Operating System Comparisons (2) (Fidonet) Saturday, 20-Nov-1999 to Friday, 26-Nov-1999 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Oliver Katigbak 18-Nov-99 12:59:00 To: Mike Ruskai 21-Nov-99 06:57:07 Subj: Re: judge is wrong -=> MIKE RUSKAI wrote to SCOTT LITTLE <=- MR> Jerry Pournelle has never known much of anything about computers. Him MR> being wrong hasn't been an unusual event for as long as I've seen him MR> write for BYTE. I also see that OS war history has nothing to do w/ the judges decision. IBM and Apple may have made bad decisions in the past, but, would u like features like putting ur name online w/o u knowing it? The innovation before a clean and bug-free prorgam being constantly stated by the author is stupid, IMO. I think I'd rather wait for a really good program than always receiving updates that just end up crashing my system. ... Windows 98: What IBM employees get drunk and joke about. --- MultiMail/Linux v0.32 * Origin: The File Bank BBS! Makati. Philippines +63-2-896-3116 (6:751/321) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Scott Little 20-Nov-99 14:20:26 To: MIKE RUSKAI 21-Nov-99 14:18:18 Subj: judge is wrong [ 18 Nov 99 18:02, MIKE RUSKAI wrote to SCOTT LITTLE ] MR> I don't argue against people by proxy. Come up with your own MR> arguments, or don't bother writing at all. i did not say i agreed with the article or not. i just posted it. you're the one who suggests that the entire article is void because, in your opinion, the author has been wrong before. -- Scott Little, 3:712/848@fidonet | slittle@bbs.slittle.com --- FMail/2 1.48+ * Origin: Cyberia: You know you want it. [02-9596-0284] (3:712/848) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Scott Little 22-Nov-99 18:24:04 To: All 23-Nov-99 18:38:28 Subj: big brother FUD from geeknews.net Big Brother FUD by Mark Maxey (frank-n-f) Today I scrolled through the pages of slashdot, geeknews and wired to see claims stating Microsoft has a backdoor open for the NSA, the National Security Agency, in the windows source code. Big brother Microsoft working with the NSA or one the usual overpublicized bugs in Microsoft products I wondered. The key named _NSAKEY is found in ADVAPI32.DLL by disassembling the file. In theory the hole may be exploited by replacing _NSAKEY with your own key, keeping the Windows API security subsystem running by not corrupting the old one, in turn bypassing the windows security subsystem completely. This will also allow access to the highest levels of the windows security. The exploitation of such would be complex and would require some internal method of rewriting the key. In other words something must be able to manually overwrite the source without corrupting the subsystem, or everything lays over and dies. The real deal on the key is the key only arguably weakens the API cryptography and exploitation of the bug would be very challenging since the key just can't magically be rewritten. Microsoft doesn't sign anything that the Export Department, which is likned to the NSA, doesn't sign. The NSA insisted that their must be a backup key. What if the Microsoft key were cracked, then what would we do? Windows users would be forced to use a beaten key. At the Microsoft Press release, Microsoft stated that the real key in question was the Microsoft Key, or the active crypto key, that was not shared with any organization, but they must include the dead NSA key, to comply with export laws. Which, after a bit of research I have verified that this must be included. In all of the madness of this situation, there has been one obvious detail that has been overlooked. Do you think that FBI agents tracking down child pornographers on the net use their .gov addresses? Hell no, why in the world would Microsoft or the NSA be so stupid as to name their backdoor after their agency? Really, think about this for just a second. If you were gonna go and break into someone's house would you spraypaint insert name was here on the wall? Probably not, unless you were really really stupid. In reality, the madness spurred just because a variable name had the letters NSA in it and no other reason. The rest of the rumor was just propaganda to further persuade people that they should use an alternative operating system with no real support. Obviously the people posting these rumors were complete idiots trying to ruin the Microsoft reputation as the worlds top software developer. This so-called security bug really isn't a security issue, but a blatant personal attack on Microsoft. Everyone it seems with the closed minded, militant linux syndrome is just aching to make Microsoft look bad even if they must spread false information. Turning a rumor that is virtually unfounded into a major media issue is not the way to fight the anti-ms war people. This event just goes to show how childish people can be when it comes jealousy. The fact is, most people out there are more than satisfied with their Microsoft products. But the average, less than savvy, computer user would truly be scared by the thought of Microsoft buddying up with the NSA. Not because of a realistic security breach, but because some script kiddy throws out some technical jargon that is completely unfounded just to cause fear, uncertainty and doubt in the mindless computer user. Can we say McCarthyism boys and girls? The security issue in this case was more of a witch hunt to make Microsoft look bad than a realistic security compromisation. This is just my two cents of the matter. Take it as you will, but research the situation for yourself and you will clearly see what I am speaking of. Someone that was either stupid and/or motivated to destroy Microsoft's pristine image saw the variable name NSA in a windows crypto file. The person immediately connects it as a backdoor to the NSA, the crypto export control organization, who simply put an unused key in the windows API code in the case of a security compromise. The fact is, if this was really exploitable, someone would have noticed it way before now and would have been using it to their advantage. All in all, a silly situation that got blown out of proportion because people are paranoid, vengeful and uninformed. -- Scott Little, 3:712/848@fidonet | slittle@bbs.slittle.com --- FMail/2 1.48a+ * Origin: Cyberia: You know you want it. [02-9596-0284] (3:712/848) 128/139 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Scott Little 22-Nov-99 18:25:25 To: All 23-Nov-99 18:38:28 Subj: shut the FUD up from geeknews.net Shut the FUD up By David Grant(xix) - June 19th,1999 Look it's a bug in a Microsoft product. No shit sherlock. Fact is every program has bugs. Recently Firas Bushnaq of eEye(a security company) discovered a bug in IIS. A buffer-overflow bug that could be used to run malicious code on the web server itself. Firas didn't stop there after he discovered it. He went out and distributed a program to exploit the hole. Is this fair practice? When you find a bug to go public with it on a national scale and release programs to take advantage of the bug? Why would eEye do such a thing? Obviously to gain fame. How is it that by releasing this information the company gained fame? Because it was a bug in a Microsoft product. Microsoft bashing is what it is. It's ok to bash Microsoft because they have a monopoly right? Why not? Everyone is doing it. It's IN to bash Microsoft. It's COOL to bash Microsoft. The government. The Linux advocates. Sun, AOL, Apple hell even Microsoft employees have been known to bash Microsoft publicly. To many the term FUD originates from Microsoft's favorite tactics. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. They pressure OEMs to include Windows as the default operating system or they will not receive substantial cuts in cost and support on the latest beta's. They use shady business tactics and sheer legal power to win battles. FUD is Microsoft. Or was I should say. Now FUD is what is used AGAINST Microsoft. AOL is buying everything 'cool' coming from the internet. Fear. The government accuses Microsoft of monopolizing the computer market. Uncertainty. Linux advocates want you to think the Linux operating system is better for you than Windows. Doubt. American's have always been rebels. To be a rebel you need something to rebel against. Every competitor(or future competitor) to Microsoft see's this grass roots feeling as a weapon. The virtual David that wants to kill the Goliath with a little stone. This time tho it's many David's and a hell of a lot of stones aiming at Goliath. All these little David's have their own agendas. They all want your eyeballs or your heart. At least with Goliath we know what we are getting. What are we gaining by bashing Microsoft? Some think if they bash Microsoft enough that the companys hold on the operating system market share will be affected. Truth is if that happen we can look forward to a ton of incompatibility. Oh sure brand x operating system may work with 60% of the hardware out there but as a consumer personally I should not have to worry about such things. I should be able to go to my local store buy a computer that offers complete compatibility. Lets take a quick look at some of those David's. Linux advocates claim they are all about choices. Give users a choice. 'Let us play fair on a level field' Sun claims if you would just let them they can make all your hardware compatible with Java. 'Really we can' AOL thinks they can offer you everything you need to be connected to the internet. 'Here let us show you' All three come at a price. The FUD tactics of these three groups are equally as devious as Microsoft's own tactics. So now you have choices. Isn't it a shame that the big companies and the big movements install these fear within us? The choices are great and in the long run MAYBE this all will enhance our computing lives, but in the short term it just makes you feel real crappy about the whole 'computer thing'. The internet has put computers in the spotlight. People come here for the first time on a daily basis. What do they see? Fear, uncertainty and doubt. Shut the FUD up. === Cut === -- Scott Little, 3:712/848@fidonet | slittle@bbs.slittle.com --- FMail/2 1.48a+ * Origin: Cyberia: You know you want it. [02-9596-0284] (3:712/848) 128/139 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Scott Little 22-Nov-99 18:26:04 To: All 23-Nov-99 18:38:28 Subj: why penguins can't fly on the desktop from geeknews.net Why penguins can't fly on the desktop July 12th, 1999 - Article #1 The other day my Mom was over at my house for dinner. As I was checking my e-mail between small talk, she wandered into my office. I thought this would be a great chance to show off my great LiteStep setup. After going through all the neat functions, the fact that it has a smaller footprint, the productivity enhancements, the fact that I WORKED on it, and the fact that it was Free (like speech..). After mulling over all the factoids I had thrown at her, she did something I fully didn't expect her to. She replied, quite simply, "So what?" I was astounded. This was the neatest thing I had run across in my years and years of computing and my technophobe mother wasn't even phased by it. I got angry, I presumed she didn't understand, so I went over it again with her, using smaller words and talking slower. She gave me a nasty look, and trying not to yell, said, "I understood the first time. I just don't get what the big deal is. I can do everything I want to already, why would I change it? Why should I care?" Rather than simply flying off the handle, as I would've done when I was younger, I thought about what she was saying. She just honestly didn't care about my wondrous creation, it didn't matter to her. She surfs the web. She types things, and prints them. She doesn't care what the heck she's doing it on, to her it's simply a typewriter with a monitor attached. At this point, it was I who was lost, so I pulled my sister into the office. I proceeded to go over everything that I had explained to my Mom to Sis. She shrugged, "It looks pretty, but who cares? Where's ICQ?" I couldn't believe what I was hearing! My sister, 18, isn't exactly a Geek, but she's not of the "hey look, it's got color!" generation. She's supposed to like this crap! Being totally flabbergasted at this point, I sat down to the dinner that I made, and ate. After dinner, I started into the typical Geek questionnaire. "What do you think of Microsoft?" "What do you think of Windows?" Etc. The answers amazed me. "Microsoft? They make the stuff we use to print stuff out" was the gist of their answer. What? No political stance? I was becoming disenfranchised rather quickly here. "Windows? Yeah, it's neat, I love the start button." My jaw hit the table. I couldn't believe I was of the same bloodline as these people. I got quickly frustrated, and questioned their motives. I was totally unprepared for what followed. "It's just a computer Brad, sheesh." When was the last time you heard that? This showed me two things. 1) I need to get out and talk to more real people. Geeks all think the same, basically. 2) Microsoft is successful because people are generally apathetic. They ARE just computers, and if they can print out your term paper, they're just peachy. Linux needs people to be active, to be part of a community, to succeed. Unless there's a major shift in thinking amongst the general populace, I don't see people wanting Linux. The rhetoric of RMS will simply not work with "real" people. Telling them they have a right to Free software will only make them look at him funny, but from what I understand, that's commonplace. That's the catch, I guess. It's not that people don't want Free software. It's not that people are Microsoft clones, drudging away in a life tied to Windows against their will. It won't be Microsoft doing something dastardly that keeps Linux off the desktop. It's simply that real people don't care what operating system they use. They just want to print stuff. -- Scott Little, 3:712/848@fidonet | slittle@bbs.slittle.com --- FMail/2 1.48a+ * Origin: Cyberia: You know you want it. [02-9596-0284] (3:712/848) 128/139 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Jack Stein 21-Nov-99 21:46:22 To: Scott Little 23-Nov-99 18:38:28 Subj: judge is wrong Scott Little wrote in a message to Mike Ruskai: MR> I don't argue against people by proxy. Come up with your own MR> arguments, or don't bother writing at all. SL> i did not say i agreed with the article or not. i just SL> posted it. you're the one who suggests that the entire SL> article is void because, in your opinion, the author has SL> been wrong before. I think he is wrong because he is either talking out of his ass, or is dumb as dirt, probably both. Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some computer store shelves, such as egghead yet? I'm a little curious about this one... I always thought a bit strange that you had to go to a book store to buy a computer operating system... I also always found it strange that in a supposedly super competitive business like selling computers, that at least some large retailers, such as Gateway, didn't offer OS/2 as an optional install or even a parallel install? It would seem to me that totally ignoring 15 million users in a cut throat business was pretty wierd. Wonder how that works? If the auto industry was that lame, we would all be driving black Ford model T's. I guess those of us running WIN know about that, although the model T at least worked well and was easily fixed when it broke. I wonder if your friend Jerry can "imagine" what sort of car he'd be driving today if FORD was the only large auto company on earth, and 99% of the gas stations sold only gas that would work in a FORD? Assholes like Jerry would be saying the same crap... WOW, I drove 100 miles the other day w/o a breakdown, I might only get 10 miles to the gallon, but there are FORD gas stations on every corner, and it's really cheap, at just $4 a gallon... why would anyone want to piss on FORD, they are giving us what we "want"... Everyone "wants" screwed it seems... Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR 56k Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Darrell Salter 24-Nov-99 22:09:12 To: David Bowerman 25-Nov-99 05:59:27 Subj: big brother FUD Hello David! DB> Gentle hint, Scott. Next time you feel like posting about something DB> which was kicked to death months back, do yourself a favour and DB> choose items which don't stuff the author's feet into your mouth. Regards, Darrell --- Msged/2 TE 05 * Origin: Amd.sparkys.dyndns.org (905) 433-9872 (1:229/2) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Robert Selberg 24-Nov-99 23:45:11 To: Jack Stein 25-Nov-99 06:37:05 Subj: judge is wrong JS> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some JS> computer store shelves, such as egghead yet? I'm a little curious JS> about this one... I always thought a bit strange that you had to JS> go to a book store to buy a computer operating system... Yep, here in Sweden you can buy the "Best Linux" distribution in two of swedens bigest mall chains. In a few week Statoil (a gas station chain) will start to sell the newest Microsoft games until christmas... // Robert --- Terminate 5.00/Pro * Origin: Vidarekoppla sin telefon till sig sj„lv (2:205/624.14) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Michael Wendell 24-Nov-99 09:21:00 To: Jack Stein 25-Nov-99 12:17:08 Subj: judge is wrong -> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some computer store -> shelves, such as egghead yet? I'm a little curious about this one... I always for quite a while now. i worked in a computer software store christmas '96 and we had linux on the shelf. -> retailers, such as Gateway, didn't offer OS/2 as an optional install or even a -> parallel install? It would seem to me that totally ignoring 15 million users gateway used to offer os/2 as an option. its been awhile though. mike --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v3.0pr2 - 0rigin: RelayNet - APPARATUS - http://www.theapparatus.net (900:100/5410) # Origin: MoonDog BBS, Brooklyn,NY, 718 692-2498, 1:278/230 (1:278/230) * Origin: The TALKING HUB * Alexandria, VA * (703) 549-5612 (1:109/11) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Martin Prieto 24-Nov-99 17:37:28 To: Scott Little 26-Nov-99 03:58:15 Subj: Re: why penguins can't fly on the deskto SL> That's the catch, I guess. It's not that people don't want Free SL> software. It's not that people are Microsoft clones, drudging away in a SL> life tied to Windows against their will. It won't be Microsoft doing SL> something dastardly that keeps Linux off the desktop. It's simply that SL> real people don't care what operating system they use. They just want SL> to print stuff. Shame. That my biggest problem, I can't get Linux to print. Just today it stopped printing ("cat afile.raw > /dev/lp0"). My mothers get angry sometimes. The other day she asked me to retrieve a file from her mail account. When it finished downloading the file (Word document, shame) I shaded Netscape and ran Word Perfect, then she yelled: "DAMN! This system is so complicated to use." I nearly yelled me too, I got very angry and explained to her that I do have to open the program to actually read the file! I put Kde for her, so that she doesn't get lost, I hope she won't get lost. I think that if Linux don't get a good printing spooler, dameon or whatever it will not make his place on mass population. Im using Slackware, so maybe that with Red Hat it's easier. (o_ UIN: 349 806 21 _o) //\ Voice: MARTIN GET YOU ASS IN HERE!! /\\ V_/_ e-mail: riverdale@penguinpowered.com _\_V ~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR] --- RG 98-356a/GE 1.20 * Origin: Mysteria BBS Node 1&2, Montreal (514)257-8043 (1:167/700) 911 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: David Bowerman 25-Nov-99 18:12:27 To: Jack Stein 26-Nov-99 03:58:15 Subj: judge is wrong Jack Stein wrote in a message to Scott Little: JS> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some JS> computer store shelves, such as egghead yet? I'm a little curious JS> about this one... I always thought a bit strange that you had to JS> go to a book store to buy a computer operating system... Several local computer stores now sell various Linux distributions. As well, several local clone merchants are now selling Linux preloaded. The ones that are small enough that Microsoft doesn't have the leverage through pricing that they have over a larger vendor. You can also get Linux preloaded from IBM. Regards, David --- timEd/2 1.10.y2k+ * Origin: Frog Hollow -- a scenic backroad off the Infobahn (1:153/290) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: David Bowerman 25-Nov-99 18:15:25 To: Martin Prieto 26-Nov-99 03:58:15 Subj: why penguins can't fly on the deskto Martin Prieto wrote in a message to Scott Little: MP> I think that if Linux don't get a good printing spooler, dameon MP> or whatever it will not make his place on mass population. Im MP> using Slackware, so maybe that with Red Hat it's easier. I'm currently using Mandrake 6.1 (virtually the same as RedHat 6.1) with Samba to allow users on the home LAN to print to a HP Laserjet. Seems to work without problems either from the remote boxes or the Linux box. Sorry I can't offer any more help than "well, it works here". Regards, David --- timEd/2 1.10.y2k+ * Origin: Frog Hollow -- a scenic backroad off the Infobahn (1:153/290) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Denny Hoff 25-Nov-99 23:05:28 To: Jack Stein 26-Nov-99 06:02:02 Subj: Re: judge is wrong -=> Jack Stein wrote to Scott Little <=- JS> Scott Little wrote in a message to Mike Ruskai: MR> I don't argue against people by proxy. Come up with your own MR> arguments, or don't bother writing at all. SL> i did not say i agreed with the article or not. i just SL> posted it. you're the one who suggests that the entire SL> article is void because, in your opinion, the author has SL> been wrong before. JS> I think he is wrong because he is either talking out of his ass, or is JS> dumb as dirt, probably both. JS> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some computer JS> store shelves, such as egghead yet? I'm a little curious about this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -------^^^^^^^^^^^ (1)>- JS> one... I always thought a bit strange that you had to go to a book JS> store to buy a computer operating system... I also always found it JS> strange that in a supposedly super competitive business like selling JS> computers, that at least some large retailers, such as Gateway, didn't JS> offer OS/2 as an optional install or even a parallel install? It would JS> seem to me that totally ignoring 15 million users in a cut throat JS> business was pretty wierd. Wonder how that works? If the auto ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (2)>-- JS> industry was that lame, we would all be driving black Ford model T's. JS> I guess those of us running WIN know about that, although the model T JS> at least worked well and was easily fixed when it broke. JS> I wonder if your friend Jerry can "imagine" what sort of car he'd be JS> driving today if FORD was the only large auto company on earth, and 99% JS> of the gas stations sold only gas that would work in a FORD? Assholes JS> like Jerry would be saying the same crap... WOW, I drove 100 miles the JS> other day w/o a breakdown, I might only get 10 miles to the gallon, but JS> there are FORD gas stations on every corner, and it's really cheap, at JS> just $4 a gallon... why would anyone want to piss on FORD, they are JS> giving us what we "want"... JS> Everyone "wants" screwed it seems... (1) As a matter of fact Jack, you can walk into Electronics Boutique and find a shelf full of Linux products. Electronics Boutique is a national chain, so I think that it qualifies as mainstream. They carry Redhat,Caldera, and Mandrake distributions as well as Wordperfect and other apps. (2) Jack, you and I both know that business is driven by profit. We don't need an expert to tell us that marketing is what ultimately brings that profit in. You tell me what is easier to sell, Flashy|limited| and slightly broken or, mundane|flexible to the absurd| and solid as a rock? As a following point to that, it becomes easy to sell incremental fixes when the user is looking to do away with a "small annoyance" verses "why change? It works just fine." Jack if you are referring to (and I know you are) IBMs apparent scuttling of OS/2 back in late '95, It is simple. IBM saw that selling the better mouse trap was not going to pull in as much money as selling the slightly broken alternatives. I don't even think that you are running Warp 4 are you Jack? Why? Because Warp 3 with at least FP17 installed is solid, reliable and "works fine". Meaning you haven't bought a copy since about 1994 while your eqivulent in the WIN side of the house has bought WIN95,WIN98, and is about to buy 2000. Now lets talk about all those "productivity addons" that are there to overcome design flaws and bugs. My estimate puts the WIN person at @ $450 to your $68 . Hmm. Maybe it is a conspirasy;-) Now before you go and blow a gasket on me Jack, I feel it is fair to warn you that I am not a WIN user and don't have any MS product on my system. I have used OS/2 since the 2.0 days, and only recently migrated to Linux full time. So I don't fit in the usual box of someone making these arguments. ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly --- MultiMail/Linux v0.31 * Origin: COMM Port OS/2 juge.com 204.89.247.1 (281) 980-9671 (1:106/2000) 128/139 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: Ron Nicholls 26-Nov-99 00:00:01 To: Scott Little 26-Nov-99 00:00:01 Subj: why penguins can't fly o SL> It's not that people are Microsoft clones, drudging away in a life SL> tied to Windows against their will. It won't be Microsoft doing SL> something dastardly that keeps Linux off the desktop. It's simply SL> that real people don't care what operating system they use. They SL> just want to print stuff. Unfortunately, you are quite correct. Nicely put. - - Regards RonN - --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: OS/2 Shareware BBS, telnet://bbs.os2bbs.com (1:109/347) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ +============================================================================+