: Charles wrote:
: >> Selling Kosher/Halal meat in the UK might make McDonald's
: >> claims regarding humane slaughter looks even more unrealistic. The implication of this statement is very clear. You are saying that Kosher and Halal meat is somehow *less* humane than secular methods of slaughter. Otherwise, the inclusion of such meat would not affect the realism of McDonalds' humane slaughter claims. You may not understand why your claim is racist and offensive to Jews and Muslims, but believe me, it is.
: Hate to tell you this, but the whole point of the various animal welfare regulations in this country regarding slaughter houses is to do the same thing - but it is still inhumane!
The various animal welfare regulations in secular slaughter-houses do not have the same kind of binding effect on the status of the meat that the religious requirements of Kashrut and Halal have. That is why Kashrut and Halal slaughter methods are less inhumane. In a secular slaughterhouse, where an animal happens to die in agony, its meat can still be sold. In a Kosher or Halal slaughterhouse, if a cow, say, should die in agony due to a mistake on the part of the slaughterer, its meat would not be religiously sanctioned for food and as far as Jews and Muslims are concerned, that cow might as well be a pig - ie not Kosher, not Halal, and neither Jews nor Muslims would eat it.
: Were is the evidence that these animals die instantly and do not suffer.
You are casting some serious aspersions here on the religious practices of cultures you neither know of nor understand. The evidence that these animals die instantly and do not suffer is deeply embedded in the mothods of ritual slaughter themselves, which I have explained. Re-read the bit below:
: > Moreover, by investing the slaughter of animals with religious
: > significance, Jews are constantly reminded of two key things:
: > a) that ideally we should be vegetarians.
: > b) that the slaughter of animals is not something to be taken
: > lightly, and that the animals must be treated with respect as G-d's
: > creatures.
: Nice thought. But personally I believe that missleading people into think that : meat production in our modern systems can be humane does more harm than good.
Judaism, like Islam, is a practical religion, and tends not to attempt to enforce the unenforceable. At its heart lies an ideological vegetarianism, but in practice, people have always eaten meat, which leads to the danger of inhumane slaughtering practices. Therefore, Judaism, like Islam, attempts to come up with a least-worst solution that is infinitely more likely to work in practice than some kind of utopianist 'everyone should be vegetarian' position. I agree with you that everyone should be vegetarian, but I don't see it happening. I see lots of animals being slaughtered for food every day. I'd rather those animals weren't slaughtered, but since they are, I'd rather it happened as humanely as possible.
: > The common misconception among non-Jews and non-Muslims that the
: > ritual slaughter methods used by Jews and Muslims are in some way
: > even less humane than those of secular slaughterhouses is in fact
: > a concealed form of racism, and is to be deplored.
: Come on. Speaking out about concern for animal welfare is not racism.
: I speak out against no-religous slaugter also and for the same reasons.
But you think ritual slaughter methods are *worse*. You've said so clearly. That's racist, because you don't understand the implications of what you are saying, and don't want to understand.
: In theory animals slaughter commerically (and not under religious law)
: should be pre stunned so that they are unconcious at the time they are killed.
In practice this does not always occur and animals are often awake at the time they have their throats cut and bleed to death. I speak out against both religious and commerical slaughter for the same reason - I don't believe animals should be made to suffer without reason and believe it is wrong to kill animals for food since meat is not required in the human diet.
Judaism takes the same view that it is basically wrong to kill animals for food, but people still do it, so humane ritual slaughter methods have been developed. The reason that stunning is not part of ritual slaughter is that it provides a false sense of security with regard to the pain felt by the animal, and as you rightly point out, the stunning process does not always work.
: > It is in those slaughterhouses where the killing of animals is *not*
: > invested with ritual significance, where the suffering of the animal
: > is irrelevant, and where mistakes are covered up that the real
: > problem lies.
: The process of religious slaughter does not prevent the final product from being a commercial product with all the vested interests that
: business interests bring.
Actually, in the case of ritual slaughter, the business side of it miliatates in favour of a humane-as-possible slaughter process. If doubts were cast upon the extent to which the slaughter methods of a Kosher or Halal abbatoir were humane, they would go out of business, because they would lose their certification, and no-one would buy their meat.
: > Inhumane slaughterhouses are an offence against the religious
: > sensiblities of both Jews and Muslims, which is why we don't have
: > them.
: I simply don't believe it. Observers of religious slaughter have reported the same indications that animals may be consious as they bleed to death.
Which observers? Show me the evidence.
: > It is rather disappointing to read racist lies based on ignorance on
: > the McSpotlight pages, and even more disappointing to read that they
: > are a view held by McSpotlight itself.
: It is disappointing to be accused of racism when I am speaking out against specism. My views do not represent McSpotlights views. My views on this subject comes from various sources including the Jewish Vegetarian Society. And please don't make the mistake to think that I can speak for McSpotlight. No one person can speak for McSpotlight. The international network of volunteers that make up McSpotlight hold various opinions and no one person can speak for the rest.
Granted. I withdraw my accusation that McSpotlight holds racist views. Sadly, I cannot withdraw my accusation that you do, even if you do not understand that you do, and even if you do not understand why it is that you do.
By the way, if the Jewish Vegetarian Society holds the view that Kosher slaughter methods are inhumane, they too are holding a racist position - they come (as do I) from a culture with a long tradition of self-hatred. Torquemada was Jewish, and a hundred years ago a guy (Jewish) called Otto Weininger actually committed suicide because he was an anti-semite and hated himself.
