Day 147 - 04 Jul 95 - Page 03
1 interlocutory applications once the trial has started; they
2 are all part of the decision-making process in the trial
3 itself?
4
5 MS. STEEL: Yes. The trial has started, so it is entirely
6 different to pretrial interlocutory matters. Particularly,
7 a number of the things have only come up specifically
8 because of matters which have been raised in the course of
9 evidence or other proceedings during open court.
10
11 MR. MORRIS: It is our understanding that -----
12
13 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Has Ms. Steel finished? I think, on
14 something like this, it is easier for me if each one of you
15 puts your arguments separately.
16
17 MR. MORRIS: I have only one point to emphasise in all that, the
18 test being that to hear a matter in open court would defeat
19 the ends of justice. My understanding is that the word
20 "defeat" is not lightly used in the White Book, and that
21 the obligation is on the Plaintiff to show how any matter
22 which they want public excluded from hearing would defeat
23 the ends of justice; not interfere with or scratch or
24 complicate, or whatever, but they have to show how it would
25 defeat the ends of justice.
26
27 Even in a case where there is a jury, the jury can be
28 removed from the legal arguments, but the public remain;
29 the public are not removed, the public have the right to
30 hear the full trial once it has started.
31
32 So we apply for the hearings to go back into open court.
33 Thank you.
34
35 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, of course, the question is whether these
36 matters are or are not interlocutory. May I, first of all,
37 draw your attention, please, to -----
38
39 MR. JUSTICE BELL: You oppose this, do you? Because I am
40 entirely relaxed; it matters not a jot to me whether it is
41 in chambers or in open court.
42
43 MR. RAMPTON: I am quite relaxed. My inhibition arises from --
44 really, it is connected with what I said to your Lordship,
45 I think it was earlier this week or it may have been
46 yesterday, certainly in relation to the question of the
47 transcripts.
48
49 MR. JUSTICE BELL: There is no reason why that should be in
50 public (sic) is there?
51
52 MR. RAMPTON: No. I do not mind.
53
54 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Both sides have the courage of their
55 convictions about it.
56
57 MS. STEEL: Did you say "should be" or "should not be"?
58
59 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I said there is no reason why -- if I said
60 "should be in public", I meant "private".
