millersg@dma.org (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Half-square antenna performance? Date: 28 Aug 1995 17:08:42 GMT Organization: Dayton Microcomputer Association; Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 25 Message-ID: <41st6q$5b8@sally.dma.org> References: <41nce0$emf@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dmapub.dma.org In article <41nce0$emf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, W8JI Tom wrote: >> The gain was around 5.5 dBi (don't start that thread again, pse) >>with a take-off angle of less than 20 degrees. > >Gee that's not much gain. What does a dipole the height over the same soil >model? Where is it fed at? You'd have to have a tall support to get a horizontal antenna with similar gain at low take off angles. We used a half square on 80m at W8LT (Ohio State U) about 10 years ago. It was suspended between flagpoles of Ohio Stadium (horseshoe shaped) with the top over 100 feet high. The performance for long haul DX was excellent. It outperformed our 600 foot longwire at 90 feet for most DX paths (The LW was also a good DX performer) - sometimes by a substantial margin, 5 dB or more. Some of the difference may have been due to polarity. My best experience was working YB0WR longpath through a big east coast pile. One call with 100 watts (the amp hadn't warmed up yet). I'd highly the half square as a simple antenna for low band DX. -- Steve Miller millersg@dmapub.dma.org WD8IXE - Ridin' the aethereal waves From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:09 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Half-square antenna performance? Date: 29 Aug 1995 09:45:38 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 10 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <41v5m2$29m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41st6q$5b8@sally.dma.org> Reply-To: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I modeled a half square and this is the program I use said happens over the same type of grounds. The gain is roughly 3 dB better than a single vertical element, and 1.5 dB weaker than a pair of regular verticals phased. A dipole over the same ground needed to be 50 feet high compared to 35 feet or so for the half square for the same gain at 22 degrees (on 40 meters). How does this agree with other programs? 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:10 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!ghiscox From: "George L. Hiscox" Subject: Re: Half-square antenna performance? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: ghiscox@netcom17.netcom.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <41st6q$5b8@sally.dma.org> <41v5m2$29m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:39:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b6 (Windows; I; 16bit) Lines: 21 After seeing the discussion here in rec.radio.antennas, I modeled a 40 meter half-square using EZNEC. The results looked very promising to me. Modeled with the bottom ends of the vertical wires 10' above a Mininec vg ground, the takeoff angle was 16 degrees! Beamwidth on the elevation plot was 27 degrees with a azimuth plot beamwidth of 74 degrees. Gain figures were in line with those already posted and perhaps a little bit better. I posted the model for anonymous ftp at emclab.ee.umr.edu in /pub/aces/NEC. George -- | George L. Hiscox | Very funny Scotty... Now | | ghiscox@netcom.com | beam down my clothes !!! | | WA6RIK @ WB6YMH.#socal.ca.usa.na | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:11 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!ncrcae!news From: Tom WB4iUX Subject: Re: Half-square antenna performance? Message-ID: Sender: news@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.ATTGIS.COM (news) Reply-To: Tom.Skelton@ClemsonSC.ATTGIS.COM (TSKELTON) Organization: AT&T GIS X-Newsreader: DiscussIT 2.0 for MS Windows [AT&T Software Products Division] References: <41st6q$5b8@sally.dma.org><41v5m2$29m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:34:06 GMT Lines: 42 I just re-checked my 40m half square versus 40m 1/2 wave dipole. The half square is modeled with the ends 10 ft off the ground over 'real ground'. I had to raise the 40m dipole to 125 ft above 'real ground' to get a 16 degree takeoff angle, which is what I get with the half square. I'm using ELNEC/MaxP version 3.0. At 125 ft above 'real ground', the half wave dipole exhibited about 1.5 dB more gain than the half square. However, how many dB are lost in the extra 80 to 90 feet you'd need to get to the dipole versus the half square? YMMV,but it's around 1 to 2 dB depending on your coax (don't have the charts here with me now).. Good discussion...good points. I just can't wait to get this beast up in the air. Heard Island is coming and I need it on 40! Cheers and DX, friends.... 73, Tom WB4iUX Tom.Skelton@ClemsonSC.ATTGIS.COM ( at least till the RIF!) ==========W8JI Tom, 8/29/95========== I modeled a half square and this is the program I use said happens over the same type of grounds. The gain is roughly 3 dB better than a single vertical element, and 1.5 dB weaker than a pair of regular verticals phased. A dipole over the same ground needed to be 50 feet high compared to 35 feet or so for the half square for the same gain at 22 degrees (on 40 meters). How does this agree with other programs? 73 Tom **************************************** DX IS!!! BE A BELIEVER!!! BE ONE OF THE DESERVING!!!! **************************************** From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:16 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!timbuk.cray.com!equalizer!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!news-mail-gateway From: mailserv@ms.n7nei.ampr.ORG (Postmaster) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #377 (fwd) Date: 28 Aug 95 21:22:51 GMT Organization: ucsd usenet gateway Lines: 486 Message-ID: <98533@ms.n7nei.ampr.org> Reply-To: n7nei@dn.n7nei.ampr.org NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu Forwarded message follows: > From POP3@wln.com. Mon Aug 28 13:21:14 1995 > Received: by ms.n7nei.ampr.org (JNOS1.10k) with POP3 > id AA98528 ; Mon, 28 Aug 95 13:21:14 PDT > Received: from ucsd.edu by rs6a.wln.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.06) > id AA25116; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:31:44 -0800 > Received: by mail.ucsd.edu; id EAA25917 > sendmail 8.6.12/UCSD-2.2-sun > Mon, 28 Aug 1995 04:30:22 -0700 for ham-ant-list > Errors-To: ham-ant-relay@ucsd.edu > Sender: ham-ant-relay@ucsd.edu > Precedence: List > Received: by mail.ucsd.edu; id EAA25902 > sendmail 8.6.12/UCSD-2.2-sun > Mon, 28 Aug 1995 04:30:19 -0700 for ham-ant-ddist > Message-Id: <199508281130.EAA25902@mail.ucsd.edu> > Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 04:30:17 PDT > From: Ham-Ant Mailing List and Newsgroup > Errors-To: Ham-Ant-Errors@ucsd.edu > Reply-To: Ham-Ant@ucsd.edu > Precedence: List > Subject: Ham-Ant Digest V95 #377 > To: Ham-Ant@ucsd.edu > Status: O > X-Status: Ham-Ant Digest Mon, 28 Aug 95 Volume 95 : Issue 377 Today's Topics: (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 A low height BEAM or medium hgt. WINDOM ? Alpha delta sloper directionality ? G5RV antenna inquiry. Ladder Line Loss (2 msgs) Looking for April '92 CQ reprint . . . Prelim Review: GAP TITAN Rohn HBX Info Wanted Tinted Window Question What antenna would you use??? (3 msgs) What is a WINDOM antenna ? Which is the best antenna book? (2 msgs) Send Replies or notes for publication to: Send subscription requests to: Problems you can't solve otherwise to brian@ucsd.edu. Archives of past issues of the Ham-Ant Digest are available (by FTP only) from ftp.UCSD.Edu in directory "mailarchives/ham-ant". We trust that readers are intelligent enough to realize that all text herein consists of personal comments and does not represent the official policies or positions of any party. Your mileage may vary. So there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 1995 00:14:49 -0400 From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Subject: (Dis)Cone Antenna in Recent '73 >On the other hand, has Wayne started accepting articles from authors who >write the cold fusion and telekenesis stuff in their spare time? ;^) -- >Thomas J. Farish Thomas, Did you ever trust 73 magazine for accuracy? Tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 05:30:41 GMT From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Subject: A low height BEAM or medium hgt. WINDOM ? buddy10@aol.com (BUDDY10) wrote: >What would be better ? A Triband BEAM(10-15-20m) at about 25' or >a Multi-band Windom at about 40' ? The Beam would have a rotator to << snip >> >OR .... How about this... >A BEAM at about 25' or a VERTICAL (GAP,R5,Butternut) on a pole at >about 40'(NO ground radials). In order of preference, I'd take the beam first, then the Windom, then the vertical. Of course, with the beam, you lose access to the lower bands. Also, 10-15-20M are in pretty bad shape due to the sunspot cycle. Why not put up the beam *and* the Windom? 73, Jack WB3U ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 21:43:14 GMT From: parsaf@ilhawaii.net (Pat Wright) Subject: Alpha delta sloper directionality ? Is my alpha delta sloper S.W.L. antenna directional ? If so in what manner and how strong .Mahalo's ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 1995 15:52:31 GMT From: cmoore@sedona.intel Subject: G5RV antenna inquiry. In article , Anonymous <> wrote: > If you've got a "real" antenna tuner, you'll be better of feeding >however much antenna you can put up (102' or more is better) with >ladder-line and use it that way. Whether more or less than 102 ft is better depends on the desired radiation pattern. Between 10/8 WL and 12/8 WL, the radiation pattern becomes multi-lobed with almost no broadside pattern. Years ago, I put up my first antenna in AZ which was a G5RV. I thought it wasn't working until I obtained Antennas West technical paper on G5RVs and found I was radiating most of my 20m RF over the oceans. I had turned it broadside to Europe and never heard a European station. After reading the tech note, I rotated the G5RV to place one of the cloverleaf lobes aimed at Europe and European stations started pouring in. Signal reports improved again when I got rid of the coax entirely. Signal reports improved again when I shortened it to 88 ft and returned it broadside to Europe. 88 ft is 2*5/8 on 20m with about 3dbd gain. If one replaces coax with ladder-line and the measured SWR at the transmitter site increases, that is good news. Why? Because to a certain extent, the lossy coax is acting like a dummy load and power is being wasted as heat thus lowering the SWR. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 21:27:09 GMT From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Subject: Ladder Line Loss Wes, Many thanks for taking time to run this antenna through EZNEC for me. There are two primary differences in our results. The first is the "flat" line loss. I didn't see the charts you mentioned, but I'm using TL.EXE for this and it assumes 0.01 dB / 100'. This is not an insignificant difference, but relative to my antenna, this isn't the primary cause of the loss difference we calculated. As I stated in the earlier post, Mininec shows an antenna feedpoint impedance of 1.26-j489 for this antenna. This is the most significant discrepancy in our results. I went back and played with the program again after reading your post, and I discovered something I hadn't noticed before. No matter what numbers I plug in for ground "Relative Dielectric Constant" and "Conductivity", the feedpoint impedance stays the same. Only height above ground causes it to change. My conclusion is that Mininec doesn't use conductivity in calculating feedpoint impedance, although it might for radiation patterns. Anyway, the results you obtained for feedpoint impedance translate to a worst-case transmission line loss of 0.89 dB. I can live with that. Thanks again for your help with this. BTW, being off the air for the last five years, I sure wasn't prepared for the poor band conditions. It's almost unbelievable to me that 15M is closed practically the entire day. :( 73, Jack WB3U ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 21:33:17 GMT From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Subject: Ladder Line Loss w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) wrote: >OOps, never mind, I missed something. Hee hee.Jack, that looks like >it should tune. Yes, it should. My tuner has been modified to a PI configuration and I might change it back to T to see it it relieves this problem. Othersise, I'll just use an external transformer between the rig and tuner. I've done that before and it works quite well for matching antennas that would normally be outside the tuner's range. BTW, you sent e-mail to me about 4 or 5 days ago and I replied, also by e-mail. Our local POP server is really messed up right now though - if you got my reply, would you mind posting a short confirmaiton here in this thread for me? Sorry to waste bandwidth with this, but I can't get return receipts anymore and a number of us here suspect that our mail isn't getting out. Thanks & 73, Jack WB3U ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 1995 18:37:56 GMT From: Joe Pfeuffer Subject: Looking for April '92 CQ reprint . . . . . on PVC vertical. My library doesn't go back thaat far. Any help appreciated. 73 - Joe KW1K 4838 S. Bella Vista Dr. Veradale, WA 99037 Fax 509-926-8241 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 02:05:39 GMT From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: Prelim Review: GAP TITAN Relax, I was just being objective. I think we all get 599 reports in contest no mater how weak we are. The dipole may skew your results a little but not much. If you take QST, check the sept 95 issue page 36, last paragraph in the article called A receiving Antenna that Rejects Local Noise. There is a lot of truth to it. Aren't antennas fun? Robert S. French (rfrench@Xenon.Stanford.EDU) wrote: : In article , : Steve Ellington wrote: : >Great, but you can't compare the Gap with something that isn't there. : No, but I can compare general experience over a period of months. If : I have previously been unable to call anyone on 20m SSB and now am : able to do it repeatedly to various parts of the country, I think it's : an observable difference. I never claimed this was a perfect : double-blind test. Maybe the ionosphere was particularly friendly : that one night. : >Contest results never count. Signals are stronger due to huge amplifiers etc. : Oh, I see. People can hear me better because they're transmitting : stronger signals. : >Hmmm!! I can hear signals on 80 meters by touching the antenna input : >of my HQ129 with my finger! This must be a bad location indeed. : Maybe you're just REALLY tall :-) : >Could you stick up a dipole and compare them? This is the only thing that : >means anything. : I wish I could, but the only way I can realistically do this is by : having the dipole cut across the top of the GAP, which will of course : then skew the results. I can try to do something, but I have a : feeling you'll consider my results just as invalid. : Rob -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 04:03:11 GMT From: nj0m@primenet.com (John S. Hill) Subject: Rohn HBX Info Wanted In article <41o0v0$64p@redstone.interpath.net>, KD4YU@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net (Curt Phillips) wrote: > I'm looking at a Rohn HBX tower (approx. 64 ft) to purchase to put >a Hygain TH7 on. > a) Does anyone have the data on the max antenna area that this >tower is rated for? Though it is supposed to be a free standing tower, >how much might guying it add to the acceptable windload area? > b) What should a 64' Rohn HBX sell for used? It's "on the ground" >and in good, but not great shape (some rust spots that need to be >painted, a couple of bent spots that will need to be straightened >and reinforced). > Thanks for any input. Curt, I've had an HBX-56 up for 10 years now with a TH5MK2 and 2M vertical on it. Though I can honestly say I've never gotten a 70MPH blow here in the city, I decided to take the chance. You certainly don't want to put a load like mine on the BX-64. I've been up on top of both and the HBX-56 is all the lighter you would want to go. A better choice would be the HDBX-48 and even then it's against the recommendations of Rohn, though I think they're a bit conservative as far as boom length and the twisting element associated with it. YMMV. Good Luck...John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 19:41:11 GMT From: glidden@greene.pgh.net (Jack Glidden) Subject: Tinted Window Question I have been told told that the tinting that comes from the factory on newer model veh. is actually a metal that is inside the glass. This has the effect of really screwing up any type of thru the glass antenna. Is this true? Where or who should I call to confirm this? I have a 92 Jimmy with factory tint on all glass except the front. I need to mount some antennas and don't want to drill or use mag mounts. I am planning to mount a 2 meter and a 10 meter antenna. If you hav any answers please send e-mail. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 01:43:02 GMT From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Subject: What antenna would you use??? In article <0099583B.9A07F202@netins.net>, crcarlson@netins.net wrote: > . . . I have a substantial number of trees that are probably about >40-50 feet up and somewhere near 100 feet or more apart. If you, >fellow hams, were going to put up something you could build with, >say, a soldering iron, some ladder line, and a bunch of wire, what >would you build? I just installed my favorite antenna two days ago - it's a 200' dipole fed with ladder line. Bear in mind though that you can't feed an antenna like this with the typical tuner that has a balun at the output. You *must* either move the balun to the input of the tuner (that's what I did), or use a link-coupled Matchbox type tuner. 73 & Gud Luck, Jack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 05:52:26 GMT From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Subject: What antenna would you use??? subich@ramlink.net (Joe Subich) wrote: >You CAN use a balun on the output if it is a W2DU-type (ferrite >choke) 4:1 current balun. Check the QST article on them by John >Belrose two years or so ago. With all due respect to the author of that article, choke baluns have a finite impedance at each frequency of operation. If the feedpoint impedance is excessive due to antenna reactance, the impedance of the balun may not be sufficient to prevent excessive current flow and power loss in the ferrite. IMO, the only way to feed a non-resonant dipole with *any* balun is to run a program that calculates the feedpoint impedance at the tuner for each band of operation. Then, that impedance can be compared to the capabilities of the balun. 73, Jack WB3U ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 1995 03:31:23 GMT From: subich@ramlink.net (Joe Subich) Subject: What antenna would you use??? In <809574218.8615@pinetree.microserve.com>, jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > >I just installed my favorite antenna two days ago - it's a 200' >dipole fed with ladder line. Bear in mind though that you can't feed >an antenna like this with the typical tuner that has a balun at the >output. You *must* either move the balun to the input of the tuner >(that's what I did), or use a link-coupled Matchbox type tuner. > You CAN use a balun on the output if it is a W2DU-type (ferrite choke) 4:1 current balun. Check the QST article on them by John Belrose two years or so ago. ... Joe Subich, AD8I (subich@ramlink.net) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 01:58:38 GMT From: n4lq@iglou.iglou.com (Steve Ellington) Subject: What is a WINDOM antenna ? About one third the way through the town is a large resturant where local school band members all eat. This is why the town of Windom was named after the antenna. Indeed, a multiband feeder system. Ted Zateslo (zateslo@geomag.gly.fsu.edu) wrote: : In article <00001fea+00000cf8@msn.com> WLHamaty@msn.com (Luke Hamaty) writes: : >I drove through Windom, North Carolina last weekend. It's on Hwy. 19 : >just north of Burnsville up in the mountains. Didn't see much besides : >the sign. I wonder whether the name of the town has anything to do : >with the antenna, or vice-versa? : The Windom antenna was invented in the 30s by Loren Windom, W8GZ, : who is still in the Callbook (he's 90 now). Of course, it's : always possible that he's related to the founders of Windom, NC... : Ted Zateslo, W1XO -- Steve n4lq@iglou.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 1995 04:06:18 GMT From: zimmatore@randomc.com Subject: Which is the best antenna book? In <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca>, morganp@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () writes: >I am looking for a book with info on making antenna's (VHF antenna's that >is) & need to know where to find a book and what to look for, any suggestions >on books? I think the best antenna book I have (although there are a few good ones like the ARRL book already mentioned is: Practical Antenna Handbook by Joesph J. Carr TAB Books 73 de John Zimmatore, AD4ZH ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 17:55:51 GMT From: novatech@eskimo.com (Steven Swift) Subject: Which is the best antenna book? zimmatore@randomc.com writes: >In <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca>, morganp@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () writes: >>I am looking for a book with info on making antenna's (VHF antenna's that >>is) & need to know where to find a book and what to look for, any suggestions >>on books? >I think the best antenna book I have (although there are a few good ones >like the ARRL book already mentioned is: >Practical Antenna Handbook by Joesph J. Carr TAB Books I don't know about his Antenna book, but I have Joseph Carr's book "Secrets of RF Circuit Design" which is loaded with errors, mistakes and complete misunderstanding of RF circuit design. I would be wary of other books written by him. At least in this book, he ignores reality. Besides the technical errors, it is badly written. >73 de John Zimmatore, AD4ZH -- Steven D. Swift, P.E. ( novatech@eskimo.com ) NOVATECH INSTRUMENTS, INC. 1530 Eastlake Avenue East, Suite 303 206.322.1562, FAX 206.328.6904 Seattle, Washington 98102 USA ------------------------------ End of Ham-Ant Digest V95 #377 ****************************** From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:17 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.onr.com!usenet From: gdmedia@onr.com (Gary Davis) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Help -- what to use for AM antenna??? Date: 30 Aug 1995 00:19:42 GMT Organization: Onramp Access, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <420aqu$6cn@Sierra.onr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: onramp2-15.onr.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 I have a Yamaha stereo receiver in my office through which I often listen to AM talk radio broadcasts. The little "loop" AM antenna that came with it is amazingly useless. I have run a single insulated wire from one of the two AM antenna inputs out the window and along the roofline. That pulls in some (not all) local stations pretty well, but for the most powerful station, there is little selectivity -- always another faraway station playing behind it. What should I do, within reason, to get better AM reception through this receiver? Thanks! Gary -- ********************************************* Idealism, once armed, becomes totalitarianism. ---- Patrick E. Kennon ********************************************* From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:18 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!world!news From: jjmartin@world.std.com (Jim Martin) Subject: Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? Message-ID: Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Nntp-Posting-Host: world.std.com Reply-To: wk1v@hamradio.com Organization: Ham Radio Outlet-NH X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55 References: <41ebib$eb4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 22:21:29 GMT Lines: 17 In a previous post I sed: :>Tomorrow I will call Ken and let him know about this thread and see what kind :>of support he may have to offer. This is interesting though. And so I did. The R7 "Guru" at Cushcraft is Ray Lajoie, N1SIX. Ray is also the Tech Services Manager. You can ask for him by calling (603) 627-7877. Cheers! -------------------------------------------------------------- |Jim Martin, WK1V | I speak for no one...Not | |Lowell, Massachusetts | even for myself! | |USAF (Ret)ained | #include "std_disclaimer.h" | |ex: KA5MWD/N1CLS/KB1LW/HL9ZF | Intentionally Left Blank | -------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:19 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!news From: jjmartin@world.std.com (Jim Martin) Subject: Re: HELP! R7 Tuning? Message-ID: Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Nntp-Posting-Host: world.std.com Reply-To: wk1v@hamradio.com Organization: Ham Radio Outlet-NH X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55 References: <41ebib$eb4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 00:36:31 GMT Lines: 18 I had seen someone post a while back that he used a tuner to get his R7 to work on 80 meters. For those who do not know....DO NOT USE the R7 on bands it is not designed for. REASONS: 80 meter operations will damage the matching network 6 meter operations will blow the 17 meter trap. I do not represent any manufacturer or dealer here on the net. -------------------------------------------------------------- |Jim Martin, WK1V | I speak for no one...Not | |Lowell, Massachusetts | even for myself! | |USAF (Ret)ained | #include "std_disclaimer.h" | |ex: KA5MWD/N1CLS/KB1LW/HL9ZF | Intentionally Left Blank | -------------------------------------------------------------- From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:19 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!alfa02.medio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.alaska.edu!orion.alaska.edu!auchd From: auchd@orion.alaska.edu Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: help: problems with R7 Date: 30 Aug 95 22:47:31 AST Organization: University of Alaska Lines: 13 Message-ID: <1995Aug30.224731.1@orion.alaska.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.alaska.edu Hi... Had a strange thing happen to me ysterday with my R7. Everything was running smoothly, then pop, loss of signal strength and SWR's through the roof. So, I did the standard .... Check the coax and the connections. Everything looked fine. I even looked inside the matching unit for problem spots. I did not find anything. So, I wondering if I blew a trap in the antenna... Any ideas or help that people can offer would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you have the number to Cushcraft that would be great also. Thanks.... From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:20 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!blackbird.afit.af.mil!tecsun1.tec.army.mil!navair2.nalda.navy.mil!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!cash_mike.chinalake.navy.mil!user From: mike_cash@mlngw.chinalake.navy.mil (Mike, KN6IS) Subject: How to feed HF Quad?? Message-ID: Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin) Organization: nawc Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:22:33 GMT Lines: 22 I am building a multiband (10-20 mtr) quad. I think that I have read all of the books and articles on the subject. The quad will be at 70¹ on a 40¹ boom. Four elements on 20 & 17, five elements on 15-12-10. This is my third quad, my first multiband. The other two quads, 2 el 10 mtr and 4 el 12 mtr, were feed with rg-8 direct. They seem to work well. I have a 300¹ run from the TX to the antenna. I will be using 9913 to a 5 way switch box mounted on the mast. Not sure if I will use a box configuration or a diamond. My requirement is to get the most signal (gain) out of the quad as I can. F/B is less important than gain to me. Questions; Should I use a gamma match, balum, 1/4 wl 75 ohm stub, transformer, run the 9913 direct, or other? Ladder line or twin lead is out of the question. Which of these, using 9913 coax transmission line will do a better job of getting my signal out to the other guy (or gal)? Can anyone Help???? -- Mike, KN6IS From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:21 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: How to feed HF Quad?? Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 05:19:12 GMT Lines: 14 Message-ID: <809759998.27069@pinetree.microserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 mike_cash@mlngw.chinalake.navy.mil (Mike, KN6IS) wrote: >Questions; Should I use a gamma match, balum, 1/4 wl 75 ohm stub, >transformer, run the 9913 direct, or other? Ladder line or twin lead >is out of the question. Which of these, using 9913 coax transmission >line will do a better job of getting my signal out to the other guy >(or gal)? It's sure hard to beat the simplicity of a balun. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:22 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!newsdist.tc.umn.edu!dawn.mmm.com!news From: grhosler1@mmm.com (Gary Hosler - KN0Z) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: How to feed HF Quad?? Date: 31 Aug 1995 12:48:38 GMT Organization: 3M - St. Paul, MN 55144-1000 US Lines: 7 Message-ID: <424b36$dt1@dawn.mmm.com> References: <809759998.27069@pinetree.microserve.com> <809846212.15919@pinetree.microserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b6 (Windows; I; 32bit) Not sure I understand why you would recommend a 1:1 balun. Most of the quads I have built exhibit a feedpoint of about 90 - 120 ohms (depending on vairables such as single band vs multi band, height above ground, etc.). I would recommend measuring the feedpoint and making a balun in the proper ratio (or purchase one from Palomar, Amidon, etc.) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:24 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: J-pole antennas question From: clint.bradford@woodybbs.com (Clint Bradford) Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!wwswinc!clint.bradford Distribution: world Message-ID: <93.2930.7581.0NFBAF78@woodybbs.com> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 09:28:00 -0500 Organization: WoodyWare Software, Inc. - 516-736-6662 Lines: 65 Subject: J-pole antennas question >>briefly explain the theory behind the j-pole antenna, and why it is >>able to get such high gain compared to whips. Someone else will give you the THEORY behind 'em, all I know is that the simple J-Pole described below sure works well for me! === 2m/70cm Dual Band J-Pole made from 300 ohm twin lead === _____ _______ ___ | | | | | | O | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 54-1/4" | | 38-1/2" | | | | | | | | | | | | | | _| | | | N |_ _|__ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 15-3/4" | | | | | |_______| ___ | | | | 1/4" | _|_ | | ___ _|__ ^ ^ | | Coax Inner Coax Outer Conductor Conductor SWR is 2:1 across the 2m band and from 435mhz to 450mhz on the 70cm band. 1. Use good quality TV twin lead. 2. Strip insulation at the solder point for coax feedline. 3. Cut out and remove the 1/2" long notch N. 4. Feed with a length of 50 ohm coax and terminate with the appropriate connector. Tape coax at feedpoint to the twin lead, or use heat shrink, and make sure the joints are insulated from each other. 5. Antenna may be sleeved inside 1/2" PVC for outside mounting or hung on a loop of string run thru hole O. Clint Bradford --- * TLX v4.00 * ATTENTION to Details AMATEUR RADIO BBS - 909/681-6221 þ wcECHO 4.1 ÷ AR-Net: ATTENTION to Details þ Mira Loma, CA þ 909-681-6221 From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:25 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!sun4nl!news.iaf.nl!idn!dnc!rik.van.riel From: Rik.Van.Riel@dnc.idn.nl (Rik Van Riel) Date: 28 Aug 95 21:43:00 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Jamming LW Radio Message-ID: <964_9508290402@idn.nl> Organization: IDN Internet Gateway Lines: 51 PP> From: ppicot@irus.rri.uwo.ca (Paul Picot) PP> Date: 25 Aug 1995 20:46:52 GMT PP> Organization: U.N.C.L.E. PP> In article <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> David Lees PP> <100607.1743@CompuServe.COM> writes: PP> > Anyone any idea how I could Jam a radio Long Wave radio station PP> > (Atlantic 252 to be accurate)............ PP> How about an air drop? I was always quite fond of black currant PP> myself. It should stain the building nicely, but you'll need a PP> 45-gallon drum of it... :-) Why not, at least this is the least expensive method... PP> But seriously: why would you want to interfere with a LW station? It PP> is a navigation aid, isn't it? The penalties for doing such a thing PP> should dissuade you. It's an Irish broadcast station mainly aimed at the UK. In Europe we use 150-183 kHz for broadcast, and 1630-1700 kHz for utility (hardly used, so pirates usually take over :-) It uses a 500kW transmitter located near Wicklow, Ireland. Between 19h00 and 06h00 they transmit with only 100kW, and the longwave-transmitter from (I think) Algeria is just as strong as LW252, well, in Holland that is the case. In the pre-Linux days, when my PeeCee wasn't up 24h / day, I used to listen to 252 in the afternoon and to something else in the evening (usually MW-'dx' or SWL, I _only_ have a cheap worldradio receiver (Grundig YB-206) and an old lamp radio for MW/LW and a bit 49m and FM (quite good, 120km to 200km depending on interference and weather) so broadcast is the only thing remaining, but I once picked up Radio Diffusion du Mali (15kW!) on my cheapo receiver, using a longwire). PP> But to give an answer: the most effective way to interfere with its PP> transmissions would be to drive a large truck into the transmitter Yes, jamming 500kW is quite impossible (except when he's working for Virgin1215, and they 'sponsor' his noble and brave idea). But if you just want to jam your neighbours reception, the most effective way is to either build any kind of transmitter on 255 kHz (irritating), or to use a babyphone 'adjusted' to that frequency (we have a set of those; I don't know if they drifted or harmonics are the cause of the interference). Good luck (you'll need it) and succes, Rik. ... Linux: release the workstation in your PC... for free! -- | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:26 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon.jsc.nasa.gov!ames!news.hawaii.edu!uhunix3!dholmes From: Daniel J Holmes Subject: Re: Jamming LW Radio In-Reply-To: <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: news@news.hawaii.edu Organization: University of Hawaii References: <41kn0p$phu$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 17:44:11 GMT Lines: 10 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13491 rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:9253 Jamming is illegal under US regulations. Find another past-time!:( On 25 Aug 1995, David Lees wrote: > Anyone any idea how I could Jam a radio Long Wave radio station > (Atlantic 252 to be accurate)............ > > Please help if you can! > > From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:27 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ladder Line Loss Date: 28 Aug 1995 16:58:46 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 30 Message-ID: <41ssk6$cmg@maureen.teleport.com> References: <809558868.6009@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx06-46.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > Wes, > . . . > As I stated in the earlier post, Mininec shows an antenna feedpoint > impedance of 1.26-j489 for this antenna. This is the most significant > discrepancy in our results. I went back and played with the program > again after reading your post, and I discovered something I hadn't > noticed before. No matter what numbers I plug in for ground "Relative > Dielectric Constant" and "Conductivity", the feedpoint impedance stays > the same. Only height above ground causes it to change. My > conclusion is that Mininec doesn't use conductivity in calculating > feedpoint impedance, although it might for radiation patterns. This is correct, and is one of the chief advantages NEC-based programs have over MININEC-based ones. Unless the antenna has one or more wires which are nearly horizontal and lower than about 0.2 wavelength, the MININEC approximation doesn't make much difference. But it can make quite a difference in both impedance and gain for low horizontal antennas. Oh - Yes, MININEC does use the ground characteristics for the radiation patterns. 73, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:28 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!tcsi.tcs.com!agate!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!cencore!forrest.gehrke From: forrest.gehrke@cencore.com (FORREST GEHRKE) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ladder Line Loss Message-ID: <8B0220A.02CF000590.uuout@cencore.com> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 08:42:00 -0300 Distribution: world Organization: Central Core BBS, 201-575-8991 Reply-To: forrest.gehrke@cencore.com (FORREST GEHRKE) References: <809558868.6009@pinetree.microserve.com> X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.22 X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.20 Lines: 22 WW> the same. Only height above ground causes it to change. My WW> conclusion is that Mininec doesn't use conductivity in calculating WW> feedpoint impedance, although it might for radiation patterns. Jack, Your conclusion is correct on both counts. NEC does a much better job with ground conditions and is fairly accurate with single element antennas. There is a PC version called NEC-2. At the moment I have forgotten where it may be ftp-ed. Perhaps someone in this forum can provide that info. I believe the source in C is available. Even NEC-2 is not to be trusted for accuracy with all types of arrays. There are variations of NEC which have been modified to accurately model specific types of arrays, but they are not available to the PC to my knowledge. --k2bt * RM 1.3 02583 * * Reward for a job well done: more work. * From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:29 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!news From: sduller@microage-ll.awinc.com (Duller) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Looking for a good beginers book. Date: 30 Aug 1995 01:39:18 GMT Organization: A & W Internet Inc. Lines: 7 Message-ID: <420fg6$nhb@kryten.awinc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pmef19.microage-ll.awinc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.3 I'm new to the radio world and I would like to know what a good beginers book would be to learn the basics of radios. I'm mostly interested in the workings of radios and making your own transmitters/recivers. Any suggestions are welcome. Mark From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:30 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tgold.dialup.access.net From: "Anthony R. Gold" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Looking for DJ2UT type HF beam. Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 23:00:16 GMT Organization: Myorganisation Lines: 33 Message-ID: <809650816snz@tgold.dialup.access.net> References: Reply-To: tgold@panix.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tgold.dialup.access.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 In article komatsu@nimc.go.jp "KOMATSU Toshiki" writes: > Hello, OMs. > > I'm looking for DJ2UT type HF beam. Once I asked postdoctral fellow > from Germany, but he couldn't obtain any information. > I heard ads for US CQ printed about 10 years ago, and I saw report in > Ham Journal (CQ-Japan) 5 years ago. And last year, he brought no > information. > I want to know whether it is sold out, or not. If not, I also want > shops which can accept orders from JA. > > Thanks for any input. The best source of DJ2UT type antennas is DJ2UT. He moved to the USA to solve the $ versus DM problem and sells these in a wide range of prices and sizes from Florida. Walfried Sommer DJ2UT Sommer-Antennas 395 Osceola Road, P.O. Box 710 Geneva, FL 32732, USA Telephone: +1-407-349-9114 Fax: +1-407-349-2485 Regards, -- Tony - G3SKR / AA2PM email: tgold@panix.com tgold@microvst.demon.co.uk packet: g3skr@n0ary.#nocal.ca.usa.na From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:31 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Message-ID: <1995Aug29.125116.3322@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) Organization: Destructive Testing Systems References: <1995Aug21.173324.21731@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> <41b90u$hhg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:51:16 GMT Lines: 23 In article <41b90u$hhg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) writes: >>>>A very low impedance source driving a high impedance load can have an >efficiency near 100%, but that's not the point of absolute maximum power >transfer. Conversely, a high impedance source driving a low impedance >load can have really lousy efficiency, easily less than 1%, but that's >also not the point of absolute maximum power transfer. It's only when >source and load impedances match that absolute maximum power transfer >can occur, but efficiency is then only 50%. > >Gary<<< > >Of course Gary, and like you said a tube is a negative resistance ;-) >Who can argue with that? Certainly not anyone who knows what the term means. Gary -- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | | From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:32 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu!alex From: alex@anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu (Alex Shrom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Maxwell's REFLECTIONS Date: 30 Aug 1995 16:22:48 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 27 Message-ID: <42238o$3m9@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <41fvmm$nur@maureen.teleport.com> <421jgm$kkg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu Thevenin's and Norton's theorems (which are essentially the same, though the former uses a voltage source and the other a current source), help you predict the loading effects of a following stage (voltage droop). It's rather interesting; check the ARRL handbook, chapter 5. Anyway, for minimum voltage droop, you want to connect low impedance outputs to high impedance inputs, and this is independent of the model you use. Doing this prevents loss of the voltage gain produced by preceeding stages and is one type of efficiency (the type Gary was talking about). However, that doesn't have anything to do with power transfer. To maximize that, you actually want to match the impedances of the two stages (as in AF and RF amplifiers). That's also an issue of efficiency, but a different quantity is involved. Don't burn your books yet! Get _The Art of Electronics_ by Horowitz and Hill. Not much on RF, but it's more readable than the ARRL handbook. -- Alex Shrom - ajshrom@phoenix.princeton.edu - Major: History of Cat Art Princeton '98 http://www.princeton.edu/~ajshrom Minor: Yes, unfortunately From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:33 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!voder!nsc!news From: "Al Koblinski (W7XA)" Subject: Re: Need HB9CV and ZL-Special Design parameters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: ab5p@swcp.com Sender: news@nsc.nsc.com (netnews maintenance) Nntp-Posting-Host: akoblinski.nsc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara References: <41r0kd$rho@sloth.swcp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:38:58 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:41r0kd$rho@sloth.swcp.com Lines: 7 You can find designs for Adcock arrays in some old antenna handbooks. The ZL special is kinda big for 2 mtrs and the HB9CV works well but not as well as the adcock. Adcock arrays are use for aircraft direction finding. Regards, Al From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:34 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Need help. Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 23:32:55 GMT Lines: 28 Message-ID: <809652815.5512@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <41t3s0$qon@news.tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Chris Farmer wrote: >We live in a small dorm room on the bottom floor in a town with no >really good radio stations. I don't know if this is a good place to >ask, but I need some information on building a good FM antenna. Yep, I seem to remember, everytime I drove through College Station, that's when I broke out the tapes. Chris, the general idea is to A) use an antenna with as much gain as possible, and B) position it as high in the air as you can. Both of these goals will present limitations that are more mechanical in nature than electrical. Why not take a RS directional FM antenna (yagi) up to the roof and see how it does? Any stations that are so far down in the noise as to be difficult to hear probably won't see significant improvement without resorting to extraordinary means. However, stations that are just below the point of satisfactory reception can probably be brought up with a larger antenna. If that doesn't get you started in the right direction, you'll just have to build a digital audio microwave link to Austin. Take care, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:36 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!freenet.columbus.oh.us!not-for-mail From: willhar@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Willian Harmon) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Request for Help on RF Ground Date: 28 Aug 1995 14:10:51 -0400 Organization: The Greater Columbus FreeNet Lines: 17 Message-ID: <41t0rb$cie@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I use a long wire antenna. 1. How do I know if I have an adequate RF ground? 2. MFJ sells a device to provide a RF Ground for random wire antennas. Does this device solve the need for adequate RF grounding or does it simply mask the problem? What I am asking is - Should I buy the MFJ RF ground device? Please e-mail reply to willhar@freenet.columbus.oh.us Thanks for help Bill Harmon WB8BVM -- Bill Harmon willhar@freenet,columbus,oh.us> From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:37 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Request for Help on RF Ground Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 23:46:20 GMT Lines: 37 Message-ID: <809653642.5512@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <41t0rb$cie@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 willhar@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Willian Harmon) wrote: >I use a long wire antenna. >1. How do I know if I have an adequate RF ground? >2. MFJ sells a device to provide a RF Ground for random wire >antennas. Does this device solve the need for adequate RF grounding >or does it simply mask the problem? What I am asking is - Should I >buy the MFJ RF ground device? There have been a lot of threads here on this subject lately, so I'll keep this short. First, feeding a longwire almost guarantees that you'll experience RF on the chassis of the rig whenever the ground is inadequate. This in turn leads to "mic bite" and perhaps irratic operation of equipment, especially digital circuitry. In addition, this condition can create significant RFI if the shack ground radiates a fair amount of RF. The need for the MFJ "artificial ground" will probably depend on the degree to which you experience the above symptoms. Devices like this operate on the principle of tuning a second wire to balance the antenna. This places the chassis of the rig at the exact center of the two, or zero RF volts. Unfortunately, the second wire radiates when this is done, so if it's inside the building you reside in, this technique won't do much for RFI problems. I know random longwires are mechanically convenient, but they're a real pain in the butt from every other standpoint. Before you install one, do your absolute best to figure out a way to install a dipole (or other balanced antenna) instead. 73, Jack WB3U --- Copy forwarded via e-mail --- From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:37 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!voder!nsc!news From: "Al Koblinski (W7XA)" Subject: Re: Request for Help on RF Ground Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: willhar@freenet.columbus.oh.us Sender: news@nsc.nsc.com (netnews maintenance) Nntp-Posting-Host: akoblinski.nsc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara References: <41t0rb$cie@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:47:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:41t0rb$cie@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us Lines: 6 The MFJ probably will not help your signal but is good for keeping RF out of the shack. Don't think you will need it unless you get RF bites/burns off your equipment. 73, Al From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:38 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpcvsnz!depaul From: depaul@spk.hp.com (Marc DePaul) Subject: Re: Request for Help on RF Ground Sender: news@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com (News ) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:13:43 GMT References: <420haj$o1l@gold.niia.net> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpspksa.spk.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6] Lines: 4 MFJ has a money back guarantee anyway...get the Artifical Ground; if it doesn't work send it back! Marc From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:39 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!news-rocq.inria.fr!athena.inria.fr!skubi From: skubi@athena.inria.fr (Skubiszewski Marcin) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Request: books about Yagi antennas Date: 30 Aug 1995 17:48:37 GMT Organization: INRIA * Rocquencourt BP 105 * F-78153 LE CHESNAY CEDEX* France Lines: 14 Distribution: world Message-ID: <42289l$195@news-rocq.inria.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.inria.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Can you recommend an excellent book about Yagi antennas ? My objective is to understand in depth what happens (with all the physics and maths necessary). For example, why are directors shorter than the active dipole, and why are reflectors longer ? Why do thick directors make wide-band antennas ? How do I compute the radiation pattern of a given antenna ? I already have the ARRL Antenna book, bot it does not go very much in depth. Thanks in advance for any help. Marcin (not a ham yet, but maybe one day...) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:41 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!nwfocus.wa.com!krel.iea.com!comtch!n0dh From: n0dh@comtch.iea.com (D.C. Henderson) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Rohn HBX Info Wanted Date: 29 Aug 1995 18:00:46 GMT Organization: CompuTech Lines: 55 Distribution: world Message-ID: <41vkke$8dl@krel.iea.com> References: <41o0v0$64p@redstone.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: comtch.iea.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Curt Phillips (KD4YU@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net) wrote: : I'm looking at a Rohn HBX tower (approx. 64 ft) to purchase to put : a Hygain TH7 on. : a) Does anyone have the data on the max antenna area that this : tower is rated for? Though it is supposed to be a free standing tower, : how much might guying it add to the acceptable windload area? The 64' tower is only good for about 6Sq feet, and boom lengths less than 10', this definitely rules out something as big as a TH7. The problem is two fold. with the HBX series. The self supporting nature reduces the square footage compared to guyed Rohn 25. and the construction is more suspectable to torque damage which is why they limit it to 10 foot booms. I have often thought that the torque problem could be solved by running a mast all the way down and putting the rotator at the base. In my mind this would remove the torque vector from the tower entirely. I put this query out a while back but no one responded. I'm not entirely sure what addtional (if any) compression loading the fulllength mast would provide. If this would solve the torque problem then you could probably put up a TH7 on the 56' version (i.e.) leave off last top section. and it would sure make servicing the rotor a breeze. You would need a couple of thrust bearings at intermediate heights as well I think. I just put up a used HBX56 last weekend. I was not comfortable with the amount of movement you get by the time you get to the top section, would much rather be working on a guyed tower anyday :-). Also the "X" cross braces are damned uncomfortable to climb and stand on compared to the standard guyed style towers. : b) What should a 64' Rohn HBX sell for used? It's "on the ground" : and in good, but not great shape (some rust spots that need to be : painted, a couple of bent spots that will need to be straightened : and reinforced). If the bent spots are in the cross braces then I would say the thing is worth $250 to $300 bucks (A little more on a newer one withouit rust). Expect to pay $50 to $200 more if you have to buy a base mounting kit ( there are 3 differnt styles). If the legs themlselves are bent then save your money, Its not a deal at anyprice. By the way it cost me $300 bucks in concrete just to pour the nearly 5 yards of cement that it takes to hold one of theses babies down. The hole for a 64' is about 6' x 6' x 4' deep as I recall! E-mail me direct if you want to talk more. By the way the standard gin pole that your local radio club loans around wont work on an HBX series tower either, But I built an adapter in order to use the round leg gin pole on the non round leg HBX tower..just one more hassle. Been there done that :-) Dave N0DH/7 n0dh@comtch.iea.com From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:42 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!voder!nsc!news From: "Al Koblinski (W7XA)" Subject: Re: Separate Receive Antenna Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: rlc@soho.ios.COM Sender: news@nsc.nsc.com (netnews maintenance) Nntp-Posting-Host: akoblinski.nsc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara References: <199508281718.NAA09805@soho.ios.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:44:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:199508281718.NAA09805@soho.ios.com Lines: 9 I suppose you could use a PIN diode T/R switch between the linear and the exciter. It's fast and should work fine. Be careful to find one with adequate carrier lifetimes. (Hewlett Packard has some for about 3 bucks that ought to handle 100 watts or so.I think Penstock or Hamilton Hallmark carry them. If you need the p/n, let me know and I'll dig it out. 73, Al From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:43 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!voder!nsc!news From: "Al Koblinski (W7XA)" Subject: Re: Separate Receive Antenna Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: To: rlc@soho.ios.COM Sender: news@nsc.nsc.com (netnews maintenance) Nntp-Posting-Host: akoblinski.nsc.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara References: <199508281718.NAA09805@soho.ios.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:44:50 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Url: news:199508281718.NAA09805@soho.ios.com Lines: 9 I suppose you could use a PIN diode T/R switch between the linear and the exciter. It's fast and should work fine. Be careful to find one with adequate carrier lifetimes. (Hewlett Packard has some for about 3 bucks that ought to handle 100 watts or so.I think Penstock or Hamilton Hallmark carry them. If you need the p/n, let me know and I'll dig it out. 73, Al From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:44 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.Traveller.COM!adtran.com!usenet From: tgoodloe@adtran.com (Tony Goodloe) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.shortwave Subject: Re: Tinted Window Question Date: 28 Aug 1995 17:34:05 GMT Organization: Adtran Lines: 16 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <41sumd$67g@adtrn-ws02.adtran.com> References: <41l9ml$ck@dropit.pgh.net> <41m1ei$sjq@cnn.exu.ericsson.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: adtrn-ep127.adtran.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13417 rec.radio.shortwave:57714 In article <41m1ei$sjq@cnn.exu.ericsson.se>, eus.eusmge@memo.ericsson.se (Mike Groves) says: >Thru-glass on 10M? You'ld have to have a patch area the size of a >door-mat. 2M is marginal at best. I like trunk-lid mounts, but in >the case of a Jimmy... Good luck ---Mike > I am in the market for a mobile antenna for 2M. Is the opinion about the effectiveness of thru-glass mounting concensus? (no offense intended for Mike's opinion). What about different lengths - 1/4 wave, 5/8, etc? I'm new, so any opinions are greatly appreciated. email appreciated to conserve bandwidth, unless comments are of general interest. Thanks! tony From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:45 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!usenet From: Allen Hansen Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.shortwave Subject: Re: Tinted Window Question Date: 30 Aug 1995 15:52:04 GMT Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA Lines: 32 Message-ID: <4221f4$96g@news4.digex.net> References: <41l9ml$ck@dropit.pgh.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dcc05226.slip.digex.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13504 rec.radio.shortwave:57835 glidden@greene.pgh.net (Jack Glidden) wrote: >I have been told told that the tinting that comes from the factory on >newer model veh. is actually a metal that is inside the glass. This >has the effect of really screwing up any type of thru the glass >antenna. Is this true? Where or who should I call to confirm this? >I have a 92 Jimmy with factory tint on all glass except the front. I >need to mount some antennas and don't want to drill or use mag mounts. >I am planning to mount a 2 meter and a 10 meter antenna. >If you hav any answers please send e-mail. > >Thanks I have been told by customers who have researched this for me that GM does use metalized tinting on side windows (usually rear). Our store manager wanted to put an on glass antenna on his new mini van but the dealer told him that the tint on his vehicle is metalized. I would suggest contacting your car dealer and see what he says about your specific vehicle. Allen -- ********************************************************************* *ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT BANK Sales- 800 368 3270* *323 Mill St. N.E. Fax- 703 938 6911* *Vienna, VA 22180 BBS- 703 938 3781* * Internet: eeb@access.digex.net * * Compuserve: 73424,1345 * ********************************************************************* From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:46 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!news.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!mac78.franklin From: nmoyer@uhl.uiowa.edu (Nelson P. Moyer) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Tower Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:50:24 -0600 Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 6 Distribution: world Message-ID: <9508301650.AA24305@mac78.franklin> Reply-To: nmoyer@uhl.uiowa.edu (Nelson P. Moyer) NNTP-Posting-Host: mac78.uhl.uiowa.edu X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.2.1 I'm considering a Universal aluminum tower, model 21-70. I would like to hear any praises or problems before I buy. Anyone out there have one of these? From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:47 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpcvsnz!depaul From: depaul@spk.hp.com (Marc DePaul) Subject: Re: Uni-Hat CTSVR Short Vertical Sender: news@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com (News ) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:16:54 GMT References: <41o1gj$l1b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpspksa.spk.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6] Lines: 4 And it's VERY expensive! Marc From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:48 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!interlog.com!news From: Kevin Cazabon Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Using Cable TV amps and splitters for scanning? Date: 29 Aug 1995 00:11:17 GMT Organization: InterLog Internet Services Lines: 14 Message-ID: <41tlv5$de9@steel.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kcazabon.interlog.com I wonder if anyone can help me out... I've been researching the best way to get an amplified signal (at a reasonable cost) so I can split one antenna for both a RS Pro-43 and Bearcat 760XLT. I've been told by a couple people that a cable TV amp works well, and the cable splitters are just as good as the antenna splitters that cost MUCH more... Does anyone have any suggestions? Does anyone know of a cable TV amplifier that will run on 12 Volts? Thanx!! From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:48 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.tcd.net!pagesat.net!niia.net!usenet From: rikoski Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Using Cable TV amps and splitters for scanning? Date: 30 Aug 1995 02:07:54 GMT Organization: Northern Indiana Internet Access, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <420h5q$o1l@gold.niia.net> References: <41tlv5$de9@steel.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-13.niia.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Macintosh; U; 68K) To: kcazabon@interlog.com X-URL: news:41tlv5$de9@steel.interlog.com There are a few "it all depends" here. The first is, "how insensitive are the front ends of the scanner and the other device that you will be using?" The second is "What frequency?" For frequencies below 70 cm (400mHz), you probably don't have to use an amp at all. Doubt the you would see any positive difference if you did. If you insist on using one, try a broadband Radio Shack mast mounted type. It comes with a power supply, runs on 12v and costs about $20. But if you are in a high signal area, it will overload and you will get intermodulation distortion and will be worse off than before. Advanced Receiver Research of Connecticut has good tuned amps with low noise figures at reasonable prices. They advertise in the back of QST. Talk to them. Good Luck. Rick Rikoski N9YIC rikoski@niia.net From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:49 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!athos.itribe.net!global.gc.net!racebbs.com!jim.wooddell From: jim.wooddell@racebbs.com (Jim Wooddell) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Using Cable TV amps and splitters for scanning? Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:40:55 GMT Message-ID: <1965227973-950829034055@racebbs.com> Organization: racebbs Parker, Az. Distribution: world Lines: 37 -> NNTP-Posting-Host: kcazabon.interlog.com -> -> I wonder if anyone can help me out... -> -> I've been researching the best way to get an amplified signal (at a -> reasonable -> cost) so I can split one antenna for both a RS Pro-43 and Bearcat 760 -> -> I've been told by a couple people that a cable TV amp works well, and -> cable splitters are just as good as the antenna splitters that cost M -> more... -> -> Does anyone have any suggestions? -> -> Does anyone know of a cable TV amplifier that will run on 12 Volts? -> -> Thanx!! -> Your friends are probably right...in general terms. Remember, you get what you pay for! TV type splitters, the kind you can buy at a TV store, are cheap junk for the most part and vary in losses from unit to unit. Mast mount TV amplifiers would work ok, but you are not going to save much money comparing good quality ones over a radio type preamp, but they will work. Just watch the bandwidth when you buy. Why not just try the splitter first, without the preamp? Typical loss will be about 5 db with these cheapy splitters and your scanners may never notice it. Then, if you need a preamp, get one. The preamps you can buy for your TV, that are designed to be "boosters" in a cable system, are not designed to amplify weak signals or "off the air" signals. Using these types of amps may actually increase the noise and not help much. For receiving, the best place to amplify the signal is at the antenna. Just think of it as designing a mini-cable system. Start with a quality signal, and you can take it just about anywhere you want it to go! Jim Wooddell jim.w@racebbs.com RACEBBS 1-520-669-9225 Low Cost Internet Access QWK Internet Provider From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:51 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What antenna would you use??? Date: 29 Aug 1995 08:12:18 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 32 Message-ID: <41ui52$987@maureen.teleport.com> References: <41srar$8hb@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx04-06.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > cmoore@sedona.intel.com writes: > In article <809589181.11475@pinetree.microserve.com>, > WB3U wrote: > > >IMO, the only way to feed a non-resonant dipole with *any* balun is to > >run a program that calculates the feedpoint impedance at the tuner for > >each band of operation. Then, that impedance can be compared to the > >capabilities of the balun. > > Hi Jack, how does one know the capabilities of the balun? I know my > impedances - highest is 1800+j2100 and lowest is 26-j120. > > thanks and 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) > >>>> If you're using a ferrite-bead (W2DU) balun, you need to know the Z per bead. This info can be had from the ferrite manufacturer (or from some distributors) or can be measured with a Z meter. Most W2DU baluns are designed for a Z of around 500-1000 ohms. It takes a lot of ferrite beads to get much more than this. You can get several k ohms from an air-core coiled-coax balun, but only on a single band. It might be difficult to get this sort of value repeatably and reliably. Again, around 1 k ohm is a reasonable maximum value to expect. So a balun wouldn't be effective at the output of your tuner on the bands where you have the high impedance you report. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!pinetree From: jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What antenna would you use??? Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 05:05:14 GMT Lines: 51 Message-ID: <809759161.27069@pinetree.microserve.com> References: <41srar$8hb@chnews.ch.intel.com> <41ui52$987@maureen.teleport.com> <41vqh7$q26@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pinetree.microserve.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 cmoore@sedona.intel.com wrote: >So my question is, what does the HBHT200 do to my 1793+j2085 >impedance at 100w? (that is the impedance predicted by ELNEC and >MicroSmith). > >If I had a 300 ohm balanced SWR meter, I could make some >measurements. Can anyone point me toward a build, buy, borrow, or >rent 300 ohm balanced forward/reverse power meter? What I want to do >is measure the efficiency of the HBHT200 under extreme conditions. Cecil, I think you're on the right track because I don't believe that balun heating is the only symptom, or that it will always occur. Not to be too simplistic here, but imagine if you removed the core, so that all that remained was an air-core coil with insufficient reactance. Its input/output coupling would be poor, and it probably wouldn't maintain balance very well (if at all). However, it may not heat up significantly, depending on the resistance of the windings, transmitter power and winding reactance. Incidentally, I believe that too low an input/output impedance will also cause efficiency problems, but that's another issue. At any rate, the major symptoms (other than heating) are loss of impedance transformation, loss of coupling, and loss of balance. Wish I could tell you how to measure any of this with readily available gear, but I can't. What I do know is that the winding impedance (input *and* output) should be 4 to 5 times the impedance of the circuit it's looking into. Anything less is insufficient, whether the symptoms are measurable or not. Looking through Radio Works' catalog, their voltage and current baluns have winding Z specifications ranging from about 1K to 4K at 3.5 MHz. None of these values would be sufficient for your antenna's *resistive* loading, let alone the reactive component. Again, it's not necessarily the core that's to blame, at least not because of saturation. In fact, Amidon claims that most core losses occur well before saturation takes place, but that's another issue too. It's just darn difficult to design a balun that will provide a sufficiently high Z to handle high impedance loads, won't decouple when fed to low impedance loads, and won't rolloff its response from 160-10M. That last one is the real killer, IMO. 73, Jack WB3U From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What antenna would you use??? Date: 29 Aug 1995 19:41:27 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <41vqh7$q26@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <41srar$8hb@chnews.ch.intel.com> <41ui52$987@maureen.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <41ui52$987@maureen.teleport.com>, Roy Lewallen wrote: >So a balun wouldn't be effective at the output of your >tuner on the bands where you have the high impedance you report. Hi Roy, this is an area not covered well in the ARRL Handbook and Antenna Book. I was having trouble with the MFJ outboard current balun when I read the Nov '93 CQ article by Jerry Sevick. Based on that article, I bought the Amidon HBHT200 10kw voltage balun and it *seems* to work well with no detectable temperature increase on any of the bands. So my question is, what does the HBHT200 do to my 1793+j2085 impedance at 100w? (that is the impedance predicted by ELNEC and MicroSmith). If I had a 300 ohm balanced SWR meter, I could make some measurements. Can anyone point me toward a build, buy, borrow, or rent 300 ohm balanced forward/reverse power meter? What I want to do is measure the efficiency of the HBHT200 under extreme conditions. 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!gatech!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!sparc01bilt.unity.ncsu.edu!jwprice From: jwprice@unity.ncsu.edu (James Warren Price) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What antenna would you use??? Date: 30 Aug 1995 00:08:58 GMT Organization: North Carolina State University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <420a6q$17i@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> References: <0099583B.9A07F202@netins.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sparc01bilt.unity.ncsu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] crcarlson@netins.net wrote: : a tower. I have a substantial number of trees that are probably about 40-50 feet up : and somewhere near 100 feet or more apart. If you, fellow hams, were going to put up I just moved from a house where I had a 20m groundplane antenna with four radials. Although the tree was higher, it fed at about 54' (making the top at 70'), and I was able to work Australia, Kuwait and Svalbard Island with 75w SSB. Make it 10x as big as a 2m groundplane, and have a rope support it at the feed point, with the top of the vertical element attached to keep it upright. 73 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Price, ARS N3QYE Don't blame me. jwprice@unity.ncsu.edu I voted for Emma Goldman. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.ssd.intel.com!chnews!vegas.ch.intel.com!cmoore From: cmoore@sedona.intel.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What antenna would you use??? Date: 31 Aug 1995 18:55:30 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation, Chandler, AZ Lines: 38 Distribution: world Message-ID: <4250j2$7s0@chnews.ch.intel.com> References: <41srar$8hb@chnews.ch.intel.com> <41ui52$987@maureen.teleport.com> <41vqh7$q26@chnews.ch.intel.com> <809759161.27069@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vegas.ch.intel.com Originator: cmoore@vegas.ch.intel.com In article <809759161.27069@pinetree.microserve.com>, WB3U wrote: >Cecil, I think you're on the right track because I don't believe that >balun heating is the only symptom, or that it will always occur. Hi Jack, it's obvious if the balun heats up, it's turning RF energy into heat. It's not so obvious what's happening if the balun doesn't heat up. Where is the power being lost? >Not to be too simplistic here, but imagine if you removed the core, so >that all that remained was an air-core coil with insufficient >reactance. And this would cause other portions of the system, e.g. tuner, to heat up? If the air-core coil is not heating up, then it must be reflecting energy rather than passing it? >It's just darn difficult to design a balun that will provide a >sufficiently high Z to handle high impedance loads, won't decouple >when fed to low impedance loads, and won't rolloff its response >from 160-10M. That last one is the real killer, IMO. See what you think of the following setup: Xmtr into an SWR/Power meter into a piece of 50 ohm coax with ferrite beads into 4:1 Amidon HBHT200 balun into a piece of 450 ohm ladder-line into a piece of 50 ohm coax with ferrite beads into an SWR/Power meter into a 50 ohm dummy load. There would be a 1:1 SWR on the coax on the load end with no RF on the shield. There would be a 9:1 SWR on the ladder-line. With a 0.234 wavelength piece of 450 ladder-line, the impedance seen by the 4:1 balun would be about 2250+j2250. I could measure the power into the balun and the power delivered to the load and get an idea of the balun efficiency. With a 0.266 wavelength piece of ladder-line, the balun would see 2250-j2250. I have the equipment to do this experiment. What do you think? 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:56 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!psgrain!quack!pagesat.net!niia.net!usenet From: rikoski Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: 30 Aug 1995 18:54:20 GMT Organization: Northern Indiana Internet Access, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <422c4t$l10@gold.niia.net> References: <93.2897.7581.0NFBAF5B@woodybbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-15.niia.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Macintosh; U; 68K) To: art.harris@woodybbs.com X-URL: news:93.2897.7581.0NFBAF5B@woodybbs.com I don't think that your interpretation of the initials BNC is correct. The BNC connector was invented by my old colleague Octavio Salati, an electrical engineering professor of the Moore School of Electrical Engineering of the University of Pennsylvania. So how could those guys that you mentioned have their initials memorialized as you have suggested? Rick Rikoski N9YIC rikoski@niia.net From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!ifwtech.demon.co.uk From: Ian G3SEK Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What BNC means ? Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 07:37:15 GMT Organization: IFWtech Lines: 19 Message-ID: <154601831wnr@ifwtech.demon.co.uk> References: <93.2897.7581.0NFBAF5B@woodybbs.com> <422c4t$l10@gold.niia.net> Reply-To: G3SEK@ifwtech.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ifwtech.demon.co.uk X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 31, 1995 07.37.15 X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7 In article: <422c4t$l10@gold.niia.net> rikoski writes: : : I don't think that your interpretation of the initials BNC is correct. : : The BNC connector was invented by my old colleague Octavio Salati, an : electrical engineering professor of the Moore School of Electrical : Engineering of the University of Pennsylvania. So how could those guys : that you mentioned have their initials memorialized as you have : suggested? Can we see some dates, details and evidence, please? -- 73 from Ian G3SEK Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book' 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) Professionally: IFW Technical Services Clear technical English - anywhere. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!alumina.rutgers.edu!not-for-mail From: livneh@alumina.rutgers.edu (Punisher) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: What is best antenna for BC2500XLT? Date: 28 Aug 1995 21:31:25 -0400 Organization: Rutgers University Lines: 8 Message-ID: <41tqld$kkh@alumina.rutgers.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alumina.rutgers.edu I just got the portable scanner with the original rubber antenna. Reception is a little noisy. Any suggestions for the best antenna for home/mobile use for the whole spectrum (25-1300 MHz)? Rubber duck? What length? Collapsible? Thanks for any and all. Shai (livneh@alumina.rutgers.edu) From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What series cap for inverted L? Date: 30 Aug 1995 19:00:16 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 30 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <422qi0$2b7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4225r8$bt8@comet.connix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <4225r8$bt8@comet.connix.com>, pete brunelli writes: > >What would be a good choice for the series capacitor in an inverted L? >A transmitting type a-la a transmatch? Any help in designing an inverted >L would be greatly appreciated. > >Pete Brunelli >N1QDQ Pete, The size of the capacitor varies with the length to thickness ratio and the length of the antenna. Even the location of the antenna affects the answer. It is a tough question. I've used several different inverted "L's" for 160. With thick (cage type wires) the capacitor had to be over 3000 pF, and with thin longer (3/8 wl) wires the capacitor only needed to be a few hundred pF. I would like to add a personal observation. Do not place the current peak at the top of the L, like some articles suggest. I've found best performance occurs when the antenna is a quarter wave long, and lots of other people I've talked to have found the same thing. Use a good radial system if you can. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:50:59 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!connix.com!news From: pete brunelli Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: What series cap for inverted L? Date: 30 Aug 1995 17:06:48 GMT Organization: Connix - The Connecticut Internet Exchange Lines: 9 Message-ID: <4225r8$bt8@comet.connix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcb.connix.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) What would be a good choice for the series capacitor in an inverted L? A transmitting type a-la a transmatch? Any help in designing an inverted L would be greatly appreciated. Pete Brunelli N1QDQ From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:51:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!EU.net!news.eunet.fi!jjo From: jjo@tekla.fi (Jari Jokiniemi) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Which is the best antenna book? Date: 29 Aug 1995 14:52:14 GMT Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ds10.tekla.fi In-reply-to: morganp@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca's message of 25 Aug 1995 00:42:49 GMT I would suggest that Kurt Rothammel's Antennenbuch is best value for the money. It is written in German. -Jari -- Jari Jokiniemi, jari.jokiniemi@tekla.fi, OH2MPO, OH3BU Tekla Oy, Koronakatu 1, 02210 Espoo, 90-8879 474 From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:51:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!satisfied.apocalypse.org!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: armond@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Which is the best antenna book? Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 02:08:59 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca> <41tfjp$i1q@news1.inlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1b.delphi.com X-To: Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr. Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr. writes: >I can't help you with which one's the best, but I can steer you away from >the worst. The ARRL Antenna Book! Hmmmmmmm. Would appreciate examples of what brings one to such a conclusion. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:51:02 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!wa2ise From: wa2ise@netcom.com (Robert Casey) Subject: Windows J Pole antenna program posted in binaries groups Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 15:46:02 GMT Lines: 6 Sender: wa2ise@netcom17.netcom.com I posted, in groups alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc and alt.binaries.pictures. utilities a windows program for calculating the dimensions of twinlead based J pole antennas, also using ladderline instead of twinlead if desired. It's way too big a file to post here. From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:51:03 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!ledge!darryl.linkow From: darryl.linkow@ledge.com (DARRYL LINKOW) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: WTB: Saturn 6 antenna Message-ID: <8B022B3.01B20020CF.uuout@ledge.com> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 11:31:00 -0800 Distribution: world Organization: The Ledge PCBoard: Lake View Terrace, CA: USA: 818-896-2007 Reply-To: darryl.linkow@ledge.com (DARRYL LINKOW) X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.21 X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.10 Lines: 16 Hello all and thanks for reading this. I am looking to buy a "Saturn 6" halo antenna made by Hi-Par. I have seen several for sale here, but others beat me to them. I know that there are new halo antennas being made by people, but I am kind of a nostalgia buff and would like to get one of the Saturn's. If you have one that you are not using and would like to sell, please send me private Email. 73, Darryl KE6IHA Internet Email: darryl.linkow@ledge.com OR darryl.linkow@grinder.com --- * OLX 2.2 * Darryl Linkow (818)346-5278 9 am - 5 pm PDT From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:51:04 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!blackbird.afit.af.mil!news.usafa.af.mil!usenet From: Aaron Hartzler Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Yagi mobile mounting Date: 29 Aug 1995 16:53:43 GMT Organization: DFAS Lines: 16 Message-ID: <41vgmn$hjf@usafa2.usafa.af.mil> References: <1826680364-950828174419@racebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dfas62.usafa.af.mil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b1 (Windows; I; 16bit) Oops, I've created confusion! The balloon end of the system will have a GPS receiver, TNC, and transmitter with an output of about 5w. At the ground station, mounted in a van, a laptop will record the data (position, velocity, altitude). From there, the data will be sent to another GPS receiver in the van as a waypoint, from which a direction and distance to the balloon can be calculated based on the current position of the van. Right now, we are tasked to mount a Yagi on the van with a bicycle rack configuration. It won't be too difficult, but does anyone know of potential problems? Thanks, Aaron From amsoft@epix.net Thu Aug 31 16:51:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news.eng.convex.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!bubba.ucc.okstate.edu!gcouger From: gcouger@jsun.agen.okstate.edu (Gordon Couger) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Yagi mobile mounting Date: 29 Aug 1995 23:12:29 GMT Organization: Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4206st$1jee@bubba.ucc.okstate.edu> References: <1826680364-950828174419@racebbs.com> <41vgmn$hjf@usafa2.usafa.af.mil> Reply-To: Gordon Couger = NNTP-Posting-Host: jsun.agen.okstate.edu In article <41vgmn$hjf@usafa2.usafa.af.mil>, Aaron Hartzler wrote: >Oops, I've created confusion! > >The balloon end of the system will have a GPS receiver, TNC, and >transmitter with an output of about 5w. At the ground station, mounted >in a van, a laptop will record the data (position, velocity, altitude). >From there, the data will be sent to another GPS receiver in the van as a >waypoint, from which a direction and distance to the balloon can be >calculated based on the current position of the van. > >Right now, we are tasked to mount a Yagi on the van with a bicycle rack >configuration. It won't be too difficult, but does anyone know of >potential problems? > You probably need a good omini directional antenna with a high angle of radiation. Something like crossed folded dipoles mounted high enough off the cab so the impeadance matches 50 ohms. Or maybe crossed dipoles high enough off the cab that the cab acts as a reflector. I would probably carry a 5 element or so beam in case I got too far away from the balloon and lost it or the gps packet failed. Since the balloon has a GPS and the van have a GPS you know where the ballon and the van are. If you plot three positions of the balloon about ten minutes apart you will have a real good estimate of speed and direction and should have a very easy chase. Good luck Gordon AB5DG Gordon Couger - 624 Cheyenne, Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@master.ceat.okstate.edu 405-624-2855 evenings I do not speak for my employer From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:15:52 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!wupost!news1.inlink.com!usenet From: raiar@inlink.com (Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Which is the best antenna book? Date: 28 Aug 1995 22:22:49 GMT Organization: Inlink Lines: 22 Message-ID: <41tfjp$i1q@news1.inlink.com> References: <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip02.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 In article <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca>, morganp@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca says... > >I am looking for a book with info on making antenna's (VHF antenna's that >is) & need to know where to find a book and what to look for, any suggestions > >on books? > >-- >73 & ttyl Morgan Patterson > \\/// Internet: morganp@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca > (o o) Ham Radio: VE6MRP > (_) "Your Computer will self destruct in..5..4..3..2..1..KABOOM!!!" >----oOO-----OOo------------------------------------------------------------ -- >- I can't help you with which one's the best, but I can steer you away from the worst. The ARRL Antenna Book! Gary From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:15:53 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mid.net!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!wupost!news1.inlink.com!usenet From: raiar@inlink.com (Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Which is the best antenna book? Date: 29 Aug 1995 21:48:50 GMT Organization: Inlink Lines: 14 Message-ID: <420202$38k@news1.inlink.com> References: <41j6a9$jm@news.sas.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip11.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 In article , jjo@tekla.fi says... > > >I would suggest that Kurt Rothammel's Antennenbuch is best value for >the money. It is written in German. > > -Jari >-- >Jari Jokiniemi, jari.jokiniemi@tekla.fi, OH2MPO, OH3BU >Tekla Oy, Koronakatu 1, 02210 Espoo, 90-8879 474 Hmmmmmm, mine furher, is dat a problem? Gary Deutschmann From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:15:54 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uucp3.netcom.com!tksbbs!stephen.king From: stephen.king@kandy.com (STEPHEN KING) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Copper Tube "J-Pole" Message-ID: <8B0238E.09EF001816.uuout@kandy.com> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 15:10:00 -0800 Distribution: world Organization: The Kandy Shack BBS/Garden Grove, CA/+1-714-636-2667 Reply-To: stephen.king@kandy.com (STEPHEN KING) References: <41q5b8$m3j@superb.csc.ti.com> X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.22 X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.20 Lines: 35 >>I have a copper tube "J-Pole" dual band antenna for 2 meter/70cm. >> >>I would like to know what the maximum power and what the gain is for >>this type of antenna. >> ON>Not meaning to change the subject here, but I have a question regarding your >2m/70cm j-pole design. ON>Does this antenna require two feedlines (i.e. 1 for 2m and another for 70cm) >If not, would you mind posting the plans? I have several plans I've >accumulated over time but none of them address combining the two feedlines >into one. Guess I could use a duplexer to accomplish this -- but only if it >necessary. I have one feedline going to the J-Pole. I bought the J-Pole at a local HAM swap and with it being up on ht roof at the moment, it wouldn't be easy for me to even take measurements of it for you. I use an ICOM IC24-AT dual band HT with it. I do recall that using the MFJ-259 HF/VHF SWR Analyzer that I borrowed from a friend, that the SWR at both the antenna feed point and at the HT cable feedline point were very flat across the 2 meter band, just barely above 1:1. I don't have a SWR meter for the 70cm band, so I can't say just what the reading for that is. I have had very good results with the J-Pole on 2 meter and have had very good results on the 70cm as well. This is based on by own observations of being able to clearly hit various repeaters in the area. Some good news is that I am moving soon and will be taking down the antenna. I will try to remember to get the name/address of the person I bought it from off the antenna. I do recall that he lives in Apple Valley, Ca. but don't remember the street or anything. --- þ QMPro 1.53 þ stephen_king@bbs.fullcoll.edu From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:15:55 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: Howard Udoff Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: 1.5 ghz antenna needed for GPS receiver Date: 31 Aug 1995 01:32:11 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 11 Message-ID: <4233er$9qr@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-prn1-02.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b5 (Windows; I; 16bit) Any brave soul in this group that's able to design a good passive or active receiver for 1.5 ghz satellite work for a GPS receiver?. I got the satellite experimenter's book but the quadrifillar design was too complex. Perhaps someone can recommend something else? Can be active if the parts can be readily obtained. Don't have any test equipment at that freq. That's the cahllenge. Thanks & 73's Howard K2PYY udoff@ix.netcom.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:15:56 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 31 Aug 1995 02:00:39 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 33 Message-ID: <423547$gh2@maureen.teleport.com> References: <809762023.28021@pinetree.microserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx02-52.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) writes: > w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) writes: ; >As the person who coined the terms "current balun" and "voltage ; >balun", I've regarded "choke balun" to be the same as "current ; >balun". Can you point to an example of a balun which is a "current ; >balun" and not a "choke balun"? ; ; Roy, for the sake of common terminology, what would you call the ; transformer at the input of my tuner? As you know, it's bifilar wound ; and the schematic looks like a conventional transformer. ; ; It's not a choke-type device, but as we discussed elsewhere, it forces ; equal currents in the line. Maybe this is outside the group of ; devices you're referring to, but it's the main example that has caused ; me to make the distinction between a choke balun and a current balun ; in this thread. ; ; 73, ; ; Jack Jack, I agree that calling this a "choke" is stretching it, even though it does have the effect of stopping current flow on the outside of the line. And it does perform the function of a "current balun". So I guess this is an example of one which isn't quite the other. Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:15:57 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Which is the best antenna book? Date: 31 Aug 1995 08:39:30 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 16 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <424ai2$eai@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <41tfjp$i1q@news1.inlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <41tfjp$i1q@news1.inlink.com>, raiar@inlink.com (Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.) writes: >>- >I can't help you with which one's the best, but I can steer you away from >the worst. The ARRL Antenna Book! >Gary > > Gary, I wonder why you say that. IMO it is either the stuff in Bill Orr's books or Lew McCoy's crap. The ARRL Compendiums are full of weird science, but the regular handbook seems ok to me. Have I missed some changes lately (my copy is about 20 years old)? 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:15:58 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Baluns, Should they be used? Date: 31 Aug 1995 08:40:03 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 35 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <424aj3$eaj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <421jd2$kk1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Gary Coffman wrote: >>If we try to make the measurement with one probe connected to >>ground, and the other moving along the dipole element, we'll >>get readings that are site and configuration dependent. The >>antenna fields will induce currents in the ground below them >>that will form an image antenna. Depending on the symmetry >>of the system, the distance of the antenna above ground, >>and the conductance of the various bits of soil under the >>antenna, that image will be distorted in various ways. >> I think this is something that needs clarified also. This is a poor application of an image antenna. The image antenna really doesn't physically exist! It is only a "tool" used to calculate antenna patterns. The image is an *imaginary* antenna place a certain distance below the real antenna. The placement of this "imaginary" antenna is usually determined by ground effects several wavelenths in each direction from the real antenna. For example: The "image antenna", as applied to a half wave horizontally polarized radiator is traditionally placed a half wave below ground level. But if we dug a tunnel and took measurement equipment into the earth, there would be very little (if any) current in the ground at that depth. Another example would be the "image antenna" of a vertical. Directly below the antenna the fields quickly go to zero, the image is actually "formed" by what happens several wavelengths out from the radiator. This is also the reason "the ground" several wavelenths from a vertical determines the low angle radiation pattern, and not the ground directly below or very close to the radiator. Again, taking a sensitive instrument into the earth below the antenna would reveal the image really does NOT physically exist below the radiator. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:00 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntpgate.primenet.com!nntpdist.primenet.com!ip053 From: nx7u@primenet.com (Scott Townley) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Ladder Line Loss Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 11:34:19 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 64 Message-ID: <4246np$67e@nnrp3.primenet.com> References: <809451695.16841@pinetree.microserve.com> <41nsal$4jg@news.azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip053.phx.primenet.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 In article <41nsal$4jg@news.azstarnet.com>, Wes Stewart wrote: > >I ran your antenna in EZNEC using the high accuracy ground model for both >"good" ground and "poor" ground. (200' dipole, 20' high, 1.9 MHz) > >The feed-point impedances were for good gnd: 24.65-j366 >and poor gnd: 34.85-365j. > >Using the following assumptions: Line Zo=450+j0; Loss = 0.065dB/100 ft; Er = 1.08 > >for the good gnd case: load SWR = 30.4; input SWR = 24.7; input Z = 25.9+j292 >total line loss = .89 dB. > >For the poor gnd case: load SWR = 21.5; input SWR = 18.5; input Z = 34.5+j291 >total line loss = .65 dB. > >For your assumption of Zl = 1.26-j489: load SWR = 779; input SWR = 114; >input Z = 4.8=j209 and total line loss = 8.34. > >Note, my line loss data is higher than you probably used, particularly if you >used the chart in the ARRL publications. This chart is WRONG for ladder line. >I have discussed this with Dean Straw and he agrees; it will be changed in >future issues. Other items of interest: in this months QST, Technical >Correspondence column, there is discussion of the effects of small amounts >of reactance in the line Zo. My loss computations agree with their results >but I have yet to completely understand how to determine the reactive part >of the line impedance without measuring it. Unless I missed something (highly >probable ), the derivation of the equation for Xo isn't obvious to me. > >All of the above does not shed any light on why you can't tune this thing. >Must be something else wrong. Because the dipole isn't too far away from full size, >one would intutively expect the real part of Zl to be much higher than >you conputed, so the EZNEC answers seem correct. Good luck. > Wes-- I've been exchanging info with Dean Straw for the past several weeks regarding the Technical Correspondance article you mention. We've been discussing some technical refinements to some of the calculations, primarily applicable in high-Q cases. As I don't want to short circuit that process, I won't elaborate on the matter yet (I imagine Dean will when he's satisfied), but let me state the following: 1) Yep, the line loss quoted in the ARRL Antenna Book for ladder line bears no resemblance to reality. 2) The equation Dean gave for Xo is a typo: he said Xo=-j*alpha/beta where alpha is the attenuation constant in nepers/meter beta is the phase constant in radians/meter The correct equation is Xo=-j*alpha/beta*ZO I can send you a derivation of this equation if you want. It didn't look right to me at first so I rederived it myself (it's not dimensionally consistent, for one) and checked it against some references I have. 3) Keep your eyes peeled for further discussion regarding this topic in QST! Scott Townley nx7u@primenet.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:01 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: w8jitom@aol.com (W8JI Tom) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Uni-Hat CTSVR Short Vertical Date: 31 Aug 1995 11:55:40 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 30 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <424m1s$gvk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <424916$4s5@usenet4.interramp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <424916$4s5@usenet4.interramp.com>, Grant Youngman writes: > >If you were to consider the cost, time, and tribulation of building something >with a >17' diameter top hat from scratch -- well, its a heck of a lot simpler to >write a >check. > >(Not an argument in favor of the antenna, just a point of view ) :-) > >Grant/NQ5T > > And it looks like a WELL constructed antenna. My *only* objection was to the outlandish performance claims (especially how the radiation resistance and efficiency were improved by the skirt wires) the company initially used, and Lew McCoys obvious dribble about it. As far as other verticals go, I'm sure it would kill a GAP (another company that uses false technical claims of eliminated ground loss) on all bands of operation and it should beat a Butternut on 160 and 80. That big hat will help a lot on those bands. The rest of it is "just an antenna", like any other antenna. I doubt anyone could build an identical antenna cheaper, even if a home made antenna could be made to perform a bit better. 73 Tom From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:02 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!interramp.com!usenet From: Grant Youngman Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Uni-Hat CTSVR Short Vertical Date: 31 Aug 1995 12:13:26 GMT Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link Lines: 18 Message-ID: <424916$4s5@usenet4.interramp.com> References: <41o1gj$l1b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip164.dallas2.tx.interramp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2b6 (Windows; I; 16bit) depaul@spk.hp.com (Marc DePaul) wrote: >And it's VERY expensive! > > >Marc If you compare its price with that of a GAP Voyager, or the linear loaded verticals from Force 12, it isn't all that far out of line. They can be had for less than list. If you were to consider the cost, time, and tribulation of building something with a 17' diameter top hat from scratch -- well, its a heck of a lot simpler to write a check. (Not an argument in favor of the antenna, just a point of view ) :-) Grant/NQ5T From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:03 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!yama.mcc.ac.uk!thor.cf.ac.uk!news From: sce2038.ac.uk Subject: Help needed - Direction finding Aerial Sender: news@cf.ac.uk (USENET News System) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:31:04 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: d108.coll.cf.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Organization: Cardiff University of Wales Lines: 11 I wish to construct a "homing device" to work over short range (up to a mile - possibly more). Does anybody know where I could find a design for the receiving aerial (and receiver if possible)? Thanks Bert From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:04 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dorite!ts03-ind-1 From: mai@iquest.net (Patrick Croft) Subject: Re: Bobtail Curtain Anyone? Message-ID: Sender: news@iquest.net (News Admin) Organization: IQuest Network Services X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1 References: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 13:43:38 GMT Lines: 15 "George L. Hiscox" wrote: >I forgot to add that I have posted the top fed bobtail curtain >model (cleverly named TOPBOB40.EZ) at emclab.ee.umr.edu in >/pub/aces/NEC for anonymous ftp. > >73/George > >-- >| George L. Hiscox | Very funny Scotty... Now | >| ghiscox@netcom.com | beam down my clothes !!! | >| WA6RIK @ WB6YMH.#socal.ca.usa.na | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | > > George - see what your program shows on the bobtail when fed as a half-sq.(top corner end element). Would sure ease installation! Would like to know you Thanks much & keep plotting. Patrick / WB9IQI From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:05 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!miltf From: miltf@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Milt Forsberg) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Antenna on Fiberglass Vehicle Date: 31 Aug 1995 14:07:29 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 12 Message-ID: <424fn1$g5n@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Can anyone make suggestions for antennas on a fiberglass topped vehicle? I particullar, a high-top van. I have used NMO mounts on previous vans, but with no steel for ground plane, I suspect I might have problems with SWR. I have been using a Larson 2m/440 antenna along with a cellular phone antenna permanently mounted. Also, I put a couple others on with a mag mount for 6 meters and a scanner. My HF antenna mounts on the rear on the trailer hitch, so that should be fine as it has been. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Milt, K9QZI Champaign, IL From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:06 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch!galen.med.Virginia.EDU!sem2r From: sem2r@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Stacey E. Mills) Subject: U.S. Towers Crank-up Question X-Nntp-Posting-Host: galen.med.virginia.edu Message-ID: Sender: usenet@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU Organization: uva Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:20:02 GMT Lines: 23 I want to purchase a 72 ft. crank-up tower, probably a U.S. Towers model. They have a "standard" model, good for 18 sq. ft. at 50 MPH and a "heavy duty" model, good for 30 sq. ft. I'll be mounting a log periodic (about 10 sg. ft), maybe a terrestrial 2 m. beam, a VHF/UHF vertical, and maybe one day a 6 mtr. beam. The area will definitely be less than 18 sq. feet, but maybe not a whole lot less. I live on the side of a mountain, relatively sheltered from high winds, in central Virginia, but we still get occasional good stiff "breezes." Is there any advantage to going with the heavy duty tower? Does the standard model perform well "under load" when fully extended with 15+ sq. ft. of wind load? Any other thoughts greatly appreciated. Please E-mail direct to: sem2r@galen.med.virginia.edu Thanks!! -- -73's de WB4QKT Stacey E. (Chuck) Mills E-mail: sem2r@galen.med.virginia.edu From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:07 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Bobtail Curtain Anyone? Date: 31 Aug 1995 17:10:17 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 30 Message-ID: <424qdp$da7@maureen.teleport.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx02-09.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) ; "George L. Hiscox" writes: ; . . . ; Having just finished modeling a half-square which is fed at one ; top corner, I decided to see what would happen if I fed the ; bobtail at the top of the middle vertical wire instead of at the ; bottom. . . . ; Does anyone have any experience feeding a bobtail curtain in this ; manner? What are the drawbacks aside from the obvious one of the ; weight of the feedline at the center of the antenna? Is the ; bobtail curtain fed in such a fashion still considered a bobtail ; curtain, or is it another "Real McCoy?" You might have difficulty keeping the feedline from becoming part of the antenna and goofing up the pattern, because of coupling between antenna and feedline. Include in your model a wire representing the outside of the coax, placed about where it will actually be routed. Include the path from your rig to earth ground (a guess is better than nothing for this). Use 500-1k ohm loads to simulate current baluns and see how many you'll need and where they have to be placed to get the current down to a reasonable level on the outside of the coax. 73, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:08 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: w7el@teleport.com (Roy Lewallen) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: What antenna would you use??? Date: 31 Aug 1995 17:55:10 GMT Organization: ELNEC/EZNEC Software Lines: 54 Message-ID: <424t1u$fev@maureen.teleport.com> References: <41vqh7$q26@chnews.ch.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx03-37.teleport.com X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) > cmoore@sedona.intel.com writes: > In article <41ui52$987@maureen.teleport.com>, > Roy Lewallen wrote: > > >So a balun wouldn't be effective at the output of your > >tuner on the bands where you have the high impedance you report. > > Hi Roy, this is an area not covered well in the ARRL Handbook and > Antenna Book. I was having trouble with the MFJ outboard current > balun when I read the Nov '93 CQ article by Jerry Sevick. Based > on that article, I bought the Amidon HBHT200 10kw voltage balun > and it *seems* to work well with no detectable temperature > increase on any of the bands. So my question is, what does the > HBHT200 do to my 1793+j2085 impedance at 100w? (that is the impedance > predicted by ELNEC and MicroSmith). > > If I had a 300 ohm balanced SWR meter, I could make some measurements. > Can anyone point me toward a build, buy, borrow, or rent 300 ohm balanced > forward/reverse power meter? What I want to do is measure the efficiency > of the HBHT200 under extreme conditions. > > 73, Cecil, KG7BK, OOTC (not speaking for my employer) > >>>> I agree with Jack's answer. One of the things a 1:1 voltage balun does is to put windings across the feedpoint. (Z-transforming current baluns do this too.) If the Z of the windings isn't large compared to the feedpoint Z, substantial current will flow through them in addition to the current going to the antenna. If the winding Z has a reasonably high Q, the loss may not be great, and it just looks like an inductor hooked across the terminals. Your tuner may or may not be able to tune this additional reactance out. In fact, it may help your tuner effect a match. However, if you do a simple analysis of the currents involved, you'll find that if your antenna is perfectly balanced, one feedline wire will get a current which is larger than the other by an amount 2 * Iw, where Iw is the current drawn by the windings across the feedpoint. So insufficient winding impedance will lead to feedline imbalance even if your antenna is perfectly balanced with respect to ground. What I don't know how to do is to get an impedance that's large relative to 1 or 2 k ohms over a reasonable range of frequencies. I can do it with a resonant circuit, but don't think I can with a broadband transformer. Maybe the RF power guys can comment. It looks like the Z requirements are about the same as for a plate choke, but you've got to make a transformer with good coefficient of coupling out of one. I doubt if any of Sevick's transformers pull this off either, but if someone has any measurements to offer, I'd be interested in what they show. 73, Roy Lewallen, W7EL w7el@teleport.com From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:09 1995 Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.shortwave Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!news1.boi.hp.com!news From: Your_Name_Here Subject: Re: Tinted Window Question Sender: news@boi.hp.com (Boise Site News Server) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 19:47:55 GMT To: eeb@access.digex.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <41l9ml$ck@dropit.pgh.net> <4221f4$96g@news4.digex.net> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpgreck.gr.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho Lines: 13 Xref: grape.epix.net rec.radio.amateur.antenna:13537 rec.radio.shortwave:57884 YES, MANY OF THESE COATINGS ARE CONDUCTIVE. SEVERAL YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS INVOLVED IN THE RF ELECTRONIC ID INDUSTRY, WE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM GETTING RF ENERGY IN AND OUT OF THE VEHICLE CAB TO POWER/READ OUR TAGS. AS I REMEMBER, THE FORD VEHICLES HAD A GOLD OR YELLOW/BRONZE LOOKING COATING THAT WAS A VERY GOOD SHIELD FOR 915 MHZ AND 2450 MHZ. IN ADDITION, MANY OF THE WHOLE-GLASS DEFROSTERS ARE RESISTIVE METALLIC COATINGS WHICH HEAT WHEN A CURRENY (12 VDC) IS PASSED THROUGH THEM. CHECK BEFORE YOU SPEND MONEY ON GLASS-MOUNTED ANTENNAS! DAVE ECKHARDT W6LEV DAVEE@gr.hp.com (I think) From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:10 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!news.bctel.net!news.island.net!ham!rsmits From: rsmits@ham.island.net (Robert Smits) Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: How to feed HF Quad?? Message-ID: <083195201111Rnf0.79b6@ham.island.net> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:11:00 PST References: <809759998.27069@pinetree.microserve.com> <809846212.15919@pinetree.microserve.com> <4258s5$qpq@fountain.mindlink.net> Reply-To: rsmits@ham.island.net Distribution: world Organization: The Curmudgeon's Cottage X-Newsreader: Rnf 0.79b6 Lines: 31 gpritcha@vanieee.wimsey.bc.ca (Gordon Pritchard) writes: >jackl@pinetree.microserve.com (WB3U) wrote: > >> mike_cash@mlngw.chinalake.navy.mil (Mike, KN6IS) wrote: > >>>Jack (or anyone else), if I use a balun, should it be a 1:1 or 4:1 >>>and should it be a voltage or current balun (chock W2DU)? > >>You'll want a 1:1 to match the feedpoint impedance of a quad to your >>coax. > > For a quad, you'll want a **2:1** balun to match the 93 - 100 ohm >feedpoint impedance (50-ohm co-ax, standard sort of antenna height). Doesn't this rather depend on your element spacing? I was under the impression that as you reduced the spacing, you also decreased the antenna impedance. According to Orr, the radiation resistance of a two element quad varies from 40 ohms to 140 ohms as the element spacing varies from 0.07 wavelength to .25 wavelength. He suggests further that at around 0.08 wavelength spacing, the impedance is about 50 ohms. What your actual impedance is will thus depend on height above ground, element spacing and number of elements. Some of my acquaintances have successfully fed a Gem Quad directly with coax, with no balun at all. -- rsmits@ham.island.net (Robert Smits) From amsoft@epix.net Sun Sep 03 18:16:13 1995 Path: grape.epix.net!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!ifwtech.demon.co.uk From: Ian G3SEK Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Best VHF antenna analyzer ; archives Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:57:14 GMT Organization: IFWtech Lines: 115 Message-ID: <280312890wnr@ifwtech.demon.co.uk> References: <41jdcg$ocf@nyx.cs.du.edu> <41sp3m$2mv@tadpole.fc.hp.com> <41upil$2j88@info4.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> <424e35$php@mgate.arrl.org> Reply-To: G3SEK@ifwtech.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ifwtech.demon.co.uk X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 31, 1995 20.57.14 X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7 In article: <424e35$php@mgate.arrl.org> Zack Lau writes: : : DL5UH moritz@ipers1.e-technik.uni-stuttgart.de () wrote: : >>The reason: almost NOONE owns a good signal strength meter that they can : >>go out and take readings with. Given that antennas are one area of : >>amateur radio where people still do a lot of experimenting, I'm surprized : >>someone like MFJ hasn't come out with a good signal strength meter. : > : : Joe Reisert, W1JR, brought the one he uses at work to the VHF/UHF : conference antenna range this year. No, I don't remember the HP model : number... Maybe next year we will have more antennas to compare. Probably some version of the HP415, which is actually a calibrated *audio* level meter, intended to be used with a square-law diode detector and a 1kHz modulated signal source. It can be very accurate, but the signal strength measurement is almost the least of the problems compared with setting-up a test range to avoid spurius reflections and give really accurate results. : >He mentioned that it is very difficult to measure an antenna : >pattern anywhere near to the accuracy it can be calculated by NEC 2, : >and would also require a proper test site. Measuring the pattern is the most difficult thing of all, because low-level sidelobe structure can be totally masked by even minor reflections from the main beam pointing the other way. To avoid this you need a very, very big site, clear of reflecting features for a long way all around, or a very large anechoic chanber such as the one used by DL6WU for his original series of measurements on long yagis. These are still a benchmark for computer modeling - and they're also very good, reliable yagi designs. On HF, accurate gain and pattern measurements are almost impossible for amateurs, so the technique that gives the least errors is computer modeling. On the other hand, simple comparative gain measurements between VHF/UHF antennas of similar gain and beamwidth are much less difficult. The narrower beamwidth makes it easier to avoid problems due to stray reflections, and it's always easier to compare tow antennas that are very similar. : > : >Therefore he concluded that one is not too far off by building the antenna : >to the dimensions given by NEC2. I'd agree with that. Handled properly, NEC2 or even something simpler such as K6STI's MN or YO can give results at least as accurate as anything you'd be able to measure. (The original MININEC is trickier to use and requires some arbitrary corrections for VHF/UHF yagi elements.) Even so, you should always make some practical checks. If you have a computer prediction to check against, the levels of the first sidelobes relative to the main lobe are a very good indicator that the antenna is working as you'd expect. Since you cannot practically model the feed method, it's also essential to make swept VSWR measurements, and check that the levels of the first sidelobes are exactly equal - a quite sensitive test of feedpoint unbalance. : : Does someone have known good NEC2 models for popular methods of : mounting antennas on metal booms? NEC2 is probably just fine : for wooden and plastic booms, but many people prefer the higher : strength to weight ratio of aluminum. You don't use a computer model for that. Whatever your proposed boom material and mounting method, you always model the antenna as if the elements were floating in free space. Then you apply a simple correction to the element lengths to compensate for the boom and mounting. For HF antennas, see W2PV's book on Yagis; for VHF/UHF see K1FO's chapter in the ARRL Antenna Book, DL6WU in the VHF/UHF DX Book, or DJ9BV in DUBUS. : I think a comparison on : an antenna range is a good idea. Even a poor range will indicate : whether something is seriously wrong. Yes, and if possible a head-to-head comparison with a very similar antenna. This can be very embarrassing, but it's better to know! : A test I've devised for people without proper ranges is to measure the : frequency at which the pattern of a beam degrades to more or less : omnidirectional. You can go back to the computer model and see if it : matches reality. This might even work at HF with broadcast stations : if you do enough averaging to reduce the effect of varying propagation. : In principle it's better to test the antenna at the frequency it's intended to work on. With short yagis (less than say 10 ele) the whole shape of the pattern can change very rapidly with frequency, so this is a good diagnostic tool. For example you can usually identify the frequency where the F/B ratio passes through its maximum, and compare that against the frequency predicted by the model. The whole idea is to verify that the yagi that you modeled is also the yagi that you built. If you can confirm that using performance features that may not be important but you can easily measure, you can also be quite confident about more important aspects of performance that aren't so easy to measure. -- 73 from Ian G3SEK Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book' 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) Professionally: IFW Technical Services Clear technical English - anywhere.